Cryptology 101

[Brunhidden]

well, unless i pull the mother of all theradomancy my 'demonology 101' thread is so far beyond the grave the stench could peel paint.

why not start a newish version? seems like nobody used it for demonology (i was supprised, i thought you guys were cubi nuts) and mostly asked miscilanious cryptology questions so this will be a more appropriate name.

whats cryptology? cryptology is the study of anythign which cannot be proven or disproven, and includes cryptozoology (lock ness, bigfoot, hodags, chupacabra, tazlewurms, skunk apes, ecetera), mythology, ledgens of not purely historical nature, demons, theology, arcane anything, and roughly 75% of anything pagan. ive had a very bored childhood with lybrary acess, i know all kinds of freaky things so dont be afraid to ask anything.


i await the first question.

I don't need no doctor

But I need something to kill the pain

Don't know what I'm after

But the pressure driving me insane

Searching for a differnt ride

Had a funny feeling I can't hide

Hey, Hey, Do the Zombie Stomp

Why can't they just let me be

Alone without the misery

Hey, Hey, Do the Zombie, Zombie Stomp

Flirting with disaster

Mornign after killing me again

Hiding from the laughter

And the demons dancing round my brain

Always dancing on thin ice

I guess I'll have to pay the price

Hey, Hey, Do the Zombie Stomp

Thinking how it could have been

If I had never let them in

Hey, Hey, Do the Zombie, Zombie Stomp

[Zedd]

Alrights heres one for you Dr. Abraham Van Helsing Vampires...Why are most stamped out and one is know to be a vegian...Duckula is his name and only one heir is found...Char of mine but neverless...Why is it seem that most people liek to input that the jacklope is the one the critters that seem to lure minds and such...Yet we knwo well its a hoax or is it?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Should I mention Bunnicula, as a counter-thesis to Count Duckula? And, probably, Count Homogenised....

[Damaris]

I'm okay with you bumping the Demonology thread back up at some point.

[Netami]

Bermuda Triangle, go go.

[superluser]

Well, I hate to pile on, but what exactly is the difference between a lilith, the Lilith from the Alphabet of Ben Sira, and lilin?

Here's what I know.  A lilith is a demon-type creature in Middle-Eastern mythology.  The term was borrowed into Hebrew, where it seems to refer to a succubus-type creature.  In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) there is exactly one reference to a lilith.  In the Talmud, there are various references to lilith (liliths?  lilithim?), including one where Adam is said to have children by one.  These children are called lilin.

Fast forward to The Alphabet of Ben Sira.  It contains the famous reference to a woman known as Lilith who was Adam's first wife.  She left the Garden of Eden because she would not lie below Adam.

This would seem to indicate that she's not a succubus, which is formed from sub- + cubare: ``to lie beneath.''

So here come the questions:  Does that mean that Lilith from Ben Sira is a typical lilith in not wanting to lie beneath?  How do lilin differ from a lilith?  And how does a lilith differ from a succubus/incubus?

[Brunhidden]

Why is it seem that most people like to input that the jacklope is the one the critters that seem to lure minds and such...Yet we know well its a hoax or is it?

the jackalope is pretty much entirely a tall tale from those who settled the western areas of the north American continent, specifically the great plains. the north woods had its own list of joke myths which included the wild blue yonder falcon and the fur bearing trout. any 'jackalope' you see is, was, and always will be a rustic joke which found its origins in how Europeans thought American animals were slightly strange and novel.

the story behind a jackalope was that it was good luck to see, very tasty, its milk was high in vitamin P which is normally found in low concentrations in watermelon and beer, and for some unknown reason should be kept away from barmaids. some places (I'm ashamed to say i know this firsthand) actually sell jackalope licences which entitle the owner to hunt jackalopes...mysteriously enough the season in which you may hunt them is unspecified

Bermuda Triangle, go go.

rather broad question, but ill give it a shot.

ahem, the Bermuda triangle is a rough border of a specific section of water in the Caribbean region. supposedly 'strange things' happen here, which i shall list in some detail

1- strange lights in the sky
2- malfunctioning radios and spinning compasses
3- disappearance of ship crew yet ship found unharmed
4- complete disappearance of ship
5- complete disappearance of planes

the Bermuda triangle was first documented by the log kept by Christopher Columbus in his exploratory trek to the Americas. although it would be decades before this region would get its name old Chris described nights where very bright lights moved in the sky, the compasses malfunctioned and would occasionally spin erratically, and general feelings UFO uneasiness in the crew. many historians thank their respective dieties for the extremely detailed ships logs that everyone seemed to keep during this era, which even allow us today to create maps of hurricane patterns back well over a hundred years, and don't doubt for a minute that Chris and his crew saw SOMETHING.

for the next several decades sailing ships continued to venture to and from the Americas, the more superstitious sailors eventually giving the location its name after some of its characteristic disappearances started to happen. public awareness however peaked during the world wars when the navy and airforce lost very expensive ships and planes- being far more inclined to investigate then the crew of a clipper ship or even a modern fishing fleet. after finding no sign of the ships, no sign of the crew, and no wreckage on the seabed, people began to get a lot more spooked and took this more seriously.

currently there are many seafarers who thing the whole mess is just a bunch of bovine excrement, while others wouldn't sail there if you offered them their weight in gold. explanations exist, but differ and lack some credibility

1- the lights are spaceships, aliens do something or other to random people. not very credible, essentially on par with saying "wizards did it"

2- secret navy experiments. slightly more credible, but really really vague and does not address colonial era ships logs reporting lights and spinning compasses

3- the location is an anomaly caused by the magnetic field of the earth, similar to wonder spots' where the earths gravity is at an angle to 'down' and you can coax water to flow up an incline. this is more credible, and opens up a world of questions about what we know of electromagnetism. it also explains why modern era ships and planes such as those during the world wars dissapeared more frequently then the old wooden ones or the modern ones. possibly the reliance on specific navigational equipment was a fault whereas today most everything is operated by magnetically shielded microchips and monitored from satelite.

4- its the legendary west pole. i dunno, pick up an original copy of the adventures of Winnie the pooh for more details on this one

Well, I hate to pile on, but what exactly is the difference between a Lilith, the Lilith from the Alphabet of Ben Sira, and lilin?

Here's what I know.  A Lilith is a demon-type creature in Middle-Eastern mythology.  The term was borrowed into Hebrew, where it seems to refer to a succubus-type creature.  In the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) there is exactly one reference to a Lilith.  In the Talmud, there are various references to Lilith (liliths?  lilithim?), including one where Adam is said to have children by one.  These children are called lilin.

Fast forward to The Alphabet of Ben Sira.  It contains the famous reference to a woman known as Lilith who was Adam's first wife.  She left the Garden of Eden because she would not lie below Adam.

This would seem to indicate that she's not a succubus, which is formed from sub- + cubare: ``to lie beneath.''

So here come the questions:  Does that mean that Lilith from Ben Sira is a typical Lilith in not wanting to lie beneath?  How do lilin differ from a Lilith?  And how does a Lilith differ from a succubus/incubus?

valid question, simple answer. they're all the same Lilith.

supposedly when Yahweh created Adam from clay he did not create eve on the first try, he first created Lilith. Lilith however proved to be what we today would call an abomination, she wasn't really human and was a very cold hearted being. after being cast out from eden she was supposedly exiled to other lands where she met other...for lack of a better word ill call them people. when the big man tried the second time he made sure to use something that was already proven to work and ripped a rib out of Adam instead of starting that whole mess again.

later, Kane and Abel (the first sons of Adam and eve for those of you who are theologically deprived) came to be, and in an amazing display of envy and wrath Kane killed his own brother. this was by far the most appalling thing imagineable, before then there had never been such a thing as a dead human. to punish Kane a mark was put upon his forehead- he would live forever and bear witness to the cruelties of mankind, the good would not dare touch him and the wicked would know him as one of their own. after his own banishment Kane and Lilith bonded, not really being able to marry but it was close enough.

the children of Kane and Lilith were known as the first succubi, an intresting notion raising the question wether succubi and incubi were demons from the abyss or living 'humans'. it was stated that Lilith gave birth to a hundred children a day...but it never said how long this carried on or how many actually survived.

whatever children there survived were called 'children of lilith' or 'lilliths' by some of the lands in the middle east, particularly Persia and whats now turkey. in later years the name succubus and its reciprocal incubus replaced reference of Lilith.

in later centuries the same Lilith was whispered to kidnap the children of the 'sons of adam', the reason given was that her own icy womb would bear nothing pure or good. missing children, cradle death, and the occasional infant terrified for its life was blamed on Lilith trying to claim a child for her own.

after considering all this also consider that Kane and Lilith are supposedly 'immortal' in the sense that they wont die unless killed. in theory they're still out there somewhere if the scriptures be true.

bring me not news of death, bring me not tidings of sorrow. tell me not tales of fear, give me not whispers of grief. this land is cursed enough as it is and darkness be its ruler, ill not have you make it worse.

[/glow]

[superluser]

the children of Kane and Lilith

Oh, that's fascinating!  Does that mean that Grendel was a descendant of Lilith?

[Brunhidden]

the children of Kane and Lilith

Oh, that's fascinating!  Does that mean that Grendel was a descendant of Lilith?

The geneology of Grendel (translation 'the grinder', Grendel was born with bad dreams and ground his teeth constantly) is largely unknown other then his swamp dwelling mother. Ive heard the concept that Grendel is a 'child of kane' before but this is tandemount to those who think that vampires are 'kaneites' or somesuch.

Grendel is what is known as a 'Troll'. i would assume youve heard of them but know little about them. the word troll translates to something along the lines of 'overly agressive' and it needs to be stated that trolls used to be humans. long long long long LONG ago humanity went through a period of selective breeding when everyone was still living in caves and huts so rude they were downright offensive- those who could not fit into society safely were outcast. those who were to agressive, rowdy, impulsive, and greedy were called trolls and it seems they eventually had a breeding (specifically the inbred kind of breeding) population in exile (the theory stands that physical deformities also became 'dwarves', while those who were cowardly and self serving became the incredibly short lived race of 'goblins' which dissapeared form folktales somewhere around the twelfth century). in scandinavian lore trolls pop up all the time, and they make guest appearances through most of europe, for some reason scandinavian trolls were rumored to turn to stone in sunlight or thier skin 'cracked' when sunlight touched them...but this sounds a bit fancifull.

trolls throughout the world share some common features- theyre butt fugly, strong, agressive, and have a nasty balance of being mean and cunning. while rarely being smart trolls have appeared in many legends as crafting wonderous items almost on par with the marvels of the dwarves, specifically swords of unsurpassable sharpness. the concept that trolls are big is less stable ground, some have been said to be the size of normal humans, or even shorter, while others are nearly as tall as medium sized pine trees (legends of trolls the size of hills and mountants are obviously embellished, falling under the category of the frost giants found in norse mythology).

so if you find a troll on a forum, let some daylight through them, and if you find one elsewhere give it a great big hug and try not to look tasty

SOUND OFF!
one two
SOUND OFF!
many lots
I DUNNO BUT I HEAR
unno butt hair
IT REALLY HARD TO RHIME AND MARCH
tilly art who're me darch

[/glow]

[Netami]

I read somewhere that Lilith was made but she was too dominant. Basically, she and Adam were going at it and she wanted to be on top and he didn't like that idea. Neither did God, apparently, and he cast her out for being too dominant. So thus Eve was made, to be a subservient wife. So I think it sort of fuses the two ideas of "lie beneath" and the casting out, eventually leading to Kane.

I swear I read that somewhere credible... (at least as credible as old jewish myths go). Also you're supposed to recite three angel names after a child is born to protect it from Lilith, so that ties in with the cradle-death, infant death explanation you gave.

Lilith has always interested me, for some reason.

[Brunhidden]

the concept was that lilith thought herself adams superior, not his equal. to be quite frank its things like people reading that and saying "god wants women to be on the bottom and men on the top" which makes christians sound nuts, like the ones who disbelieve in medecine or somehow decided the bible probibits cloth made from man made fibers. if you read too much into the old texts youll hear people proclaiming that certan kinds of locusts were safe to eat while others werent, ground meat was an abbomination unto god, vedgetables grown in a private garden was herasy, and it was OK to stone people to death for THINKING impure thoughts....while at the same time people who read this completely ignore accounts of jesus freaking christ himself attending the wedding of a good male friend of his to another male and blessing thier union.

lilith was an abomination because she thought herself superior to adam, outside the laws of her creator, and generally being a really scary female dog. keep in mind this supposedly happened before the whole fruit incident (not an apple, the forbidden fruit has its own name that i have forgotten....i think it starts with a 'Q') so adam at the time did not know good from evil, was quite frightened by the mean lady who screamed, and was little more then an innocent puppet.

for more about the whole fruit thing i would suggest reading the opening chapter of "good omens" written by neil gaimen and terry pratchett. not the whole book nessicarily (though its quite enlightening and funny) but at least the opening.

Propher who? oh, that guy. if i remember correctly he spent some years in the desert, ate some funny coloured mushrooms, and drank what he squeesed from lizards. sorry to say ive never spoken to him in his life, i apologise for that makeing the whole 'scripture' thing Brutha.

[/glow]

[superluser]

Ive heard the concept that Grendel is a 'child of kane' before but this is tandemount to those who think that vampires are 'kaneites' or somesuch.

Well, I've got to disagree with you there.  In Beowulf itself, it makes it pretty clear that Grendel is a child of Cain:

I

Grendel, they called him, this grim spoiler, a demon who prowled the dark borderlands, moors and marshes, a man-eating giant who had lived in a lair in the land of monsters ever since God had outlawed him along with the rest of the line of Cain.  Abel's murder had angered the Lord, who avenged that deed of violence on Cain, driving him far from the dwellings of men.  Spooks and spirits are spawned from his seed, elves and goblins and evil ghouls and those bold giants who rebelled against God, asking for trouble.

XIX

Grendel's mother, a monstrous female, who mourned and raged in her foul den in the fenlands, the black bottomless abyss that had been her home since Cain cruelly killed his brother, his closest kinsman.  Accursed by God, and with that murder marking him, he fled to live in the wasteland.  From his loins sprang a monstrous progeny, among them Grendel,

http://digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/Literature.RinglBeowulf

I swear I read that somewhere credible... (at least as credible as old jewish myths go). Also you're supposed to recite three angel names after a child is born to protect it from Lilith, so that ties in with the cradle-death, infant death explanation you gave.

Well, as I say, a lilith is not the same as *the* Lilith.  Brunhidden confirms that *the* Lilith was a lilith, but the myth of *the* Lilith comes from the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a 7th-11th c. text which, while claiming to be a Jewish Kabbalistic work, shows very little in common with traditional Jewish scholarship.

It's important to note that the recitation of angel names would have applied to a lilith as a demon, not as a specific historic or legendary person.

[Brunhidden]

Well, I've got to disagree with you there.  In Beowulf itself, it makes it pretty clear that Grendel is a child of Cain:

I

Grendel, they called him, this grim spoiler, a demon who prowled the dark borderlands, moors and marshes, a man-eating giant who had lived in a lair in the land of monsters ever since God had outlawed him along with the rest of the line of Cain.  Abel's murder had angered the Lord, who avenged that deed of violence on Cain, driving him far from the dwellings of men.  Spooks and spirits are spawned from his seed, elves and goblins and evil ghouls and those bold giants who rebelled against God, asking for trouble.

XIX

Grendel's mother, a monstrous female, who mourned and raged in her foul den in the fenlands, the black bottomless abyss that had been her home since Cain cruelly killed his brother, his closest kinsman.  Accursed by God, and with that murder marking him, he fled to live in the wasteland.  From his loins sprang a monstrous progeny, among them Grendel,

http://digital.library.wisc.edu/1711.dl/Literature.RinglBeowulf

I swear I read that somewhere credible... (at least as credible as old jewish myths go). Also you're supposed to recite three angel names after a child is born to protect it from Lilith, so that ties in with the cradle-death, infant death explanation you gave.

Well, as I say, a lilith is not the same as *the* Lilith.  Brunhidden confirms that *the* Lilith was a lilith, but the myth of *the* Lilith comes from the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a 7th-11th c. text which, while claiming to be a Jewish Kabbalistic work, shows very little in common with traditional Jewish scholarship.

It's important to note that the recitation of angel names would have applied to a lilith as a demon, not as a specific historic or legendary person.

i find it rather inconsistant that juedo-christian scriptures would find thier way into beowulf in any accurate sense. at the time that beowulf occured christian missionaries were barely able to traverse the northlands without being driven off by the worshipers of the Aesir (technically the plural of Aesir is Ass, but im aware of the readership and want to limit the jokes somewhat when i say "worshipers of the ass"). on the historical side its intresting to learn that roughly half the men who took part in the grendel episode of beowulf had just 'converted' to christianity in the unique way that worshipers of the Aesir do...they worshiped Yaweh AND thier pantheon of Odin, Thor, Frey, ecetera while the other half thought christianity was for the weak and the allfather would not protect them in battle nor would the valkeries collect thier souls and escort them to the special afterlife which include getting shit faced drunk and beating people up.

thus i must contest to using lines of beowulf which specifically reffer to juedo-christian dogma under the impression that someone tried to christianise something which they believed was misrepresented by the hairy northmen who have a few hundred years of legends and carvigns on big rocks concerning said creature. while the saga of beowulf is pretty darned old (pretty darned old yes, but consider that christianity was a late commer. the northmen had been the viking kinda norhtmen who worshiped the Aesir for roughly two hundred years before this, and the germanic peoples south of there had been worshiping the Aesir and talked about trolls sinse before most of the mythology was even made {example- Odin the one eyed god was once known as Wotan, my ancestors worshiped him and his holy symbol was a bearded face with TWO eyes even though the oldest legends about Odin claim he got his wisdom by sacrificing his left eye to a talkign head who lived in a well, stabbing himself with a spear, and hanging himself from a tree for several days}) and remarkably unchanged i still find it hard to believe that anybody in daneland (daneland is where beowulf takes place if you didnt know, now known as 'denmark' if you can believe such a silly name) that long ago would reffer to a monster as a 'son of cain'

on the other hand i have heard the term "Son of Cain" used in other contextes, specifically ones where the meaning was not "dirrect decendant of Kain of biblical fame" but rather "Souless monster of the worst sort possible for a human to achieve.". to be specific i believe that it was used to describe Vlad Dracul and his son Vladimir Tepes (ironically junior here was briefly thought to have been the 'messiah' to bring prosperity and freedom....and in a way he did. despite being a nasty bit of a butcher 'the impaler' protected his lands from fierce the invaders the ottoman turks {sure, it involved skewering thier bodies on a forest of sharp spikes and having woodcuts made of him dipping his bread in the blood of enemies, but its way better then the ottomans would have done to the peasants} and the title 'dracula' did not mean anything to do with the devil but was a title meaning he was of the 'order of the dragon' {a collection of european nobles from both catholic and eastern orthadox faith determined to keep the ottomans from sweeping westward}). the term was also used to describe some modern era mass murderer but i forget which one, but clearly neither of theese three cases had any evidence to trace their geaneology back to the furst murderer.

in conclusion i will accept the term "son of cain" under the assumption that it means "like unto the first murderer" and not "weve got the birth cirtificate right here".




in regards to the lilith thing. if its lilith you can think of it as a child of lilith, same goes for lillin. the whole demon lilith thing should also include that you can be promoted to the title of demon if you really try your best, supposedly being a demon is worse punishment then being tourmented by one....dunno why, and im not sure if ill ever understand those monks who wrote that it was worse or what they based thier research on.

I fail to see why humanity sees the need to invent demons. humans are quite capable of conducting every evilthemselves.

[/glow]

[superluser]

i find it rather inconsistant that juedo-christian scriptures would find thier way into beowulf in any accurate sense.

Well, fair enough.  Beowulf (the story written in the Nowell Codex {*}) was written by a Christian author, and it appears to be the only written source for the Beowulf legend.  The Beowulf legend was almost certainly much older, and pre-Christian.

So the question becomes bifurcated.  The Grendel of the original legend was certainly not identified as a son of Cain, but the Grendel of the Beowulf-Poet certainly was.  So would that make Grendel a son of Lilith, too?  Anyways, I think the question has been beaten to death, so I'm willing to let it go.


{*} I keep wanting to call it the Cotton Manuscript...

[Fex]

What is the difference between an Succubus and a Incubus

[superluser]

What is the difference between an Succubus and a Incubus

I think I can handle this one.  A succubus is a female demon that has sex with men in their sleep.  An incubus is a male demon that has sex with women in their sleep.  The mythology states that they're actually the same, and--for example--that in order to reproduce, a succubus must have sex with a man, change sex and become an incubus, and use the male victim's...well, I don't want to go all NC-17 here.

Anyways, the etymology of each is sub- + cubare (``to lie below'') for succubus, and in- + cubare (``to lie on top of'') for incubus{*}.

I remember Reebok came out with a women's running shoe that they decided to call the `Incubus.'  It did not sell very well.  Beyond that, I don't know much.

{*} Hence my earlier comments about how Lilith, who refused to lie below, could not be a succubus.

[Brunhidden]

very close- while incubi and succubi were male and female forms of the same concept they are not actually the same thing...each just had the ability to masquerade as the other even though they were definately male or female.

think of them as being able to crossdress in peoples skin.

other noteable things about theese demons are that they always have distinguishing features that allow those not bling with lust tell its not a human.

1- chances of a naked woman with a wonder rack or a sexy stud with a baseball bat appearing without warning in your bedroom are so infantessimly small as to be even remotely believeable. unless people NORMALLY strip naked and fling themselves at you, this is a dead giveaway.

2- the genetals of theese creatures are unusual. for instance the...er...equipment a male has will not only be above average size (well, obviously they wont try to seduce unless theyre packing) but will also be of an unusual material such as horn/bone or covered in scales. females are a matter which its kinda painfull for anyone with male equipment to think about without whimpering a bit in the way you whimper when you see someone get kneed in the groin....ill leave that up to your own imaginations.

3- incubi and succubi often disguise themselves as loved ones or other people you know (far more believeable then anonomous sex object just breaking in through the window) but the illusion can be defeated easily sinse they have no way of knowing how exactly said person normally behaves. be suspicious if a naked sexy person cannot answer simple questions about people or events they should know about (unless thier drunk or really stupid under normal circumstances)


and yeah, the thing about genderswapping to aquire semen. its true, but its not to reproduce. according to the information i have on the subject the purpose of aquiring this semen was to knock people up while they sleep and get them into a  lot of trouble. yes, incubi were blamed sometimes for people who have never met having kids together, while its possible it was also done to 'expose' affairs where both participants took precautions that they normally dont when theyre dreaming.

essentially the whole purpose of 'cubi' was to throw structured humanity into the blender, tempting people to do things they wouldnt normally do, and making little evils seem okay and big evils seem little. as you can see television has made cubi obsolete

Well, when my boss replaced me with a clip art CD I really lost some of my self esteeem.

[/glow]

[superluser]

very close- while incubi and succubi were male and female forms of the same concept they are not actually the same thing...each just had the ability to masquerade as the other even though they were definately male or female.

That makes a bit of sense.

and yeah, the thing about genderswapping to aquire semen. its true, but its not to reproduce.

Well, then, what were the deals with Merlin and Caliban?  Weren't they the offspring of such unions?  And weren't they endowed with some special powers as a result?

[Brunhidden]

Well, then, what were the deals with Merlin and Caliban?  Weren't they the offspring of such unions?  And weren't they endowed with some special powers as a result?

you cant prove who their fathers are, even if you knew it was an incubus. mostly the concept of their fathers being incubi was poetic

Who cares about the truth, this is a MUCH better story

[Boog]

Well, I was wondering when we'd see the return of this! Alright, I've heard you mention the possibilities of goblins, trolls, etc. But what about Monsters? The minotaur, the Wendigo, Polyphemus, the Hydra, and all these others. It says the circumstances of their creation in their myths, but what are your views?

[superluser]

The minotaur, the Wendigo, Polyphemus, the Hydra, and all these others. It says the circumstances of their creation in their myths, but what are your views?

Well, Polyphemus the cyclops was in the Odyssey, which is one of the oldest narratives around.  Therein, he is described as the son of Poseidon.  The mother is also given as Thoosa, though (a) I have no clue who that is and (b) I never noticed that it was in the Odyssey.

The Minotaur is another Greek legend.  One of the interesting things about this legend is that a few years back some guy found a giant underground labyrinth which he said was part of some sort of bull cult.  Problem was, when his colleagues came out to see, the guy had ``restored'' most of the things referring to bull worship, making it nearly impossible to determine what was authentically ancient and what was this guy's imagination.

The Hydra was one of the burdens of Hercules.  When you cut off one head, two more would grow in its place.  The Wendigo, by that name, is from Native American lore.  I'm sure that Brunhidden knows much more than I about either of these.

[Brunhidden]

The minotaur, the Wendigo, Polyphemus, the Hydra, and all these others. It says the circumstances of their creation in their myths, but what are your views?

Well, Polyphemus the cyclops was in the Odyssey, which is one of the oldest narratives around.  Therein, he is described as the son of Poseidon.  The mother is also given as Thoosa, though (a) I have no clue who that is and (b) I never noticed that it was in the Odyssey.

The Minotaur is another Greek legend.  One of the interesting things about this legend is that a few years back some guy found a giant underground labyrinth which he said was part of some sort of bull cult.  Problem was, when his colleagues came out to see, the guy had ``restored'' most of the things referring to bull worship, making it nearly impossible to determine what was authentically ancient and what was this guy's imagination.

The Hydra was one of the burdens of Hercules.  When you cut off one head, two more would grow in its place.  The Wendigo, by that name, is from Native American lore.  I'm sure that Brunhidden knows much more than I about either of these.

the cyclops was said to have been two distinctly diffrent races- the greater and lesser. this particular cyclops was a lesser, as were many others who prowled the lands and often emerged from the woods to take controll of mills so they could demand tributes of food. lesser cyclopes were actually more common in myths and legends then we realise sinse most of the myths and legends didnt make it to be books or miniseries. the 'greater' cyclopes were quite rare, only really appearing as the assistants of the god haphestus and sometimes sent as his envoys to congradulate great deeds of smithing.

in olden times people frequently mistook elephant skulls to be cyclops skulls, sinse they had only one eyesocket. its not really determined if cyclopes were deific at all (the greek gods were blamed for many funky children sinse they had mating habbits which would make a mink farmer blush) but its possible they were just a subspecies of troll found further south or just the same race with missing eyes (eyepatches maybe, in over half the reffrences of cyclopes it is NOT specified that the one eye is in the center of the head. a rare birth deffect found even in humans causes an eye to be missing, to the point there is no eyesocket in the skull even)


i have no real background to proove the existance of the minotaur, as there arent any other similar creatures other then the goatmen...which for some reason are found both and only in the USA and greece. however the story can be traced back to ainchent crete- recently we think weve found it.

crete...to this day and probably forever we will know jack squat about it. why? unlike every other misunderstood civilization they cant deffend themselves from biggotry and propaganda because nobody has yet to translate cretian writing. so most of our information has to come from observations rather then old records. crete was roughly par with egypt in its heyday, but in egypt everyone lived in mud huts while they toiled to create palaces for te dead, while in crete the palaces were for the living. A standard of living unheard of untill modern times was found, virtually everyone had homes and could find constant entertainment to rival the roman colloseum. the entertainment? we dont have a name for it, but you could call it 'bullfighting' if you used the term loosely. two men would stand on the back of a bull with a cloth tying thier arms together, the object was to balance and stay on for as long as possible with the bull thrashing around. this sport was so popular that pictures of it were everywhere, images of bulls on every wall, pot, and coin. you couldnt go anywhere in the labrynth wihtout seeing bulls. the labrynth? that was the cretin city, a giant structure that included everything. essentially mash a shopping mall with an appartment complex and throw in some civic buildings, nobody had to set foot 'outside' unless they had to travel to another town or a farm or something.

but, thats about all it looks like we will ever know untill someone can translate cretin. some people have even suggested that the wonderous atlantis which was so technologically advanced was in fact crete.




the whendigo is probably the one i have the most information on- but most of it clashes. all they agree on is that the native americans of the northern forests all speak of monstrous beings they all name whendigo. what they say they are or what they do changes

some say the whendigo is a giant made of flint, whose eyes are deep pits of nothingness which light cannot escape.

many say that a man who survives the winter by eating the flesh of other men, and enjoys it, becomes a whendigo

a few say that mosquitoes were first made when a whendigo was chopped to a thousand pieces, and the original beasts sucked so much blood as to kill a man

most say that a whendigo is a spirit of ice and fire, with no leggs but burnt stumps and runs along with the wind dragging its victims at a frantic (and long, most stories state the distance between footsteps left in the snow increases to over twenty feet) pace till thier feet burn up from the running

alot say that the whendigo calls your name on the winter winds. only you can hear it, and it will continue to call untill you are driven mad and run out into the winters night.

the most common is a combination of both the last two, and has a helthy mix of wether or not its created by canibalisim. the point is that enough legends exist from enough diffrent people that its hard to say its a load of bull even though they dont agree.

thats the position i usually take- most any country in the world has stories of some form of dragon, undead, giant, talking animal, and other strange beast that also appears in far away countries theyve never heard of. if so many people in so many places all say something exist, and believe in it for so long its practically forever, chances are theyre not making it up. exaggerating maybe, but not making it up- if a man says his grandfather bested a fifty foot giant with three heads, i will l readily believe that he outsmarted a ten foot ugly brute even if i disbelieve a fifty foot man could live without snapping his bones like toothpicks. supposedly many of my ancestors lived back in the black forest, a land rife with ten to twelve foot brutes and far more strange things....and it explains why i enjoy being under bridges and simply love greek food (havent found anyone else who sells mutton or goat) or why my entire family has the impulse to hoard small 'treasures' such as gold coins and bad jewelry.

this is also why i wont touch the subject of the hydra. creatures which only appear in legends once, are unique to the point that only one sourse has information on them, and are a bit too incredible to have a working ecology....theese things i cant argue logically. so sorry, but i dont have any view on the hydra other then "if it is based on fact, that still must have been some messed up critter before they embellished it".

One of a kind is always special

[Brunhidden]

it seems that the original "demonology 101" had a brief life after i left

so, if anyone wants to re-state questions that were unasnwered or improperly answered, give a shout out ya hear?

There is a name for that kind of lie, its called 'hope'

[Alondro]

There is also a great flood myth is many societies, most with a Noah-like figure taking other people and animals aboard some sort of boat for safety after being warned by a deity, and a creation myth as well is almost ubiquitous. 

People traveled much more frequently than was previously imagined, and ideas were traded and mixed hundreds or thousands of times.  Let us not forget that Alexander went all the way to India because it was a known land, and it is almost a certainty they knew of China as well.  There is some evidence that Egypt could have traded with South-Central America at some point with the discovery of cocaine and nicotine in the hair of mummies using highly validated immunological detection methods and chromatography (the possibility of older hoaxed mummies remains for some mummy specimens which were only represented by the heads, but other have been proven genuine).

Dragon myths are too open to interpretation.  Dinosaur bones have been discovered for a few long time.  They myths could have come from stories made up from some wanders in the mountains coming upon these giant weathered bones.  The Oriental dragon seems to have an origin o the combination of several other animals into one mythical creature, those animals having a significance in imperial history (serpent body, rooster claws, dogwolf-like head). 

The reasons the stories of Lilith, the Jesus attending a gay marriage story, and myths like Peter slaying a dragon, weren't included in the Bible were due to those stories having very different writing styles and often coming from different parts of the world hundreds of years after the othe writings.  Much care was taken by the monks to omit any texts that were of uncertain or suspicious origin.  The story of Lilith has changed too much over time to be considered canon.  She was initially just a 'night demon', the story changing to Adam's first wife in late medieval Jewish legend.  It is likely she emerged as an adaptation of the Sumerian prologue to the epic of Gilgamesh, a female demon named Kiskil-lilla.  In the 9th century, Babylonian spirits called 'lila' were said to roam in the night killing newborns and pregnant women.  Only Isaiah 34:14 in the Hebrew Bible uses the word 'lilit', and it could either refer to the Babylonian demons, a screech owl often associated with vampiric tendancies, the older Sumerian Air goddess Lil-itu, or the legendary Lilith.  There is no way to know, since this is the only use.  However, since the verse itself is part of a symbolic prophecy of the desolation of Edom, it's very difficult to make a case that it refers to anything in a literal sense, regardless.

There is also one instance of Lilith in the Dead Sea Scrols: 4Q510, fragment 1 "And I, the Instructor, proclaim His glorious splendor so as to frighten and to te[rrify] all the spirits of the destroying angels, spirits of the bastards, demons, Lilith, howlers, and [desert dwellers...] and those which fall upon men without warning to lead them astray from a spirit of understanding...

Again, who or what Lilith is is never elaborated on and the name doesn't appear again in the existing parts of the recovered scrolls.  Instead, the text itself is in fact part of exorcism incantation, to a group "deeply involved in the realm of demonology," an exorcism hymn.

Now, the Talmud has several much more specific instances of Lilith, but the hearken back to the Mesopotamian version of the night demoness/goddess, even the descriptions are almost identical.  Further, in Erubin, it is implied that Adam had demon and ghost children with Lilith for 130 years after his banishment from the Garden of Eden! 

The modern context of Lilith as Adam's first wife didn't originate until The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, written between the 8th and 11th centuries BCE.  It's actual purpose is unknown, but is seems either merely a collection of folk tales or perhaps an anti-Semitic satire, as its content was considered highly offensive, though it was later accepted by Jewish mystics in medieval Germany.

Simply put, the story of Lilith is like most legends.  Its history can be traced back through various cultures that inhabited the same area and in which nomadic peoples had a long tradition of trading stories and religious ideas.  As we'd expect, the tale has different versions and the actual Lilith herself has undergone changes as time has passed.

Let us not forget that these stories are thousands of years old and have evolved over time from legends, fears and superstitions that man has fostered from the dawn of time.  It is neither surprising nor unexpected that so many legends are similar, given the scope of human expansion and the time periods involved.  Indeed, it would be very strange indeed if no culture shared any similarities! 

It could very well be that in 5,000 years, people will be discussing our ancient mythical belief in the gods Kirk and Spock, who taveled the stars in their magical metal chariot the Enterprise, fueled by the power of the warp gods to bring peace to the universe! 

[superluser]

Let us not forget that Alexander went all the way to India because it was a known land, and it is almost a certainty they knew of China as well.

Have you ever heard of the Takla Makan mummies?  3000 year old mummies from China.  But the bodies are clearly of European descent.  Fascinating stuff.

The reasons the stories of Lilith, the Jesus attending a gay marriage story, and myths like Peter slaying a dragon, weren't included in the Bible were due to those stories having very different writing styles and often coming from different parts of the world hundreds of years after the othe writings.  Much care was taken by the monks to omit any texts that were of uncertain or suspicious origin.

Alas, the monks often took too much care to `correct' difficult passages.  The best introductory work on this is probably Metzger's Text of the New Testament.  As an example, in Lk 23.32, there's a phrase ``And also other criminals, two, were led away with Him to be crucified.''  This was changed to ``And also two others, criminals, were led away with Him to be crucified,'' to avoid the implication that Christ was a criminal.

[Alan Garou]

Dover Demon for the win. That little guy manages to be cute and pitiful and disturbing all at the same time. I wish he would come back out of hiding.

[Brunhidden]

Alondro, i have no idea if any of that was even a question.

Dover Demon for the win. That little guy manages to be cute and pitiful and disturbing all at the same time. I wish he would come back out of hiding.

for those of you who dont know the 'demon of dover' was a phenomenon that happened in the mid to late 70s in massechussets. yes, it makes you think of the jersy devil, but JD was muuuuch older.

described as being about the size of a baby the 'demon' had a head about the same size as its body (melon shaped supposedly) and long gangly arms and legs complete with fingers. the creatures eyes were compared to 'orange glass marbles' and its skin compared to the texture of sharks skin.

to date thre were three reported sightings, although some others claim they caught a glimpse, none of which knew about the others untill after reporting. this is noteworthy because theese three sightings were on three consecutive nights. all three were by a roadside, and all three were described exactly the same with the one discrepency being the third sighting reported green eyes and not orange.

you can find sketches made by the three witnesses online, and probably will think "OMG! that looks like a kyoot little alien!" or something. fact of the matter is there was never an origin given, and we know nothing other then a physical description and the fact it was seen.

i await the next question

I think the people preffered a known danger in the light over a darkness populated by thier fears

[/glow]

[Alondro]

I know the Jersey Devil... she was governor for two terms!     *ba-dum-dum*

[Brunhidden]

well if youve been pregnant twelve times you KNOW the next ones going to be evil incarnate just to spite you.

Contemplate the wisdom of pie, know it, feel it, be it.

[superluser]

OK.  I got one.  Homo diluvii testis, A/K/A Andrias scheuchzeri.  Johann Jakob Scheuchzer found a fossil that he claimed was one of the giants that had existed prior to the Great Flood.  It turned out that it was the fossil of an extinct giant salamander.  This salamander species later shows up in Karel Čapek's War with the Newts.

That's about as much as I know.