2018-05-21 [DMFA#1839] - The Breaking

[Tapewolf]

I suppose this is an example of cultural differences.  If she'd just indicated that it was making her uncomfortable... but I suppose that's probably not the Demon way.

[joshofspam]

I suppose this is an example of cultural differences.  If she'd just indicated that it was making her uncomfortable... but I suppose that's probably not the Demon way.

Also quite a surprise considering that scene we see Dan remembering of Regina after she committed those murders. She seemed to be trying to convince Dan to come with her.

One would almost think Regina took what she perceives what Dan says and brutally applies it. But it seems like Regina simply is throwing in the towel. That was not expected by me.

[Tapewolf]

One would almost think Regina took what she perceives what Dan says and brutally applies it. But it seems like Regina simply is throwing in the towel. That was not expected by me.

True, but I suspect there are a few more twists and turns in this story.  It could have been a 60-something page side comic, after all.

[Jigsaw Forte]

I suppose this is an example of cultural differences.  If she'd just indicated that it was making her uncomfortable... but I suppose that's probably not the Demon way.

In defense of Regina:

If you're a woman and you think someone's trying to "trap" you into a relationship, you GTFO. If anything, Regina gets props for being direct and not overreacting (flipping out) or trying to sugarcoat the needing to GTFO (which only prolongs the perceived "threat" from Dan).

Now, how we go from this to a Dead Mom and such... that may change my opinion.

Right now she's calm. If she thinks she's being boxed in... that could change things.

[Hoodoo]

Seeing as Regina's panels are much more 'colored' at the moment, we can safely assume what she remembers is not actually that close to what happened. She's so self absorbed, she probably took Dan's youthful idealism to be some strange attempt at seducing her.

What she wouldn't know, is that Dan is at a watershed moment in his life, and probably casting about trying to solidify his opinions on creatures through interactions, which she will end up reinforcing very negatively quite soon.

It's a deluge of errors and misinterpretations.

[Sofox]

Honestly, I'm surprised people aren't pointing out how Dan is in the wrong here. They were having a friendly chat and suddenly he's talking all about race and it comes off like he's trying to convert her like he's some religious minister. What's more, its being hugely condescending that he's talking about race, when really nothing prompted the conversation. Dan has the best of intentions, but he's making the classic mistake of orating all his idealism without really appreciating the audience, or using the opportunity to critically examine how that idealism works in the real world. The irony is he'd have done far more for race relations if he'd shut up and just kept playing video games. Already a demon and proto-adventurer having fun together, no need to express excitement at the idea and make everything awkward.

And yeah, Regina's reaction is totally reasonable. A bit abrupt, but she never had any obligation to listen to Dan in the first place and she's simply reminding him of that fact.

It's all kinda funny, we all know this story is destined to go pear shaped, but I had no idea that it would be Dan to make the first bad move. Of course they'll be twists and turns before the day is out, but I'm kinda wondering if the whole situation would have been avoided if Dan hadn't tried to take a simple social situation and work it up more. Of course, I doubt any mistake Dan makes can lead to justifying Regina MURDERING people, but who knows, maybe it'll be like Matlida's Story where the circumstances of a death arn't what we initially imagined.

[Hoodoo]

And yeah, Regina's reaction is totally reasonable. A bit abrupt, but she never had any obligation to listen to Dan in the first place and she's simply reminding him of that fact.

Not.. really? She thinks she's being pursued romantically by a creep - someone who has a weird kink for seducing creatures.

Truth is, Dan isn't even looking in her direction. She's just self-obsessed and thinks his naive idealism must be related to her in some way, thus causing her to become upset and leave.

Yeah, Dan shouldn't be proselytizing his naive ideas, but it's pretty obvious what he was saying would not have lead a reasonable person to think they were being pursued romantically. Regina took a naive idealist and turned him into a pervert in her head.

That's why her panels are probably stronger in color here - they do 'not' represent the reality of the situation.

[Maril]

And yeah, Regina's reaction is totally reasonable. A bit abrupt, but she never had any obligation to listen to Dan in the first place and she's simply reminding him of that fact.

Not.. really? She thinks she's being pursued romantically by a creep - someone who has a weird kink for seducing creatures.

Truth is, Dan isn't even looking in her direction.

Except the only reason you know that is because you've been following Dan as a character independent of this event.  From her perspective, a stranger invited her to a fun outing that seemed safe (would have multiple other people around including an adult) and suddenly, completely unprompted by anything, she finds he's put her in a position where she's alone with him and he's bringing up how his dad managed to change his mom to be 'better' and then married her.  YOU know Dan's intentions.  Expecting her to is completely unreasonable.  She's been warned about people who try and convert creatures to a more being sensibility in an almost fetishistic way and she's now in a situation that's making her uncomfortable.  Her reaction is not AT ALL unreasonable.  And to suggest otherwise is kind of invalidating her feelings of discomfort because YOU know Dan isn't an asshole.  Which is something that happens to women a LOT.  And is super fucking irritating.

'Oh, I know Dan.  He's really nice!  He was probably just not saying what he meant properly, just give him another chance!'  Instead of 'yeeeeah, that was kind of inappropriate of Dan to do given the context of the situation, and he should try and be more considerate.'  The former puts the onus on the person feeling uncomfortable to suck up their discomfort so the other person doesn't have to realize that they come across badly, putting the uncomfortable person in an even more uncomfortable position and removing opportunity for the other person to grow and change.  The latter acknowledges that the persons discomfort is valid and the person behaving inappropriately should make a greater effort to be aware of what is and isn't an appropriate time, place, and way to have a serious discussion about racial politics. 

Is Regina going on a killing spree justified by this encounter?  No.  Is her deciding she's not comfortable with this and leaving justified?  Fuck yes.  She doesn't owe Dan shit.  He's some stranger she agreed to play video games with who decided to corner her and started discussing really personal and sensitive topics.  I'd have left too. 

I don't believe that someone has a right to never be uncomfortable.  But I do believe that it's not that hard to not creep people out in general and if you don't want to be perceived as a creep, don't act like one.  You can have good intentions and still be an inconsiderate jerk, and that's what's happening here.  Dan INTENDED to start a deep and thoughtful conversation about how creatures are perceived and relate to beings.  Dan ACTUALLY brought up race relations with romantic undertones (bringing up his parents relationship in this context implies he's thinking about her as potentially his own creatures to tame, hence her reaction) with a stranger after isolating her from the group against her knowledge and wishes.  I really can't stress enough how isolating her like that is a super creepy move.  SUPER creepy.  Creeptastic.  Dan was being creeptastic.  Good intentions do matter, but only to a point. 

[Shakal]

Dan - "Hey, so my dad solved racism, and made my mom no longer racist. Would you like to join us in our non-racist ways? I want to make all you creatures no longer racist!"

Yeeeeeah, this isn't actually as bad as even Dan version would make it look to Regina (Dan being a major doof in how he's approaching all of this), but I'd nope the heck right out of that situation too.

[Jasonrevall]

I find it interesting that Abel pointed out that SAIA teaches rape and that means that Fa'lina and Mab are just chill with a potential army of rapists yet this little bit here with Dan has people coming out of the wood works to call Dan rapey and a creep. Why are actual murderers and rape enthusiasts constantly being made to be sympathetic yet Dan is now being made to look like a creep? That's very concerning to me.

**Edit** To clarify this bothers me because it hits home with something I've had to deal with most my life. Dan isn't perfect  and HAS actually been a creep. However Fa'lina and Mab are okay with the honing of the skills of actual rapists and to my knowledge noone ever seemed to care. It feels too close to home because I've been told most my life that women can't be rapists and men cant be raped. It feels like here I'm being told that again with how quickly people are condemning Dan for doing a very minor thing out of ignorance while women characters murder people left and right and enable predators and get fanclubs for it.

**Edit2** to clarify again I dont have anything against how Amber wrote this page only with where this discussion in the forum has went to.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I find it interesting that Abel pointed out that SAIA teaches rape and that means that Fa'lina and Mab are just chill with a potential army of rapists yet this little bit here with Dan has people coming out of the wood works to call Dan rapey and a creep. Why are actual murderers and rape enthusiasts constantly being made to be sympathetic yet Dan is now being made to look like a creep? That's very concerning to me.

**Edit** To clarify this bothers me because it hits home with something I've had to deal with most my life. Dan isn't perfect  and HAS actually been a creep. However Fa'lina and Mab are okay with the honing of the skills of actual rapists and to my knowledge noone ever seemed to care. It feels too close to home because I've been told most my life that women can't be rapists and men cant be raped. It feels like here I'm being told that again with how quickly people are condemning Dan for doing a very minor thing out of ignorance while women characters murder people left and right and enable predators and get fanclubs for it.

**Edit2** to clarify again I dont have anything against how Amber wrote this page only with where this discussion in the forum has went to.

You raise an interesting point. I don't really have anything useful to add the conversation (that hasn't already been vocalised before by various parties), but I didn't want you thinking you were a lone voice against an army, as it were.

FWIW, I'm inclined to agree - whilst Dan has been creepy, that's all. Fa'Lina and Aaryanna and Destania, and, in fact, Regina herself, have idolised and normalised murdering and eating people, without anyone raising any kind of red flags here. It's interesting in how we view ourselves as a society that as long as this is all off-scene, it's okay. As soon as anything happens in front of us, it's a big problem.


I think the most interesting part of this is just what Regina finds an uncomfortable topic. For a group that prides themselves on rampage and murder, being uncomfortable at someone creeping on her seems out of character for me. Stabbing him and going on with the videogame, sure, but being uncomfortable about it? Not so much. Admittedly that's largely informed by her aunt's behaviour, and Kria might be somewhat unusual herself, so who knows? Definitely not I. And, of course, there's the fascinating alternate view of what Dan considers uncomfortable, as well.

Of course, I'm not exactly the most observant type in conversations; I can see me doing something very like what Dan does here, and not realising it was wrong until much later. >.>

[MT Hazard]

Is kind of tragic how Dan thought his mother had changed for the better after meeting his dad, given what we know of her and what he's slowly discovering, that she was and still is a monster, someone who considers her step daughter expendable and has frequently attacked and tried to murder Abel, for the sole reason that he is the son of the man who left her.

[Tuyu]

In defense of Regina:

If you're a woman and you think someone's trying to "trap" you into a relationship, you GTFO. If anything, Regina gets props for being direct and not overreacting (flipping out) or trying to sugarcoat the needing to GTFO (which only prolongs the perceived "threat" from Dan).

Now, how we go from this to a Dead Mom and such... that may change my opinion.

I see her leaving as "Regina the slacker".  Imagine Kria, same age, same situation. Probably Dead Dan at this point.

Seems to me, at least as Regina seems to see it, that demons have and are supposed to have an attitude of superiority to beings; "we're demons and we're not going to be beings, ever."

Hopefully, the next few pages will clear up whether what we saw as Dan's "recollection" was literal or figurative.

[Maril]

I find it interesting that Abel pointed out that SAIA teaches rape and that means that Fa'lina and Mab are just chill with a potential army of rapists yet this little bit here with Dan has people coming out of the wood works to call Dan rapey and a creep. Why are actual murderers and rape enthusiasts constantly being made to be sympathetic yet Dan is now being made to look like a creep? That's very concerning to me.

**Edit** To clarify this bothers me because it hits home with something I've had to deal with most my life. Dan isn't perfect  and HAS actually been a creep. However Fa'lina and Mab are okay with the honing of the skills of actual rapists and to my knowledge noone ever seemed to care. It feels too close to home because I've been told most my life that women can't be rapists and men cant be raped. It feels like here I'm being told that again with how quickly people are condemning Dan for doing a very minor thing out of ignorance while women characters murder people left and right and enable predators and get fanclubs for it.

**Edit2** to clarify again I dont have anything against how Amber wrote this page only with where this discussion in the forum has went to.

I can only speak for myself, but the reason I'm jumping on this particular topic isn't because Dan is being creepy, it's because someone implied that Regina's reaction was inappropriate.  Had people been instead saying that someone was wrong for being upset that SAIA teaches rape and murder I would have been equally bothered (this may have happened in the past, but I don't check the forum that often...  I just happened to be off work this week and bored). 

But there is also a bit of a... suspension of morality I suppose, when dealing with fiction where murder and mayhem are considered valid lifestyles by some of the main characters.  Even the profession that would normally be considered the heroes in this world are kind of racist murder machines.  Were you to get morally outraged by all of it it would cease to be enjoyable on any level.  So people gloss over certain things that don't hit close to home.  Frankly this isn't even simply something people do with fiction.  Were you to care about every instance of inhumane treatment of people and animals you would go insane.  You simply HAVE to be able to morally and emotionally ignore some things.  But Dan is the 'hero' of this comic.  He's the main character.  The moral center.  If his action isn't called out, that is justifying his behaviour far more than ignoring Aaryanna's bad behaviour, since she is portrayed as at least kind of evil. 

Now, as for male victims of rape, and female perpetrators, and that being glossed over in society, all I can do is apologize for making you feel that way, and say that I'm genuinely sorry for whatever happened that causes this to be a touchy issue for you.  I have a male friend who has been raped and been laughed at by his friends when he tried to talk about it.  This is unacceptable, and no one should ever feel that their suffering is invalid or less than.  I'm sorry that society doesn't respect male victims of rape or believe that females are capable of it.  That just really sucks  

[Jasonrevall]

I understand theres a level of disbelief we have for fiction I mean Klingon society in star trek is actually pretty silly when you deconstruct it completely but they're a ton of fun and playing them in STO is equally as fun. I just felt like being open and honest how I felt about people jumping on Dan for being so "overwhelmingly" creepy when other events showed some characters would have to directly support the idea of training people to be more effective at sexual assault yet noone really seemed to be upset at all. Everyone else was taking it incredibly seriously and it just caused a reaction in me to think about it on a more serious level and left me uncomfortable. Why is Dan getting dumped on for something he didn't even mean to do and Mab and Fa'lina get a free pass to just let people torture and rape others in a demiplane they made together? It just bothered me is all and I just wanted to voice another side to it.

**Edit** Also llearch I forgot to make my post to you thank you for saying something I was initially really worried that I put too much of myself out there and I was going to upset people but I guess I was just paranoid.

[Amber Williams]

For a start thing, I want to say I'm really happy that despite the serious nature of this discussion everyone has been really thoughtful and considerate in their postings.  I realize that this type of topic can easily make a heated scene, but you all are doing really great at posting your perspectives without it turning into accusations.  Ya'll are great.

I will say that a factor for the disparity is possibly just time and tone.  Abel's comment about the classes Destania taught which alluded to Fa'Lina allowing such concepts to be taught in the Academy in the first place happened in 2007.  So ten years ago versus the update that is currently happening right now and the focus.  I expect that had the strip of 10 years ago been the update, there would be a lot more conversation about that as well. 

When I did the story line with Kria visiting the undead city, Mehlata got a lot of negative ire directed at her in the commentary during her quest to destroy Kria.  Mehlata was a much more serious individual versus Kria's quirkyness.  That said, it doesn't negate the fact that Kria has no doubt done way worse things and will likely continue to do way worse things than Mehlata ever could.  (It doesn't negate the fact Mehlata was also doing bad to fight a bad as well granted)  But the main difference was in terms of tone people got to see first hand a repercussion of Mehlata's actions (the destruction of the gryphon carriage) where as Kria's many deeds have usually just been word of mouth referenced or a punchline at the aftermath. 

So there may also be a thing of it is just going to be harder to really empathy synch from a word of mouth reference of years prior versus something happening in the current with a lot of somber tone to it.


That that said, I don't think folks here are trying to dismiss the unfortunate fact that sexual assault on guys is a thing that does happen and how they have a harder time being taken seriously due to culture often playing up male sexual assault as a joke or something to be ridiculed.  An example could be the movie This is the End where one of the male characters gets assaulted by a demon and its played up for laughs.  Or your Highness where a character is assaulted by a minotaur and played for laughs.  It's sad, and uncomfortable, because if such a thing happened to a female character it would be considered the worst but it can be considered passable because it happens to a guy.  I don't like that.   In a lot of ways I have been trying to lessen the 'this is funny because it happens to a guy' punchlines since the time it was pointed out that Quil aggressively macking on Jacob would be less entertaining had it been a large guy carrying around a smaller ladyface.  So it has been on my mind while doing this storyline so I can hopefully navigate the comic waters to treat the subject with respect.

Sort of how Abel's story touches on very serious tones, Regina/Dans story also does as well and its likely obvious why the story was initially an option for a side arch.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

That that said, I don't think folks here are trying to dismiss the unfortunate fact that sexual assault on guys is a thing that does happen and how they have a harder time being taken seriously due to culture often playing up male sexual assault as a joke or something to be ridiculed.  An example could be the movie This is the End where one of the male characters gets assaulted by a demon and its played up for laughs.  Or your Highness where a character is assaulted by a minotaur and played for laughs.  It's sad, and uncomfortable, because if such a thing happened to a female character it would be considered the worst but it can be considered passable because it happens to a guy.  I don't like that.   In a lot of ways I have been trying to lessen the 'this is funny because it happens to a guy' punchlines since the time it was pointed out that Quil aggressively macking on Jacob would be less entertaining had it been a large guy carrying around a smaller ladyface.  So it has been on my mind while doing this storyline so I can hopefully navigate the comic waters to treat the subject with respect.

To be fair, all Jakob has to do to avoid being macked on is stay away. One could argue that him showing up in her area is him agreeing to the treatment - although that has some dodgy sidetones as well, and if _I_ can see them, you can bet they'll upset someone else, for sure. Maybe the appropriate solution is showing somewhere outside of Quil's area that he's not actually as upset about it as he's making out, and that in fact it's flirting on both sides, if somewhat inappropriate and questionable flirting to the average observer.

[The One Guy]

I would put my thoughts on Regina's reaction like this:
If your criteria for someone's actions to be reasonable is that they acted as they should have given the situation they were in, then it was not reasonable.  On the other hand, if your criteria for someone's actions to be reasonable is that they acted according to how they should have given how they could be reasonably expected to interpret the situation they were in, then it could easily be said that it was reasonable, though it does depend on whether you think it was Regina's fault for misinterpreting the scenario or Dan's fault for sending the wrong signals.

[Shakal]

I would put my thoughts on Regina's reaction like this:
If your criteria for someone's actions to be reasonable is that they acted as they should have given the situation they were in, then it was not reasonable.  On the other hand, if your criteria for someone's actions to be reasonable is that they acted according to how they should have given how they could be reasonably expected to interpret the situation they were in, then it could easily be said that it was reasonable, though it does depend on whether you think it was Regina's fault for misinterpreting the scenario or Dan's fault for sending the wrong signals.

To a large extent the responsibility of clear communication has to fall on the speaker, not the listener. Absolutely the listener should be trying to listen  fully and try to understand the intent of what was said instead of filtering what they're hearing to fit a pre-existing narrative (something which is neigh impossible to perfectly do), but the speaker is the one actually controlling what is being said, the choice of words, tone, context, even location and timing of the message being given.

Put perhaps more simply, if a significant number of other folks would have been uncomfortable with Dan's change in the conversation/situation, it probably wasn't reasonable socially for him to do those things. If Regina's reaction would be very unlikely and caused from experiences that were fairly unique and which Dan could not have known would impact this situation, then the shift might be considered more reasonable.

[Akisohida]

That that said, I don't think folks here are trying to dismiss the unfortunate fact that sexual assault on guys is a thing that does happen and how they have a harder time being taken seriously due to culture often playing up male sexual assault as a joke or something to be ridiculed.  An example could be the movie This is the End where one of the male characters gets assaulted by a demon and its played up for laughs.  Or your Highness where a character is assaulted by a minotaur and played for laughs.  It's sad, and uncomfortable, because if such a thing happened to a female character it would be considered the worst but it can be considered passable because it happens to a guy.  I don't like that.   In a lot of ways I have been trying to lessen the 'this is funny because it happens to a guy' punchlines since the time it was pointed out that Quil aggressively macking on Jacob would be less entertaining had it been a large guy carrying around a smaller ladyface.  So it has been on my mind while doing this storyline so I can hopefully navigate the comic waters to treat the subject with respect.

To be fair, all Jakob has to do to avoid being macked on is stay away. One could argue that him showing up in her area is him agreeing to the treatment - although that has some dodgy sidetones as well, and if _I_ can see them, you can bet they'll upset someone else, for sure. Maybe the appropriate solution is showing somewhere outside of Quil's area that he's not actually as upset about it as he's making out, and that in fact it's flirting on both sides, if somewhat inappropriate and questionable flirting to the average observer.

Agreed, Amber could always write a quick joke next time Dan is at SAIA:
Dan: Jakob, if Quil is bothering you, why not just stay away? Or tell her?
Jakob: Who says she's actually bothering me?

Or..you know..something actually funny showing Jakob does not mind and is actually enjoying/consenting to it by showing up? Because I can't do joke.

Granted, I have a strange outlook; back when I met my first room mate, I was 24, shy, quiet, and horribly anti-social. Her & her best friends were nudists & heavyset ladies and proud of their looks. Quite cute, larger women.
They used to hug me to their bosoms (because I am shorter than them, and was at the perfect height for a face-smush), and walk around shirtless in my apartment to make me blush and flail and stammer.

To an outsider (and to one friend visiting for the first time), he said it looked like I was VERY uncomfortable. I had to point out that I knew I could ask them to stop anytime, and they would. I was enjoying being embarrassed as much as they were enjoying making me embarrassed. And I knew they were trying to help me be more relaxed in social situations, by weathering awkward situations.

And I always got the feeling that was the same relationship Jakob/Quil had; They played it up because it amused them both.

[Tapewolf]

I'm leaving it open or up to Amber how Jakob feels about the attention at this particular time.  He's sensitive to fear and lust so he might still get a kick out of it at that level even if he doesn't like it.

Couple of decades after, however...
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11857607/

[Howl]

I find it interesting that Abel pointed out that SAIA teaches rape and that means that Fa'lina and Mab are just chill with a potential army of rapists yet this little bit here with Dan has people coming out of the wood works to call Dan rapey and a creep. Why are actual murderers and rape enthusiasts constantly being made to be sympathetic yet Dan is now being made to look like a creep? That's very concerning to me.

**Edit** To clarify this bothers me because it hits home with something I've had to deal with most my life. Dan isn't perfect  and HAS actually been a creep. However Fa'lina and Mab are okay with the honing of the skills of actual rapists and to my knowledge noone ever seemed to care. It feels too close to home because I've been told most my life that women can't be rapists and men cant be raped. It feels like here I'm being told that again with how quickly people are condemning Dan for doing a very minor thing out of ignorance while women characters murder people left and right and enable predators and get fanclubs for it.

**Edit2** to clarify again I dont have anything against how Amber wrote this page only with where this discussion in the forum has went to.

Mab cares more about her game than the players involved. I've said before that any empathy or care for the people around her is, in a word, fake. It's kind of a harsh interpretation to take, especially with a character that to an extent is the avatar of the writer (ignoring the literal avatar of the writer since comic-Amber evidently doesn't exist in continuity), but that's really all there is to it. If the well being of the people around her really meant anything to her, she'd just absolve everything herself and be done with it all, but she finds it more important that she follows the rules she devised than to actually take care of those around her by any means.

Due to her role in the story, as a godlike entity in comparison to all but other Fae, Mab must be a complete sociopath or the narrative would have no reason not to instantly crumble. That's the problem with godlike characters in fiction. It's very, very hard to justify them not just solving the plot themselves without writing them in a way that makes them a lousy person. Not a lousy character, exactly, but someone who would probably get socked in the jaw for how they act if they weren't in the position they were in and whoever's hitting them also had the full scope. In shorter terms, if a godlike character cares too much, the plot breaks unless there is an external force keeping them in check. For Mab, there is no external force, her game is completely internal, and she abides by its rules because she chooses to, and has decided that doing so is more important than the well being of those around her. Thus, I must believe that, in an internal sense, she doesn't care about anyone around her as much as they think she does. She's also demonstrated that the lives of those outside her circle mean about as much to her as that of an ant someone never noticed that they stepped on, but that's its own point.

I won't say it was intentional, but that's how I figure it to be. Mind saying what you think of that interpretation Amber, if you happen to read this?

[Hoodoo]

Except the only reason you know that is because you've been following Dan as a character independent of this event.  From her perspective, a stranger invited her to a fun outing that seemed safe (would have multiple other people around including an adult) and suddenly, completely unprompted by anything, she finds he's put her in a position where she's alone with him and he's bringing up how his dad managed to change his mom to be 'better' and then married her.  YOU know Dan's intentions.  Expecting her to is completely unreasonable.  She's been warned about people who try and convert creatures to a more being sensibility in an almost fetishistic way and she's now in a situation that's making her uncomfortable.  Her reaction is not AT ALL unreasonable.  And to suggest otherwise is kind of invalidating her feelings of discomfort because YOU know Dan isn't an asshole.  Which is something that happens to women a LOT.  And is super fucking irritating.

'Oh, I know Dan.  He's really nice!  He was probably just not saying what he meant properly, just give him another chance!'  Instead of 'yeeeeah, that was kind of inappropriate of Dan to do given the context of the situation, and he should try and be more considerate.'  The former puts the onus on the person feeling uncomfortable to suck up their discomfort so the other person doesn't have to realize that they come across badly, putting the uncomfortable person in an even more uncomfortable position and removing opportunity for the other person to grow and change.  The latter acknowledges that the persons discomfort is valid and the person behaving inappropriately should make a greater effort to be aware of what is and isn't an appropriate time, place, and way to have a serious discussion about racial politics. 

Is Regina going on a killing spree justified by this encounter?  No.  Is her deciding she's not comfortable with this and leaving justified?  Fuck yes.  She doesn't owe Dan shit.  He's some stranger she agreed to play video games with who decided to corner her and started discussing really personal and sensitive topics.  I'd have left too. 

I don't believe that someone has a right to never be uncomfortable.  But I do believe that it's not that hard to not creep people out in general and if you don't want to be perceived as a creep, don't act like one.  You can have good intentions and still be an inconsiderate jerk, and that's what's happening here.  Dan INTENDED to start a deep and thoughtful conversation about how creatures are perceived and relate to beings.  Dan ACTUALLY brought up race relations with romantic undertones (bringing up his parents relationship in this context implies he's thinking about her as potentially his own creatures to tame, hence her reaction) with a stranger after isolating her from the group against her knowledge and wishes.  I really can't stress enough how isolating her like that is a super creepy move.  SUPER creepy.  Creeptastic.  Dan was being creeptastic.  Good intentions do matter, but only to a point.

Regina is absolutely in the right in deciding to leave. She's uncomfortable, and noone has any obligation to remain in a situation they are uncomfortable in, especially for a stranger. I do not blame her for being uncomfortable in the least - Dan is bringing up serious societal issues most likely entirely because she is a Demon. It's weird, naive, and a deep cultural issue that probably would lead to flaring tempers in the BEST of situations.

There is absolutely nothing normal or comfortable about the situation Dan created - just like the racism he displays later on in his life, he creates his own obstacles in getting to know or deal with creatures as normal people. He's his own worst enemy when it comes to these situations, even if he doesn't realize it very quickly.

That said - not one other character in the entire comic has ever interpreted Dan's behavior so incorrectly. Were they right to leave? Yes. They felt uncomfortable for no fault of their own. That is where the leniency for her ends. Leaving, because she was uncomfortable, and probably never seeing that person again. That is everyone's right to do. That would be Dan's fault for messing up social conventions and driving her away.

However - by fully believing something that is in reality completely false, they have escalated a situation that did not exist to begin with. Even now, over a decade or so later, Regina is still casting him for a role he never once took - a creep that was trying to take advantage of her.

Later on in his life, Dan does 'very' similar things by assuming any creature nearby him is plotting to murder, maim, and destroy everyone close to him. In this sense, I see Regina's reaction here as very similar to that. Their biases color their perception, leading to an incorrect assumption. Neither of them are wrong to be uncomfortable - their life experiences guide them in that sense, and everyone has a right to be comfortable. However, when Dan goes around telling everyone else that these creatures really WERE plotting to murder or kill his friends when they weren't, even years later, he is the one in the wrong.

That is my sense of what happened here. Dan goofed badly and broke all sorts of social conventions, but that doesn't give Regina the right to even decades later cast him in a role he never took or even thought briefly about taking. At that point, it looks as ridiculous as Dan claiming Abel plans to eat Jyrass' soul.

[WhyNot?]

There is absolutely nothing normal or comfortable about the situation Dan created - just like the racism he displays later on in his life, he creates his own obstacles in getting to know or deal with creatures as normal people. He's his own worst enemy when it comes to these situations, even if he doesn't realize it very quickly.

...

Later on in his life, Dan does 'very' similar things by assuming any creature nearby him is plotting to murder, maim, and destroy everyone close to him. In this sense, I see Regina's reaction here as very similar to that. Their biases color their perception, leading to an incorrect assumption. Neither of them are wrong to be uncomfortable - their life experiences guide them in that sense, and everyone has a right to be comfortable. However, when Dan goes around telling everyone else that these creatures really WERE plotting to murder or kill his friends when they weren't, even years later, he is the one in the wrong.

That is my sense of what happened here. Dan goofed badly and broke all sorts of social conventions, but that doesn't give Regina the right to even decades later cast him in a role he never took or even thought briefly about taking. At that point, it looks as ridiculous as Dan claiming Abel plans to eat Jyrass' soul.

I'm sorry to interrupt this serious discussion with this aside, but since when has Dan ever been shown to be this sort of paranoid racist?

We've seen his first meetings with a number of Creatures (those Amazons, Aliyka, Pyroduck, Lorenda, Aaryanna, Matilda) between here and when he goes to SAIA for the first time, let alone all the other Creatures he's shown to interact with like the dragon he plays poker with, and not once is he shown to assume anything of them.

He dislikes Abel for the simple reason that Abel assaults him, threatens to assault him to get him to do what he wants and is, in general, a massive jerk. Their relationship getting better is as much on Abel letting himself be soft again as it is on Dan.

[Tapewolf]

I'm sorry to interrupt this serious discussion with this aside, but since when has Dan ever been shown to be this sort of paranoid racist?

A couple of times.  Page 651 is where he's terrified that Abel and Fa'Lina are conspiring to turn him into a monster.  657 is where he's explicitly describing anti-Creature paranoia, in a Creature-run city, yet.  In page 723 he promptly does the exact same thing again with the whole 'Potential Evil' spiel.
And, as Aary pointed out in their recent confrontation/start-over, Dan decided to go on a quest to kill the first Creature they came across for kicks.  (Page 203 : "We should go kill something!", Page 212 is where they consider a couple of Creatures and decide if they're evil enough to be worth killing).

[Nightmask]

That that said, I don't think folks here are trying to dismiss the unfortunate fact that sexual assault on guys is a thing that does happen and how they have a harder time being taken seriously due to culture often playing up male sexual assault as a joke or something to be ridiculed.  An example could be the movie This is the End where one of the male characters gets assaulted by a demon and its played up for laughs.  Or your Highness where a character is assaulted by a minotaur and played for laughs.  It's sad, and uncomfortable, because if such a thing happened to a female character it would be considered the worst but it can be considered passable because it happens to a guy.  I don't like that.   In a lot of ways I have been trying to lessen the 'this is funny because it happens to a guy' punchlines since the time it was pointed out that Quil aggressively macking on Jacob would be less entertaining had it been a large guy carrying around a smaller ladyface.  So it has been on my mind while doing this storyline so I can hopefully navigate the comic waters to treat the subject with respect.

To be fair, all Jakob has to do to avoid being macked on is stay away. One could argue that him showing up in her area is him agreeing to the treatment - although that has some dodgy sidetones as well, and if _I_ can see them, you can bet they'll upset someone else, for sure. Maybe the appropriate solution is showing somewhere outside of Quil's area that he's not actually as upset about it as he's making out, and that in fact it's flirting on both sides, if somewhat inappropriate and questionable flirting to the average observer.

Isn't that kind of like going 'she shouldn't have walked down that dark alley' or 'she shouldn't have gone to that party'?  It shifts the blame from the perpetrator to the victim, implying that they're responsible not the victimizer.  Why should Jakob have to arrange his life to avoid areas he'd otherwise want to be in because there's someone there who can't handle 'no'?  Maybe what's really needed is F'alina telling Quill she needs to back off and accept Jakob's not interested.

[WhyNot?]

I'm sorry to interrupt this serious discussion with this aside, but since when has Dan ever been shown to be this sort of paranoid racist?

A couple of times.  Page 651 is where he's terrified that Abel and Fa'Lina are conspiring to turn him into a monster.  657 is where he's explicitly describing anti-Creature paranoia, in a Creature-run city, yet.  In page 723 he promptly does the exact same thing again with the whole 'Potential Evil' spiel.
And, as Aary pointed out in their recent confrontation/start-over, Dan decided to go on a quest to kill the first Creature they came across for kicks.  (Page 203 : "We should go kill something!", Page 212 is where they consider a couple of Creatures and decide if they're evil enough to be worth killing).

I'll be honest, ever since I first read those strips about a decade ago, I always read those as Dan distrusting Abel for being Abel and getting mentally turned around when trying to express it, what with the page just before having him lose focus after Matilda makes him see the honest bit of honest jerk, and coming to the wrong conclusion.

I also read Dan's worry about being racist as less what he feels and more what he worries he's become. I feel that if he was actually like that it would've shown up when Jy invited a Demon to live with him or when Aary tried to kill him. Dan unreservedly forgives her and, kinda like they've done now, decides on a fresh start with their later differences coming from Aary at that time being the Richard, 'let me detail all the horrible stuff I'd like to do but can't because of outside forces whilst not realizing it upsets people', of DMFA. ('Then you can tear her apart limb by limb using only your wings, feeding off her terror and pain!' Page 386)

I think it's a bit of an over-reaction to read the 200-era pages like they're about to bushwhack the first guy they see. After-all the very next panel Dan specify's that he means something along the lines of 'saving a village or stopping an evil force'. The following pages have Dan as the guy pointing out that what they see aren't threats and he takes no part in the Aary business, that's all Merlitz.

Though if you want to make an argument for Merlitz being not great, I think there's some decent evidence for that. I mean, when the story you cling to has you trying to murder someone whilst calling them evil based on nothing, it does set off some warning bells.

[Tapewolf]

I'll be honest, ever since I first read those strips about a decade ago, I always read those as Dan distrusting Abel for being Abel and getting mentally turned around when trying to express it, what with the page just before having him lose focus after Matilda makes him see the honest bit of honest jerk, and coming to the wrong conclusion.

I also read Dan's worry about being racist as less what he feels and more what he worries he's become. I feel that if he was actually like that it would've shown up when Jy invited a Demon to live with him or when Aary tried to kill him.

True.  Lorenda is the bit that's most difficult to square with the rest of it, though if you think about it, it might be because she could pass as a Being.  If she'd have had full-fledged demon wings from day one, he might not have taken it so well.  With Aary, it's unclear how much of this is Dan being open with other races, and how much of it is the conflict-avoidance thing with his "don't fight 'cubi" directive.  It has been remarked, though not explicitly in the comic itself, that some of Abel's own jerkishness is because he has had the exact same fear of Dan, that he'll grown into a monster.

As occasionally mentioned, the starting point for Richard was "Dan, if Destania had brought him up in her own image".  But that was too horrific so it got toned down a bit.

[The One Guy]

Regina is absolutely in the right in deciding to leave. She's uncomfortable, and noone has any obligation to remain in a situation they are uncomfortable in, especially for a stranger. I do not blame her for being uncomfortable in the least - Dan is bringing up serious societal issues most likely entirely because she is a Demon. It's weird, naive, and a deep cultural issue that probably would lead to flaring tempers in the BEST of situations.

There is absolutely nothing normal or comfortable about the situation Dan created - just like the racism he displays later on in his life, he creates his own obstacles in getting to know or deal with creatures as normal people. He's his own worst enemy when it comes to these situations, even if he doesn't realize it very quickly.

<snip>

Was Regena right to leave?  Perhaps, but what she did wrong (in addition to what you bring up later in your post) was send the wrong message about her leaving.  Instead of implying "You're making me uncomfortable pulling me aside to discuss such serious issues so soon after we met," she instead left essentially implying "I reject your ideals and am not willing to listen to your justifications for them."  I feel that this (in addition to her later actions, of course) is part of what lead to Dan developing racist tendencies in the first place.  After all, the ideals he's trying to share in the first place are that of Beings and Creatures getting along.

Of course, as mentioned, her actions were due to misinterpreting the situation, but see my previous post for my thoughts about that.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

To be fair, all Jakob has to do to avoid being macked on is stay away. One could argue that him showing up in her area is him agreeing to the treatment - although that has some dodgy sidetones as well, and if _I_ can see them, you can bet they'll upset someone else, for sure. Maybe the appropriate solution is showing somewhere outside of Quil's area that he's not actually as upset about it as he's making out, and that in fact it's flirting on both sides, if somewhat inappropriate and questionable flirting to the average observer.

Isn't that kind of like going 'she shouldn't have walked down that dark alley' or 'she shouldn't have gone to that party'?  It shifts the blame from the perpetrator to the victim, implying that they're responsible not the victimizer.  Why should Jakob have to arrange his life to avoid areas he'd otherwise want to be in because there's someone there who can't handle 'no'?  Maybe what's really needed is F'alina telling Quill she needs to back off and accept Jakob's not interested.

I'm not sure I fully disagree with your point, but "she shouldn't have walked down that dark alley" kinda gets my response of "well, I'm a guy, and I wouldn't have walked down that dark alley, either". I'm not sure we're not comparing apples and oranges, I mean.

I guess it's more complex a situation than I would have expected. Which is a shame, because it's supposed to be a fun comic, right? :-/