The Clockwork Mansion

Aary?

I want to say two things to you.

SHUT.

UP.



(My apologies for identifying more with Abel there--if not for what Aary had said earlier I'd probably be taking her side here....)

Abel did the absolute best thing he could have done. That was just... perfect.

It really is the best thing. Plus from panel 3 and 4, it looked like Aary did that just so she can see if Abel will punch her if she goaded him. Why? There's no point in punching someone blabbering on and on. :B

While I admire Abel for taking the high road and not physically assaulting her, I get the feeling that Amber is foreshadowing the main DMFA storyline here, possibly Abel's disturbing dream and his worries about his own nature. Or possibly something worse. So, again, Aary is right, but she's still not DOING it right.

And poor Mink in the background there.

Ha--Hang on a sec....   :erk

Forgive me if someone already noticed this a few pages back, but I only just noticed now....

On page 94 Abel's hairstyle goes back to the way it was earlier in Abel's Story, whereas right before that it was as in DMFA....

Quote from: Baal Hadad on April 05, 2010, 02:50:12 AM
Ha--Hang on a sec....   :erk

Forgive me if someone already noticed this a few pages back, but I only just noticed now....

On page 94 Abel's hairstyle goes back to the way it was earlier in Abel's Story, whereas right before that it was as in DMFA....

Wow, how did you notice that? But you're completely right - the bangs suddenly disappeared in the most recent updates!

Quote from: Kattuccino on April 05, 2010, 03:09:15 AM

Quote from: Baal Hadad on April 05, 2010, 02:50:12 AM
Ha--Hang on a sec....   :erk

Forgive me if someone already noticed this a few pages back, but I only just noticed now....

On page 94 Abel's hairstyle goes back to the way it was earlier in Abel's Story, whereas right before that it was as in DMFA....

Wow, how did you notice that? But you're completely right - the bangs suddenly disappeared in the most recent updates!

This is a technical error on my part. Probably due to me being incredibly unwell so I am having a harder time than normal keeping track of Abel's hairstyle.  I will fix the hair issue in a few minutes.

*SHA-ZAM*
There. Now there are bangs.  Now I may die of snifflies in peace.

I don't know if I'm just paranoid, but does anyone else here think that there's more going on here than meets the eye? I don't know why, but my gut keeps telling me Aary is goading Abel for another reason. There's a little voice my head yelling something, but I can't make out what it's saying :mowdizzy

Quote from: RandomMetaphysics on April 05, 2010, 03:17:23 AM
There's a little voice my head yelling something, but I can't make out what it's saying :mowdizzy

Therapy helps. Or so I've heard.   >:3


At least that is what the voices are telling me ...

Quote from: Amber Williams on April 05, 2010, 03:12:33 AM

This is a technical error on my part. Probably due to me being incredibly unwell so I am having a harder time than normal keeping track of Abel's hairstyle.  I will fix the hair issue in a few minutes.

*SHA-ZAM*
There. Now there are bangs.  Now I may die of snifflies in peace.

Aww poor Amber, I hope you feel better. I too am a victim of springtime sniffles so I know how it is >=(

Also, Abel totally gave Aary the "whatever" line, I bet she wants to throttle him over that. Worst. Line. Ever. I think some radio show once took a poll on the most annoying word in the English language and "whatever" was the winner. It's the best way to show you have zero interest in what the speaker is saying with the bonus of implying you have no respect for them as well. Why do I imagine Abel using this a LOT during his time at SAIA? =p

I'm also not sure what she means by the "are you" line since Abel has said maybe two words to her the whole time.

Also: Mink is adorable <3

Quote from: Kattuccino on April 05, 2010, 03:35:03 AM
I'm also not sure what she means by the "are you" line since Abel has said maybe two words to her the whole time.

Also: Mink is adorable <3

Well, she's not talking about his words, she's talking about "are you done sitting on your hands instead of taking action?"

And I forgot to PM that comment about the hair, sorry about that....

(You'd think I'd remember....)

Heh, oh Mink... you so cute.

Keep running Abel.  This is just another leg in your 400-ish year marathon.

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 03:32:24 AM

Quote from: RandomMetaphysics on April 05, 2010, 03:17:23 AM
There's a little voice my head yelling something, but I can't make out what it's saying :mowdizzy

Therapy helps. Or so I've heard.   >:3


At least that is what the voices are telling me ...

o/~ ... If you could find some way to be a little bit less afraid of me you'd see the voices that control me from inside my head say I shouldn't kill you yet...

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 02:40:42 AM
While I admire Abel for taking the high road and not physically assaulting her, I get the feeling that Amber is foreshadowing the main DMFA storyline here, possibly Abel's disturbing dream and his worries about his own nature. Or possibly something worse. So, again, Aary is right, but she's still not DOING it right.

And poor Mink in the background there.

Well she is right; it all begins with Dan (and friends). One can't run when those he care (directly or indirectly) is about to get hurt, which indirectly led to this (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_587.php). On hind-reflection, it could almost be that Aary was goading Abel to do something then...

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on April 05, 2010, 08:19:57 AM
 
o/~ ... If you could find some way to be a little bit less afraid of me you'd see the voices that control me from inside my head say I shouldn't kill you yet...

Wow someone else likes Jonathan Coulton!

On another note, poor Aary. I know this sort of people - they react to brewing argument with utter disinterest and apathy , not even bothering to dispute what you say, frustrating you to no end ... as two are needed for an argument. I hate it too

A few folks like Jonathan Coulton around these parts.

As for the person walking away from an argument, it's sad that they won't actually hear the other person out, but we all have priorities.  His currently don't lay with what she's saying so rather than rage and scream at Aary he just walks away.  As for why his interests don't lay there, well my opinion on that particular matter is already clear from previous threads.

Ice Aary:  Are you going to just keep running away?

Abel Starwind:  *thought*  Just keep running away?  Just keep running away?  
*speaks*  I'm not running.

*Outlaw Star reference*   :3

I'm probably not going to win any popularity points by saying this, but here we go.

Aary is in the right here; Abel is in the wrong. He can not run away from his problems, and somewhere in that head of his I'm sure he knows it to; but he is ignoring that, in favor of the path of least resistance. Coward.

Bravo Aaryanna, and I applaud your execution...that didn't come out right. :B

Whatever.

It's not Aaryanna's call. It's not her problems. It's not her life. She is not a trained fighter/licensed therapist. She needs to bugger off.

I can relate extremely well to Abel's reaction here. I have also had well-meaning idiots messing with my life, for my own good. And when they don't shut up or leave, I just walk away.

Boo, Aaryanna. Good intentions does not excuse bad execution.

I've been thinking about that accusation of cowardice a bit since last thread (you know the one). And I've come to the conclusion that yes, it's entirely possible that Abel is, in fact, being a coward here.

I'm not quite as convinced that that's a particularly scathing condemnation, though. While I won't go so far as to claim that literally everybody has something they're being a coward about, I feel confident enough to think that it's still a pretty common condition. And yet people seem to manage to live with it just fine -- not happily, perhaps, but it's rarely an active threat to their survival.

Moreover, accusing somebody of cowardice to goad them into something stupid you want them to do is one of the oldest cheap tricks in the book. Aaryanna may be older, better-looking, and more articulate than many other examples of the trope, but a case could still be made that she's just playing the part of the schoolyard bully in this exchange.

Quote from: Meany on April 05, 2010, 09:53:09 AM
I'm probably not going to win any popularity points by saying this, but here we go.

Aary is in the right here; Abel is in the wrong. He can not run away from his problems, and somewhere in that head of his I'm sure he knows it to; but he is ignoring that, in favor of the path of least resistance. Coward.

Bravo Aaryanna, and I applaud your execution...that didn't come out right. :B

And out come the wolves, my friend.  Out come the wolves.

Aary attempted to goad Abel to strike her, I'm thinking. And I'm also thinking that she wanted to use that as justification to beat him up. Elementary school things really. Abel's the higher person to walk away.

Now if Aary insulted his mother's honor and/or the people who he was best of friends with that also died, then he would be in the right to beat the living snot out of Aary! One does not insult the dead. >:O

If Aary wanted to goad him into striking I'm sure she could easily manage it.  Abel has a bunch of big shiny buttons that are easy to press, especially given how much he whines about them.  To me it looks like she's trying to slap some sense into him.

You can call her a schoolyard bully all you like, but how is she in any way actually bullying him?  What is she doing that in any way degrades him?  How is she forcing him to her will?  Do we even know if she has any ulterior motives in saying this to him other than being angry with him for what she sees as a mistake that could have been avoided?  Folks are making some assumptions about it, but have no facts to back it.

Until I see evidence to the contrary I'm just going to view these assumptions as white knighting a wubby.

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 10:08:57 AM
Whatever.

It's not Aaryanna's call. It's not her problems. It's not her life. She is not a trained fighter/licensed therapist. She needs to bugger off.

I disagree . Abel´s problem is a problem of everyone meeting him to some extent and i might say even the whole cubi community. Double since the interests of Dee, (and Aary, her friend and student) coincide with those of Abel, and everything would run so much smoother if he went along!
Therefore it is rightfully her business.
Triple as she is sick of hearing the tale of woe of Abel, which is the only thing he seemingly does.
I think though instead of talk, Dee should have put forward some really awe inspiring show of power  to Abel - it would convince him by shock that Aniz is not a powerful cubi at all , and might set him straight.
Though she does not seem to bother, and i do not wonder - for her he is an unimportant possiible addition in the revenge plan.
And no, Aary is not goading him to do something stupid - what they plan is both good and feasible, and it is just Abel who does not see...


True sometimes it is the case, like S.J.Lec said ¨there always are eskimos eager to advise Congo citizens how to behave in extreme heat waves ¨ but that is not Aary´s case.

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 10:08:57 AM
Boo, Aaryanna. Good intentions does not excuse bad execution.

On reflection, I can't imagine that Aaryanna had any good intentions at all here. At this point in the story(ies), there is already bad blood between Aaryanna and Abel (http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,7211.msg319212.html#msg319212). Whatever she's trying to do, she's doing for her own selfish reasons.

Quote from: A. Lurker on April 05, 2010, 10:14:22 AM
While I won't go so far as to claim that literally everybody has something they're being a coward about, I feel confident enough to think that it's still a pretty common condition. And yet people seem to manage to live with it just fine -- not happily, perhaps, but it's rarely an active threat to their survival.

I'd say that cowardice is a survival instinct. Cowards have few medals, but they live long.

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 10:35:53 AM
I disagree . Abel´s problem is a problem of everyone meeting him to some extent and i might say even the whole cubi community. Double since the interests of Dee, (and Aary, her friend and student) coincide with those of Abel, and everything would run so much smoother if he went along!
Therefore it is rightfully her business.

Dangerous thinking.

- Abel doesn't cause any problems, he just wants to be left alone.
- Everything would run so much smoother if we all just went along. But that leaves no place for individualism or free will.
- "Therefore it is rightfully her business." I can't even begin to describe how wrong that thought is, because that would involve Godwin's Law. Or Steven Seagal.

Abel's problems are the business of only 2 people:
1. Abel.
2. Fa'Lina.

Bravo, Bjalf.

Aary here reminds me of people who think you need to be converted to their particular religion in order to "save your soul," and won't get off your back until you actually do.

I'm not even going to comment on what Mao said--if you can't see it for yourself, no amount of explaining it is going to change that.

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 10:54:16 AM
Dangerous thinking.

- Abel doesn't cause any problems, he just wants to be left alone.
- Everything would run so much smoother if we all just went along. But that leaves no place for individualism or free will.
- "Therefore it is rightfully her business." I can't even begin to describe how wrong that thought is, because that would involve Godwin's Law. Or Steven Seagal.

Abel's problems are the business of only 2 people:
1. Abel.
2. Fa'Lina.

He does influence everyone else - he lives in a society! Hello!
And to go with your argument, abel´s dubious right to go on is of the same priority as aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.
Besides ,there is nothing inherently good about extreme individualism  - so far i was under the impression every society there is is collectivist about any somewhat more important matter!
I cannot seriously imagine what Godwin´s law could do with this discussion - the only wrong things about that particular moustached shouter was that he was an extreme rightwinger, warmonger and proponent of absurdly pseudoscientific racial theories which he put into action to kill a few million people , mostly Jews and Slavs. I hate him with a passion, but none of this is remotely related to topic at hand.

Quote from: Baal Hadad on April 05, 2010, 11:00:08 AM
Bravo, Bjalf.

Aary here reminds me of people who think you need to be converted to their particular religion in order to "save your soul," and won't get off your back until you actually do.

I'm not even going to comment on what Mao said--if you can't see it for yourself, no amount of explaining it is going to change that.

Hmm, it seems we are even more disparate than i thought - i have nothing against those people as it makes perfect sense from what they believe, the only problem being that it is untrue . When i meet any, i usually ¨Dorfl¨ them - as a follower of scientific atheism i argue with them until they run out of time or material.

Quote from: Baal Hadad on April 05, 2010, 11:00:08 AM
I'm not even going to comment on what Mao said--if you can't see it for yourself, no amount of explaining it is going to change that.

Except, by saying that you are commenting on what I said.  :)

The same kind of thing can easily apply to what has been said on the other side of the fence.  Everyone here picked their sides and then refuse to see anything but the parts that support their opinion.  I'm willing to entertain evidence to the contrary but, given that I'll have my own opinion on that too, it will need to be strong evidence to get me to change any of my views.

However if you're not even open to discussion, how will we ever get to that point?  This is similar to what is happening in the comic.  Rather than discuss, if you just walk away because you think someone is trying to goad you (or don't want to face what they have to say) what do you gain?  Nothing.  You don't learn from it.  You just stick your fingers in your ears and go lalalalala!  What a shame and a waste.

Why does it feel like I'm one of the few people that are divided on the storyline here?

While Aary could've said it better, her words ring true. Abel has access to a number of combat classes, and even Aniz's teacher/ex-lover! (Who has openly stated that she wants revenge, btw.) If he wanted to strike back at at Aniz, he had many, many cards in his favor. If he had taken twenty, ten, maybe even five years of his time at SAIA, he could've gone back and faced him, possibly ending him...

Conversely...

When Aniz revealed himself to Abel, it would be safe to say that it happened on THE. WORST. DAY. OF. HIS. LIFE. First, he attends a funeral for Cindy, then his childhood bully spills his guts and Abel watches helplessly as he gets killed. He runs home, only to find out that he's an incubus (And we know how well Dan took that...) and then watch as his 'father' reveals himself for who he is, reveals that he killed the man that Abel thought was his father and May thought was her husband, slaps around both him and his mother, then kills Hennya in a fit of rage. It's probably safe to say that Abel is now terrified of Aniz. What's worse, is that deep down, he's also now scared of what he's capable of. Seriously, Abel always did seem like such a gentle person, and now... He's faced with the possibility that within him is a vicious monster in the form of uncontrollable anger. So, for all appearances, for all his jerk-ness and joking, he's terrified. And since he lacks the desire fo fight, or more possibly, is scared of the thought of fighting, his only other option is to run.

Whoo lordy... I see why Fa'Lina paired Abel with Dan... They have much to learn from each other... Well, once they stop trying to kill each other, stop getting distracted, and start focusing on WHY Abel's there in the first place!

Yeah, Abel was the bigger person and didn't lash out at Aary, but I think he's afraid that once he lets out his anger, he won't be able to contain it before something terrible happens... And if he can learn to focus and manage his anger, Aniz could quickly have his hands full once 'son' confronts him... STAR WARS style! (I couldn't hold it back any longer! So sue me!)

EDIT: Oh yeah... The Chair (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_94.php)... I forgot the chair... (Chair, stool, whatever...)

<3 Star Wars. :3

I shall not sue you for this.

I agree, but that is exactly why he needs a wake-up call from someone who realises his problems are not  so insurmountable and put him in perspective.
And Aary is doing just that.

I too think a Star Wars confrontation would be awesome except both would carry the colors of Sith Red. I still think it is none of Aary's business and she should just leave him alone regardless of who is right or wrong. There is no truth here just self serving motives on both sides.

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 11:34:52 AM
. I still think it is none of Aary's business and she should just leave him alone regardless of who is right or wrong. There is no truth here just self serving motives on both sides.

Everyone´s motives are selfserving - sometimes they just coincide with common good.
Your point is?

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 11:37:22 AM

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 11:34:52 AM
. I still think it is none of Aary's business and she should just leave him alone regardless of who is right or wrong. There is no truth here just self serving motives on both sides.

Everyone´s motives are selfserving - sometimes they just coincide with common good.
Your point is?

Note that not everyone believes that danman. My point is that Abel isn't the proper authority to deal with this anyway. He may have chosen not to go confront his father and meet his mother again, but that's not really his job. And considering his age when he left, he already spent a good chunk of time with his mom. Well to those of us who can't live thousands of years it is a good chunk of time.

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 11:11:04 AM
He does influence everyone else - he lives in a society! Hello!

And that means that he should bend over backwards to please everybody else? Or does it mean that he, as a minority, seemingly creating a problem for the majority, should be forced to change or conform? By any means? Let me repeat: Dangerous thinking.

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 11:11:04 AM
And to go with your argument, abel´s dubious right to go on is of the same priority as aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.

No. Abel is minding his own business, Aaryanna is minding other people's business. Is this some kind of a constitutional amendment? The right to call on other people that you disagree with? Up close, in their face?
Edit: Like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trZQcY7gts)?   xD

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 11:11:04 AM
Besides ,there is nothing inherently good about extreme individualism  - so far i was under the impression every society there is is collectivist about any somewhat more important matter!

This is not extreme individualism, nor is it an important matter for the society.

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 11:11:04 AM
I cannot seriously imagine what Godwin´s law could do with this discussion - the only wrong things about that particular moustached shouter was that he was an extreme rightwinger, warmonger and proponent of absurdly pseudoscientific racial theories which he put into action to kill a few million people , mostly Jews and Slavs. I hate him with a passion, but none of this is remotely related to topic at hand.

I have never met him, so I have no feelings on the person either way. I retract the remark about Godwin's Law. The Steven Seagal remark stands, though. Why?

QuoteTherefore it is rightfully her business.

Quote... aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.

There are no such rights (outside of Hollywood). And no, freedom of speech does not apply here.


And again, Aaryanna is not doing this from the goodness of her heart, she has an agenda. Probably involving Dee, who cares. But why does Abel have to do the dirty work here? Why does he have to get involved at all? Can't A-beyotch kill Aniz herself?

I'm in the Bjalf camp here, myself - If someone just wants to be left alone, he should have the right to be left alone even if that makes him a coward.
Anyone who claims they have a right to come into your life and change it against your will, are generally wrong to do so.



On a sidenote : Amber, you are not allowed to die from the snifflies. :D

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 12:09:49 PM
I'm in the Bjalf camp here, myself - If someone just wants to be left alone, he should have the right to be left alone even if that makes him a coward.
Anyone who claims they have a right to come into your life and change it against your will, are generally wrong to do so.

This is a good point and I too support this idea. Invading ones personal life and shoving your beliefs on someone is not a good thing to do.

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 12:09:49 PM
On a sidenote : Amber, you are not allowed to die from the snifflies. :D

Well, she still can, but bringing her back won't be pretty...

Oh wait, we don't need her body, just her soul. I wonder if anyone knows a spirit medium on par with Anna from Shaman King...

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 11:54:49 AM

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 11:11:04 AM
He does influence everyone else - he lives in a society! Hello!

And that means that he should bend over backwards to please everybody else? Or does it mean that he, as a minority, seemingly creating a problem for the majority, should be forced to change or conform? By any means? Let me repeat: Dangerous thinking.

In this case it is the best for him and for everyone else. Therefore i cannot blame Aary or others to try to drive him this way.
It is dangerous thinking on your side that someone´s nonsense should be respected instead of something being done, even if that makes others´ situation worse. Aary is at least as right in minding his business as he is in doing whatever he does. I am not proposing legally forcing him to comply with her, but stating that everyone should be tiptoeing around him is just misguided.

Quote
 No. Abel is minding his own business, Aaryanna is minding other people's business. Is this some kind of a constitutional amendment? The right to call on other people that you disagree with? Up close, in their face?

Yeah, there is - it is called a  common social interaction. You do not really need a right for that. In the same way Abel needs no license to whine to everyone who he meets.
And, i value such people thousand times more than someone who will smile to your face and drop a septic at you behind your back.

Quote
This is not extreme individualism, nor is it an important matter for the society.

In any case this is something that concerns others as well, therefore it is their matter too - the society was just mentioned as an undisputable counterexample to ¨individualism is always best¨

Quote
I have never met him, so I have no feelings on the person either way. I retract the remark about Godwin's Law. The Steven Seagal remark stands, though. Why?

:D probably because i know little of Steven Seagal, although my uncle quite likes watching his films.

Quote

QuoteTherefore it is rightfully her business.

Quote... aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.

There are no such rights (outside of Hollywood). And no, freedom of speech does not apply here.

Yeah, i know - it only applies when someone we agree with is speaking ...

Quote
And again, Aaryanna is not doing this from the goodness of her heart, she has an agenda. Probably involving Dee, who cares. But why does Abel have to do the dirty work here? Why does he have to get involved at all? Can't A-beyotch kill Aniz herself?

Who cares why she is doing it ? I already mentioned something about that.
Besides there is a good reason - one is that it would be so much fun to help his son kill the @#$ himself!
Besides if he was cheated out of his revenge, it would be bad for him, too - it would make it much harder to sort out his problems..




EDIT:

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 12:13:39 PM
This is a good point and I too support this idea. Invading ones personal life and shoving your beliefs on someone is not a good thing to do.

Oh, so arguing with someone in public who equally whines in public is now called invading ones personal life
I see... wait , i don´t!

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 12:20:53 PM

Quote
And again, Aaryanna is not doing this from the goodness of her heart, she has an agenda. Probably involving Dee, who cares. But why does Abel have to do the dirty work here? Why does he have to get involved at all? Can't A-beyotch kill Aniz herself?

Who cares why she is doing it ? I already mentioned something about that.
Besides there is a good reason - one is that it would be so much fun to help his son kill the @#$ himself!
Besides if he was cheated out of his revenge, it would be bad for him, too - it would make it much harder to sort out his problems..

Have you ever had the pleasure of getting revenge on someone who has wronged you? To some, it does nothing to help them. To a few, it's just business. There are also those who despise themselves after the act. Then there are those who really did need revenge, and it lifts the burden off their shoulders, but we don't know if Abel is this type of person. Obviously this is just a small list of reactions to revenge. What is killing the person who wronged you going to do? Is life gonna be all butterflies and rainbows after this evil wicked villain has been slain? Maybe since this is a fairytale, but in the real world, it just removes a man you disagree with from being a threat. Some people don't need that.

EDIT:

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 12:20:53 PM

EDIT:

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 12:13:39 PM
This is a good point and I too support this idea. Invading ones personal life and shoving your beliefs on someone is not a good thing to do.

Oh, so arguing with someone in public who equally whines in public is now called invading ones personal life
I see... wait , i don´t!

What I mean is that its his own personal business. She is confronting him to try to get him to see things her way and deal with his problems the way she wants him to deal with them. That sounds like trying to invade someones personal life and shoving your beliefs on someone.

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 12:35:14 PM


Have you ever had the pleasure of getting revenge on someone who has wronged you? To some, it does nothing to help them. To a few, it's just business. There are also those who despise themselves after the act. Then there are those who really did need revenge, and it lifts the burden off their shoulders, but we don't know if Abel is this type of person. Obviously this is just a small list of reactions to revenge. What is killing the person who wronged you going to do? Is life gonna be all butterflies and rainbows after this evil wicked villain has been slain? Maybe since this is a fairytale, but in the real world, it just removes a man you disagree with from being a threat. Some people don't need that.

Hmm, now it is getting somewhere...
No, it is not going to be butterflies etc just because, but it still beats someone removing Aniz as-is without abel doing anything in the process, or leaving him to cook in his own juices - and those that agree with him or pity him just reinforce his helplessness mindset.
In other words it is the best of the available options.
As for the first mention, yes, in not-so-huge ways, and it is one of awesomest feelings ever...

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 12:46:29 PM

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 12:35:14 PM


Have you ever had the pleasure of getting revenge on someone who has wronged you? To some, it does nothing to help them. To a few, it's just business. There are also those who despise themselves after the act. Then there are those who really did need revenge, and it lifts the burden off their shoulders, but we don't know if Abel is this type of person. Obviously this is just a small list of reactions to revenge. What is killing the person who wronged you going to do? Is life gonna be all butterflies and rainbows after this evil wicked villain has been slain? Maybe since this is a fairytale, but in the real world, it just removes a man you disagree with from being a threat. Some people don't need that.

Hmm, now it is getting somewhere...
No, it is not going to be butterflies etc just because, but it still beats someone removing Aniz as-is without abel doing anything in the process, or leaving him to cook in his own juices - and those that agree with him or pity him just reinforce his helplessness mindset.
In other words it is the best of the available options.
As for the first mention, yes, in not-so-huge ways, and it is one of awesomest feelings ever...

There is more than one way to deal with these kinds of things. What is so wrong with letting the authorities or a qualified person  deal with Aniz? He does need a good kick to the behind to get him going and stop his moping and what not. However I would argue that revenge might not be the best thing to get him going right now. What if him killing Aniz sparks something inside him he never wanted to bring out? He may know things about himself we don't. Can he handle killing someone even in self defense? If he can't, then simply killing his father may destroy him more than doing nothing.

I would also like to bring something else up. You know if Aniz succeeds in the resurrection of his clan, won't he be regarded as a hero way down the line, at least by his clan? You know, the whole ends justifies the means argument? Is what Aniz did really any worse than devouring the souls of your enemies or anyone else you feel like destroying that day?

I think it's far more safer that Abel just walks away.

She takes me as a character who just can't stop arguing till she gets it her way..... Well at least until Dan learned to control his wings to make shadow puppet's that is.  :P

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 12:09:49 PM
On a sidenote : Amber, you are not allowed to die from the snifflies. :D

She's good, she sees magenta. If she could smell or taste it, then I'd worry.

And snifflies can be fun. Rainbow-coloured snot is totally awesome!

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 12:20:53 PM
In this case it is the best for him and for everyone else.

Who decides what is best for him and everyone else? And how does that give a license to force Abel's cooperation against his will? Are you saying that it's best for everyone, including Abel, that he kills his own father?  :erk

QuoteIt is dangerous thinking on your side that someone´s nonsense should be
respected instead of something being done, even if that makes others´ situation worse.

Who decides what is nonsense and not? The one who shouts loudest?

Quote
Yeah, there is - it is called a  common social interaction. You do not really need a right for that. In the same way Abel needs no license to whine to everyone who he meets.

If that was common social interaction, then I hereby resign from society. Anyway, it was not Abel that walked up to Aary and started whining.

Quote

Quote
This is not extreme individualism, nor is it an important matter for the society.

In any case this is something that concerns others as well, therefore it is their matter too - the society was just mentioned as an undisputable counterexample to ¨individualism is always best¨

The perceived comfort of the majority does not trump the needs of the few.

Quote

Quote

QuoteTherefore it is rightfully her business.

Quote... aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.

There are no such rights (outside of Hollywood). And no, freedom of speech does not apply here.

Yeah, i know - it only applies when someone we agree with is speaking ...

No, you have completely missed the point.  Freedom of speech does not extend to getting into other people's face. For instance, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trZQcY7gts) is not freedom of speech. Outside a military camp that would be classified as assault. There are no absolute rights.

Quote
Who cares why she is doing it ? I already mentioned something about that.
Besides there is a good reason - one is that it would be so much fun to help his son kill the @#$ himself!

Yes, a regular Mother Teresa, that one. She also had an unhealthy affinity for pain.
- Hey, Abel, let's make you a killer! It'll be fun! You'll cherish the memory for the rest of your life!

Quote
Besides if he was cheated out of his revenge, it would be bad for him, too - it would make it much harder to sort out his problems..

There is just so much wrong with what you said there. But it's a common thought, and it's keeping therapists with expensive cars and homes.

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 12:20:53 PM

Quote
 No. Abel is minding his own business, Aaryanna is minding other people's business. Is this some kind of a constitutional amendment? The right to call on other people that you disagree with? Up close, in their face?

Yeah, there is - it is called a  common social interaction. You do not really need a right for that. In the same way Abel needs no license to whine to everyone who he meets.

Okay, maybe it's just me, but when did Abel whine about any of the stuff that's happened to him in public? Yeah, he's moping, but Mink doesn't seem to know what was going on in Abel's life: if Abel was actually whining about his life, Mink would be among the first to know. People like Destania and Aaryanna know because the teachers know and Aaryanna is more-or-less Destania's favorite student. So, people know because of the rumor mill. So far, all Abel has done on-screen is keep to himself and not talk to anyone, and yes, not deal with his problems. Abel had to hear Mink talk about his story of woe before Abel even mentioned anything about his life. So, unless I missed something, Abel hasn't whined about his family life at all, and in fact has not even MENTIONED it. Saying "She was wonderful" does not count as whining. So, if Abel wants to keep to himself about his problems, what right does Aaryanna have to barge into his life and tell him what to do?

Now, as for Abel's reaction, yes, it could always be better. Yes, Aaryanna is technically right in what she is saying to Abel. But she is saying it wrong, and Abel will have to deal with his own problems: we see this in DMFA-proper. Moreover, maybe it's just me, but someone who drains a knight's soul from his body and then forgets about it might not be the best person to talk about for issues of revenge. Every person is different, and Abel is no different. Were Dan in his circumstances, he'd react differently, but this is how Abel is going to react. As badly as he is reacting, he is entitled to his own choices, especially since the only two people he's hurting are himself and his mother. No one else in this school is hurt by ONE incubus deciding not to hang out with other cubi and talk with them. Abel didn't go out of his way to have this conversation with Aary and then just ignore her advice, she came to him and told him what she would have done, whether he wanted to hear it or not. Yes, he should have reacted better, but Aaryanna is doing this wrong.

And Jasonrevall is right. Revenge is tricky. In Abel's case, I truly believe it would drive him absolutely INSANE. He'd have to be locked up in a padded and isolated room at SAIA. Abel couldn't even react well enough in a combat situation to save his own life: how would he react to planning to murder someone?

Uh, since when has anyone said that Not-so-Abel *doesn't* have the option to have his revenge be putting Aniz somewhere he can't hurt anyone anymore?  So far, every time anyone says 'revenge' on Aniz, the other camp starts going on about killing him.  I'm pretty sure it's been clarified many times over that there are many ways to deal with a threat that don't even involve any force.

Frankly, it just looks like an attempt to twist the argument and plea for sympathy.  "Look at those bad people siding with Aary!  They're violent hate mongers!  All they think about is violence and killing!  Blinded by violent video games and movies!"  I'll say it again:  Plenty of ways to neutralize a threat and plenty of ways to exact revenge.

Many of the people involved don't want to kill Aniz.  Some do,  no doubt about that.  However none of them want to act without Not-so-Abel.  This is, in many ways his battle, but it affects a lot of people and so they DO have a say in it.  Particularly if they see themselves as a friend.  Bad blood between Not-so-Abel and Aary?  I've not seen it at this point in the story.  Rivalry?  Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't, on some level, friends.  I had a fellow who was my rival for scholarships and marks in high school.  We got along great, and still do, even though he kicked my butt on it (though I did steal some non-monetary rewards that he really wanted).

Also: We don't even know that Aary has met Dee yet or that she's a huge fan of hers yet.  So to assume that she's doing this on Dee's behalf seems a little flimsy, but not impossible.

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 12:35:14 PM
What I mean is that its his own personal business. She is confronting him to try to get him to see things her way and deal with his problems the way she wants him to deal with them. That sounds like trying to invade someones personal life and shoving your beliefs on someone.

You mean like trying to argue with someone else that their opinion is wrong?

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 01:03:12 PM



I would also like to bring something else up. You know if Aniz succeeds in the resurrection of his clan, won't he be regarded as a hero way down the line, at least by his clan? You know, the whole ends justifies the means argument? Is what Aniz did really any worse than devouring the souls of your enemies or anyone else you feel like destroying that day?

Last post today , but this was intriguing... and made me think I guess Aniz´s actions are mostly just in counter to goals of characters i sympathise with, making me dislike him even more, so part of it is simple side taking.
As for a general justification, he seems to be messing up many things, such as Cubi-Zinvth rep relations, and likely to continue that way so his existance is likely threat to political and military goals of cubi race as whole ... him being an insane mess-it-up does not help either.
At absolute minimum killing him would prevent creation of a few more nervewrecked cubi like Abel, which is a good general goal by itself...  8)

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 01:24:42 PM
Uh, since when has anyone said that Not-so-Abel *doesn't* have the option to have his revenge be putting Aniz somewhere he can't hurt anyone anymore?  So far, every time anyone says 'revenge' on Aniz, the other camp starts going on about killing him.  I'm pretty sure it's been clarified many times over that there are many ways to deal with a threat that don't even involve any force.

Frankly, it just looks like an attempt to twist the argument and plea for sympathy.  "Look at those bad people siding with Aary!  They're violent hate mongers!  All they think about is violence and killing!  Blinded by violent video games and movies!"  I'll say it again:  Plenty of ways to neutralize a threat and plenty of ways to exact revenge.

Many of the people involved don't want to kill Aniz.  Some do,  no doubt about that.  However none of them want to act without Not-so-Abel.  This is, in many ways his battle, but it affects a lot of people and so they DO have a say in it.  Particularly if they see themselves as a friend.  Bad blood between Not-so-Abel and Aary?  I've not seen it at this point in the story.  Rivalry?  Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't, on some level, friends.  I had a fellow who was my rival for scholarships and marks in high school.  We got along great, and still do, even though he kicked my butt on it (though I did steal some non-monetary rewards that he really wanted).

Also: We don't even know that Aary has met Dee yet or that she's a huge fan of hers yet.  So to assume that she's doing this on Dee's behalf seems a little flimsy, but not impossible.

Quote from: Jasonrevall on April 05, 2010, 12:35:14 PM
What I mean is that its his own personal business. She is confronting him to try to get him to see things her way and deal with his problems the way she wants him to deal with them. That sounds like trying to invade someones personal life and shoving your beliefs on someone.

You mean like trying to argue with someone else that their opinion is wrong?

In regards to the non lethal punishment, that is a fantastic idea. Abel could have worked together with the people to incarcerate his father. Now it may have gone wrong and someone could get killed, but I think it would be preferable. Also he himself wouldn't necessarily have to kill him, the authorities could take care of that with the death penalty. Also in some cases I believe that it has been stated that the revenge should involve death by those who supported the revenge.

Also about the arguing opinions. We are in a place that is designed for this, Aary is getting up in Abel's face and disrespecting his privacy. I am not saying your opinion is wrong either. How bout we agree to disagree? Also you're playing this vilianizing thing way up.

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 01:24:42 PM
Bad blood between Not-so-Abel and Aary?  I've not seen it at this point in the story.  Rivalry?  Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't, on some level, friends.

I haven't seen it myself either, but according to the fraggle (http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,7211.msg319212.html#msg319212) ...

I'm surprised at how many thinks it's right to invade another persons life on the gounds of "it's for his own good".
We don't *know* what is for his own good, unless he directly asks for something.
And acting against his will, "on his behalf", is really seriously impolite.

I see religious people do this everyday, calling it divine intervention.
I've been subjected to that once, when I worked for a while america, because *gasp* I was an atheist!
Pulled the bloody wanker into court and had a restraining order put on him.

Quote from: Drayco84 on April 05, 2010, 12:15:07 PM

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 12:09:49 PM
On a sidenote : Amber, you are not allowed to die from the snifflies. :D

Well, she still can, but bringing her back won't be pretty...

Oh wait, we don't need her body, just her soul. I wonder if anyone knows a spirit medium on par with Anna from Shaman King...

Friends don't let friends become zombies.

:zombiekun2

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 01:41:25 PM
I haven't seen it myself either, but according to the fraggle (http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,7211.msg319212.html#msg319212) ...

Bad history (to me, of course) doesn't mean that they aren't at the Rival stage at this point.  The thing is, we don't know *how* they currently feel about one another.  There's the distinct possibility that she's only angry because on some level she cares.  It's also just as likely she's being a bitch.  Thing is, we don't know.

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 01:24:42 PM
Uh, since when has anyone said that Not-so-Abel *doesn't* have the option to have his revenge be putting Aniz somewhere he can't hurt anyone anymore?  So far, every time anyone says 'revenge' on Aniz, the other camp starts going on about killing him.  I'm pretty sure it's been clarified many times over that there are many ways to deal with a threat that don't even involve any force.

Frankly, it just looks like an attempt to twist the argument and plea for sympathy.  "Look at those bad people siding with Aary!  They're violent hate mongers!  All they think about is violence and killing!  Blinded by violent video games and movies!"  I'll say it again:  Plenty of ways to neutralize a threat and plenty of ways to exact revenge.

Many of the people involved don't want to kill Aniz.  Some do,  no doubt about that.  However none of them want to act without Not-so-Abel.  This is, in many ways his battle, but it affects a lot of people and so they DO have a say in it.  Particularly if they see themselves as a friend.  Bad blood between Not-so-Abel and Aary?  I've not seen it at this point in the story.  Rivalry?  Sure but that doesn't mean they aren't, on some level, friends.  I had a fellow who was my rival for scholarships and marks in high school.  We got along great, and still do, even though he kicked my butt on it (though I did steal some non-monetary rewards that he really wanted).

No, you are right, some people DON'T want Aniz dead. I'd argue that some want him WORSE. Destania in particular might enjoy having a little torture toy to play with for a few millennia. Fa'Lina would have handed him over to one of the other clans if it weren't for the politics involved, and I doubt that he'd have much fun there either. And if Kria had gotten her hands on him... well, she'd probably eat him, after making his life a living hell. Yes, there are ways of bloodlessly getting your revenge on someone, but most of the people involved probably don't want that. And offhand, I don't think Abel has ANY friends at SAIA, rivals or otherwise. The closest thing he has to a friend seems to be Mink. And I'd also say that non-lethal means of neutralizing people and revenge are much more difficult. And really, how many ways ARE there to get revenge on Aniz without killing him? We don't really know what his long-term plans are, so we really can't prevent them that way for revenge. And plus, this is Aaryanna. Her revenge on Aniz would only be bloodless in the sense of "sucking someone's soul out is technically bloodless." And if there isn't bad blood between Abel and Aary yet, there probably is now.

Look, here's my opinion: Abel reacted badly, Aaryanna is saying some good stuff, but she's doing it wrong. And that's my take on the matter.

As a minor sidenote, I've always heard it spelled "woobie."

Gyah, ninja'ed by Jasonerevall.

Also, Anker makes a good point: Abel does not want Aaryanna's opinion, so she should butt out.

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 01:49:15 PM
As a minor sidenote, I've always heard it spelled "woobie."

I've heard both.  As long as the point is conveyed I guess. xD

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 01:49:15 PM
Also, Anker makes a good point: Abel does not want Aaryanna's opinion, so she should butt out.

True, but the way I see it:  She's free to say and think whatever she likes.  Doesn't mean he has to stay there, listen or accept it.

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 01:49:15 PMhow many ways ARE there to get revenge on Aniz without killing him?

Now, this is an interesting thought, I guess I'll go first.

• 1. Use magic to neuter him, no children, no problem.
  
• 2. Use magic to turn him into a woman, women have tighter ties to children, which might change his ways.
  
• 3. Force him to join another clan, that way he would no longer be able to revive the Saia clan, and he'd have a clanleader to keep him on the straight and narrow path of adventure slaying.
  
• 4. Lock him in a basement and throw the key away.

Ok, so the last one was pretty nasty, but technically it's bloodless. :D

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 01:53:51 PM

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 01:49:15 PMAlso, Anker makes a good point: Abel does not want Aaryanna's opinion, so she should butt out.

True, but the way I see it:  She's free to say and think whatever she likes.  Doesn't mean he has to stay there, listen or accept it.

Obviously his actions have already told us what he thought of it. :D

Edit : Darn replies while I was posting.

Just a thought: Maybe he doesn't want to harm his father even though his father has caused so much harm. Maybe he just want to leave all that behind, stop having people being hurt?

Quote from: Psaakyrn on April 05, 2010, 02:06:47 PM
Just a thought: Maybe he doesn't want to harm his father even though his father has caused so much harm. Maybe he just want to leave all that behind, stop having people being hurt?

He may not want to harm his father, but I think it's safe to say Abel hates Aniz with Every. Fiber. Of. His. Being.

Also, that lil' voice in my head finally shouted loud enough. I'm thinking this is Aary's way of venting jealousy. Destania once said she had a deep interest in Abel... maybe that attention got on Aary's nerves? Meh, it's a theory.

In honesty (concerning the current situation), while I expected nothing less of Abel, I was hoping he would punch Aary.

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 01:15:00 PM

Quote

Quote

QuoteTherefore it is rightfully her business.

Quote... aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.

There are no such rights (outside of Hollywood). And no, freedom of speech does not apply here.

Yeah, i know - it only applies when someone we agree with is speaking ...

No, you have completely missed the point.  Freedom of speech does not extend to getting into other people's face. For instance, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trZQcY7gts) is not freedom of speech. Outside a military camp that would be classified as assault. There are no absolute rights.

I'm going to poke at this little monster here:  I'm sorry, but that is entirely dependent on where you live.

Frankly, if anyone were to try and take Aary to court over what she's doing right now where I live, they'd be not only laughed out of the court, but possibly slapped with a fine for a frivolous lawsuit.  She is in a public place, speaking her mind concerning someone and their behavior.  She is in no way being violent, saying anything slanderous or even being outwardly aggressive.  She is not preventing him from leaving.  She is not inciting a riot against or even hatred against him.  In short:  She's not doing anything illegal.  This isn't harassment, this is a person exercising freedom of speech well within the confines of the law as I know it.

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 01:24:42 PM
Many of the people involved don't want to kill Aniz.

Actually, there's quite a lot of "I'm going to kill you!" in the comic. Even between friends. A super-quick check gives me strips 197, 202, 240, 409, 432, 519, 577, 585, 624, 670, 682, 700, 736, 778, 934, ... And just about everything involving Aary. So problem-solving in the DMFA universe seems to be:
1. kill it
2. didn't work, try something else

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 01:46:31 PM
I see religious people do this everyday, calling it divine intervention.

Strange how divine intervention needs mere mortals to work   :rolleyes

Quote
Pulled the bloody wanker into court ...

He was obviously doing it wrong.   :(

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 01:53:51 PM

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 01:49:15 PM
Also, Anker makes a good point: Abel does not want Aaryanna's opinion, so she should butt out.

True, but the way I see it:  She's free to say and think whatever she likes.  Doesn't mean he has to stay there, listen or accept it.

This is how I see it, too. Speak your mind (from a minimum distance), no libel please, and nobody can be made to listen.


Dang, I can't even slip a post in sideways in this thread!

Quote from: RandomMetaphysics on April 05, 2010, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Psaakyrn on April 05, 2010, 02:06:47 PM
Just a thought: Maybe he doesn't want to harm his father even though his father has caused so much harm. Maybe he just want to leave all that behind, stop having people being hurt?

He may not want to harm his father, but I think it's safe to say Abel hates Aniz with Every. Fiber. Of. His. Being.

Also, that lil' voice in my head finally shouted loud enough. I'm thinking this is Aary's way of venting jealousy. Destania once said she had a deep interest in Abel... maybe that attention got on Aary's nerves? Meh, it's a theory.

In honesty (concerning the current situation), while I expected nothing less of Abel, I was hoping he would punch Aary.

*blinks*
Oooh... that's an interesting interpretation. And we could possibly take that a step further: Abel has the resources available to do almost anything he wants in pursuit of his revenge, and yet he doesn't take it. It could also be Aaryanna frustrated that Abel isn't taking this chance that is handed to him on a golden platter, a chance and resources that she's only dreamed of. But yeah, interesting idea of yours. Considering Aaryanna's near affection for Destania shown in the proper comic...

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 02:27:08 PM

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 01:15:00 PM

Quote

Quote

QuoteTherefore it is rightfully her business.

Quote... aary´s right to call him on being an useless whiner.

There are no such rights (outside of Hollywood). And no, freedom of speech does not apply here.

Yeah, i know - it only applies when someone we agree with is speaking ...

No, you have completely missed the point.  Freedom of speech does not extend to getting into other people's face. For instance, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trZQcY7gts) is not freedom of speech. Outside a military camp that would be classified as assault. There are no absolute rights.

I'm going to poke at this little monster here:  I'm sorry, but that is entirely dependent on where you live.

Frankly, if anyone were to try and take Aary to court over what she's doing right now where I live, they'd be not only laughed out of the court, but possibly slapped with a fine for a frivolous lawsuit.  She is in a public place, speaking her mind concerning someone and their behavior.  She is in no way being violent, saying anything slanderous or even being outwardly aggressive.  She is not preventing him from leaving.  She is not inciting a riot against or even hatred against him.  In short:  She's not doing anything illegal.  This isn't harassment, this is a person exercising freedom of speech well within the confines of the law as I know it.

I'm gonna agree with Mao here. What Aaryanna is doing here isn't assault, or at least doesn't seem to be. Abel is also equally in his rights to turn around and ignore her, to tell her his reasoning and try to make her see his side of the argument, or possibly even to tell her to go screw herself. Now, if she were to start stalking him and constantly yelling at him about how he's failed as a Cubi, then we might have something, but as it is now, yes, she is well within her rights.

Tilts Jaurus' quote stack - Wheeeee.  :D

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 02:29:24 PM

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 01:46:31 PMI see religious people do this everyday, calling it divine intervention.

Strange how divine intervention needs mere mortals to work   :rolleyes

He he, yeah - Apperantly god needs their help.
Me, I prefer to have faith in unicorns.

:D

Apparently I'm between the two camps. How odd for me. While Aary does have a point, she's not getting it across in an effective manner--or at least, not one that would be effective on Abel. :) And Abel DOES need to deal with his issues... buuuut probably not through killing/maiming his dad. Even though death's probably the best option for a guy who can punch through walls. :U

@Anker: Are they invisible pink unicorns?

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 02:43:40 PM
Tilts Jaurus' quote stack - Wheeeee.  :D

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 02:29:24 PM

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 01:46:31 PMI see religious people do this everyday, calling it divine intervention.

Strange how divine intervention needs mere mortals to work   :rolleyes

He he, yeah - Apperantly god needs their help.
Me, I prefer to have faith in unicorns.

:D

Invisible pink ones? :3

I like George Carlin's take on the issue. All-powerful God, and he just can't seem to hold onto money. Tsk tsk.

Quote from: Robbychu on April 05, 2010, 02:51:54 PM
Apparently I'm between the two camps. How odd for me. While Aary does have a point, she's not getting it across in an effective manner--or at least, not one that would be effective on Abel. :) And Abel DOES need to deal with his issues... buuuut probably not through killing/maiming his dad. Even though death's probably the best option for a guy who can punch through walls. :U

@Anker: Are they invisible pink unicorns?

NINJA'ED! Curse you!

But yeah, I'm in the same camp as you. Don't worry. Though I do feel that Abel at this point just isn't up to recovering. He's taken an important first step with talking to his mom, ever so briefly, but it'll be a while before he's gotten it all worked through.

Quote from: Robbychu on April 05, 2010, 02:51:54 PM@Anker: Are they invisible pink unicorns?

Well, obviously they are invisible, elseway someone might just steal them from me !!!  :U

Quote from: Jairus on April 05, 2010, 02:33:27 PM

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 02:27:08 PM

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 01:15:00 PM
No, you have completely missed the point.  Freedom of speech does not extend to getting into other people's face. For instance, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trZQcY7gts) is not freedom of speech. Outside a military camp that would be classified as assault. There are no absolute rights.

I'm going to poke at this little monster here:  I'm sorry, but that is entirely dependent on where you live.

Frankly, if anyone were to try and take Aary to court over what she's doing right now where I live, ...

I'm gonna agree with Mao here. What Aaryanna is doing here isn't assault, or at least doesn't seem to be. Abel is also equally in his rights to turn around and ignore her, to tell her his reasoning and try to make her see his side of the argument, or possibly even to tell her to go screw herself. Now, if she were to start stalking him and constantly yelling at him about how he's failed as a Cubi, then we might have something, but as it is now, yes, she is well within her rights.

The assault comment was not about Aary, but the musclehead in the youtube link. I really wouldn't want to live in a place where that is an acceptable expression of freedom of speech.

Quote from: Robbychu on April 05, 2010, 02:51:54 PM
Apparently I'm between the two camps. How odd for me. While Aary does have a point, she's not getting it across in an effective manner--or at least, not one that would be effective on Abel. :) And Abel DOES need to deal with his issues... buuuut probably not through killing/maiming his dad. Even though death's probably the best option for a guy who can punch through walls. :U

Doesn't need to kill or maim his dad at all.  If Kria can make an impenetrable place (though that may have been a more recent discovery as it happened in the main arc) I'm sure a government or authority could too.  Locking him up might be the safest solution.  Could even try and find a way to appeal to his sensibilities (I know, that one's a stretch when you consider that Aniz is a bit out of his gourd).  It's not good for trying to rebuild a clan if you're pissing people off.  Particularly some of the folks Aniz has been managing to irk.

Don't worry, the nasty musclehead has brought upon himself an eternity of waxing the unholy Purple Oyster's shell.  :)

QuoteDoesn't mean he has to stay there, listen or accept it.

Well, what do you know?  What he is doing is walking away.  So, he isn't staying there, listening, or accepting it.  It seems that, on that point at least, he is doing the right thing.

I can't tell what the squiggly's expression is in that last panel.  He doesn't look worried, or surprised... kinda blank.  Opinions, anyone?  

Also, I'm very much of the opinion that this strip foreshadows the main comic.  Fa'Lina kicked Abel out of the Academy, and now Bad Things are happening.  I'm thinking crap is going to hit the fan soon.  

Quote from: Pvblivs on April 05, 2010, 03:16:54 PM

QuoteDoesn't mean he has to stay there, listen or accept it.

Well, what do you know?  What he is doing is walking away.  So, he isn't staying there, listening, or accepting it.  It seems that, on that point at least, he is doing the right thing.

A wild troll has been spotted! 

What will you do?

  Fight Run
  Item  Capture
>Counter

Whether it's the 'right' choice or not is strictly a matter of opinion.  Seems to me that it's just more of him running away.  Nice try at a dig at me though.  Mad props.

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
Whether it's the 'right' choice or not is strictly a matter of opinion.  Seems to me that it's just more of him running away.  Nice try at a dig at me though.  Mad props.

Criticizing him for walking away (even by calling it "running away") is tantamount to saying he has to stay there and listen.  It's just a point of consistency.  Which is it that you believe?  Does he have an obigation to stay there and listen?  Or is walking away a perfectly acceptable thing to do?

When people said that Abel was a coward for not going back to Zinvth earlier, they were essentially saying that he had an obligation to do so and that he failed to meet the obligation.  (I don't think we have enough information to judge whether he had such an obligation or not.)  Even though I think the position was adopted on insufficient evidence, it was, at least, a consistent position.

The situation with Aaryanna is different.  She is just a fellow student sticking her nose in uninvited.  He, therefore, has no obligation to stick around.  He is exercising what you, yourself, recognized as a valid option.  So, on this one point (dealing with Aaryanna) he is doing the right thing.

I make no determination on whether the points Arryanna is trying to make are valid in themselves.  But I do note that it is not her place to make them.  Fa'lina could make them.  Or perhaps a school counselor could make them.  That would also be an instance of cooler heads prevailing.

Quote from: danman on April 05, 2010, 10:35:53 AM
I disagree . Abel´s problem is a problem of everyone meeting him to some extent and i might say even the whole cubi community. Double since the interests of Dee, (and Aary, her friend and student) coincide with those of Abel, and everything would run so much smoother if he went along!
Therefore it is rightfully her business.
Triple as she is sick of hearing the tale of woe of Abel, which is the only thing he seemingly does.
I think though instead of talk, Dee should have put forward some really awe inspiring show of power  to Abel - it would convince him by shock that Aniz is not a powerful cubi at all , and might set him straight.
Though she does not seem to bother, and i do not wonder - for her he is an unimportant possiible addition in the revenge plan.
And no, Aary is not goading him to do something stupid - what they plan is both good and feasible, and it is just Abel who does not see...


True sometimes it is the case, like S.J.Lec said ¨there always are eskimos eager to advise Congo citizens how to behave in extreme heat waves ¨ but that is not Aary´s case.

Heyo, just registered.  Anywho.

I really don't fault Abel for his actions or lack thereof.  Aary has always seemed to have this whole "rah rah rah! Go Cubi!" overdrive level of pride when it comes to her heritage.  So she ends up pushing those such as Abel or Dan away who have a little more moral baggage when it comes to accepting their "monstrous" heritage.

So Aary is miffed that not only did Abel not choose to side with her "BFF" Destiana(sp), but also did not plunge headlong into learning to tap into his heritage.  But what she doesn't realize is that Abel's dad killed his mythos friend using cubi powers for reasons relating to cubi political machinations.  So going Aary's route could make Abel fearful that he would be becoming what he hates in his father.

I can totally empathize with Abel in this situation.  Heck.  I think if all the terribleness that happened to Abel happened to me I would spend most of my time in a vegetative stupor, only to rouse to attempt to slice of mine own headwings or shriek bloody murder whenever so much as any other cubi like even Mink entered the room.

Quote from: Pvblivs on April 05, 2010, 04:11:26 PM
Criticizing him for walking away (even by calling it "running away") is tantamount to saying he has to stay there and listen.  It's just a point of consistency.  Which is it that you believe?  Does he have an obigation to stay there and listen?  Or is walking away a perfectly acceptable thing to do?

When people said that Abel was a coward for not going back to Zinvth earlier, they were essentially saying that he had an obligation to do so and that he failed to meet the obligation.  (I don't think we have enough information to judge whether he had such an obligation or not.)  Even though I think the position was adopted on insufficient evidence, it was, at least, a consistent position.

The situation with Aaryanna is different.  She is just a fellow student sticking her nose in uninvited.  He, therefore, has no obligation to stick around.  He is exercising what you, yourself, recognized as a valid option.  So, on this one point (dealing with Aaryanna) he is doing the right thing.

I make no determination on whether the points Arryanna is trying to make are valid in themselves.  But I do note that it is not her place to make them.  Fa'lina could make them.  Or perhaps a school counselor could make them.  That would also be an instance of cooler heads prevailing.

Tantamount to saying that he has to?  No, it isn't.  Saying what I feel is the right choice does not imply any sort of obligation.  I am not obliged to be nice to anyone.  I think it's the best solution, but I am by no means bound to do so.

No one was saying anything about 'duty' or 'obligation'.  People have their own feelings on what they think is the best course.  I have every right to have my opinion on the actions of another, regardless of what their or my obligations actually are.

The situation with Aaryanna may or may not be different.  We don't know her connection to this yet, despite all of the speculation on the matter.  Given how passionate she seems about it, I'd say she has a stake in it.

Anyone can make any statement of opinion that they wish as far as I'm concerned.  She can say however she feels whenever and where ever she wants.  Who are you to decide that she has no right to voice her feelings or, by extension, have those feelings?  Why are others allowed but not her?

As for cooler heads?  Calm and rational folks make as many mistakes as irrational folks, at least with humans.

Okay. Once again I do want to point out that while it is considered "cowardly" by a number of people that Abel basically abandoned his mother, you must consider one important point: could and would all these "allies" of Abel who wanted to use him to get to Aniz protect May for years and decades while allowing her to continue to live her life, and provide this protection 24/7 until either Aniz was neutralized or May died of natural causes?

No. They wouldn't. They'd get bored. Or they'd give up and do other things. And then when May was alone and unprotected, Aniz may have taken that opportunity to strike and make May's last moments extremely horrifying, painful, and brief. And so very very bloody.

While it may be "cowardly" for Abel to have vanished from his mother's life for all those years, he did this partly to protect her. Because even Fa'Lina couldn't tell if Aniz was serious or not. (Mind you, Fa'Lina could have offered one last thing to Aniz before he left - allow his son visitation rights to May in exchange for not killing May or even being anywhere near her, in exchange for maybe a hundred or so years taken off that ban between children. Aniz probably would have accepted that gladly, so long as he knew Abel would continue doing lessons and being in SAIA.)

So while Abel was a coward for avoiding his mother, and while it was undoubtedly not entirely because of the death threat against May, his actions were warranted.

Aary is right, one day Abel won't be able to run away.

Also, Aaryanna's waist is soo tiny.

One small observation: Fa'lina, the nearly all-knowing, nearly all-powerful cubi who created Saia, knows every detail of the situation and has never suggested that Abel should do anything about it. Perhaps Aary should go talk with her, and find out what is really going on..?

It's best to know the facts before going to war, as a general sort of rule.

Not that it has ever stopped someone from going to war.

Quote from: kusanagi-sama on April 05, 2010, 06:36:10 PMAary is right, one day Abel won't be able to run away.

Also, Aaryanna's waist is soo tiny.

Her clothes makes her waist seem even thinner than it actually is.
Not that it's massive or anything, she is after all a succubus. :)

Quote from: Tangent on April 05, 2010, 06:34:17 PM
No. They wouldn't. They'd get bored. Or they'd give up and do other things. And then when May was alone and unprotected, Aniz may have taken that opportunity to strike and make May's last moments extremely horrifying, painful, and brief. And so very very bloody.

This is the only sticking point I really have with what you've said.  1)  You have no idea if they'd get bored or not and (we don't know everyone who would even sign up for it! I can't see Destania getting bored, she's waited a long time to get at Aniz and will likely wait a while yet, if he shows up to kill May, she gets her chance in a matter of decades, not centuries) 2) not even Fa'lina was sure if he was serious about that threat.  For all we know, it was a complete bluff.  It could even just be an arrogant claim with nothing to back it up other than a high opinion of himself and an underestimation of those who might want to protect her.  

Not sure if this has been mentioned in another thread, and since I ran out of popcorn earlier I haven't read this thread all the way through, so If I'm repeating someone, please consider this a "second" to the thought:

I can't help thinking that Aaryanna's words in the last panel, "I'm sure one day you will find a problem you just can't run away from," isn't a bit of foretelling of what is beginning to happen to Abel in the main DMFA arc. IMHO, Abel is about to run into a person or situation that he will find most unpleasant, and he won't have the luxury that he did at SAIA to just "walk (or push) away" and ignore the person/problem. I keep thinking we are going to witness a defining moment in Abel's life, just as we did at the outpost, and at the hands of Aniz.

*munches on popcorn as he watches this thread*  :mowsmile

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 05, 2010, 06:55:31 PM
Not that it has ever stopped someone from going to war.

Quote from: kusanagi-sama on April 05, 2010, 06:36:10 PMAary is right, one day Abel won't be able to run away.

Also, Aaryanna's waist is soo tiny.

Her clothes makes her waist seem even thinner than it actually is.
Not that it's massive or anything, she is after all a succubus. :)

Trying to make herself more sexy as a succubus?  If I saw someone in RL with a waist that small, I'd be worried that they were anorexic.

Yeeees, I think Neo Citron is the best way for Canada to have said 'welcome' to Amber. It is the best cold and flu medication EVAR! Theraflu doesn't even compare. :D

Quote from: Ghostwish on April 05, 2010, 07:53:51 PM
*munches on popcorn as he watches this thread*  :mowsmile

*agrees*

Apparently, comics are Serious Business for some people. :3

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 05, 2010, 07:01:10 PM

Quote from: Tangent on April 05, 2010, 06:34:17 PM
No. They wouldn't. They'd get bored. Or they'd give up and do other things. And then when May was alone and unprotected, Aniz may have taken that opportunity to strike and make May's last moments extremely horrifying, painful, and brief. And so very very bloody.

This is the only sticking point I really have with what you've said.  1)  You have no idea if they'd get bored or not and (we don't know everyone who would even sign up for it! I can't see Destania getting bored, she's waited a long time to get at Aniz and will likely wait a while yet, if he shows up to kill May, she gets her chance in a matter of decades, not centuries) 2) not even Fa'lina was sure if he was serious about that threat.  For all we know, it was a complete bluff.  It could even just be an arrogant claim with nothing to back it up other than a high opinion of himself and an underestimation of those who might want to protect her.  

And yet Destania has a job working in SAIA. Aary is a student at SAIA. Kria was a teacher back in Abel's childhood years, so who knows what specific jobs she may have. And we don't know who else offered to help, thus we don't know what jobs or obligations other potential "helpers" could offer.

May lived for around four decades after the Incident. Even assuming that Abel "got the balls" to visit after maybe a decade, how many years would it take before all of the guardians let their guard slip? And it doesn't even matter if they stay on duty. If their guard slips and Aniz gets in and kills May... then it doesn't matter if he's captured, killed, or whatever. Abel's mother would still be dead and it would be his fault for daring Aniz's wrath by visiting.

Oh, and people on the forums would be blithely stating "Abel was a fool for daring challenge his father's promise of homicide! He should be ashamed of himself!" =^-^=

Ok, while reading this thread, something just hit me.
Consider the following:

• We all know that Abel (and Fa'Lina) had no way of telling if Aniz was bluffing or not.

• We all (somewhat) agree that Abel could have probably done something about his situation
Abel says this as well as criticizes himself here: http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_080.php

From what I can tell, Abel's "cowardice," stemmed mostly from the possibility that his mother would have rejected him. He pinned the blame on himself, and in honesty, I think it's safe to say May could have very well blamed Abel for her misfortune. In other words, Abel was afraid that his mother (who loved him dearly and vice versa) would lash out at him because his existence brought her such grief.

To support this claim, I ask all of you (who are intrigued by this debate) to recall the case with Devin. http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_50.php

I think it's safe to say Abel was stuck between a rock and a hard place had to choose between a spike pit or a laser cave.

Quote from: Mischa on April 05, 2010, 09:41:25 PM

Quote from: Ghostwish on April 05, 2010, 07:53:51 PM
*munches on popcorn as he watches this thread*  :mowsmile

*agrees*
Apparently, comics are Serious Business for some people. :3

Me two..  :< Some people get riled up in here.  :U I'll just hide under my headphones and watch the thread unfold. Hey. Ghostwish share the popcorn.  :3

Srs bsns indeed.

*noms on some of the shared popcorn*

....

What?

Quote from: Bjalf on April 05, 2010, 03:32:24 AM

Quote from: RandomMetaphysics on April 05, 2010, 03:17:23 AM
There's a little voice my head yelling something, but I can't make out what it's saying :mowdizzy

Therapy helps. Or so I've heard.   >:3


At least that is what the voices are telling me ...

I hear voices in my head, but they speak in Spanish, so I have no clue what they're saying...

Trazz, change that avatar pic. You're giving me a headache, not a seizure.

Quote from: TheZombie on April 05, 2010, 04:44:32 PM


Heyo, just registered.  Anywho.

I really don't fault Abel for his actions or lack thereof.  Aary has always seemed to have this whole "rah rah rah! Go Cubi!" overdrive level of pride when it comes to her heritage.  So she ends up pushing those such as Abel or Dan away who have a little more moral baggage when it comes to accepting their "monstrous" heritage.

One of the things why i absolutely love the character - if i was a cubi i would   do the same pretty much!

...Don't you just love it when a story is so well written that people spend hours debating over the ethics of the characters? So much so that everything you wanted to say was already said and you have plenty of time to think up something new to say?  :)

Both sides are right here. Abel COULD have bettered himself and made allies and made sure Aniz would never be a threat to anyone else ever again. But the day he learned he was an incubus was the closest to Hell he or many other people could ever possibly be. Aary is proud of her heritage and ignored that, or acknowledged that but thought Abel should have gotten over it long ago. Thirty years is certainly a lot of time to - well, maybe not get over the pain, but to accept it and move on. Of course, Abel's pain isn't typical pain.

Both sides have good points, and certain flaws. The point here is not to debate ethics, but to enjoy a good story.

Quote from: Drayco84 on April 05, 2010, 11:24:02 PM
Trazz, change that avatar pic. You're giving me a headache, not a seizure.

Aye. I get vertigo easily from pictures like that.  :< I don't like it when teh room moves... Also my friend suffers from seizures sometimes so it's not a subject someone should toy around with like that. :.  Jus' saying. I don't want people to get hurt.  :U

Quote from: Professor Fate on April 06, 2010, 08:01:45 PM

Quote from: Drayco84 on April 05, 2010, 11:24:02 PM
Trazz, change that avatar pic. You're giving me a headache, not a seizure.

Aye. I get vertigo easily from pictures like that.  :< I don't like it when teh room moves... Also my friend suffers from seizures sometimes so it's not a subject someone should toy around with like that. :.  Jus' saying. I don't want people to get hurt.  :U

Sorry, I'll make it switch more slowly ._.

*EDIT*

Ah screw it, GIMP is being evil right now, won't let me modify the frame delay... Guess I'm goin' without an avatar until I fix it >.>

Sorry, I'll make it switch more slowly ._.
[/quote]

Appreciated.  c: And thank you.

Aary had every right to express her opinion of Abel (lackof) action since she was offering to help Abel have the chance to rescue his mother and give Aniz stern warning, at least, to never mess with his family and life. It more than likely she told Abel exact same thing in nicer way and with pretty slideshow while Abel still turn her down, so I understand why she might be angry at him.

For those that say it not her business here two thing to think about: 1 Benefit of doubt(since I see no evidence that Aary has agenda in helping Abel) she is just helping a fellow cubi in their time of need, lot of people stick their noses in other people business to help, like helping people in car crash or someone getting bully or threaten. 2. Suppose Aniz come back after his ban his lifted and there reunion turn into an out brawl in SAIA wouldn't it not be her business then?

Abel action is disappointing to me he pushing people that want to help him, to they deserve that? And he think that good idea in the end. Why?

If a serious brawl starts in SAIA, I'm fairly sure there's a certain Pink Poodle who wants to play as well.
Any such brawl will probably end ... quickly.

  :D

Hot damn, there certainly is one hell of a shit-storm brewing over all of this.

From most opinions I've read, it seems that people are assuming one hell of a lot. Abel has been whining the whole time at SAIA, or Aary is goading Abel to do this and that and the other thing, or X amount of people would do this and that about Aniz for Abel.

From what I've gathered, Abel has gone through SAIA without saying much at all, especially about his particular situation. Granted, there is a large chunk of time that we miss out on due to the "years later..." story device, but it seems that Abel's story has gotten around by word of mouth, not by Abel whining and crying about it.

Aary is goading Abel, but as for why and to what end, we simply just don't know yet. Maybe she's jealous of him and is lashing out. Maybe she sees him as unworthy of the more fortunate parts of his life. Maybe she knew his mother/Aniz personally and therefore has more of a stake in the situation.
We just don't know yet.

And as for Abel's potential army of allies ready and willing to drop everything and help him take down Aniz, I'm not sure that Aniz is currently a big enough threat to garner such a response.
Yes, there is the revenge/righteous option, track down Aniz, make him squirm, then kill/imprison him for eons. But really, which is more important, hunting down one crazed incubus, or governing a city, or maintaining a school full of Cubi. Sometimes, revenge isn't enough.

As for myself, I'm a bit on the fence.
Yes Abel is a coward, but I myself can't fault him for it (being a bit of a coward myself.)
Yes Abel should get over his fears, but it's completely up to him if and when he does.
Yes Aary is a total bitch, but she's right, he's been wallowing for too long.
Yes Aary has gone about saying this totally wrong, she's being nosy and opinionated, but that's just how she is. That's our Aary after all. :B

As for how I think the story should go, I'm going to leave that up to Amber, it is her story after all. :3

P.S. I've written this while under the influence of fatigue, so I'm sure I've forgotten at least half of my original point, and misconstrued most other people's comments to mean something other than what they said.

I think one thing that people are forgetting is that Aniz dropped Abel off at the academy in the first place.  I think that he fully expected and likely even hoped that Abel would get training and allies for some yet unknown purpose.

I mean it's pretty obvious that he is trying to raise an army via polygamy.

On a sidenote, it might be that abel really would like to have some siblings and therefore isn't all that opposed to what his father does, but only to *how* his father goes about it. ie. being a complete and uncaring father "monster".

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 08, 2010, 12:41:37 PM
On a sidenote, it might be that abel really would like to have some siblings and therefore isn't all that opposed to what his father does, but only to *how* his father goes about it. ie. being a complete and uncaring father "monster".

He's also been briefed on the fact that Aniz was just some guy who went crazy after losing his entire clan and breaking up with his girlfriend.  I'd like to think that this is one reason he hasn't taken steps against Aniz, but who knows...

And now for something compleatly different....

PIE!!!  :boogie

Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 08, 2010, 11:42:54 PM
And now for something compleatly different....

PIE!!!  :boogie

No no no no - you're supposed to say "a man with 3 buttocks!"

:D

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on April 09, 2010, 12:34:26 AM

Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 08, 2010, 11:42:54 PM
And now for something compleatly different....

PIE!!!  :boogie

No no no no - you're supposed to say "a man with 3 buttocks!"

:D

He's not here yet.

I realise this is a bit late, but I ran across some music which fits with what Abel is up to, to a surprising degree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJ9dVo-jv4

Okay... I need to point this out: There was no way for Abel to save his mother from death because she died of OLD AGE, not Aniz. Stopping/Killing Aniz would not stop May from dying of old age anyway.


This one needs to be directed at Danman's comments: There is no indication that Abel ever wangsted about his problems. He's been indecisive, apathetic, and passive... the true symptoms of Clinical Depression. Rather than tell everyone about his problems, he hasn't told anyone about anything. In fact, the only person he ever talks to is Mink, simply because he won't leave him alone and isn't confrontational, and even then he only answers in a reactionary manner that tells no more than necessary to politely discourage further questioning. He's not bothering anyone, and he's free to live in his self-made isolation chamber for as long as he's allowed to.

Abel may be a coward, and Aaryanna may have the right to call him out on it, but it doesn't change the fact she's being a total bitch about it, nor does it change the fact her last three monologues are a form of intentional harassment.

Here are some pertinent questions:

What will dealing with Aniz do to improve Abel's life? Right now, he has no reason to bother affiliating with or worrying about Aniz. He has no reason to revisit that part of his life.

Why should anyone be bothered that Abel is choosing to live a self-destructive life of antisocialism that affects nobody but himself and those who honestly care about him? Mink is trying to help Abel socialize because he cares. Aary's bothing Abel because she's miffed he's not trying to help Destania's revenge plot.

Why is Aniz Abel's responsibility? May is dead, there is nothing Abel can do about it anymore, there was no way for that eventuality to be truly averted, and Aniz is now loose on a world Abel has no claims on anymore.

I could respect Mao Laoren's opinion on Abel's so-called cowardice if he'd get off his God-damned high-horse "Holy Than Thou" attitude that bears uncanny resemblance to Aaryanna's, and frequent implications that those who question his "almighty morally-superior viewpoint" are also cowards deserving "NO RESPECT! NO SYMPATHY" (Please don't make me dig through this and the past through stages to find said statements... there are too many of them.)

Abel's response particularly irks Aary and Mao Laoren because he's not denied the accusations leveled at him. In fact, his "Whatever" response is a short hand way of him saying: "No contest. You may be right, but I don't care. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it but except worked up and look like an ass."

Okay, that's enough.


Scow2. Thou Shalt Not Make Personal Attacks. Or Else.

I don't give a damn how angry you are, rule 2 says "Do Not"; don't fuck with me on this, or I shall demonstrate, briefly, why you shouldn't.

Enough. Don't make me come back.

... That goes for anyone else who feels they can make cheap shots and get away with it, as well. I'm watching all of you.

*makes note of Scow2's warning in the admin logs*

:nod

I'm just gonna wait for the twist of the century when Abel and Aary hookup.

Oh, the bricks that shall be shat...

Two thoughts.

One, I don't think this situation is nearly as complex as everyone is making it out to be. Abel's behaviour doesn't conform with what Aary expects or believes to be appropriate, so she's verbally abusing him to punish him for challenging her worldview and making her feel all uncomfortable. It's the most basic mechanism underlying peer pressure. Logic and moral principle have nothing to do with it. It's just dumb instinct, intended to encourage cohesion in a social group, and it's of no more philosophical import than the shrieking of apes or the snarling of wolves. Everyone just shouts at whoever they think is "doing it wrong", and the one's that get shouted at the most either fall in line or get driven out.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a problem that you can't run away from. Or, rather, there is no problem that can't be solved by removing yourself entirely from it's area of effect. Whether or not you're physically capable of doing so is another question entirely.

Quote from: Pascal on April 09, 2010, 05:06:39 PM
Two thoughts.

One, I don't think this situation is nearly as complex as everyone is making it out to be. Abel's behaviour doesn't conform with what Aary expects or believes to be appropriate, so she's verbally abusing him to punish him for challenging her worldview and making her feel all uncomfortable. It's the most basic mechanism underlying peer pressure. Logic and moral principle have nothing to do with it. It's just dumb instinct, intended to encourage cohesion in a social group, and it's of no more philosophical import than the shrieking of apes or the snarling of wolves. Everyone just shouts at whoever they think is "doing it wrong", and the one's that get shouted at the most either fall in line or get driven out.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a problem that you can't run away from. Or, rather, there is no problem that can't be solved by removing yourself entirely from it's area of effect. Whether or not you're physically capable of doing so is another question entirely.

That's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all? 

QuoteThat's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all?

He seems to be saying that neither Abel nor Aaryanna  is basing his actions on logic or moral principles -- not, as you seem to be interpreting, that they never matter in anything.

Quote from: Scow2 on April 09, 2010, 12:04:23 PM
Okay... I need to point this out: There was no way for Abel to save his mother from death because she died of OLD AGE, not Aniz. Stopping/Killing Aniz would not stop May from dying of old age anyway.


This one needs to be directed at Danman's comments: There is no indication that Abel ever wangsted about his problems. He's been indecisive, apathetic, and passive... the true symptoms of Clinical Depression. Rather than tell everyone about his problems, he hasn't told anyone about anything. In fact, the only person he ever talks to is Mink, simply because he won't leave him alone and isn't confrontational, and even then he only answers in a reactionary manner that tells no more than necessary to politely discourage further questioning. He's not bothering anyone, and he's free to live in his self-made isolation chamber for as long as he's allowed to.

Abel may be a coward, and Aaryanna may have the right to call him out on it, but it doesn't change the fact she's being a total bitch about it, nor does it change the fact her last three monologues are a form of intentional harassment.

Here are some pertinent questions:

What will dealing with Aniz do to improve Abel's life? Right now, he has no reason to bother affiliating with or worrying about Aniz. He has no reason to revisit that part of his life.

Why should anyone be bothered that Abel is choosing to live a self-destructive life of antisocialism that affects nobody but himself and those who honestly care about him? Mink is trying to help Abel socialize because he cares. Aary's bothing Abel because she's miffed he's not trying to help Destania's revenge plot.

Why is Aniz Abel's responsibility? May is dead, there is nothing Abel can do about it anymore, there was no way for that eventuality to be truly averted, and Aniz is now loose on a world Abel has no claims on anymore.

I could respect Mao Laoren's opinion on Abel's so-called cowardice if he'd get off his God-damned high-horse "Holy Than Thou" attitude that bears uncanny resemblance to Aaryanna's, and frequent implications that those who question his "almighty morally-superior viewpoint" are also cowards deserving "NO RESPECT! NO SYMPATHY" (Please don't make me dig through this and the past through stages to find said statements... there are too many of them.)

Abel's response particularly irks Aary and Mao Laoren because he's not denied the accusations leveled at him. In fact, his "Whatever" response is a short hand way of him saying: "No contest. You may be right, but I don't care. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it but except worked up and look like an ass."

FINALLY!! I was WAITING for someone to understand! It dosen't matter now what Abel could or couldn't have done... Because May's DEAD, and there's nothing anyone can do about it!!!

Now that that's out of the way, let's address the real issue here that's buggin' all of us. Now that May's dead, what's Abel gonna do now? Seek revenge? Try to live a somewhat normal life? Like what Darren's ghost said to him in his sleep, "What now?"

Quote from: llearch's Big Black Boots on April 09, 2010, 12:13:18 PM
Okay, that's enough.


Scow2. Thou Shalt Not Make Personal Attacks. Or Else.

I don't give a damn how angry you are, rule 2 says "Do Not"; don't fuck with me on this, or I shall demonstrate, briefly, why you shouldn't.

Enough. Don't make me come back.

... That goes for anyone else who feels they can make cheap shots and get away with it, as well. I'm watching all of you.

Wait, since I just agreed with him, does that mean I'm in trouble to? *Cowers bellow ban-hammer*

Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 10, 2010, 03:24:38 AM
Now that that's out of the way, let's address the real issue here that's buggin' all of us. Now that May's dead, what's Abel gonna do now? Seek revenge? Try to live a somewhat normal life? Like what Darren's ghost said to him in his sleep, "What now?"

Darren? Oh, you mean Devin.

Hrm. I don't think that was Devin's ghost, though. It morphed into Destania at the end.

Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 10, 2010, 03:24:38 AM
Wait, since I just agreed with him, does that mean I'm in trouble to? *Cowers bellow ban-hammer*

No, you're not in trouble too for agreeing with him. You're in (a bit of) trouble for not suitably trimming the quotes in your post, thereby making it seem like you might be thinking that cheap shots at other forum-goers might be acceptable.

You might want to trim the quote to just the part that you're agreeing with. After all, we -can- all just scroll up and read the previous post entirely, if we want. Just a suggestion, mind. You're welcome to keep being obscure and obnoxious, if you want to find out how we deal with that... ;-]

Ah, thanks!

And yeah, I realized that it was Devin just when I hit the post button. Raggle Fraggle my brain are not working...

Quote from: Pvblivs on April 09, 2010, 10:13:41 PM

QuoteThat's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all?

He seems to be saying that neither Abel nor Aaryanna  is basing his actions on logic or moral principles -- not, as you seem to be interpreting, that they never matter in anything.

Moral principles can be slippery in that morals are what you believe are right.  (Alternatively, it can be what somebody feels is right where the person feels that they have right to tell you what you should feel is right.  This would apply to religious leaders and some politicians.  That way, anyone who disagrees with them is automatically immoral.)

Some feel that taking revenge and/or dueling is immoral.
Some feel that not taking revenge and/or dueling is immoral.

Ethics is what a group has decided represents proper behavior.  According to military ethics:
You can't kill somebody with poison gas unless they use poison gas first.
You can shoot them in the head.

Law is what a political unit has decided that you must do.

All parties may be acting morally according to their own set of values.

Acting legally may require one to take actions that you feel are unethical and/or immoral.
Some businessmen seen to feel that it is ethical and moral to act illegally.

It gets complicated.

Quote from: llearch's Big Black Boots on April 09, 2010, 12:13:18 PM
Insert Words of lliearch here, use a proper booming voice!

Dude!

You have a Big Bad account, I'm totally envious!
It needs a kickass avatar picture though, like, like ..

(http://naut6g.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p7pHHsY1QEyabj_lmd4_M7DvP-xzZfFx2HIwVQ7tM06U30WGHL-8nrrO9LNPvHf8DZS3iTKtjhaxZPCQrCN8dfUrUDFdjtKt8/Stompy_boot.png)

But smaller .. y'know ? :D

Quote from: Ghostwish on April 09, 2010, 04:50:15 PM
I'm just gonna wait for the twist of the century when Abel and Aary hookup.

Oh, the bricks that shall be shat...

That, would be a plot twist that would generate enough bricks to build a tower off.
After which, Oolong will steal Abel's shirt .. again.

All of this offcourse  beckon's the question, had Abel had a girlfriend yet ?

I guess i can at least say something since he was addressing me as well....
You folk as mods probably know better ,but compared to what i have seen on NationStates for example what he said seemed pretty mild for an official  warning ....

Quote from: danman on April 10, 2010, 12:43:11 PM
I guess i can at least say something since he was addressing me as well....
You folk as mods probably know better ,but compared to what i have seen on NationStates for example what he said seemed pretty mild for an official  warning ....

He is not the first. He is not alone. We are watching all of you. And yes, he was mild about it - but the folks involved have been sniping at each other for a while. In one thread, okay, we can let that go on, within limits. (And when it reached those limits, we stepped in) Bringing it from a totally different thread into here? Might I bring your attention to Rule II, Section B (http://clockworkmansion.com/main.php?page=rules#rule02b)? You may find it edifying.

Quote
No Trolling. This means no "following" someone else from thread to thread posting flamebait posts. If you can't get a good flame war narrowed down to one topic, or you're just so lame you have to settle a grudge with them, do it off the forum (PMs, IMs, Email). We don't want to read 80 lame topics about how you hate someone on the forum. We hate that, and are more likely to just ban you.

I read that to mean "don't go wandering around dragging trouble between threads". Do enlighten me if you read it totally differently, and we'll go and edit it to make it clearer. I would have thought it was clear enough, but if you feel otherwise, do let us know...

Ohh, i forgot he was already doing the same in the other threads...

But at some risk to myself, i still read it a bit differently - the problem i see is that the threads were quite closely related as all of them were the same argument between Aary and Abel... so it was a bit natural that the argument would follow through between them...

I would say the rule would address more to idiots who bring on unrelated flames at different topics just because they see one particular person there and try to derail the thread into crap-flinging.

But well, you are the mod, you decide :D

Quote from: Arcblade on April 09, 2010, 09:47:25 PM

Quote from: Pascal on April 09, 2010, 05:06:39 PM
Two thoughts.

One, I don't think this situation is nearly as complex as everyone is making it out to be. Abel's behaviour doesn't conform with what Aary expects or believes to be appropriate, so she's verbally abusing him to punish him for challenging her worldview and making her feel all uncomfortable. It's the most basic mechanism underlying peer pressure. Logic and moral principle have nothing to do with it. It's just dumb instinct, intended to encourage cohesion in a social group, and it's of no more philosophical import than the shrieking of apes or the snarling of wolves. Everyone just shouts at whoever they think is "doing it wrong", and the one's that get shouted at the most either fall in line or get driven out.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a problem that you can't run away from. Or, rather, there is no problem that can't be solved by removing yourself entirely from it's area of effect. Whether or not you're physically capable of doing so is another question entirely.

That's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all? 

I would never contend that. The amount of debate in these threads is enough to show how highly people value both logic and morality, and the utility of both are undeniable.

I guess what I was saying was that logic and morality aren't what drive peoples actions as often we would like to think. I recall reading an article in New Scientist years ago with said that studies of brain activity indicated that the part of the brain associated with logic and reason tends only to kick in after the portion that handles decision making. That is to say that, most often, people will make a snap decision based on their gut feelings, as dictated by instinct, emotion and experience, then turn to logic and morality in order to justify it to others. You wouldn't believe the amount of time I spend second-guessing myself to avoid doing that...

Quote from: Pascal on April 10, 2010, 04:58:25 PM
I would never contend that. The amount of debate in these threads is enough to show how highly people value both logic and morality, and the utility of both are undeniable.

I guess what I was saying was that logic and morality aren't what drive peoples actions as often we would like to think. I recall reading an article in New Scientist years ago with said that studies of brain activity indicated that the part of the brain associated with logic and reason tends only to kick in after the portion that handles decision making. That is to say that, most often, people will make a snap decision based on their gut feelings, as dictated by instinct, emotion and experience, then turn to logic and morality in order to justify it to others. You wouldn't believe the amount of time I spend second-guessing myself to avoid doing that...

Ah, I see.  And sadly, that does seem to be the case often, if brain research is to be believed. 

On the other hand, this doesn't seem to be a snap-decision type situation to me, at least not in Aary's case.  She seems to have spent a good deal of time thinking about this, given how thorough and clear her arguments are.  Or at least spent enough time to garner those arguments. 

It's a good point, though, and one that I tend to forget all too often. 

My point being that Aary's arguments are just rationalisations for the distaste she feels towards Abels conduct. Once she made up her mind, thinking about it more just gave her more time to entrench her position. That's the problem with debate. In order for it to be productive, both sides have to be genuinely open to the other sides point of view. Otherwise, it proves nothing more than who's better at debating.

Quote from: danman on April 10, 2010, 02:03:27 PM
Ohh, i forgot he was already doing the same in the other threads...

But at some risk to myself, i still read it a bit differently - the problem i see is that the threads were quite closely related as all of them were the same argument between Aary and Abel... so it was a bit natural that the argument would follow through between them...

I would say the rule would address more to idiots who bring on unrelated flames at different topics just because they see one particular person there and try to derail the thread into crap-flinging.

But well, you are the mod, you decide :D

The ruling is that if you can't keep a good flame war to one thread, and keep it entertaining, then we don't want to see it. No matter how closely related the two threads are, he wasn't about to keep us interested, nor was he able to do it concisely.

Quote from: Pascal on April 10, 2010, 05:31:08 PM
My point being that Aary's arguments are just rationalisations for the distaste she feels towards Abels conduct. Once she made up her mind, thinking about it more just gave her more time to entrench her position. That's the problem with debate. In order for it to be productive, both sides have to be genuinely open to the other sides point of view. Otherwise, it proves nothing more than who's better at debating.

Can you know for sure that she didn't, though?  Certainly, it would be more likely that she didn't- most people prefer not to expend the effort.  But I don't think it's possible to rule out that she put serious thought into Abel's side of the argument as well.  Then it just comes down to your faith in humanity... or in this case, cubity. 

Quote from: Arcblade on April 11, 2010, 10:14:39 AM
Then it just comes down to your faith in humanity... or in this case, cubity. 

I have none.


I used to have a bit left, but then I came to work here...

Okay. Time to go off on... a tangent. =^-^=

As I'm currently rebuilding old archives (which means fixing all the links for old DMFA reviews which became invalid when Amber, bless her heart, changed from HTML to PHP on me *twitch*) I had reason to skim through some older comics... and came across this comic here (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_527.php).

Now, we knew Abel knows Dan's mother. But have we ever seen anything else on what Abel's connection to Edward Ti'Fiona was? Just curious.

Quote from: Scow2 on April 09, 2010, 12:04:23 PM
Okay... I need to point this out: There was no way for Abel to save his mother from death because she died of OLD AGE, not Aniz. Stopping/Killing Aniz would not stop May from dying of old age anyway.

Why is Aniz Abel's responsibility? May is dead, there is nothing Abel can do about it anymore, there was no way for that eventuality to be truly averted, and Aniz is now loose on a world Abel has no claims on anymore.

Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 10, 2010, 03:24:38 AM
FINALLY!! I was WAITING for someone to understand! It dosen't matter now what Abel could or couldn't have done... Because May's DEAD, and there's nothing anyone can do about it!!!

That not the point, May is dead of old age, but Aniz kept Abel from being with her for almost forty years under threat and can only be with her for the last few minute of her life.

1. He had a chance to go through a Rocky Montage to get stronger and allied himself with other powerful Cubi to opening a can of whoop-ass on Aniz for someone he loves, but didn't take that chance and just feeling sorry about himself. Even if May is dead there still Henya murder that need justice did not push him either is sad.

2. He pushing people away that care about him and wanted to help him. They don't deserve that treatment.

3. Lastly he seem to attack anyone else that know how to push the right buttons, and in the main comic he knows how to fight but with it come to the bastard that hurt him the most nothng.

Quote from: demecowen on April 11, 2010, 11:22:39 PM
1. He had a chance to go through a Rocky Montage to get stronger and allied himself with other powerful Cubi to opening a can of whoop-ass on Aniz for someone he loves, but didn't take that chance and just feeling sorry about himself. Even if May is dead there still Henya murder that need justice did not push him either is sad.

2. He pushing people away that care about him and wanted to help him. They don't deserve that treatment.

3. Lastly he seem to attack anyone else that know how to push the right buttons, and in the main comic he knows how to fight but with it come to the bastard that hurt him the most nothng.

I'm sorry? You seem to have left a few words and/or letters out of that. Could you re-read it, and try to make sense? It'd be greatly appreciated...

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on April 12, 2010, 03:05:21 AM
I'm sorry? You seem to have left a few words and/or letters out of that. Could you re-read it, and try to make sense? It'd be greatly appreciated...

1. He had a chance to go through a Rocky Montage to get stronger and allied himself with other powerful Cubi to open a can of whoop-ass on Aniz for someone he loved, but didn't take that chance and just kept feeling sorry about himself. Not even Henya murder push him to fight Aniz either, it is kinda sad.

2. All Abel has done in SAIA was push people away that care about him and wanted to help him. They don't deserve that treatment and not helping him either.

3. In the main comic Abel can fight and even take down someone without shedding blood, so it show that if Abel did train earlier he might have change the outcome.

And that why people think Abel is coward.

God and Goddess

Put this to bed already.... Abel's story is still moving along, you guys have debate this to death...We need more information..... Abel life is his own, and He may end up in a rubber room, because he will not risk being close to anyone or anything, because Aniz.  His life was on pause until NOW.  And he will have grow-up and start living If he is going to survive....Dan might help with this, but just by being annoying.

BTW, I just thought of this.    Abel is not at SAIA, in DMFA time, then Aniz is due back with another kid.  Was that Fa'lina's plan?  

PBH

Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on April 12, 2010, 05:22:51 PM
BTW, I just thought of this.    Abel is not at SAIA, in DMFA time, then Aniz is due back with another kid.  Was that Fa'lina's plan?  

I like that idea, especially if the new kids outlook is more in line with Aniz's...

Of course, going by the Aniz is Edward theory, the second kid is Dan.

Of course for all those discussing cowardice, anybody out there remember the song Coward of the County.

Edit:

There is a reason that this is found among the smileys:	Amber has specifically not squashed this possibility.  She says that likes to see us squirm.  Although many would say that the result of this taking place would be indicated by this smiley.	I'm sure that Abel can dance around anything that happens	No matter what happens, it won't be
:twist	:tohell	:ddrabel	:/life

Sorry about the strange formatting, but otherwise it would have taken up too much room.

Quote from: Naldru on April 12, 2010, 07:47:14 PM
Of course, going by the Aniz is Edward theory, the second kid is Dan.

Of course for all those discussing cowardice, anybody out there remember the song Coward of the County.

Wait. What?!?

This is the first time I've heard this theory. Aniz is Edward? oO

That would be a twist within a twist with a shimmy and a shake added in.

My mind? It has been BLOWN. O_O

Quote from: Tangent on April 12, 2010, 07:58:53 PM
Wait. What?!?

This is the first time I've heard this theory. Aniz is Edward? oO

That would be a twist within a twist with a shimmy and a shake added in.

My mind? It has been BLOWN. O_O

Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff-

Though when you get down to it, Edward couldn't be Aniz. If he was, then Dan wouldn't have been allowed into SAIA for another year.

Oh come on now, do you honestly think Aniz could pull a fast one over on Fa'Lina? =^-^=

Quote from: Tangent on April 12, 2010, 09:13:16 PM
Though when you get down to it, Edward couldn't be Aniz. If he was, then Dan wouldn't have been allowed into SAIA for another year.

Oh come on now, do you honestly think Aniz could pull a fast one over on Fa'Lina? =^-^=

BUT Could Aniz fool Destania?  They knew each other to well.

PBH

That actually doesn't matter. Fa'Lina stated that Aniz couldn't send any children to SAIA until Abel was 400. Abel was 399 when Daniel showed up. While "technically" Aniz didn't send Daniel (Aary did), I am fairly certain Fa'Lina wouldn't allow any of Aniz's children to go to SAIA until that deadline had passed. And she sent a warp aci to collect Daniel, so it's not even a matter of Daniel "showing up" unannounced or the like. Seeing that Destania wasn't at the Lake, there'd be no real question as to why Daniel's admission was "delayed" (and seeing that it's one year, I don't see why Fa'Lina wouldn't delay things).

So, while it is a truly twisty and unexpected idea... the flaws are such that while it may have caused my brain to short out for a short while, upon further reflection I have to say it is most unlikely. As in, I'd give it a 0.001% chance of happening because you never can tell with Amber as to what twists she may pull. Besides, the current storyline in DMFA (with Abel's "dream") hints strongly at Aniz returning... and we won't see Edward's return until DMFA's climax when Dan, Mab, Abel, Pyroduck, and some others go to rescue Daniel's dad.

Which of course leaves us with the question: what is Edward Ti'Fiona to Abel, and why did he react so strongly at that specific name? (Remember, Aary didn't know what happened to Destania, so it's unlikely Abel knew that Destania and Edward had married. And it may not be "Edward" that is so important, but rather the "TiFiona" family-line which he is thinking of.)

Quote from: Tangent on April 12, 2010, 09:59:35 PM
Which of course leaves us with the question: what is Edward Ti'Fiona to Abel, and why did he react so strongly at that specific name? (Remember, Aary didn't know what happened to Destania, so it's unlikely Abel knew that Destania and Edward had married. And it may not be "Edward" that is so important, but rather the "TiFiona" family-line which he is thinking of.)

We'll find out when Amber see fit to tell us.  Until then it's all speculation.

Aniz and Edward resemble each other some, and Edward wears a bracer on the arm that Aniz has his clan mark on. 

On the other hand, Alexsi and Daniel have a very strong family resemblance, more so than one would expect from half sibs.  Which has led me to speculate that Edward's first wife, the amazon, was also a succubus, and the traits didn't take on Alexsi.  But it's more likely that Amber settled on the character designs long before she came up with this plot.

Or it could just be because they're both feline and male.  At this point, you can pretty well take any of the feline males we know about in the comic, change the fur pattern a bit and have them look like one another with the possibility of having an extra appendage or two, and maybe a different hairstyle.  I think the argument that 'they look alike so maybe' is about as thin as the "Edward is Aniz" points get.  Let's not forget the fact that it wouldn't fit in with the Cuckoo's plan.  He has no Tri-Wing Clan Leader and as such his Clan would be weaker than Cyra in terms of available power.  Mating with a Cyra 'cubi would not mesh with the clan revival plan as the child that would be born would be Cyra.

Mao has a point.  The resemblance can easily be boiled down to: "Amber has a drawing style.  Edward and Aniz are the style for feline males."  I've made that mistake myself, and was promptly and thoroughly corrected.   :shifty

For all your crazy theorizing needs: Wiki-Wiki's page on the Edward/Aniz theory (http://dmfa.wikia.com/wiki/Edward-Aniz_Theory) 

And even though it goes against my previous comments, it should be noted that the greatest coincidence would be if there were no coincidences.

While theorizing can be good fun, in this case the speculation is a bit too thick, and the fact too thin.

For all we really know, the truth about Aniz/Edward and their respective plans and family trees could be anything (Especially given Amber's penchant for memorable plot twists.)

Maybe they are the same person. Maybe they are related. Maybe they both came from clan Siar (there was a mother and son who converted to Seme's clan after Siar's fall). Maybe this, that and the other thing.

I'm going to throw out a new theory, simply because I thunk it but moments ago. Edward is a descendant of May Rewanz (or rather, from her family), and Abel's reaction to the Ti'Fiona name stems from that somehow.

And now, of to work. Yay.  :B