Why violent sex offenders should never be let out of prison...

[Alondro]

Because they do stuff like this when they get out:

Long Kidnapping

They are dangerous FOR LIFE.  They have a 90+ % recidivism rate.  Why in God's name do they keep being paroled when there's so much evidence they'll commit more crimes?

[Sunblink]

Why in God's name do they keep being paroled when there's so much evidence they'll commit more crimes?

I really have no clue, but at this point I'm as disgusted as you are.

Jesus Christ, I'm really glad this poor girl was reunited with her family, but I can't believe the monster responsible was allowed to keep hurting her for so long. That's inexcusable.

I hope they give him the worst sentence imaginable. He's worse than a fucking animal.

[Sprocketsdance]

I really can't think of anything that would be a suitable punishment for filth like that. They should not be given a second chance.. and I don't get why even drug dealers get harsher sentences than these scum.

[Rakala]

Drug dealers get worse sentences because it's political. The whole war on drugs. As far as I'm concerned you get 2 chances. If you screw up your second chance you should be put down.

Men are executed, animals are put down.

[Tapewolf]

They are dangerous FOR LIFE.  They have a 90+ % recidivism rate.  Why in God's name do they keep being paroled when there's so much evidence they'll commit more crimes?

I'd be very careful what you wish for.  Your vore collection would probably get you get you registered as a violent sex offender in the UK under the recent extreme porn laws.  Law of unintended consequences and all.

[Mao]

Just a question to so many of you screaming for blood here:  What about murder?  Do you believe that a murderer can't be reformed?  How about an alcoholic?  These guys are often that way for life.  Both of them are known to cause death.  Not just immeasurable suffering like we've seen here, but death.  The end of life.  Not the ruining and absolute violation of life as we've seen here, but the end of it.  Yeah, these guys are sick, no question on it, but there's still hope for this girl.  Yes, it's going to be riddled with pain and suffering and struggles that many of us can't even begin to imagine, but she still lives.  There is still hope for her, if she can grasp it.

Yet each of you is, to me, nearly frothing at the mouth at her tormentor.  Yet mass murderers I bet you'd likely be less enraged.  Is it because you're desensitized to them?  Exposed to them so often?  What ever the reason, think long and hard about your righteous indignation in calling for the blood of this person, and weigh it as fairly as you can with something that is, to me, far more heinous.

I'm sure many of you will flame me for this, and honestly, I don't care.  You're thinking with your emotions and political agendas and that tends to cloud people's judgments.

As for my view with regards to this, I think we should be more disgusted in the human race because despite all the evidence that people had that showed this was happening nothing was done.  Many folks had reason for concern, but did nothing.  So to my eyes, they are just as guilty.  They could have ended this if they hadn't been so cowardly and just spoke up.  The system failed, and the people failed.

[Tapewolf]

I'm sure many of you will flame me for this, and honestly, I don't care.  You're thinking with your emotions and political agendas and that tends to cloud people's judgments.

No, I think you're right on the money.  As for Alondro, he has a habit of posting inflammatory things here.  I hope this one doesn't get out of hand, because he's been warned about it before and if Damaris decides it looks like he's trolling he'll be up for a rather long vacation  

[Noone]

In the criminal justice system (in the U.S.), serves several goals, one of which is rehabilitating criminals into becoming productive members of society once again. It can be expensive to keep criminals in prison for life, and if they can become productive citizens, or at least docile, all the better. (I think Texas and California spend more on prisons than they do on education, but I'll need to double-check that.) However, some people just can't be reasoned with.

Obviously, it pays to keep in mind that the media will tell about all the failures of the rehabilitation system and not of the successes, it makes a better story to report on, after all.

[Tipod]

Education? Hell, California spends more on prisons than anyone else in the union (and education for that matter, but that's another topic for another time). This whole state is all kinds of retarded.

The problem I have with getting tough on sex offenders is that while the really violent, messed-up ones are kept out of sight, you're also screwing people who got on the registry for really dumb, borderline reasons. Urinating in public is a good example, or two teenagers having sex before the age of consent. Small offenses get lumped in with the large ones like rape and molestion, and thanks to Megan's Law, they could pretty much kiss having a comfortable life goodbye. How do you re-integrate these people into society if you're just going to alienate them completely?

[Lysander]

Kind of along the lines of what Mao said, the more grievous things are often looked over. People watch movies or play games and see people die. Not many people seem to take notice or care unless the one who dies is a loved character. People are often more affected by things like seeing someone's fingernails get torn off than people dying. Why is that? Sure I hate the sick/twisted things people do to each other, but even murderers can reform. That doesn't mean I'll trust everyone I meet until they're stabbing me in the face. And yet, who am I that I can pass judgment on anyone?   

[rabid_fox]

I like extremism.

[Angel]

My mom showed me this story the other day. This stuff is freaking messed up. I believe prisons CAN rehabilitate people - the right kind of prisons, anyway - but these stories always make me doubt myself. 

[Joe3210]

I like extremism.

Me too.  Alondro seems to like this also.

[Sunblink]

Yet each of you is, to me, nearly frothing at the mouth at her tormentor.  Yet mass murderers I bet you'd likely be less enraged.  Is it because you're desensitized to them?  Exposed to them so often?  What ever the reason, think long and hard about your righteous indignation in calling for the blood of this person, and weigh it as fairly as you can with something that is, to me, far more heinous.

I'm sure many of you will flame me for this, and honestly, I don't care.  You're thinking with your emotions and political agendas and that tends to cloud people's judgments.

I probably am thinking with my emotions (less my political agendas), but Mao, I'd be as pissed as I was when writing that post if we were talking about a mass murderer. I understand where you're coming from, but don't assume that I wouldn't be enraged.

As for my view with regards to this, I think we should be more disgusted in the human race because despite all the evidence that people had that showed this was happening nothing was done.  Many folks had reason for concern, but did nothing.  So to my eyes, they are just as guilty.  They could have ended this if they hadn't been so cowardly and just spoke up.  The system failed, and the people failed.

This I do agree with. Actually, there was someone who wanted to speak up, but when she asked her husband about the tents the girl and her kids were living in, he assumed it was just how they wanted to live. What.

So yeah, this is kind of a situation where almost everyone involved makes me feel ill.

No, I think you're right on the money.  As for Alondro, he has a habit of posting inflammatory things here.  I hope this one doesn't get out of hand, because he's been warned about it before and if Damaris decides it looks like he's trolling he'll be up for a rather long vacation 

I don't know, I didn't think it was all that inflammatory compared to some other things. *cough*

[Sofox]

I like extremism.

Me too.  Alondro seems to like this also.

Ugh, all extremists should be taken out and shot.

[Omega]

I like extremism.

Me too.  Alondro seems to like this also.

Ugh, all extremists should be taken out and shot.

I do hope that that was sarcastic joke. I dislike absolutism, but exterminating (or even labeling) all extremists is a flavour of extremism itself.


About the original topic of this thread: I'd like to put some distance to most what has been said. Not to defend this single, dreadful, case in anyway, but to hang all sex offenders? Seriously? Are you people really that, that... ignorant?? "Hang all the rapists!!" Given that I'd me more conservative, I'd still oppose this for many reasons. Mainly because many "rapes" are a but questionable. Luckily I can't speak from experience, but sometimes women claim that they have been violated, when they really haven't (They often do, I'm not trying to Deny that). Because of this some innocent man are judged to be sex offenders when they just happened to be in a wrong place and know a wrong girl who has some issues. I'm not trying to say that rape is a neglectable felony, but that it's so easy to point a finger at a man who might have done it. People are too eager to see to monster. Let us not forget Michael Jackson. I still don't know what to think of him.

[Alondro]

They are dangerous FOR LIFE.  They have a 90+ % recidivism rate.  Why in God's name do they keep being paroled when there's so much evidence they'll commit more crimes?

I'd be very careful what you wish for.  Your vore collection would probably get you get you registered as a violent sex offender in the UK under the recent extreme porn laws.  Law of unintended consequences and all.

Well British law never does make any logical sense.   

That's why as long as our government sticks to the Constitution, we're ok.

[Alondro]

Just a question to so many of you screaming for blood here:  What about murder?  Do you believe that a murderer can't be reformed?  How about an alcoholic?  These guys are often that way for life.  Both of them are known to cause death.  Not just immeasurable suffering like we've seen here, but death.  The end of life.  Not the ruining and absolute violation of life as we've seen here, but the end of it.  Yeah, these guys are sick, no question on it, but there's still hope for this girl.  Yes, it's going to be riddled with pain and suffering and struggles that many of us can't even begin to imagine, but she still lives.  There is still hope for her, if she can grasp it.

Yet each of you is, to me, nearly frothing at the mouth at her tormentor.  Yet mass murderers I bet you'd likely be less enraged.  Is it because you're desensitized to them?  Exposed to them so often?  What ever the reason, think long and hard about your righteous indignation in calling for the blood of this person, and weigh it as fairly as you can with something that is, to me, far more heinous.

I'm sure many of you will flame me for this, and honestly, I don't care.  You're thinking with your emotions and political agendas and that tends to cloud people's judgments.

As for my view with regards to this, I think we should be more disgusted in the human race because despite all the evidence that people had that showed this was happening nothing was done.  Many folks had reason for concern, but did nothing.  So to my eyes, they are just as guilty.  They could have ended this if they hadn't been so cowardly and just spoke up.  The system failed, and the people failed.

Actually, I am a strong proponent of the death penalty for first degree murder, so long as the evidence is rock-solid.

The sex offender laws need a good dose of common sense too, when they classify stupid things as sex offenses, such as the urinating in public thing.  It's the same situation as with NJ schools decision to have a 'no tolerance' policy on violence.  Children in elementary school were being suspended for playing cops and robbers.  The biggest problem is that elected officials and those whom they then appoint to powerful positions in law enforcement and the judiciary have a high probability of being morons.

And as for 'rehabilitation' of the violent sex offenders, the ones who are guilty of rape, pedophilia, child pornography, etc. should have much harsher punishments than they frequently receive.  The failure of the system is to put in place some more reasonable gradations to make mandatory long-term sentences for people who have committed serious sex-based crimes such as these.

Pedophiles, especially, have extraordinarily high recidivism rates.  My 90% figure was a mistake from adding two unrelated statistics, my bad.  I was reading too quickly.

Here is the study group:  http://www.csom.org/pubs/recidsexof.html

Rapists actually don't fare as badly.  Over 25 years, the re-arrest for a similar crime is about 39%.  Which means maybe 60% actually learn their lesson, but still, with almost 40% re-arrested, it's clear that the rehabilitation fails far too often. 

A medicine that had a 40% rate of toxic side-effects would never be approved.  A surgeon who made serious mistakes in surgery 40% of the time would no longer be allowed to practice.  A bank that lied about 40% of its assets would... end up being bailed out by the government.   . 

However, for pedophiles, the re-arrest rate is 52%.  And in those statistics, we also must understand that this is only for crimes that were reported and an offender was convicted.  Pedophiles frequently have a way of learning from their past mistakes and avoiding getting caught as easily as the first time.  As this article mentions, many such later crimes go unidentified and unreported, so the actual recidivism rate is certainly higher.

Serial killers can be lumped in there as well.  They are also extremely high on the recidivism list and have violent tendencies for their entire lives.  And given the nature of their crimes, the rest of society should never be exposed to their psychopathy again once they've been caught.

People who focus on a violent criminals rights seem to often forget about the rights of the innocent people; the right NOT to be molested/kidnapped/murdered by a madman. 

[rabid_fox]

They are dangerous FOR LIFE.  They have a 90+ % recidivism rate.  Why in God's name do they keep being paroled when there's so much evidence they'll commit more crimes?

I'd be very careful what you wish for.  Your vore collection would probably get you get you registered as a violent sex offender in the UK under the recent extreme porn laws.  Law of unintended consequences and all.

Well British law never does make any logical sense.   

That's why as long as our government sticks to the Constitution, we're ok.

Amendment 18.

[Tezkat]

And as for 'rehabilitation' of the violent sex offenders, the ones who are guilty of rape, pedophilia, child pornography, etc. should have much harsher punishments than they frequently receive.  The failure of the system is to put in place some more reasonable gradations to make mandatory long-term sentences for people who have committed serious sex-based crimes such as these.

Pornography is a violent sex crime now? People are behind bars for buying erotic comic books.

Pedophiles, especially, have extraordinarily high recidivism rates.  My 90% figure was a mistake from adding two unrelated statistics, my bad.  I was reading too quickly.

Here is the study group:  http://www.csom.org/pubs/recidsexof.html

Rapists actually don't fare as badly.  Over 25 years, the re-arrest for a similar crime is about 39%.  Which means maybe 60% actually learn their lesson, but still, with almost 40% re-arrested, it's clear that the rehabilitation fails far too often.  

A medicine that had a 40% rate of toxic side-effects would never be approved.  A surgeon who made serious mistakes in surgery 40% of the time would no longer be allowed to practice.  A bank that lied about 40% of its assets would... end up being bailed out by the government.   .  

However, for pedophiles, the re-arrest rate is 52%.  And in those statistics, we also must understand that this is only for crimes that were reported and an offender was convicted.  Pedophiles frequently have a way of learning from their past mistakes and avoiding getting caught as easily as the first time.  As this article mentions, many such later crimes go unidentified and unreported, so the actual recidivism rate is certainly higher.

Serving time for any reason very significantly lowers one's chances of successful reintegration into society after release. Recidivism in sex offenders is significantly lower than in non-sex offenders. According to a recent US DoJ report, 43% of sex offenders vs 68% of non-sex offenders get rearrested within 3 years of release, and only 5% for further sex offences. Most find their way back into the system for garden variety parole violations, property crimes, drugs, and whatnot. You see similar trends in the long term. A longitudinal study published by Public Safety Canada a few years ago showed less than a quarter of violent sex offenders committing another sex crime within 15 years of release. Compare that to 83% overall recidivism among non-sex offenders within a similar time frame. Even if you factor in underreporting of sexual offences (which some studies attempt to do), sex offenders perform better than your average thug.


Painting these guys with broad strokes is not very productive. Sex offenders come in many different flavours, each with different rehabilitation prognoses and treatment requirements. Daddies caught doing naughty things to their daughters have relatively low rates of new sex crimes against children, for instance, while men who preferentially target unrelated boys reoffend in disproportionately high numbers. Even there you see group differentiation. First offenders with only one victim tend to keep clean after serving their time. Those with many victims are usually beyond help. On the other hand, many people convicted of sexual offences against children are not actually pedophiles, per se. It's possible that Garrido isn't. His first victim was a 25-year-old casino worker. He didn't know Jaycee. He was trolling for random victims and may have selected her for reasons other than her age.


From what I've seen, the powers that be already had all the legal tools needed to stop Phil Garrido. He'd only served 11 years of a 50 year sentence for kidnapping (federal) and a potential life sentence for rape (state) before being released on lifetime parole in 1988. The forcible kidnapping and rape of a stranger should be a red flag large enough to see from space. (Food for thought: What would he have done with his first victim had the police not walked in on his little makeshift sex palace?) And yet the parole board let him out. Twice. After he'd been in their custody for only a few months each time. I guess they really needed his bed for all the potheads.

There were also some gross failures in information sharing and education of law enforcement. The officers responding to neighbour's complaints were unaware that they could search Garrido's property without a warrant because of his registered sex offender status. He managed to commit these crimes despite regular police checks and a GPS bracelet around his ankle.

People who focus on a violent criminals rights seem to often forget about the rights of the innocent people; the right NOT to be molested/kidnapped/murdered by a madman.  

It's the age-old question of freedom vs security, and it does go both ways. How much do you value living in a free society? How many innocents are you willing to sacrifice to prevent the guilty from going free?

Right now, law enforcement agencies are wasting millions of taxpayer dollars on allegations of child abuse trumped up during messy divorces. Some might lead to wrongful convictions. Would you lump them into the same bin as the likes of Phil Garrido?

Drug dealers get worse sentences because it's political. The whole war on drugs. As far as I'm concerned you get 2 chances. If you screw up your second chance you should be put down.

Men are executed, animals are put down.

Since this does seem to be a popular sentiment... How would you go about implementing that, exactly?

America's capital punishment system is pretty useless in its current incarnation. It has little value as a deterrent, and it costs significantly more (sometimes an order of magnitude more) to try and execute someone than it does to lock them away for life. Nobody in their right mind would plead out to a sentence that involved needles or chairs, so merely turning every repeat violent sexual offence into a capital crime would cost hundreds of billions of dollars and backlog the courts for decades... not to mention be handled by increasingly less capable individuals who would make more mistakes trying to cope with the load.

So... maybe something less formal, such as a policy of encouraging law enforcement to discharge firearms whenever they catch suspects who look really evil. Putting down villains is considerably cheaper and more efficient when you circumvent due process by allowing police to act as judge, jury, and executioner.

Or maybe just strip criminals of those pesky human rights altogether. Dehumanizing criminals has an undeniable appeal...

[Valynth]

The problem with America's capital punishment system is that it isn't a capital punishment system.  It's more like a "life without parole" system that's "capital" in name only.  When you have a person sentenced to death at 20 and dieing of natural causes some 50-60 years later, it's not much of a deterent when said criminal is already used to living in a prison's system.

At that point all you're doing is giving them a home and free meals for the rest fo their lives.

[Tezkat]

Given lifetime recidivism rates, the entire prison system is a gigantic revolving door with free room and board for criminals at taxpayer expense.


Capital punishment won't deter things like murder. "Oh noes! I might be executed instead of spending 25 years in prison. I better not kill this guy..." Yeah, right. I don't see it having much effect on sex crimes, either.

For capital punishment to deter crime, it must be applied widely and consistently to crimes in which the risk of punishment can significantly alter behaviour. Singapore, for instance, has mandatory capital punishment for murder, drug trafficking, and gun crimes. Appeals are short, and executions usually take place within a couple of years of conviction. I doubt it has much effect on murder except insofar as people are a bit harder to kill without firearms, but it's resulted in the lowest drug abuse per capita in the world. I don't see the Singapore experience scaling up to dealing with problems in the USA, though.

Regardless, capital punishment just isn't fiscally responsible. Even if you don't count the millions spent on room and board (annual cost of housing a death row inmate in the US is well over $100k) and the lengthy automatic appeals process, the cost of a capital trial alone is usually in the millions, especially when the defence is also funded from public coffers (as in the majority of cases). The ridiculous expense means it's only used when the DA wants to make a political statement. To make it cost-effective, one would have to remove most of the fairness normally associated with justice in a free society.


The current policy trend largely ignores rehabilitation. Just lock them up longer (and don't forget to cut less important things like education to pay for it). But unless you're removing criminals from society permanently, you have to deal with them being released. Ideally, that means making them safe for return into general circulation.

It's not as if you can't rehabilitate sex offenders. It just won't happen magically by being locked up in a cell for a few years. You need to understand what makes them tick and figure out how to fix them while providing the appropriate support structures. You can't turn a pedophile into a non-pedophile any more than you can turn a gay man straight, but you can succeed in making them "non-predators". Ditto for garden variety rapists. Castration works really well, too. Chemical castration is becoming widely used in a number of states. It's mandatory for repeat child molesters in California. It's also very cheap. The side effects in men aren't terribly pleasant, but they're manageable and not that much more severe than other medication for serious mental illness.