2012?

[Brunhidden]

just a question- did they define what they meant by 'the end of the world'?

most often times the 'end of the world' is merely 'the end of life as we know it' and not 'the end of life', frequently its just 'the end of civilization'.

live with the idea that humans are essentially giant cockroaches, someone somewhere will find a way to survive and eventually thrive. supposedly we have what some people call 'the rule of ten percent' which is either the evolutionary holy grail or the grand failsafe god put in us to make sure we don't all die of stupidity. according to this rule of ten percent, if you were to spread the bubonic plague across every city/village/town on the planet at least ten percent of the people would survive and be immune, same is true for any disease, severe radiation, some form of new uberpreadetor, and any poison found in nature (man made ones kinda bend the rules).

end of the world? feh, things will carry on more or less after everyone has some mad max moments and some power struggles as to who is king of the blasted wastelands.

Humans, why did it have to be humans?

[Valynth]

just a question- did they define what they meant by 'the end of the world'?

most often times the 'end of the world' is merely 'the end of life as we know it' and not 'the end of life', frequently its just 'the end of civilization'.

live with the idea that humans are essentially giant cockroaches, someone somewhere will find a way to survive and eventually thrive. supposedly we have what some people call 'the rule of ten percent' which is either the evolutionary holy grail or the grand failsafe god put in us to make sure we don't all die of stupidity. according to this rule of ten percent, if you were to spread the bubonic plague across every city/village/town on the planet at least ten percent of the people would survive and be immune, same is true for any disease, severe radiation, some form of new uberpreadetor, and any poison found in nature (man made ones kinda bend the rules).

end of the world? feh, things will carry on more or less after everyone has some mad max moments and some power struggles as to who is king of the blasted wastelands.

Humans, why did it have to be humans?

Find complex life forms that live without oxygen and then we'll talk.  Until then I still say that a loss of atmosphere(by loss of gravity) will destroy EVERYTHING.

[xHaZxMaTx]

I have no problem at all believing that organisms could exist that don't breathe oxygen.  Up until just recently, it was thought that all life-forms depended on sun light in one way or another.

[R.A.M.]

one word....huitzel

[Valynth]

I have no problem at all believing that organisms could exist that don't breathe oxygen.  Up until just recently, it was thought that all life-forms depended on sun light in one way or another.

I award you the title of Mr. Space Bacteria.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Find complex life forms that live without oxygen and then we'll talk.  Until then I still say that a loss of atmosphere(by loss of gravity) will destroy EVERYTHING.

... I'm still at a loss as to how you believe gravity (which is a result of mass, according to almost all physicists) is going to be lost, without removing large chunks of the planet.

And I'm talking not just the surface, here. You'd have to pull out a decent sized chunk of the magma, if not down as far as the iron core, before you made any significant change in the gravity measurable at the earth's surface. I'm not sure you grasp just how big the planet really is - I'm talking you'd have to remove something the size of the USA, down an equivalent depth - and the disruption from even attempting something like that would likely destroy the entire rest of the planet, so why you'd want to even try I don't know. Let's not go into just how much energy you'd have to use to get it out of the earth's gravity well....

[Brunhidden]

the majority of the earths mass, and therefore gravity, is from the very core of the earth- which is made out of molten nickel and iron, very heavy elements to begin with and they're being compressed incredibly by the layers of molten rock above them. you wouldn't think that essentially liquid steel would be able to be mushed into 3/4 its original size would you?

also, many life forms need no sunlight. examples are those freaky red tube worms in the bottom of the oceans far past any sunlight. they look like whole bushes of phalluses and get their energy and nutrients by chemical reactions made possible by geothermal vents. also the majority of bacteria (supposedly the original brand of life, green plants were an invasive mutation) die very quickly when exposed to sunlight or oxygen. yeast is also among these.

Ernest Hemingway -
- But did thee feel the earth move?

[superluser]

Let's not go into just how much energy you'd have to use to get it out of the earth's gravity well....

In fact, you'd probably be better off making rockets powerful enough to lift something so large, and forgetting to take the chunk of the Earth along with you.

Attach the rockets to the offending asteroid, and you'll wind up moving it more than you could by reducing the Earth's gravity.

you wouldn't think that essentially liquid steel would be able to be mushed into 3/4 its original size would you?

Well, mushing it isn't going to change anything, since the mass will still be there.

[bill]

Seriously, if the earth lost enough gravity to lose it's atmosphere, it's probably been effed-up six ways from Sunday anyways.

[Yugo]

Spacetime is curved simply by the presence of matter, meaning you would have to destroy the Earth to remove its gravitational effects. To lose its atmosphere, the Earth would have to be destroyed, making it entirely moot.

[superluser]

Spacetime is curved simply by the presence of matter, meaning you would have to destroy the Earth to remove its gravitational effects. To lose its atmosphere, the Earth would have to be destroyed, making it entirely moot.

I think Newton's law of Universal Gravitation can pretty accurately describe what we're discussing here, so I don't know what tensors have to do with it.

Anyways, you don't need to destroy the Earth, just move parts of it away.

That's one thing that I never got about theories like blowing up the moon (which I alluded to in a different thread) to change the gravitational dynamics.  The mass is still there--it's just in a billion smaller bits.  In fact, if you blew up the moon, it would probably re-form itself as the gravity pulled all the bits toward the center of gravity where the moon used to be.  Sure, it would probably be more pear-shaped, and smoother, but the moon would still be there.

[xHaZxMaTx]

And smaller, and a lot of those bits would rain down upon the Earth, and it more than likely wouldn't be in the same orbit so it would either drift away or come crashing into Earth...

[superluser]

And smaller, and a lot of those bits would rain down upon the Earth, and it more than likely wouldn't be in the same orbit so it would either drift away or come crashing into Earth...

Yeah, a bit smaller.  It would, however, still be in roughly the same orbit.  Just probably moving too fast for that orbit.

[Yugo]

Okay, if you changed the gravitational dynamics, you'd still have an atmosphere, because you'd still have gravity. Even if you put the Earth into chunks, those chunks still exert a gravitational force on one another, and the damage you would cause by doing so would probably destroy the Earth anyways.

[superluser]

Okay, if you changed the gravitational dynamics, you'd still have an atmosphere, because you'd still have gravity.

QFT.  Venus has a mass that's about 80% of ours, and has an atmosphere about 100 times as heavy.

Even if you put the Earth into chunks, those chunks still exert a gravitational force on one another

But if you move a chunk away from the Earth, you alter the center of gravity.  Also, if you move part of the Earth farther from the asteroid, the gravitational pull of the all of the Earth objects on asteroid the will be smaller, since the distance between the two is larger (F=Gmm/r**2).

Bad stuff will still happen if you do that, but that particular aspect of this psychoceramic theory has some validity.

[TheDXM]

The sooner the better! But they're all wrong, I'M going to end all life as we know it.

[Brunhidden]

QFT.  Venus has a mass that's about 80% of ours, and has an atmosphere about 100 times as heavy.

this is because earths atmosphere is primarily hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen. all fairly light elements. Venus' atmosphere consists almost entirely (97%) of carbon dioxide, with clouds containing droplets of sulfuric acid along with compounds of chlorine and fluorine. think carbon dioxide is light? its a gas, yes, but its made of carbon, and if you didn't know carbon is very heavy and is used to make things like, oh say, granite. Venus has a heavy atmosphere because its pretty much made of very airy rock.

Working in the theater has a lot in common with unemployment.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

Find complex life forms that live without oxygen and then we'll talk.  Until then I still say that a loss of atmosphere(by loss of gravity) will destroy EVERYTHING.

Loss of atmosphere is possible, but not by a loss of gravity... The atmosphere could blow away by a massive solar storm, and nearby supernova gamma pulse, (some like 10 light years, but we need to be in the direct line of fire),  even a big enough meteor could crack in the Earth's mantel and boil the atmosphere away....

But there are more likely events,

global warming could go beyond a tipping point and you end up with Venus.  This could happen If the frozen methane on the sea floor starts melting because the sea temps get too hot.  Methane would bubble up and add to the present or future load of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

The Earth's magnetic polars switching, which is about due, could leave the Earth without a magnetic shield for a few days or weeks, against the solar wind and radiation.  It may not kill all life but most, and any electronic or electrical device will be fried if not protected in a bombshelter.  That would knock technologies back some fifty years or more.

a Giant Solar Flare on a direct course for Earth would do the same thing, and destroying the power grid for 18 months or years, because it would fried tranformers and substation everywhere.  Could the US and Canda survive without a electrical power for months, so it could repair the grid or years.   Remember when the lights when out in New York City a few years back, think about that across North American everywhere.

Plague-
We have HIV now in the Africa which is bringing many nations close to collapes if not for the UN and US Aid  If we had a real Pandemic of bird flu or another super flu, it would cover the global before the UN could lock down the airlines.  It is estimated a Pandemic would kill upwards of a Billion people or more by itself, how many more would died from other things, like the ecomony or civil law had broken down or health care, as many doctors and nurses would be the first to died of this plague.  Well it would help solve global warming, less people = less CO2 in the long run.

Machine Revolt

We are many years from this, but Our machines may one day get too smart for us, they may think we are too out-dated to maintain.   We have seen in history that when every a more advance culture meets a underdeveloped one.  the underdeveloped one is adsorted or destroyed. 

ex- The Matrix, I robot, or Battlestar Galaticia.

Terrorism and war
There are those who can't stand to let anyone live that doesn't agree with them.  And if they would willing die for their ideas and you are ready to die for yours.  Then there will always be war, and war for a very small group against a larger group has been terrorism.  Now-a-days, The trouble is that a very small group of people with a little money and determination could knock the clay feet out of under civilization.  Just attrack our technologies and support grids.

"the more pipe, you use in the pumping, the easier it is to glog up the works."- LT CMD Montgomery "Scotty" Scott


PBH

[Valynth]

Terrorism is NOT a simple matter of size, terrorism is carrying out militarisc attacks against specific civilian targets using a nation's own freedom to bypass any military defenses.

Quite literally the only way to eliminate terrorists is to eliminate the freedom that they use to attack the civilians.

Also, civilization isn't as weak or unprepared as terrorists might wish to believe, did America collapse as they predicted when the twin towers fell?  Hell no.

About the only way that EVERYONE would be killed in a war is if they used nukes or every corrupt dictatorship in the world tried to gang-up on the U.S., U.K., Canada, and pretty much every free nation.  Of course this requires a bit of imagination to get all the dictatorships to agree on something and have enough numbers to counteract the massive tech gap.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

True

Terrorists so far have proven not very effective in their goals, but they may get lucky and get a or ten nuke, or a super virus from the old USSR stockplies. 

The only reason 9-11 was not more effective is because they were stupid and when for the biggest body count.  Cargo planes could have been just as effective and just as easy to get as an airliner back in 2001 without passager interference.   Flight 93 could have been on course for Capital Hill, if it had not crash in Pennsylvania, or the flight that hit the Pentagon, should have or could have aim for the center court yard and destroyed more of the building.  Yet, the surprise attrack has been sprang, and they know we will not stop at not shooting down planes if we must.  If our citizens do not fight and kill them first.  So they will find somewhere else where our guard is less and they can kill us.

I am just saying the terrorist will get smarter and they find a way to chip away at our society and civilization.

PBH

[Valynth]

True

Terrorists as far have proven not very effective in their goals, but they may get lucky and get a nuke, or a super virus from the old USSR stockplies. 

The only reason 9-11 was not more effective is because they were stupid and when for the biggest body count.  Cargo planes could have been just as effective and just as easy to get as an airliner back in 2001 without passager interference.   Flight 93 could have been on course for Capital Hill if it had not crash in Pennsylvania, or the flight that hit the Pentagon, should have or could have aim for the center court yard and destroyed more of the building.  The surprise attrack has been sprang, and they know we will not stop at not shooting down planes if we must.  If our citizens do not fight and kill them first.

I am just saying the terrorist will get smarter and they find a way to chip away at our society and civilization.

PBH

Assuming society is a stonework is a very dangerous misconception that has lead to the demise of many a civilization.  Society is more like a living thing, if you attack it in one way, it will not only regrow the damaged area, but it will take steps to prevent such damage again. 

For example, our airline's secruity has been significantly upgraded since then and though not perfect, it is enough to prevent most terrorist attacks.

Also, buildings can be rebuilt very fast, but population cannot.  Terrorists are ALWAYS going to attack for the most body count because population is what makes a nation.

Also the speard of HIV in Africa is more because the majority of African nations didn't listen to the U.S. and other's warning and kept on believing that if they have sex with a virgin it would be cured.  All nature did was make it, humans spread it.

As you've pointed out, the universe has no end to it's arsenel of things that could eliminate the human race, but fortunately we have yet to encounter the ones we can't stop in a relatively easy manner.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

Ah yes, and I can name a few more

Super Volcanos like Yellowstone national park, which could started a "nuclear winter" type scenario

Mass Extinction
A majority of scientists think that we are now in the midst of the sixth mass extinction. At the current rate of die-off, nearly 20 percent of all species on Earth will become extinct within 30 years. As we pollute the air and water, and destroy the species-rich rainforest, and overfish the oceans are we signing our own death warrant.

Back on Top
I believe that the 2012 DEADLINE is not stretch in stone, but we have many dangers that we ourselves made or natural ones which can and will someday kill us... The question is "Will we have the political will and the resources to stop any of them?" 

Meteor (Near Earth Object) tracking is a very low fund project, they have the number of people it takes to crew a McDonlds for 24 hours a day finding and tracking space rocks, which we can "see".   Could we know of a possible threat in time to stop one? And to stop one with today's tech it would take years to move it off-course with Earth. (maybe 5-10years just to get it off the ground)   


PBH

[Valynth]

The reason it's such a low funded project is because there really isn't a way for us to stop a meteor from hitting the earth even if we knew it was coming.  Essentially knowing about a meteor for too long will cause society to cease to be since huge masses of people will figure "what the hell" and run hog wild in roits and looting.

And yes, volcanoes can cool the earth, just look at the winter without a summer.  That should be proof enough that just cause something produces a heck of alot of CO2 doesn't mean it will warm the earth.

Also, there have been great die-offs since before human history, we're just trying not to be included in this one.

Also, CO2 is not a pollutant, plants actually thrive on it.  It's the other chemicals made by certain engines that are the real danger to our atmosphere.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

CO2 and water are not Pollution, but they are greenhouse gases... And just because they are greenhouse gases, doesn't mean  they are bad of the ecosystem, it is the amount of them in the atmosphere that is the problem..  The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere right now, is more than any time in the last 800,000 years.
And we know that CO2 levels were on the decrease during the Little Age period 13-17th centuries..

More CO2 absorbed by the oceans will raise their acidity, and a number of recent studies have concluded that this will eventually disrupt the ability of marine micro-organisms to use the calcium carbonate in the water to produce their hard parts.  This means that planton will not be able to survive in a more acidic seawater without their hard parts, and all life in the oceans may not survive.

PBH

[Brunhidden]

The reason it's such a low funded project is because there really isn't a way for us to stop a meteor from hitting the earth even if we knew it was coming.  Essentially knowing about a meteor for too long will cause society to cease to be since huge masses of people will figure "what the hell" and run hog wild in roits and looting.

actually several solutions to stop the meteor heading towards earth in 25 years exist already, many of them very low tech.


1- fly a small probe out, land it on the meteor, drill down, and use its thrusters to move it slightly to the side. downside is that landing on a meteor is tricky and it will require a great deal of minor adjusting to stay in the right direction.

2- fly a small probe out, land on meteor, drill down, place a bomb inside ala 'armageddon'. by far the stupidest solution, seeing as how drilling and landing are still an issue and now youve got a swarm of meteors, your much better to go with #3

3- fly small probe out, dont even try to land the damned thing, set off a nuke a short distance away and the force of the explosion will nudge the meteor in the right direction. its cheap, easy, and simple, the only problem is that we have a treaty saying we cannot detonate nukes in space, but i think an exception may be made.

4- okay, i dunno WHO thought of this one. fly a REALLY BIG probe out near the meteor, do not land, instead hover near it hoping the infantesimal mass of the probe will have enough gravity to tug the meteor ever so slightly. in order to clear the one mile window of doom this will have to be kept up for like ten years. obvious problems are it sounds good on paper but i highly doubt they can use minute gravity ammounts like that, also the ammount of piloting required to follow a meteor for ten years is just ludicrous

5- fly small probe out, use weak laser to gently push the meteor to the side like a solar sail. much faster and less silly then #4. but once again this requires a lot of long term piloting and adds the problem of AIM. also if the laser can push the meteor it will push the probe too.


on another note there was recently a polio outbreak in Africa. why? i thought we had a pretty darned good vaccine and gave it to everyone. well it turns out the muslum clerics have been telling people that the  vaccines given by American health officials, missionaries, and the WHO are actually concentrated doses of the HIV virus, and have only recently backed down once a great amount of their congregation has lost the ability to walk or breathe.

Apply directly to the forehead with liberal force

[Prof B Hunnydew]

I'll add that Methane is ten times as effective Greenhouse gas as CO2  And there is thousand tons of frozen of Methane in the oceans.===>

These gas hydrates are actually natural methane-water ices, which form under conditions of high pressure and low temperature in many areas worldwide. Gas hydrate is a crystalline solid consisting of gas molecules, usually methane, each surrounded by a cage of water molecules. It looks very much like water ice. Methane hydrate is stable in ocean floor sediments at water depths greater than 300 meters and, where it occurs, it is known to cement loose sediments in a surface layer up to several hundred meters thick.


There is estimated to be just one humongous lot of this methane hydrate just under the seafloor along the continental shelves and since methane is just the greenhouse gas par excellence, we better hope that the oceans don't warm up enough to turn the solid hydrate to gas.

PBH

[GabrielsThoughts]

obviously the world will sometime before 250,000 years from now when the sun expands and our mutant ofspring will  be forced to live on one of the moons of jupiter.

[Yugo]

The sun is only about halfway through its main sequence. It still has another 5 billion years with us.

[KarlOmega1]

I think that sometimes earth might go through a stage of life recycling...basicly, life begins, takes millenia to live through, dies completely, then cycle starts all over again...I like to call this a "Reformat".

[Valynth]

hmmm, I didn't know you were Mayan....

Anyway, the Mayan system of cycles is based primarily on the idea that the planets are moving in a circular motion.  This isn't true as the entire system is moving constantly through space therefore the individual planets are each moving in a three-dimensional spiral as opposed to a two dimensional circle.

Time is a line(in that it never exactly repeats), not a circle.