09/18/2010 [PF #136] - When all else fails...give them a pamphlet!

[ChaosMageX]

I'm sure there's a TV trope for doing something like that, but I'm too lazy to try to find one right now.

Also, I just the love the style in how W-ILS is now drawn.

I especially like how Ren seems to finally be bringing ear expressiveness into the comic.  This is important for W-ILS, since it's a substitute for his lack of visible eyebrows/eyeridges.

[Tapewolf]

I'm sure there's a TV trope for doing something like that, but I'm too lazy to try to find one right now.

If you mean 'Mary Sue', just don't go there.   Jakob organised the project but he didn't do the entire thing single-handedly

If you mean the whole immortality business, that's the major theme of the story.

Also, I just the love the style in how W-ILS is now drawn.

Ren was saying at one point that drawing the panthers has been giving him some heartache.

I especially like how Ren seems to finally be bringing ear expressiveness into the comic.  This is important for W-ILS, since it's a substitute for his lack of visible eyebrows/eyeridges.

Don't tell Ren, but I've been secretly removing the eyebrows...

[Turnsky]

If you mean 'Mary Sue', just don't go there.   Jakob organised the project but he didn't do the entire thing single-handedly

Gerry Anderson also didn't do 'Captain Scarlet' by himself, but that's still quite a few strings to pull.

[hapless]

Just how he's gonna turn the pages, tho?

[Tapewolf]

Just how he's gonna turn the pages, tho?

Rubber paw pads?

Fun fact: I came up with the pamphlet idea because I could see the whole 'Johan Cross' thing that's already happened with Josh and Dorcan playing out repetitively each time a new character showed up.

[Turnsky]

real men use instructional movies. 

[Madmann135]

For once Daryil doesn't seem like a complete loon.  With what Jakob said Dorcan is familiar with laws and how to get around said laws.

[Turnsky]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/bengahlreview.jpg

the reviews are in! 

[Alteisentier]

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/1491/altreview.jpg teehee

[joshofspam]

Sorry. All I can think about is Beatlejuice and the book that reads like stereo instructions.

Though those rules on no new life make me wonder if some places might be dangers for such beings? Though android body's probably handle fire a whole lot better then the undead.

[Lore]

I wonder if Jakob has ever considered that there might be reasons it's illegal, and generally immoral/unethical, to play God. Never mind that it's untested how beings will handle immortality. Hell, most 'cubi, demons, and angels only ever live to see a few thousand years. The psychological effects of transplanting a person's soul into an entirely foreign and unnatural body are greatly underplayed. Simple organ transplants tend to have profound effects on the recipients- for instance, they tend to suddenly take on unusual personality traits that, when investigated, coincide with quirks from the donor. Nevermind the philosophical delimmas- am I really still myself?

Even that's more physical than psychological. How does Joshua feel, knowing he'll outlive everyone he's ever known and loved, that he'll never be able to have a lasting relationship even if he dates outside his race, that he'll never have children? How will he feels when someone inevitably finds out that he's not really alive and shows prejudice against him? I'm sure there could easily be a strong argument of him not being a living creature in the first place, but rather a cleverly programmed robot. It seems inevitable that, with millions of years to ponder it, even he would question his own existence, his very soul. Frankly, I think immortality would drive him- and almost anyone else- insane.

And that's not even touching on the fact that we live in a world that's built to die. If this android technology becomes openly available, it is entirely feasible that overpopulation would be come a very dangerous threat. And even then, if this technology did somehow become available to consumers and not just Jakob's Chosen Ones, it would take a massive amount of money to buy an android body. The gap between upper and lower classes would suddenly become a massive void; the rich would have immortality at their fingertips, and the poor? The poor would be cursed to die.

[joshofspam]

I wonder if Jakob has ever considered that there might be reasons it's illegal, and generally immoral/unethical, to play God. Never mind that it's untested how beings will handle immortality. Hell, most 'cubi, demons, and angels only ever live to see a few thousand years. The psychological effects of transplanting a person's soul into an entirely foreign and unnatural body are greatly underplayed. Simple organ transplants tend to have profound effects on the recipients- for instance, they tend to suddenly take on unusual personality traits that, when investigated, coincide with quirks from the donor. Nevermind the philosophical delimmas- am I really still myself?

Even that's more physical than psychological. How does Joshua feel, knowing he'll outlive everyone he's ever known and loved, that he'll never be able to have a lasting relationship even if he dates outside his race, that he'll never have children? How will he feels when someone inevitably finds out that he's not really alive and shows prejudice against him? I'm sure there could easily be a strong argument of him not being a living creature in the first place, but rather a cleverly programmed robot. It seems inevitable that, with millions of years to ponder it, even he would question his own existence, his very soul. Frankly, I think immortality would drive him- and almost anyone else- insane.

And that's not even touching on the fact that we live in a world that's built to die. If this android technology becomes openly available, it is entirely feasible that overpopulation would be come a very dangerous threat. And even then, if this technology did somehow become available to consumers and not just Jakob's Chosen Ones, it would take a massive amount of money to buy an android body. The gap between upper and lower classes would suddenly become a massive void; the rich would have immortality at their fingertips, and the poor? The poor would be cursed to die.

Wait wasn't that theme used in an anime involving space trains and flying pirate ships?

[Chakat Blackspots]

I wonder if Jakob has ever considered that there might be reasons it's illegal, and generally immoral/unethical, to play God. Never mind that it's untested how beings will handle immortality. Hell, most 'cubi, demons, and angels only ever live to see a few thousand years. The psychological effects of transplanting a person's soul into an entirely foreign and unnatural body are greatly underplayed. Simple organ transplants tend to have profound effects on the recipients- for instance, they tend to suddenly take on unusual personality traits that, when investigated, coincide with quirks from the donor. Nevermind the philosophical delimmas- am I really still myself?

Even that's more physical than psychological. How does Joshua feel, knowing he'll outlive everyone he's ever known and loved, that he'll never be able to have a lasting relationship even if he dates outside his race, that he'll never have children? How will he feels when someone inevitably finds out that he's not really alive and shows prejudice against him? I'm sure there could easily be a strong argument of him not being a living creature in the first place, but rather a cleverly programmed robot. It seems inevitable that, with millions of years to ponder it, even he would question his own existence, his very soul. Frankly, I think immortality would drive him- and almost anyone else- insane.

And that's not even touching on the fact that we live in a world that's built to die. If this android technology becomes openly available, it is entirely feasible that overpopulation would be come a very dangerous threat. And even then, if this technology did somehow become available to consumers and not just Jakob's Chosen Ones, it would take a massive amount of money to buy an android body. The gap between upper and lower classes would suddenly become a massive void; the rich would have immortality at their fingertips, and the poor? The poor would be cursed to die.

Wait wasn't that theme used in an anime involving space trains and flying pirate ships?

Galaxy Express 999 or Galaxy Railways?

[SquirrelWizard]

another example of why mass immortality for creatures who normally aren't immortal isn't a great idea.

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20070902.html

[Tapewolf]

I wonder if Jakob has ever considered that there might be reasons it's illegal, and generally immoral/unethical, to play God. Never mind that it's untested how beings will handle immortality.

Jakob really sees it as an extension of the undead, but with more of a technological base than a magical one.

Hell, most 'cubi, demons, and angels only ever live to see a few thousand years. The psychological effects of transplanting a person's soul into an entirely foreign and unnatural body are greatly underplayed. Simple organ transplants tend to have profound effects on the recipients- for instance, they tend to suddenly take on unusual personality traits that, when investigated, coincide with quirks from the donor. Nevermind the philosophical delimmas- am I really still myself?

I'd be interested to see a citation about the transplant thing, I haven't heard of that (outside of horror/SF anyway) and I'm intrigued.  As for the android brains, it's true that they've only had a couple of decades to be proven in.  In some ways, one of the reasons Jakob is currently handing out bodies like candy (upcoming production issues notwithstanding) is because he wants to see how well it works.

At the end of the day, what he's offering is a choice between being alive as an android, or being dead and finding out the hard way what sort of afterlife Furrae has (if any - souls might simply be preserved in a non-running state, though I have my doubts about that and I'm not sure I really want to know).
If I were dying I'm pretty sure I'd take a chance on the android body, but that might just be me (for obvious reasons, a lot of this story reflects some of my own personal attitudes towards immortality which may well be different to other people's).

Even that's more physical than psychological. How does Joshua feel, knowing he'll outlive everyone he's ever known and loved, that he'll never be able to have a lasting relationship even if he dates outside his race, that he'll never have children?

Joshua's a bit of an oddball case anyway, given that he was an orphan and pretty much entirely dedicated to his work prior to his murder.  For what it's worth, the android project isn't something that Jakob is about to force on anyone - it's simply an option that he's presenting.  I could say more, but it'll be covered in the story anyway.
What I will say is that not everyone does go for it.

How will he feels when someone inevitably finds out that he's not really alive and shows prejudice against him? I'm sure there could easily be a strong argument of him not being a living creature in the first place, but rather a cleverly programmed robot. It seems inevitable that, with millions of years to ponder it, even he would question his own existence, his very soul. Frankly, I think immortality would drive him- and almost anyone else- insane.

Given that it was an honest-to-gods actual soul transfer, you'd have to come up with some sort of paranoia involving Jakob and his team not doing the transfer properly for some unspecified reason.  Besides, he'd still pass a faeta gem test if he was that concerned.
In a world like ours without the ability to study and manipulate souls?  Yeah, it would be a lot more of a sticky philosophical issue (Mona Lisa Overdrive handled this issue a lot worse IMHO  ).

Long term?  You might want to look up Nicky on the Demon page in DMFA.

And that's not even touching on the fact that we live in a world that's built to die. If this android technology becomes openly available, it is entirely feasible that overpopulation would be come a very dangerous threat. And even then, if this technology did somehow become available to consumers and not just Jakob's Chosen Ones, it would take a massive amount of money to buy an android body. The gap between upper and lower classes would suddenly become a massive void; the rich would have immortality at their fingertips, and the poor? The poor would be cursed to die.

For what it's worth, it's not a given whether Jakob will be allowed to pursue his technology by The-Powers-That-Be.  Assuming he does, overpopulation is something that could probably be managed, given sufficient political will and technical knowledge.  Androids may have a production cap a'la Against A Dark Background and once converted, can't reproduce anyway.  For regular Beings, think one-child-per-family - though bear in mind that first-world countries on Earth tend to have a declining population.

In the worst case, you might end up with a situation where androids tend to migrate out to other worlds less suitable for Beings or Creatures, possibly as exiles.

Jakob has taken some of this into account, though maybe not as fully as he should.
If you really want to see a half-baked android project, wait until chapter 27 

For once Daryil doesn't seem like a complete loon.  With what Jakob said Dorcan is familiar with laws and how to get around said laws.

Daryil, yeah.  He tends to goof off a lot, but there's a lot more to him than that.

[Lore]

I wonder if Jakob has ever considered that there might be reasons it's illegal, and generally immoral/unethical, to play God. Never mind that it's untested how beings will handle immortality.

Jakob really sees it as an extension of the undead, but with more of a technological base than a magical one.

The undead are also not looked fondly upon, and also greatly experimental. It says in the demonology page:

Since they are a new race, only existing for a couple hundred years, no one is sure how long an individual will last. However once undead, the process of decay seems to halt in 98% of the cases, so it is likely they could live as long as many of the other Creature races.

The other creatures races? Not immortal. Long lives, sure, by our standards. But very, very rarely immortal.

Also:

However many beings were very uncomfortable with the concept of their dead relatives and friends coming back and so the majority of Undead left their homeland in search of a place to call home.

I can see this happening easily with the androids. Remember Hannah? She hid that she was undead, an indicator that the undead are not, generally, looked upon with favor. Considering how heavy discrimination can be between creatures and beings in some places.... I have a feeling the undead are generally more unwelcome than we know.

Hell, most 'cubi, demons, and angels only ever live to see a few thousand years. The psychological effects of transplanting a person's soul into an entirely foreign and unnatural body are greatly underplayed. Simple organ transplants tend to have profound effects on the recipients- for instance, they tend to suddenly take on unusual personality traits that, when investigated, coincide with quirks from the donor. Nevermind the philosophical delimmas- am I really still myself?

I'd be interested to see a citation about the transplant thing, I haven't heard of that (outside of horror/SF anyway) and I'm intrigued.  As for the android brains, it's true that they've only had a couple of decades to be proven in.  In some ways, one of the reasons Jakob is currently handing out bodies like candy (upcoming production issues notwithstanding) is because he wants to see how well it works.

Unfortunately that was something I learned in the health class I was forced to take year after year in highschool. I watched several documentaries in which people with organ transplants talked about how things like their taste in foods changed after the transplant, and about their insecurities. There was also usually a great feeling of guilt that someone had to die for them to live, but that wouldn't be the case with the androids. Regardless, a quick google search could probably answer your questions about that, if not, I'll dig something up. I'm positive there's something about it in my psychology textbook.

At the end of the day, what he's offering is a choice between being alive as an android, or being dead and finding out the hard way what sort of afterlife Furrae has (if any - souls might simply be preserved in a non-running state, though I have my doubts about that and I'm not sure I really want to know).
If I were dying I'm pretty sure I'd take a chance on the android body, but that might just be me (for obvious reasons, a lot of this story reflects some of my own personal attitudes towards immortality which may well be different to other people's).

Even that's more physical than psychological. How does Joshua feel, knowing he'll outlive everyone he's ever known and loved, that he'll never be able to have a lasting relationship even if he dates outside his race, that he'll never have children?

Joshua's a bit of an oddball case anyway, given that he was an orphan and pretty much entirely dedicated to his work prior to his murder.  For what it's worth, the android project isn't something that Jakob is about to force on anyone - it's simply an option that he's presenting.  I could say more, but it'll be covered in the story anyway.
What I will say is that not everyone does go for it.

Really? I don't recall Joshua being given a choice. I actually remember him freaking the hell out, and Jakob forcibly removing his fear.

How will he feels when someone inevitably finds out that he's not really alive and shows prejudice against him? I'm sure there could easily be a strong argument of him not being a living creature in the first place, but rather a cleverly programmed robot. It seems inevitable that, with millions of years to ponder it, even he would question his own existence, his very soul. Frankly, I think immortality would drive him- and almost anyone else- insane.

Given that it was an honest-to-gods actual soul transfer, you'd have to come up with some sort of paranoia involving Jakob and his team not doing the transfer properly for some unspecified reason.  Besides, he'd still pass a faeta gem test if he was that concerned.
In a world like ours without the ability to study and manipulate souls?  Yeah, it would be a lot more of a sticky philosophical issue (Mona Lisa Overdrive handled this issue a lot worse IMHO   ).

Long term?  You might want to look up Nicky on the Demon page in DMFA.

I was thinking more along the lines of "Does my soul actually exist? Does it still exist, unaltered? What exactly is a soul?" However, that's Word of God territory, and I doubt she's going to get involved in this.

And that's not even touching on the fact that we live in a world that's built to die. If this android technology becomes openly available, it is entirely feasible that overpopulation would be come a very dangerous threat. And even then, if this technology did somehow become available to consumers and not just Jakob's Chosen Ones, it would take a massive amount of money to buy an android body. The gap between upper and lower classes would suddenly become a massive void; the rich would have immortality at their fingertips, and the poor? The poor would be cursed to die.

For what it's worth, it's not a given whether Jakob will be allowed to pursue his technology by The-Powers-That-Be.  Assuming he does, overpopulation is something that could probably be managed, given sufficient political will and technical knowledge.  Androids may have a production cap a'la Against A Dark Background and once converted, can't reproduce anyway.  For regular Beings, think one-child-per-family - though bear in mind that first-world countries on Earth tend to have a declining population.

That's a messy subject to get into. Imagine how poorer families would feel if they couldn't have children because richer people would rather live forever than let fresh blood enter the gene pool. Nevermind the fact that it's not even first-world countries I'm explicitly referring to. Any country, modern or otherwise, is going to have people that are well-to-do but still can't afford the enormous cost an android body would entail.

In the worst case, you might end up with a situation where androids tend to migrate out to other worlds less suitable for Beings or Creatures, possibly as exiles.

This is quite feasible, assuming the other worlds have some sort of energy form the androids can use. Again, Word of God territory.

Jakob has taken some of this into account, though maybe not as fully as he should.
If you really want to see a half-baked android project, wait until chapter 27  

Joy.

[Amber Williams]

Jakob really sees it as an extension of the undead, but with more of a technological base than a magical one.

Keep in mind please, that the undead race in DMFA has only been classified as a race for about 40 some years at the time of the comic.    The concept that they are going to be immortal has yet to really withstand the test of time.  Undead before the event were incredibly few and far between, and more importantly, mindless husks without a personality or individuality and rather experimental.

It is very possible that the Undead race as a whole could die off in a single day just as suddenly as they were created.

[VAE]

Allright.. i have little to say to points addressed by tape allready, or those which are rightfully "word of goddess" labelled.
I hope it is comprehensible, as it is rather late

The undead are also not looked fondly upon, and also greatly experimental. It says in the demonology page:

***

The other creatures races? Not immortal. Long lives, sure, by our standards. But very, very rarely immortal.

Well, they can prolong lifespan indefinitely by a trivial manner (even being souls suffice).
Both basically have lifespans until killed or wishes to die.

Unfortunately that was something I learned in the health class I was forced to take year after year in highschool. I watched several documentaries in which people with organ transplants talked about how things like their taste in foods changed after the transplant, and about their insecurities. There was also usually a great feeling of guilt that someone had to die for them to live, but that wouldn't be the case with the androids. Regardless, a quick google search could probably answer your questions about that, if not, I'll dig something up. I'm positive there's something about it in my psychology textbook.

Oh woe is me.
Yet, organ transplants are still done, since a value of saved life is for society greater than what few temporary psychological problems bring.
Heck... even for amputees, the quality of life isn't as great as before, yet noone euthanises them...
Not to mention, those arguments apply for real life... in Furrae, situation is even better since things like devouring emotions etc. are able to "talk sense" even into people who normally would be inaccessible - like Abel in his youth after his father has taken him forcibly to SAIA and killed Hennya in the process.

Besides, the alternative is ceasing to exist, which doesn't seem like fun.

Really? I don't recall Joshua being given a choice. I actually remember him freaking the hell out, and Jakob forcibly removing his fear.

True... asides from the fact that giving people choice isn't always best for them, it doesn't stand against the technique as a whole, only this particular application of it.
Rather like saying walking sticks are bad, because neighbor's grandma used one to beat up the postman.

.
That's a messy subject to get into. Imagine how poorer families would feel if they couldn't have children because richer people would rather live forever than let fresh blood enter the gene pool. Nevermind the fact that it's not even first-world countries I'm explicitly referring to. Any country, modern or otherwise, is going to have people that are well-to-do but still can't afford the enormous cost an android body would entail.

Now this, and the thing in the previous post belongs to an interesting strand of argument.
It makes one wonder how did, for example europe survive without overpopulation  up to now, even though infant mortality dropped staggeringly since even 100 years ago.
For  Furrae it is even better - there are lifeforms with lifespans similar to the androids, and an equally easy reproduction to that of beings, yet the place isn't "clogged up".

To the above... well again, that's an argument against pretty much any medical advancement... from it follows that insulin is evil as well, since right after the war, into early 50s it was rare and sought after in the black market meaning the ones who mostly got it were the rich diabetics...
This attitude is similar to luddism - it consists on blaming the tool for how it is being used.

Nevermind two more points:

I) agelessness is beneficial for the society as it essentially elliminates the economically passive age. (mainly senescence) as well as having to train the new workforce.

II) I don't know about you but having a slight chance at getting to live essentially forever is still better than everyone just dying off. Especially in a society where there already are creatures with such lifespans just thanks to their race/species.

Ooh,,, did i mention creatures already can prolong their lives just by souleating beings? And it isn't all that more difficult than killing someone, especially since you have a few thousand years to learn the techniques before it becomes of vital importance.
Essentially all this does is give beings access to extended lifespans....
There are many ways i can see this, but none of them clicks as Ebil, or even ordinary evil.

[Keleth]

Ooh,,, did i mention creatures already can prolong their lives just by souleating beings? And it isn't all that more difficult than killing someone, especially since you have a few thousand years to learn the techniques before it becomes of vital importance.
Essentially all this does is give beings access to extended lifespans....
There are many ways i can see this, but none of them clicks as Ebil, or even ordinary evil.

...Okay so killing someone isn't 'ordinary evil'.

No, we just call that evil.

[Turnsky]

The thing is, giving beings that can actively devour souls a new source of nutrition to feed off of and prolong their lives almost indefinitely may "save lives" at the behest of others.

By changing the balance of power, other races may not like that prospect, and being all manner of misery on those beings, and anybody who'd happen to be nearby. Now see, regardless of intention, that would be quite evil for unintentional reasons.
And given Jakob's "good intentions" on this, he's not merely paving a road, he's putting down a full four-lane sealed Asphalt highway to hell with his good intentions.

That and the implications of: Artificial Souls + Android Bodies = Potential endless army of intelligent drones. At least that's how anybody with half a ounce of healthy paranoia would see it. The thing is, that there's the possibility of stirring old grudges, making new ones, and even making the Fae very, very grumpy.

and generally going on the supposition of "what is a soul" is flawed because A) that's a very open question, B) you said yourself (in comic) that making said souls is seen as generating new life. C) if this was the case, then all those souls that Jakob's produced so far have the potential of becoming sentient somehow, causing all manner of havoc.

Immortality is overrated, don't forget.. i mean, Fae are immortal, and even they get tired of living and want to begin anew.

[SquirrelWizard]

I) agelessness is beneficial for the society as it essentially eliminates the economically passive age. (mainly senescence) as well as having to train the new workforce.

I beg to differ on two points. First, agelessness would kill ingenuity, since aging people wouldn't be cycled out of the workforce. There would be no fresh blood to take a whack at the problems. It would result in stagnation. Second, agelessness doesn't work in being society, because the society evolved from a group that had multiple stages in their life. Popping the cap off of the end could result in drastic, if not cataclysmic, changes in society which is opposite of the intended effect by Cross.

II) I don't know about you but having a slight chance at getting to live essentially forever is still better than everyone just dying off. Especially in a society where there already are creatures with such lifespans just thanks to their race/species.

Immortality is a wish for some, but ultimately its a prison. Our psyche (and likely that of beings) are generally not designed to live beyond the lifespan of our bodies. It is something that seems ingrained within us, a natural expiration date. While it wouldn't be apparent at the beginning, later on it would likely result in severe psychological issues.

Essentially all this does is give beings access to extended lifespans....
There are many ways i can see this, but none of them clicks as Ebil, or even ordinary evil.

Just because it doesn't scream evil, doesn't make it the right thing to do. This could fall under evil through irresponsibly category, where the fallout from an action causes more harm than the actual benefit gained from the original action.

[Lore]

I know this beef with me is personal, but I'm justifying your nerd-rage with a response. Feel honored.

The undead are also not looked fondly upon, and also greatly experimental. It says in the demonology page:

***

The other creatures races? Not immortal. Long lives, sure, by our standards. But very, very rarely immortal.

Well, they can prolong lifespan indefinitely by a trivial manner (even being souls suffice).
Both basically have lifespans until killed or wishes to die.

Soul stealing is trivial now? We don't know how much soul-eating it takes to add even a couple years onto a 'cubi's life, or even how difficult soul eating is. The average lifespan for 'cubi is, according to Demonology 101, 3000 years. If one could eat a couple souls and add a thousand years to their life, why wouldn't that span be much, much longer? And why are there so few tri-wings, if power is so easily obtained?

Unfortunately that was something I learned in the health class I was forced to take year after year in highschool. I watched several documentaries in which people with organ transplants talked about how things like their taste in foods changed after the transplant, and about their insecurities. There was also usually a great feeling of guilt that someone had to die for them to live, but that wouldn't be the case with the androids. Regardless, a quick google search could probably answer your questions about that, if not, I'll dig something up. I'm positive there's something about it in my psychology textbook.

Oh woe is me.
Yet, organ transplants are still done, since a value of saved life is for society greater than what few temporary psychological problems bring.
Heck... even for amputees, the quality of life isn't as great as before, yet noone euthanises them...
Not to mention, those arguments apply for real life... in Furrae, situation is even better since things like devouring emotions etc. are able to "talk sense" even into people who normally would be inaccessible - like Abel in his youth after his father has taken him forcibly to SAIA and killed Hennya in the process.

Besides, the alternative is ceasing to exist, which doesn't seem like fun.

I didn't say anyone should roll over and die because they got an organ transplant. I was using that as a rough example for traumas that don't seem to have any effect at all in Project Future. I am personally a registered organ donor, and an avid transplant supporter. That wasn't the point of my example.

Really? I don't recall Joshua being given a choice. I actually remember him freaking the hell out, and Jakob forcibly removing his fear.

True... asides from the fact that giving people choice isn't always best for them, it doesn't stand against the technique as a whole, only this particular application of it.
Rather like saying walking sticks are bad, because neighbor's grandma used one to beat up the postman.

We have no proof that Dorcan or Wils were given a choice either, to be frank. Joshua was just the most obvious example.

.
That's a messy subject to get into. Imagine how poorer families would feel if they couldn't have children because richer people would rather live forever than let fresh blood enter the gene pool. Nevermind the fact that it's not even first-world countries I'm explicitly referring to. Any country, modern or otherwise, is going to have people that are well-to-do but still can't afford the enormous cost an android body would entail.

Now this, and the thing in the previous post belongs to an interesting strand of argument.
It makes one wonder how did, for example europe survive without overpopulation  up to now, even though infant mortality dropped staggeringly since even 100 years ago.
For  Furrae it is even better - there are lifeforms with lifespans similar to the androids, and an equally easy reproduction to that of beings, yet the place isn't "clogged up".

I think you down-play how often creatures get killed. I mean, hundreds of 'cubi died in a single day thanks to Hizell. Yes, that was during a war, but we don't know everything about Furrae. We *do* know adventurers are a big threat to creatures, and that demons in particular seem to gleefully kill each other. Population control right there.

To the above... well again, that's an argument against pretty much any medical advancement... from it follows that insulin is evil as well, since right after the war, into early 50s it was rare and sought after in the black market meaning the ones who mostly got it were the rich diabetics...
This attitude is similar to luddism - it consists on blaming the tool for how it is being used.

No, no. I'm blaming the tool, the method, and the person who made it.

Nevermind two more points:

I) agelessness is beneficial for the society as it essentially elliminates the economically passive age. (mainly senescence) as well as having to train the new workforce.

It also preserves old logic and... screw it, I've said so much on this topic already, I don't feel like repeating myself.

II) I don't know about you but having a slight chance at getting to live essentially forever is still better than everyone just dying off. Especially in a society where there already are creatures with such lifespans just thanks to their race/species.

And then there are people like May, who'd rather spend their money on others than prolong their own life, even though that meant she would likely never see her only child again...

Ooh,,, did i mention creatures already can prolong their lives just by souleating beings? And it isn't all that more difficult than killing someone, especially since you have a few thousand years to learn the techniques before it becomes of vital importance.
Essentially all this does is give beings access to extended lifespans....
There are many ways i can see this, but none of them clicks as Ebil, or even ordinary evil.

Yawn, see above. Though I have to admit, you're defending someone who's characters are all so gloriously perfect they invent new life and power sources to prevent killing and soul eating... with killing and soul eating. Wonderful irony.

[Lisky]

Lets go add some more gas to this fire 8D

An android body is going to cost a very good fortune... it's more complex than a car... even if sold -at cost- you're looking at the equivalent of buying a modern fighter-jet (several hundred million dollars) lets say it's less than that... it's still going to be a hefty fortune... soo.. you have dictators, and the wealthy who're going to be prolonging their lives... probably at the expense of the poorer, and less capable individuals that serve them.

Lets take this one step further... What happens when, day in and day out, you see yourself growing older, wearing out, slowly being used up... you see your leaders, your celebrities, and your geniuses showing none of this.  In fact, not only are they not growing older, they're not changing.  You work yourself to retirement.... what's that, they're still in office, and look like they haven't aged a minute.  You're at your deathbed... what's that... they're still that same mid-20s they've been all your life... now... that's the situation you're talking about with the marketing of these bodies.  Even if there is some form of screening process... you're still talking the ultra rich and wealthy who're going to be the ones who own these things.  If that didn't piss you off, then clearly there's some damn good propaganda going along with the cost of those artificial souls, or android bodies.


Next: Furrae is, for all intents and purposes... a relatively hostile world, from what we've seen.  Adventurers hunt demons, demons kill adventurers... in fact, adventurers have to travel in groups because of the -natural- superiority of creatures.  Now, there's a lot more to it than that... but, quite frankly... most creatures who have a superiority complex are somewhat entitled to it.... Think about how the romans basically enslaved or annexed everyone they encountered... now... Romans had this belief that they were the better people, for a many number of reasons... now... imagine if those same roman leigions could shoot lasers from their eyes, and fly around on happy thoughts... would you, on some level, agree, that they'd be entitled to their belief that they were in fact superior to every other race? 

Sure, some of them try to use their powers for the greater good... but... most don't... the simple statement of "doing it for the greater good" has now pissed someone off...  you're never doing something for the greater good of all... you're doing it for the greater good of (insert subject with which you wish to enhance)

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

Guys, I never thought I'd be the one to say this, given the weight I usually attach to art and study of art, but I think you're all taking this a tad too seriously. While I do agree that the moral implications of transferring consciousnesses into android bodies has been largely skipped over and bears exploring, I think that trying to turn these into sociological arguments is futile. Furrae, as a world, is simply too discordant to really support a working society as we're familiar with it.

   I love Amber's comic, and her characters, but lets look at it honestly; time, space, and organizaiton of people and resources take a backseat to character and humor. We have Wildy composing a spy novel or novella in a single day on a laptop, evidenced by Dan giving her Azlan's ring after she had written quite a bit of it, we have Dan Ti'Fiona being abducted on literally his first day out of adventuring school, and we're told repeatedly of the danger of Creatures and omnipresent tension between creatures and beings, and creatures and other creatures. I have never seen a policeman anywhere in Amber's comic, (unless you count those two guys checking up on DP's grave, personally, they struck me more as private custodians) and the only time I can recall a soldier is the visit to H-ann, a very long time ago. Creatures seem to provide individual security, or perhaps if the Soulstealers are representative, a sort of family/clan based system of protection and responsibility. On the Beings side of things, adventurers are relied upon to provide the bulk of the defense and retribution, at least from the point of view of beings.

Except, in the traditional model of a "fantasy setting" adventurers are at best, a reactive force. You have a problem, you need some muscle and magic to get it solved, you put out some money to attract some adventurers. They're not really good for standing guard and preventing harm from befalling in the first place, that's the job of the aforementionedly absent police and soldiery. Yet we've seen no real evidence of the sort of nervousness to security that ought to be present in a zero security setting. Think back to any old western you saw recently, or one of those post-apocalyptic movies, the sort where there are people still around, but no governments anymore. You get a lot of scavenging for possessions, and a sort of Hobbesian war of all against all. None of that is present in DMFA, instead you have dance bars, video arcades, three foot tall millionaires with not even a visible bodyguard in his mansion, and shopping malls. A comic that springs to mind is the one where Azlan loses to the chess computer, it took nearly 40 years of constant development before you got computers that were even halfway decent at chess playing and while I don't know how good a player Azlan is, you'd think a fae would at least be reasonable. (And don't even get me started on the prevalence of modern technology like computers but without comparable weapon development)

No, the DMFA "world" doesn't work, at least, not in the way your social science professors would recognize. To me, that's fine; I remember, way back, when I asked where SAIA got its stuff from, that "It's supposed to be a story about talking animals, not a lecture on economics." And that's fine, really. But it's not a "real" world in a social sense, and any derivative work is going to inherit DMFA's non-society. Again, the moral issues, that I'd like to see more of, although a part of that is because I'm a sadist and I like seeing characters scream from the inside of padded cells, but for the rest of it? I think you're building a tower upon a very loose foundation.


Best wishes,
Corgatha Taldorthar.

[Tapewolf]

Urgh, looks like we're going to have to have a QFR strip or something to set this straight.


Realistically, I think a bit too much is being made of Jakob's line in panel 4.  Maybe in editing this page down I have failed to get Jakob's point across, but the whole, entire purpose of Jakob's performance on this page is to try and convince Wils that he is not a supervillain, he just plays one on TV.  That's it.  It's not like this is being broadcast around the world as a cast-iron promise to everyone that no-one will ever die again.

It could be considered be that Jakob, fundamentally insecure about a number of things (kind of like me, really) is sufficiently stung by Wils' reaction to the Johan Cross affair that he's overplaying to try and get on his good side, or at least set him at ease.

Keep in mind please, that the undead race in DMFA has only been classified as a race for about 40 some years at the time of the comic.    The concept that they are going to be immortal has yet to really withstand the test of time.  Undead before the event were incredibly few and far between, and more importantly, mindless husks without a personality or individuality and rather experimental.

It is very possible that the Undead race as a whole could die off in a single day just as suddenly as they were created.

Right, and on that note, even I don't believe that the android project would allow every single man and woman to live until stars burn out, and I wrote the thing.  Among other issues you'd have electron migration and storage limitations within the brain, but I digress.

When he says 'immortality', it's really shorthand for something more akin to a Creature lifespan, not until proton decay.

Guys, I never thought I'd be the one to say this, given the weight I usually attach to art and study of art, but I think you're all taking this a tad too seriously. While I do agree that the moral implications of transferring consciousnesses into android bodies has been largely skipped over and bears exploring, I think that trying to turn these into sociological arguments is futile. Furrae, as a world, is simply too discordant to really support a working society as we're familiar with it.

"They didn't do it either," isn't a great excuse, but 'Age of the Pussyfoot' and pretty much all the other things which inspired this story kind of glossed over it too.  [ EDIT:  I guess in part because it was a pre-existing construct in the DMFA universe, to some degree ]

At the risk of trying to wave away what may be shoddy writing on my part, if I thought this page was going to be subjected to quite so much scrutiny as it has been, I would have been a lot more careful with it.  My own personal view of chapter 16 as I recall from when I was writing it, is that it was mostly padding  

Really? I don't recall Joshua being given a choice. I actually remember him freaking the hell out, and Jakob forcibly removing his fear.

I'll grant you that one, but to be fair, Josh does have a particular terror of 'Cubi (as mentioned in his cast page).  He doesn't properly freak until Jakob breaks disguise.

I suppose I should have qualified it better - when the project goes fully live, Jakob isn't intending to force it upon everyone in the world, it's not like he's going to prowl the whole world looking for dying people and turn them into his thralls like Gabriel does in The Prophecy.  If Josh was really, irreconcilably unhappy with it then yeah, Jakob would have reluctantly offered him a peaceful death.

Those are the points I really wanted to cover, I might come back to this when I've read the entire thread through.


EDIT:

You know what?  I might just re-edit that panel tonight if the word 'immortality' is really that much of a problem...

[Tapewolf]

Okay, here's a bit more.  I'm not sure I'm really in the mood to read the thing between Spooks and Danman, I might get around to that later.

The thing is, giving beings that can actively devour souls a new source of nutrition to feed off of and prolong their lives almost indefinitely may "save lives" at the behest of others.

By changing the balance of power, other races may not like that prospect, and being all manner of misery on those beings, and anybody who'd happen to be nearby. Now see, regardless of intention, that would be quite evil for unintentional reasons.
And given Jakob's "good intentions" on this, he's not merely paving a road, he's putting down a full four-lane sealed Asphalt highway to hell with his good intentions.

It's perhaps a little early to be discussing this, it's more a topic for later chapters.

and generally going on the supposition of "what is a soul" is flawed because A) that's a very open question, B) you said yourself (in comic) that making said souls is seen as generating new life. C) if this was the case, then all those souls that Jakob's produced so far have the potential of becoming sentient somehow, causing all manner of havoc.

As Jakob mentions in p68, what he's making is not really a soul at all, it's just an energy field that is roughly similar enough to the real thing for 'Cubi and other such Creatures to be able to absorb it in the same way, or with only minor differences to the magic involved.
The way I see it, the difference between soul energy and a person is all a matter of modulation.

I think light is a reasonable analogy.  I could get a xenon arc light from a cine projector and shine it against the wall.  Hypothetically, the photons could arrange themselves at the quantum level in such as way as to display Fantasia or something but without anything to modulate them in that manner it's statistically improbable ('Film Library' by A.E. Van Vogt not withstanding) - that's arguably more likely than a Jayhawk fake soul becoming sentient.

It's a bit like the difference between a fresh silicon wafer and one with a microprocessor lithographed onto it, or maybe a blank hard disk versus one with all your data on it.

Immortality is overrated, don't forget.. i mean, Fae are immortal, and even they get tired of living and want to begin anew.

Again, that word seems to have been taken a bit more literally than I had actually intended.

Next: Furrae is, for all intents and purposes... a relatively hostile world, from what we've seen.  Adventurers hunt demons, demons kill adventurers... in fact, adventurers have to travel in groups because of the -natural- superiority of creatures.  Now, there's a lot more to it than that... but, quite frankly... most creatures who have a superiority complex are somewhat entitled to it.... Think about how the romans basically enslaved or annexed everyone they encountered... now... Romans had this belief that they were the better people, for a many number of reasons... now... imagine if those same roman leigions could shoot lasers from their eyes, and fly around on happy thoughts... would you, on some level, agree, that they'd be entitled to their belief that they were in fact superior to every other race?

I don't know what the political situation is going to be post-DMFA.  What I've been tacitly assuming is that there has been some major upheaval, but things have settled somewhat since then.  A recurring theme throughout my story is that Beings have got a fair bit more clout politically.

[joshofspam]

One thing I was wondering is if their will be a more cheaper body type that Jacob will make that can be gradually upgraded? Now that he has working bodies he can focus making them more cheaply.

Though crimes may become something of a oddity among Androids. The safety programs and the fact that you can probably be placed at the scene of a crime with tracking and visual form of evidence of guilt or innocents, not to mention of having witnesses that testimony was a recording that can't just be thrown out.

It would be funny having a Demon with diamond hard skin punch a fur. To only pull back a broken fist and have the intended victim tapping one of his feet saying "You done making a fool of your self now?".

[techmaster-glitch]

Though crimes may become something of a oddity among Androids. The safety programs and the fact that you can probably be placed at the scene of a crime with tracking and visual form of evidence of guilt or innocents, not to mention of having witnesses that testimony was a recording that can't just be thrown out.

I actually really love that implication/consequence

"He's a cyborg, you idiot! He recorded every word you said! His memory's admissible as evidence!"

[Tapewolf]

Okay folks, see if that's any better.  You may need to refresh the entire page owing to aggressive caching on Xephernet.

For the curious, the old version is here:
http://www.project-future.org/strips/comic/strip136-old.png

[Amber Williams]

And to be fair...the long long lives on many creatures is a result of my own incompetence as a storywriter.  Had I known what I know now, I likely would have nerfed the lifespan by a great deal for many of the races.  I'm actually still tempted to at some point.