Confused about Dan's mom

[wussycat]

Is she evil or not?

[Zedd]

Hmmm....Maybe

[Kasarn]

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Yes

[Naldru]

How about the quote from Mae West:

"When I'm good, I'm very, very good.  When I'm bad, I'm better"

[WhiteFire]

Evil is kinda a subjective thing, however, this might help you:

If you consider the use of children in classes devoted to torture and rape and consuming their souls when done with them to be evil, then yes. Dan's mom is evil.

Otherwise, she isn't.

I hope this helps.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

It depends on if you mean "is" or "was"

"was" - very definitely, when she was at SAIA. And then she wasn't, while she was bringing Dan up.
"is" - jury is still out, it depends on what she's up to with Biggs.

[Chaos]

Come now. If you really look at Dan, in the hardest moments that have come upon him, he like his father have been stone cold and willing to hurt. Destania feeds off of pain suffering and other some such. Not only that, given that pre-disposision for his own feedings, the only reason that Dan is Good, par se, is that he is still suffering culture shock.

I bet you he'll find it more and more difficult to be good after Jyrras dies of old age, and then his kid and then...



EDIT: Spelling

[Valynth]

It depends on if you mean "is" or "was"

"was" - very definitely, when she was at SAIA. And then she wasn't, while she was bringing Dan up.
"is" - jury is still out, it depends on what she's up to with Biggs.

The whole Biggs things sounds more like self-defense since she's trying to destroy the dragons who have Dan's dad.

[SpottedKitty]

The whole Biggs things sounds more like self-defense since she's trying to destroy the dragons who have Dan's dad.

I got the impression from the conversations between Destania and Biggs, and Fa'lina and Pyroduck, that the dragon feud — whatever its cause — had been going on for what Beings would consider a long time. Maybe even for what Cubi would consider a long time: certainly a lot longer than Destania's been "missing". In this case, kidnapping Edward would have been part of the feud, and Destania's revenge plan, not the cause of it.

[MT Hazard]

There has been several images of her being loving and caring. If Dan is her first and only child he probably changed her outlook on life.

[Rithm Alfortele]

...I say she's still evil.

Why?

Because she wants to kill ALL the dragons, not just the ones holding Edward captive.

Leave 'em alone!

[superluser]

There has been several images of her being loving and caring. If Dan is her first and only child he probably changed her outlook on life.

Loving family woman and violent, genocidal sociopath are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[DarkAudit]

There has been several images of her being loving and caring. If Dan is her first and only child he probably changed her outlook on life.

Loving family woman and violent, genocidal sociopath are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[wussycat]

There has been several images of her being loving and caring. If Dan is her first and only child he probably changed her outlook on life.

Loving family woman and violent, genocidal sociopath are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Wow, we both thought of the same thing!

[Madmann135]

Short answer - Yes
Long answer - No

Evil is as much of a choice as anything, but remember that evil is also objective.  In war the enemy is always evil no matter which side your on. 

Bad/strange example but it explains what I'm saying. 
-Devoted Christians who believe one thing could  fight Devoted Christians that believe another in a bloody war.  Both sides would call the other side evil because it is how wars are fought.
-In the war between good and evil the Devil himself could be rooting for the side of good.  (saw Reaper recently, that's why I said that)

Good and evil are objective.  Literally speaking one man's good is another man's evil.  Laws and rules, made by individuals, help define good and evil for everyone.


The only reasons 'D' is on my redemption list is because she's a devoted wife and a good mother. 
How many mothers teach their children how to fight?

[Sunblink]

Is she evil or not?

Thus far, Destania's moral code is ambiguous at best, especially after Fi's testimony of her past history, where she volunteered the idea of using children for her torture class. There was even some outcries after everyone realized she was planning genocide for the Dragon race. It's obvious that she cares for her family, but there are probably still habitually "evil" tendencies which Destania hasn't discarded, even with her "new" life. Though one of my speculations is that Destiania once held a callous disregard for life which allowed her to teach her torture classes without qualms, but her attitude changed once she actually created life. Or partially.

So my answer to the question is a tentative "sort of." As in she may be sympathetic and loving towards her family, but she may harbor a more ruthless attitude towards others. Undoubtedly, she was "evil" in the past, but we still have no idea if she was particularly happy about the idea of using children as test subjects for her class and was only insisting upon the idea because she felt it was necessary, so I feel I shouldn't come to any conclusions and make myself look like more of an ass than this already overly long-winded post is.

Hope that offers a bit of perspective, although other people have been giving their contributions as well. I can't speak for Amber, though (HECK no!), so this is purely speculative.

~Keaton the Black Jackal

[Tapewolf]

Undoubtedly, she was "evil" in the past, but we still have no idea if she was particularly happy about the idea of using children as test subjects for her class and was only insisting upon the idea because she felt it was necessary

"Well to be fair.  Odds are Destania would have wanted to consume the kids/infants souls as well. Waste not, want not. "

(Ref: http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=3297.msg142336#msg142336 )

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

So my answer to the question is a tentative "sort of." As in she may be sympathetic and loving towards her family, but she may harbor a more ruthless attitude towards others. Undoubtedly, she was "evil" in the past, but we still have no idea if she was particularly happy about the idea of using children as test subjects for her class and was only insisting upon the idea because she felt it was necessary, so I feel I shouldn't come to any conclusions and make myself look like more of an ass than this already overly long-winded post is.

Long-winded? heeheehee.

We have Fi's description of nigh-on all-out war between Fa'Lina and Destania over the use of children. I've found people tend to find it difficult to argue strongly for something that they don't feel strongly about themselves - particularly if they don't favour it. Fi's description ("I remember the throw down her and Fa'Lina had when Destania wanted to use children and infants for her torture class") seems to suggest, to me at least, that Destania felt strongly that one -should- use them, and Fa'Lina didn't. In which case, if Destania -hadn't- felt strongly about it, surely she wouldn't have had such a big fight over it?

[Sunblink]

Undoubtedly, she was "evil" in the past, but we still have no idea if she was particularly happy about the idea of using children as test subjects for her class and was only insisting upon the idea because she felt it was necessary

"Well to be fair.  Odds are Destania would have wanted to consume the kids/infants souls as well. Waste not, want not. "

(Ref: http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=3297.msg142336#msg142336 )

Oh, well that's pretty despicable. Yeah, okay, she was undoubtedly evil in the past.

We have Fi's description of nigh-on all-out war between Fa'Lina and Destania over the use of children. I've found people tend to find it difficult to argue strongly for something that they don't feel strongly about themselves - particularly if they don't favour it. Fi's description ("I remember the throw down her and Fa'Lina had when Destania wanted to use children and infants for her torture class") seems to suggest, to me at least, that Destania felt strongly that one -should- use them, and Fa'Lina didn't. In which case, if Destania -hadn't- felt strongly about it, surely she wouldn't have had such a big fight over it?

I'll have to agree with you there, and I had pondered the same thing. Destania was probably very adamant about her teaching methods, as unscrupulous as they were.

~Keaton the Black Jackal

[Tapewolf]

Oh, well that's pretty despicable. Yeah, okay, she was undoubtedly evil in the past.

It might be an idea to read further down that thread if you missed it, not least because your name cropped up in the discussion of soul-eating...

[Sunblink]

Oh, well that's pretty despicable. Yeah, okay, she was undoubtedly evil in the past.

It might be an idea to read further down that thread if you missed it, not least because your name cropped up in the discussion of soul-eating...

By jove, it did! I'm strangely flattered, even if my character coming up in a discussion about who's comfortable with soul-eating and enjoying it isn't quite something to be proud of Maybe I'm just weird like that.

Correction: I am weird like that. Proud of it, too.

~Keaton the Black Jackal

[Psaakyrn]

Ok, playing devil's advocate again.

a) Destinia has always showed signs of caring, even back when she was in SAIA. I'll make note of http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_713.php in which she mentioned Abel as a vested student.
b) We may not agree with her values, but there are cubi which does. Example: Aaryanna, http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_294.php
c) She did go through a drastic change during transistion. Drastic enough to be termed a new life. http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_299.php
d) Her clan has a natural affinity for pain. http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_528.php
d) Most importantly, a life lesson by Abel: http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_658.php

I'd say that she probably suffered from a lack of perspective which was likely ingrained by her own clan morals. If a person doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, can they be faulted for it?

[Tapewolf]

I'd say that she probably suffered from a lack of perspective which was likely ingrained by her own clan morals. If a person doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, can they be faulted for it?

Well the interesting thing is that 'Cubi should know that what they are doing is nasty because they are empaths.  About the only explanation I can think of is that when they perceive emotions they are getting them in the abstract, i.e. a particular mental pattern that your own experience and training tells you corresponds to pain, anger or whatever.

If they actually shared the pain they were causing it is doubtful whether they would have the outlook which they do.

[xHaZxMaTx]

Is she evil?  Yes. No. Both. Neither.  It's up to you, really, to define what evil is and see if she fits the description.  I think that's the most definitive answer you're going to get.

[Psaakyrn]

I'd say that she probably suffered from a lack of perspective which was likely ingrained by her own clan morals. If a person doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, can they be faulted for it?

Well the interesting thing is that 'Cubi should know that what they are doing is nasty because they are empaths.  About the only explanation I can think of is that when they perceive emotions they are getting them in the abstract, i.e. a particular mental pattern that your own experience and training tells you corresponds to pain, anger or whatever.

If they actually shared the pain they were causing it is doubtful whether they would have the outlook which they do.

Just because they're empaths doesn't mean that they know what they're doing is wrong, only that what they're doing doesn't match the beliefs of the people they're hurting. If they're backed by other cubi who believes what is being done is right, you have a majority vote otherwise.

Also, her clan feeds on pain, so sharing the pain may not have the right effect you're looking for eitherway. Example: Wildy beating up Azlan to heal Dan. Given that pain's sufficient to rouse the nearly dead, they may even have "hospitals" where beings are tortured to heal clanmates.

[Tapewolf]

Just because they're empaths doesn't mean that they know what they're doing is wrong

I'm not sure about that.  If you actually experience the agony which you're inflicting on someone else, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to keep doing it.  However, it's likely that what you would experience isn't the same as what they're experiencing... indeed, that could feed the speculative notion that "Beings don't have real feelings".

Given that pain's sufficient to rouse the nearly dead, they may even have "hospitals" where beings are tortured to heal clanmates.

Oooh.  I can see Keaton wanting to borrow that idea for her psycho clan

[Aurawyn]

-In the war between good and evil the Devil himself could be rooting for the side of good.  (saw Reaper recently, that's why I said that)

Reminds me of a book series I once read called "Incarnations of Immortality"where the "newest Incarnation of the Devil" Was actually working to get a new incarnation of god put into place so that god would actually DO something in order to start winning the "War of good and Evil"

His whole plan was to get good to win, by doing evil. Is he didn't do evil when the next guy came and took the job of "Devil's incarnation" he would go to hell for doing a bad job (( But he would go to heaven if he did a "Good" job of being evil.. It was a strange series.... Hah ))

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Ok, playing devil's advocate again.

a) Destinia has always showed signs of caring, even back when she was in SAIA. I'll make note of http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_713.php in which she mentioned Abel as a vested student.

Having a "vested interest" in Abel does in no way imply that she's not evil. It just means she was watching Abel. For all you know, she might have had a vested interest because she was training Abel to be evil, and to be able to hide it.

b) We may not agree with her values, but there are cubi which does. Example: Aaryanna, http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_294.php

"A true Creature of beauty and grace" doesn't say anything about evil or goodness. It just says beautiful and graceful. Just to Devil's Advocate you in return ;-]

c) She did go through a drastic change during transistion. Drastic enough to be termed a new life. http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_299.php

... which would imply that she was different beforehand. I believe that was my point. ;-]

d) Her clan has a natural affinity for pain. http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_528.php
d) Most importantly, a life lesson by Abel: http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_658.php

So Cubi are generally jerks. So Destania was probably, by implication, a jerk. And? That's still nothing about good or evil, that's just petty.

I'd say that she probably suffered from a lack of perspective which was likely ingrained by her own clan morals. If a person doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, can they be faulted for it?

Is empathy supposed to enable you to figure out that people are hurt by your actions, or not?

Edit:
Whoops, forgot this section:

Yes, Aurawyn, the Incarnations of Immortality were a bit strange. Being written over the course of, IIRC, 15 years didn't help. But then, Piers Anthony kinda slipped a bit in my estimation when he went into the later Xanth novels (how many is he up to now? 35? 40? after 10 or so he ran out of ideas, IMO...)

[kalika36]

hmmmm any thoughts on maybe this wasnt a ploy....and it just naturally happens when u meet someone and have a baby with them.......

http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_568.php

[Caswin]

Short answer - Yes
Long answer - No

Evil is as much of a choice as anything, but remember that evil is also objective.  In war the enemy is always evil no matter which side your on. 

Bad/strange example but it explains what I'm saying. 
-Devoted Christians who believe one thing could  fight Devoted Christians that believe another in a bloody war.  Both sides would call the other side evil because it is how wars are fought.
-In the war between good and evil the Devil himself could be rooting for the side of good.  (saw Reaper recently, that's why I said that)

Good and evil are objective.  Literally speaking one man's good is another man's evil.  Laws and rules, made by individuals, help define good and evil for everyone.


The only reasons 'D' is on my redemption list is because she's a devoted wife and a good mother. 
How many mothers teach their children how to fight?

Uh... are you sure "subjective" isn't the word you want?