2013/08/23 [DMFA #1422] - Now I want to meet those Mythos

[killpurakat]

They sound like an interesting bunch. I wonder, since some amphibians can change their sex to make sure there are always both sexes in a group (the big one being frogs, which most people know of because they were mentioned in Jurassic Park), if the Mythos are amphibious in nature.

Oh, and to the sickly Miss Mab, please feel better soon and we are all very sorry that you got so very sick! Drink fluids, sleep, and cuddle the bunny. (Cuddling pets can do wonders for your mood, if not your health.  )

[Lying Foo]

Hmm.

You know, I wasn't really wondering this before, but... erm.

How do I put this.

Well, the way I initially phrased it seemed somehow more perverted than just saying it, so I will: would such a Cubi (or the reverse) be able to have sex without sending up red flags?

[joshofspam]

I don't know about boring. But Fluffy was informative.

At the very least, where identity checks are much more comprehensive and not led by the stupider versions of BOB patrols, it would be harder for a cubi to keep up the disguise under long term scrutiny.

Get well soon Amber.

[killpurakat]

Hmm.

You know, I wasn't really wondering this before, but... erm.

How do I put this.

Well, the way I initially phrased it seemed somehow more perverted than just saying it, so I will: would such a Cubi (or the reverse) be able to have sex without sending up red flags?

I'm not Amber, and so I can't answer conclusively, but I'd say yes.

The main reason is that there are individuals whose genetics say one thing while their bodies say another. And I'm not speaking of hermaphrodites, but rather XY individuals who are morphologically female and XX individuals who are morphologically male. It does happen, although these individuals are always sterile.

In most of these cases, the internal organs are such that the individual may have residual influences from his/her genes (men with ovaries and women with testicles), but the plumbing is a bit different to accommodate this with the reversed outer parts, and aside from a doctor examining the individual thoroughly, there is no real way to discern this just by looking at the individual, even naked.

A Cubi can likely change his/her appearance and perceived gender, and make accommodations for that (something resembling a penis or vagina) for the purposes of sexual intercourse, enough to possibly fool someone. What is not as likely is the Cubi achieving orgasm, since that would require shifting whole nerve endings and erogenous zones around and it would just be easier to "fake it." And since the Cubi could control all aspects of the imitated sex organs, blood flow would not pose a significant problem to "faking it."

[Mischa]

See, this is why fae are way cooler than cubi!  They can turn you into anything they like! 

[Grey Wolf]

As a trans person with body-issues, I appreciate that the mythos who run the show take it seriously. Though, I wonder how they handle someone whose gender regularly shifts (bigender, trigender, genderfluid people, etc.), or someone who is unable to fully articulate their gender in the words we have available.

[Amber Williams]

When it comes to those Mythos, it would be a difficult situation because the process is not really a simple one and there are risks involved since it is ultimately altering someone at a very basic level.  And the more times it is applied, the more risky it would become.  They're able to do such a procedure once with very low risk, but having to do it again even to reverse it almost triples the risk factor of things going wrong.  Hence why they take it very seriously.

[Mischa]

Oh, come on, what could possibly go wrong with genetic engineering?

That aside... I'm somewhat amused that various mythos species seem to be the ones at the forefront of scientific knowledge (Jyrras aside).  We've seen one mythos species involved in space travel, and now another that appears to understand genetics, with the capability to manipulate genetic code on a large scale.  Makes me wonder if there's any mythos species investigating high energy physics or nanotechnology?

[Tapewolf]

That aside... I'm somewhat amused that various mythos species seem to be the ones at the forefront of scientific knowledge (Jyrras aside).  We've seen one mythos species involved in space travel, and now another that appears to understand genetics, with the capability to manipulate genetic code on a large scale.  Makes me wonder if there's any mythos species investigating high energy physics or nanotechnology?

I figure it stands to reason - a world which has magic may be able to see the underlying structure of things in ways which we need advanced optics and particle physics to do.  Chances are they know at least some atomic theory if they can cast transmutation spells.

[joshofspam]

Considering what patches are capable of and what Kria's pendant can do.

I'd figure it's been a long progressive step of improvement. Remember, Kria's pendant came with the warning of side effects. Speaking of this group of Mytho's, it might be as a race, they might be higher keyed to the inner workings of their bodies and have magic that aids them in it.

I mean, if Kria's pendent could hide wings and then Jyrras's patches can turn Dan into a Mow and both have several years splitting the development of the two, as well as no side effects for the other one. That's quite a bit of development between the two. And I wouldn't be surprised if those mentioned Mytho's would have had a part in developing the pendant that Kria uses.

That all being said, one can see through Kria and how her daughter's wings turned out, just what fooling around with your body with magical items can have.....side effects.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Well, the way I initially phrased it seemed somehow more perverted than just saying it, so I will: would such a Cubi (or the reverse) be able to have sex without sending up red flags?

Purely from a spectator point of view (ie, Ambaargh has already answered, so I don't have to ;-] ), I'd be very surprised if this were the case. After all, Aniz imitated Cid for several decades. If changing your form were to interfere, May would have noticed, you'd think. Perhaps once or twice you could get away with it, but over two decades?

[Lying Foo]

Well, yes, but Aniz was already male.  I guess what I'm sort of asking is "how external is external?"

[joshofspam]

Well, yes, but Aniz was already male.  I guess what I'm sort of asking is "how external is external?"

I'd guess just about everything on the outside. Look, feel, sound. The sense of touch might be effected by the density of the material your trying to imitate and what part you use, but it remains unaltered from the gender you actually are.

Their only limitation seems to be mass and the majority of their insides need to be left untouched or at least not drastically changed from their true nature.

Something else to possibly remember is Aniz used a magic to maintain that form from the fact he experienced pain when he shifted back. He put a great deal of effort into it. But messing with his outsides to an extreme caused him pain. It gives us a clue on what messing with your insides would be like.

I actually find it amazing how much detail he put into maintaining his disguise. He put real effort into aging with May.

[Tapewolf]

Something else to possibly remember is Aniz used a magic to maintain that form from the fact he experienced pain when he shifted back. He put a great deal of effort into it. But messing with his outsides to an extreme caused him pain. It gives us a clue on what messing with your insides would be like.

I have a vague recollection of Amber saying that there is a way to lock the transformation in place through some kind of meditation, which makes it a bit more permanent.  It's the sort of thing you'd do when you want to remain someone else for, say, 25 years, but the setup is much more intensive and time-consuming than a quick one-off (e.g. Merbel)

[joshofspam]

Something else to possibly remember is Aniz used a magic to maintain that form from the fact he experienced pain when he shifted back. He put a great deal of effort into it. But messing with his outsides to an extreme caused him pain. It gives us a clue on what messing with your insides would be like.

I have a vague recollection of Amber saying that there is a way to lock the transformation in place through some kind of meditation, which makes it a bit more permanent.  It's the sort of thing you'd do when you want to remain someone else for, say, 25 years, but the setup is much more intensive and time-consuming than a quick one-off (e.g. Merbel)

So there's more then just magic for a cubi to hold a form. Interesting, I wonder which one Aniz used?

One would think from the dialogue that Abel gave to Dan about using magic to shapeshift, that Aniz's little heart attack would make excellent cover to hide the pains of changing back. But Abel never said anything about changing back would be just as painful.

While using the long term meditative measure reminds me of how you might hold a muscles in a certain way for an extended time and the muscle cramps. or how suddenly pulling the muscle out of a held position might give you a bit of pain. Could Aniz have been suffering from extreme physical exertion from trying to change from Cid to Aniz after maintaining that form for so long and suddenly changing back?

[Tapewolf]

So there's more then just magic for a cubi to hold a form. Interesting, I wonder which one Aniz used?

That was actually the context of the discussion, Abel's fake clothing vs Aniz's long-term disguise.  I've found the thread here:
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,8048.msg345763.html#msg345763

"The key to things is preparation.  Obviously a Cubi wouldn't be worth salt if they lost their shapechange should they take a two hour nap.    What normally happens, particularly in a long-term disguise, is that a Cubi will apply a mental block of sort that handles the change subconciously.  Depending on the necessity, this can be something as simple and easy to dismiss, or something that nothing short of complete incapacitation would shake.

Abel in this case didn't really bother putting any major holds on his temporary outfit because he didn't really see a necessity to take the extra hours mentally fortifying one.  As such, simple unconciousness caused him to go default.  Aniz more than likely took a lot of time and mental preparation so that his disguise as Cid wouldn't poof. "

[Prroul]

That aside... I'm somewhat amused that various mythos species seem to be the ones at the forefront of scientific knowledge (Jyrras aside).  We've seen one mythos species involved in space travel, and now another that appears to understand genetics, with the capability to manipulate genetic code on a large scale.  Makes me wonder if there's any mythos species investigating high energy physics or nanotechnology?

I figure it stands to reason - a world which has magic may be able to see the underlying structure of things in ways which we need advanced optics and particle physics to do.  Chances are they know at least some atomic theory if they can cast transmutation spells.

Hey, it's only a matter of stripping off a couple of Protons and Neutrons to turn Lead into Gold, the Electrons will zip off on their own accord due to the lack of attractive force of the nucleus. Of course, you'd best be careful where the spare bits go... wouldn't want to have an uncontrolled chain reaction of atomic fission/fusion. Those things can get pretty... unpleasant.

A magician capable of actual transmutation who is also armed with the knowledge of the Periodic Table of Elements can likely achieve phenomenal results as long as his spell can keep all the fine details nice and ordered. Then again, that would be a moderately risky process (screw up the spell and get engulfed in a nuclear fireball the size of Hiroshima...), so the odds of finding actual Transmuters capable of performing such tasks would, likewise, be exceedingly rare.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

A magician capable of actual transmutation who is also armed with the knowledge of the Periodic Table of Elements can likely achieve phenomenal results as long as his spell can keep all the fine details nice and ordered. Then again, that would be a moderately risky process (screw up the spell and get engulfed in a nuclear fireball the size of Hiroshima...), so the odds of finding actual Transmuters capable of performing such tasks would, likewise, be exceedingly rare.

More likely, screw the spell up slightly and die early from cancer brought on by the radioactivity, without ever knowing what it was that killed you.


Granted, if you knew what you were doing, you could manage a shield to cut the risk significantly, but that sort of shield is going to be painfully hard to keep up, so I can see "amateur" transmuters failing to apply shields all the time and being darwinated out of existence. But then, there's an element of risk in everything you do - even staying in bed all day.

[Prroul]

A magician capable of actual transmutation who is also armed with the knowledge of the Periodic Table of Elements can likely achieve phenomenal results as long as his spell can keep all the fine details nice and ordered. Then again, that would be a moderately risky process (screw up the spell and get engulfed in a nuclear fireball the size of Hiroshima...), so the odds of finding actual Transmuters capable of performing such tasks would, likewise, be exceedingly rare.

More likely, screw the spell up slightly and die early from cancer brought on by the radioactivity, without ever knowing what it was that killed you.


Granted, if you knew what you were doing, you could manage a shield to cut the risk significantly, but that sort of shield is going to be painfully hard to keep up, so I can see "amateur" transmuters failing to apply shields all the time and being darwinated out of existence. But then, there's an element of risk in everything you do - even staying in bed all day.

Mmm... yes, hard radiation would probably do Bad Things and you wouldn't even be aware of it until it was far too late. I would assume that part of the spell would be the containment necessary to prevent stray radiation from killing everyone in the area. However, the fact remains that you'd have spare protons and neutrons going one direction, or have a need for spare protons and neutrons going the other way. Which would need to come from somewhere.

Now, going 'upstream' would be easy, just electrolyze Hydrogen out of water for spare protons and neutrons. Going the other way would be more difficult, you'd need to do something with the spare neutrons and protons, you couldn't just leave them wandering around, there would be too much chance they would randomly hit something and do Bad Things. So you'd end up with some kind of byproduct. Now, you could just make more Hydrogen by putting a proton and neutron together and permitting them to attract an electron, but depending on what you have left over, you might end up with some... unusual... arrangements. Which might themselves be radioactive, depending on the precise atomic weight.

A very complex blending of magic and science...

[mithril]

as one of those who's asked these kinds of questions before, thank you for the answer. this should help those of us who have personal Cubi characters and such. though i don't think any of us expected a full comic in answer to our questions. 

this actually helps answer one of my other questions, sparked by 1402, basically whether Cubi gender is a fixed thing or not. is shapechanging is purely cosmetic, they actually can be considered to have a single gender.. so a male remains a male, even if shape changed to a female appearance. presumably shapechanging would make issues of trans-gender (males who identify as female and vice versa) a trickier thing for cubi though.