2018-11-12 [DMFA #1882] Smash the system

[Tapewolf]

Well, he's very sure of himself, but I wish I knew how this was supposed to work, given that Beings are remarkably good at killing Creatures to begin with.
It will make it easier for them to take down Demons and Angels, they don't need any help taking down 'Cubi.   But none of that makes sense given that Biggs has a bunch of Demons in on this plan.
If Hizell and friends really are perpetuating this society to ensure they stay on top (a divide and conquer tactic which works very well even in our world), removing them certainly would solve a lot of problems.  But given that the weapon has so far been used on Beings to protect Creatures, there's got to be an angle to this that I'm not seeing.

[Eidolon]

It will make it easier for them to take down Demons and Angels, they don't need any help taking down 'Cubi.   But none of that makes sense given that Biggs has a bunch of Demons in on this plan.

It's possible that there's a fringe element of Demons who approve of Beings gaining greater power, due to the widespread Demon philosophy of valuing power over all.

If Beings become stronger, then Demons, too, will need to become stronger to survive (assuming some Demons continue to want to prey on Beings/some Beings continue to want to hunt down Demons, which is likely), thus strengthening both species.

[Genesis]

Well, Biggs gets point for enthusiasm Atleast, but he loses them right away for naïveté.

Even if he does make some kind of weapon that's super effective against creatures, short of killing them off it's a completely temporary measure, and as for the kill or be killed nature of the world, there is no way in hell he's changing that any time soon.

Hizell an Co making it worse or not, that's just going to happen anyway when you've got a world where 1 species lives 100 years with no magic and frail bodies, and the rest live 1000's of years, with magic, and are durable as hell.

In all honesty it shows a surprising amount of restraint that beings still exist considering that, from what we've seen, if they actually tried creature's could wipe them off the face of the planet.

TL;DR: Biggs plan has some glaring flaws.

[Tapewolf]

Even if he does make some kind of weapon that's super effective against creatures, short of killing them off it's a completely temporary measure, and as for the kill or be killed nature of the world, there is no way in hell he's changing that any time soon.
Hizell an Co making it worse or not, that's just going to happen anyway when you've got a world where 1 species lives 100 years with no magic and frail bodies, and the rest live 1000's of years, with magic, and are durable as hell.
In all honesty it shows a surprising amount of restraint that beings still exist considering that, from what we've seen, if they actually tried creature's could wipe them off the face of the planet.

It's not quite that black-and-white.  With Abel as leverage, Biggs can almost certainly get Jyrras to build a weapon that they believe can take down Hizell.  But he hasn't so far given a convincing argument as to why Jyrras should provide him with more than one of them, or indeed spare parts for a one-off.   They may be united against Hizell, but enabling Biggs to go on a Creature hunting safari is a much tougher sell - after all, Jyrras gets on better with Creatures than he does with Beings.

Biggs has enough stolen magic-free metal to produce a war's worth of ammunition, but he doesn't have Jyrras' industrial base to produce it... stealing Jyrras' technology and producing similar infrastructure will take years which they do not have, so he's dependent on Jyrras' goodwill for now.

Creatures vary a lot.  Demons are the most common, Dragons are arguably the most dangerous (ignoring the Fae who are non-native and immune to the weapon).  But not all of them live long, murderous lives.  Gryphons and Phoenixes are still Creatures, but have Being-like lifespans and tend to hang out with them.
For that matter, an anti-magic gun is extremely indiscriminate - Beings use magical shields too (see Glory in Abel's Story) and enchanted armour (Dan's robe) and this weapon will go clean through that far more easily than it through Hizell.

As for exterminating Beings, the big advantage they have is that there are lots of them and they breed very rapidly compared to Creatures.  Many crows can mob a larger predator and kill them - adventurers do that to Creatures and the chief reason nobody has objected to such vigilante killings is the fact that Demons don't really do revenge.

A possible strategy for Biggs might be "I've killed Hizell!  Stop treating Beings like dirt or you'll get the same!" but even that seems a little naive.

[Genesis]

Even if he does make some kind of weapon that's super effective against creatures, short of killing them off it's a completely temporary measure, and as for the kill or be killed nature of the world, there is no way in hell he's changing that any time soon.
Hizell an Co making it worse or not, that's just going to happen anyway when you've got a world where 1 species lives 100 years with no magic and frail bodies, and the rest live 1000's of years, with magic, and are durable as hell.
In all honesty it shows a surprising amount of restraint that beings still exist considering that, from what we've seen, if they actually tried creature's could wipe them off the face of the planet.

It's not quite that black-and-white.  With Abel as leverage, Biggs can almost certainly get Jyrras to build a weapon that they believe can take down Hizell.  But he hasn't so far given a convincing argument as to why Jyrras should provide him with more than one of them, or indeed spare parts for a one-off.   They may be united against Hizell, but enabling Biggs to go on a Creature hunting safari is a much tougher sell - after all, Jyrras gets on better with Creatures than he does with Beings.

Biggs has enough stolen magic-free metal to produce a war's worth of ammunition, but he doesn't have Jyrras' industrial base to produce it... stealing Jyrras' technology and producing similar infrastructure will take years which they do not have, so he's dependent on Jyrras' goodwill for now.

Creatures vary a lot.  Demons are the most common, Dragons are arguably the most dangerous (ignoring the Fae who are non-native and immune to the weapon).  But not all of them live long, murderous lives.  Gryphons and Phoenixes are still Creatures, but have Being-like lifespans and tend to hang out with them.
For that matter, an anti-magic gun is extremely indiscriminate - Beings use magical shields too (see Glory in Abel's Story) and enchanted armour (Dan's robe) and this weapon will go clean through that far more easily than it through Hizell.

As for exterminating Beings, the big advantage they have is that there are lots of them and they breed very rapidly compared to Creatures.  Many crows can mob a larger predator and kill them - adventurers do that to Creatures and the chief reason nobody has objected to such vigilante killings is the fact that Demons don't really do revenge.

A possible strategy for Biggs might be "I've killed Hizell!  Stop treating Beings like dirt or you'll get the same!" but even that seems a little naive.

True they Have some protection and enchanted stuff, but I still think they're doing as well as they are because of a lack of unity on the part of creature(also I admit, when I say creature I'm really thinking Angels, Demons, And Cubi).

And it seems like the whole "I've killed Hizell!  Stop treating Beings like dirt or you'll get the same!" Could backfire horribly, as I'm pretty sure that while demons don't do revenge, they're smart enough to realize that anyone that strong is a credible threat to their whole species, and needs to die, quickly. Or worse, they could come to the conclusion that being as a whole are to dangerous and... well if you've played mass effect, think of what the salarians and turians did to the krogan.

A threat like that proses a pretty good chance of uniting everyone against him, plus what happens once he dies? He isn't immortal, and what's to say anyone will pick up his crusade.

[Kazy]

I agree with Biggs, eat the rich.

[Shakal]

It may to an extent be a MAD-style gamble. Beings get pure-nonmagic weapons which can kill a creature as easily as a creature can kill a being, no matter their magical protections and abilities. Then with the dragons all killed as a show of force, getting other creatures to see being as 'equals' instead of 'cattle' should be simple.

Not saying I agree with this reasoning, but there is a reasoning to it.

[Jasae Bushae]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised given past comments by Biggs if his plan literally was 'kill all the creatures'

[Tapewolf]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised given past comments by Biggs if his plan literally was 'kill all the creatures'

If so, that's not a very good plan because the whole sales pitch he's using to get Jyrras to help him is to save creatures, to the tune of Abel and Dan.

'Kill all the dragons' is more in tune with his earlier remarks, would go down a bit less badly with Jyrras, and is also a more realistic goal.  Literally killing all creatures means combing the entire planet including the oceans and underground, plus the moons, and I think even an anti-magic gun isn't going to allow entry to off-plane sanctuaries such as SAIA.

[The One Guy]

The problem being faced is not the creatures themselves, but the system and that the creatures exploit to stay in power.  Putting beings on equal footing is just working within the system.  Not what Biggs wants.  On the other extreme, "kill all the creatures" is not a very realistic goal even with powerful weapons, takes out innocents along with the guilty, and is still, once again, perpetuating the survival of the fittest mentality.  I think Biggs is going more for the "revolution" option.

[Cassi-kun]

"Kill all Dragons" is, at the very least, one of the common goals between Biggs and Dee (another being to accumulate power for their respective families). Assuming Clan Leaders are similar in power to Dragons one-on-one, the hit on Owona may have been a test run on the resources they already have, especially considering that Dee hadn't been certain it could be done. Motive for killing Owona in particular remains unclear, my only assumption being that clan strength wasn't a major factor or they'd have gone after Jin. Or maybe it was a factor, and Jin's clan is too small.

[Eboreg]

"God created Man, Colonel Colt made 'em equal"

Allow me to introduce you to the principle of "Cost-effective Destruction" by providing two real-world examples. Which is more infamous: The 1,500 tons of bombs that killed 100,000 people or the 1 bomb that killed 80,000 people? The former killed more people but the latter was more cost-effective so guess which gets more exposure. To extrapolate it to the comic, Beings usually need to band together to be able to take on a Demon of any sort but if 1 Being could use a mass-produced weapon to kill Hizell, that seriously upsets the balance of power.

"Political Power comes from the barrel of a gun"

That brings me to my second point that I think is seriously overlooked and that's legitimacy of rule. In a much simpler (and suckhouse) time, rulers could gain legitimacy from martial prowess basically saying: "I'm the strongest man in the land and if you don't follow me, I can and will kill you." Uppity cousin/brother/random peasant who thinks he can do your job better than you? Kill him in a duel! When that no longer became an option thanks to a certain invention, I'm not naming names, rulers had to come up with more advanced methods of legitimizing their rule such as divine right, the social contract, the democratic process, and fascism. Furrae is still in a very much "rule by power" mentality as is evidenced by the amount of Demon-controlled cities and the zombie island story arc shows a perfect example of how "rule by power" very nearly caused an undead utopia to nearly get swallowed up by more powerful political forces (Or at least, a more powerful one). Kria wouldn't have been able to pull that stunt if all it took was one Being or Undead to kill her and as it happens, she was delayed in her ambitions by a crazy person who was really an "Only Sane Man" (not linking to TVTropes).

That's why I put more faith in Jyrras's weapons project, possibly nearly as much faith as Mab does.

[Dracologist]

I read this page today and all I can think is, "Yeah it's almost like a world where science and magic exist doesn't really work without some underlying rules.  Who knows, maybe they should equip their monster hunters with better gear than swords and spears or something."  Heck, if you etch together a few magic bullets and a sniper rifle there won't be anymore demons.  Three words, Anti-demon EMP Blast.  Ok technically that's like five words....

[Tapewolf]

Heck, if you etch together a few magic bullets and a sniper rifle there won't be anymore demons.  Three words, Anti-demon EMP Blast.  Ok technically that's like five words....

Interestingly, they already have sniping capability, with bows and crossbows.    As far as I can tell from the demonology, a Demon has amazing regeneration and the ability to harden their skin, but that ability isn't always-on.  If you can do lethal damage before they're aware, you'll have a dead demon.
For example, the arrow landing next to Abel's head in Abel's Story - if they hadn't recognised him from childhood they'd have sniped him, and that would work on a demon unless they had pre-emptively hardened their skin.   You've also got the stun-and-behead technique that the BoB tried to use on Alexsi.

As for anti-demon EMP, the soul-bomb Mehlata tried to use on Kria only failed by pure luck.

EDIT:

To extrapolate it to the comic, Beings usually need to band together to be able to take on a Demon of any sort but if 1 Being could use a mass-produced weapon to kill Hizell, that seriously upsets the balance of power.

It would, but the most likely response would be for other Dragons to put Beings to the same kind of extermination campaign that they used on 'Cubi.  Only the ones who have access to Jyrras' weapons would be able to defend themselves, and the manufacturing facilities would be the obvious target.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Beings aren't exactly the innocent victims here.  They tend to be just as evil and sadistic as Creatures when they get the chance, and there are more of them.  Powering them up won't solve the problem, it will just shuffle things around a bit and cause mass casualties.  And as others have said, that's still working within the existing system, not fixing the problem.

EDIT EDIT: Something that has just occurred to me, something that might work... is the fact that Biggs and Kria have ties to the Creature Council (who are, FWIW, already a little worried in case Jyrras builds some kind of anti-Creature weapon).  Maybe the plan is a to overthrow the Creature Council itself, and change official policy that way.  You would only need a couple of  the weapons to do that.

[Tuyu]

Well, he's very sure of himself, but I wish I knew how this was supposed to work, given that Beings are remarkably good at killing Creatures to begin with.

Divide and conquer?

First, take out the dragons. Everyone feels threatened by them, especially since they knocked the cubi down a peg, so you can get allies for that. Rely on your allies, and let them weaken themselves.

Then, when the dragons are dealt with, take out the demons. You can probably still get mythos and cubi allies; some of them like to fight, and others will want to keep the momentum going. Again, let the allies wear themselves out.

Then, the mythos. They're too diverse; they won't be able to organize against the inevitable betrayal.

And then the cubi. Fa'lina should be dead by then.  Maybe some of the other weaker clan leaders. And a few clans, like Jin, can potentially be left alive.

The phoenixes and angels aren't a problem.

(I don't know where the insectis fit into that extermination plan.)