Aary is telling Abel off nicely! I was expecting something like this too... somewhat.
Looks like Abel's predicament with Aniz's threat to kill his mom was common knowledge around campus.
It does raise the question back to Aary and everyone else. If what she is saying is true about people wanting to help out, why didn't she or anyone else make that offer?
While she is entitled to voice her opinions, she's sounding quite like a "mom" here; where she clearly isn't. In that regard I feel, either stop acting like you're his mother or mind your own business, Aary. :P
I give her an "A" on her message, but a "F" on her method of delivery.
For being a creature that, like, depends on charm, the delivery wasn't very tactful. She is pretty much right though.
As nasty as she seems she has a very good point. Though the fact that Ainz never finished a combat course sounds like something someone would have told Abel. Abel could have taken a few and and have beaten him.
Destania made that offer. Very early.
Heh, glad to see that Aary is not cold-blooded manipulative b... after all. She truly is mad at him and act on emotions. And she's cute when doing so.
Aary is just digging her hole deeper and deeper.
Why is Aary aproaching Abel now? Why not earlier when Abel could have done something?
...
Somebody is putting their plan into action. What, I don't know. Who, my guess is Destania; Aary doesn't strike me as the planning type.
Interesting to note that Aary herself failed Battle Tactics.
Oh my.... :erk
Aaryanna's Abel's long-lost SISTER?!?!?
I never would have guessed in a million years that of all cubi--
...oh wait....
She's NOT his sister...?
Well, then WHAT DO YOU CARE, AARY?! JUST SHUT UP AND QUIT PICKING ON PEOPLE! NYAH!
[/rant]
Sorry about that.... I REALLY hate her right now....
Whoa dude! Aary is really letting Abel have it and I don't really blame her. Although I can sympathize with Abel. Before he came to the academy he watched Devin and Hennya die before his eyes and his own mother was under threat of death should he ever come back. This is probably why he never smiled before reuniting with his mother. And it is probably why he keeps people at a distance now.
While Aary is justifiably angry at Abel, she could have done this situation better. Or, you know, thirty years ago. Unless this wasn't common knowledge until just recently, but if she has known, than yeah, she's still a bitch. I'd also like to point out that someone with an intense crippling fear of blood would not make the best fighter in a combat situation. Just saying.
Right right. I forgot about Abel's hemophobia but I'm sure a good psychologist can help cure that.
Please help me out here...why does Aary care...?
I feel I should bring up two things just for quick mention.
1. This actually isn't the first time Aaryanna and Abel have encountered eachother. Perhaps it is bad storytelling on my part, or something I will probably mention up in actual DMFA, but in regards to their meeting, one could say there is already a bit of bad history between the two for multiple reasons. As for the question of why Aaryanna or someone didn't come to Abel years ago with their offers. She did.
2: The actual Aaryanna, the kind and wonderful person who let me use her persona many years ago, is a kind and wonderful person. While I will say that the character in the comic has a life all her own at this point, I figure I should re-mention that just in case the actual Aary does show up that everyone best be nice to her. The interpretation of Aaryanna in the comic is not necessarily the interpretation done by the actual original owner. And I would be rather upset if people turned any ire they had to the character onto the actual person. I doubt anyone would, but I figure I would like to mention this just in case the actual Aaryanna does read this thread so she doesn't feel like suddenly everyone is hating her.
Wow....
When I saw that Amber had written the very next post I thought, "Uh-oh, I'm in trouble now...."
But that information is good to know. For my part, I did figure they'd had a history already--otherwise why is Aary acting that way?--so I don't think it's bad storytelling. And anyway I'm sure many questions will be answered in later installments.
And I confess I keep forgetting that these characters started as Furcadian avatars, so my apologies to the real Aaryanna if she took offense, as I certainly can distinguish between the two and know that the comic character isn't "real" just as Abel and his family aren't "real." If the real Aaryanna is reading this, none of my hatred is directed at you--only at the character bearing a similar name in this backstory comic.
Ah, thanks for clarifying a few things, Amber.
And totally ruining my theory :B
My guess as to why we see this moment is something important happens.
...
Duh! :doh
I'm guessing Abel snaps. Really bad. Like an Aniz-level snap.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AM
I feel I should bring up two things just for quick mention.
1. This actually isn't the first time Aaryanna and Abel have encountered eachother. Perhaps it is bad storytelling on my part, or something I will probably mention up in actual DMFA, but in regards to their meeting, one could say there is already a bit of bad history between the two for multiple reasons. As for the question of why Aaryanna or someone didn't come to Abel years ago with their offers. She did.
2: The actual Aaryanna, the kind and wonderful person who let me use her persona many years ago, is a kind and wonderful person. While I will say that the character in the comic has a life all her own at this point, I figure I should re-mention that just in case the actual Aary does show up that everyone best be nice to her. The interpretation of Aaryanna in the comic is not necessarily the interpretation done by the actual original owner. And I would be rather upset if people turned any ire they had to the character onto the actual person. I doubt anyone would, but I figure I would like to mention this just in case the actual Aaryanna does read this thread so she doesn't feel like suddenly everyone is hating her.
i.e: she's more ticked off at Abel's inaction than anything else and that deep down she's kind and compassionate?
And so we go from Mink's childish looking anger (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_095.php) to Abel's seriously annoyed anger (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_096.php).
Quote from: Jairus on March 29, 2010, 02:39:30 AM
While Aary is justifiably angry at Abel, she could have done this situation better.
While she may be expressing some anger, I think she's mostly pushing his buttons in all this.
Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 29, 2010, 03:01:20 AM
While she may be expressing some anger, I think she's mostly pushing his buttons in all this.
Considering Aary's personality, Abel's lack of action probably pushed some of hers.
Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 29, 2010, 03:01:20 AM
And so we go from Mink's childish looking anger (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_095.php) to Abel's seriously annoyed anger (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_096.php).
Quote from: Jairus on March 29, 2010, 02:39:30 AM
While Aary is justifiably angry at Abel, she could have done this situation better.
While she may be expressing some anger, I think she's mostly pushing his buttons in all this.
That's the first thing that came to my mind--I don't understand what investment Aary has in this, that she would go that overboard with her reaction. It just sounded more like she's kicking Abel at a low point than that she actually cared about anything....
Quote from: Baal Hadad on March 29, 2010, 02:55:32 AM
Wow....
When I saw that Amber had written the very next post I thought, "Uh-oh, I'm in trouble now...."
But that information is good to know. For my part, I did figure they'd had a history already--otherwise why is Aary acting that way?--so I don't think it's bad storytelling. And anyway I'm sure many questions will be answered in later installments.
And I confess I keep forgetting that these characters started as Furcadian avatars, so my apologies to the real Aaryanna if she took offense, as I certainly can distinguish between the two and know that the comic character isn't "real" just as Abel and his family aren't "real." If the real Aaryanna is reading this, none of my hatred is directed at you--only at the character bearing a similar name in this backstory comic.
Abel you can hate on all you want and not feel bad about. IIRC he was created by Amber just for this comic as were a number of other charcters. Just thought I should point that out.
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 29, 2010, 03:17:53 AM
Quote from: Baal Hadad on March 29, 2010, 02:55:32 AM
Wow....
When I saw that Amber had written the very next post I thought, "Uh-oh, I'm in trouble now...."
But that information is good to know. For my part, I did figure they'd had a history already--otherwise why is Aary acting that way?--so I don't think it's bad storytelling. And anyway I'm sure many questions will be answered in later installments.
And I confess I keep forgetting that these characters started as Furcadian avatars, so my apologies to the real Aaryanna if she took offense, as I certainly can distinguish between the two and know that the comic character isn't "real" just as Abel and his family aren't "real." If the real Aaryanna is reading this, none of my hatred is directed at you--only at the character bearing a similar name in this backstory comic.
Abel you can hate on all you want and not feel bad about. IIRC he was created by Amber just for this comic as were a number of other charcters. Just thought I should point that out.
But....
But....
<.<
>.>
I don't WANT to hate on Abel.... :(
(Seriously, though, I knew Abel was original. And thank goodness he is! ;))
hmm, am I wrong, or is her message technically still adressed at Mink? (After the last strip, where the whole thing started as a conversation with Mink).
Somehow the image of Mink breaking up the situation with a desperate "I'M SORRY ARYANNA, I WILL STUDY HARD AND DO EVERYTHING TO BECOME BETTER" got stuck in my mind now... :B
Quote from: 127.0.0.2 on March 29, 2010, 04:06:29 AM
hmm, am I wrong, or is her message technically still adressed at Mink? (After the last strip, where the whole thing started as a conversation with Mink).
Somehow the image of Mink breaking up the situation with a desperate "I'M SORRY ARYANNA, I WILL STUDY HARD AND DO EVERYTHING TO BECOME BETTER" got stuck in my mind now... :B
...CUTEST. THOUGHT. EVER.
Gah, broken by the Squiggly!
Well... maybe the reason why he did take up any offers of help from the the other students was because he didn't want any of the to get hurt. Think about it for a second. Basicaly because of his being, all of his friends were killed, an entire village hated his family, and his mom had to suffer losing him. He could have accepted help from others in fighting Aniz, but if any more innocent people who had nothing to do with the situation were to die trying to help him...
Or, he's a coward. He had friends. Allies. Powerful ones. He had options. Access to training and knowledge. Instead, he gave in to fear and let the actions of a mad man cow him and now he's whining about it. Rather than blame himself for his own inability to do what had to be done (and to use what was right at his fingertips!), to *take* the steps necessary, he cowed and hid behind the excuse that something *might* happen. Chicken. Coward.
I get the feeling that this isn't the first time that someone has stepped up and pointed it out to him, either. Even in the main arc, Abel is nothing but a little coward who pushes people away by being dicks to them because he's afraid. I don't even know what he's afraid of anymore.
Nosey nosey Aary. If she wanted to do something about it, why didn't she do it herself? Although I assume Aniz was well hidden, and probably wouldn't come out of hiding until Abel showed himself. But that also means that Aniz was a phantom. Phantoms, when intelligent, do not need strength to take down their opponents. From what I've seen, Aniz is a master of disguise. He would be a great assassin as well. All those times he could have already killed Abel's mother. There is a huge chance that Abel's mother would have been killed or kidnapped before anyone of his so called "Allies" would even notice. After all they've done such a great job at finding Aniz to begin with. Actually, I would wager that Aniz is a mastermind, and would have probably killed Abel's mother and taken her place. Then in her form, he would slowly kill Abel, and anyone else protecting her, slowly and painfully.
Aniz is not that smart. He was a dumb kid before his clan got destroyed, then he became a psychopath. He isn't a master of disguise, he just changed his form (something all cubi can do), and kept it changed. He isn't a genius planner; the moment Abel was revealed to be a cubi, all his plans fell apart.
Not to mention that Aniz would not have dared go into the city of Zinvith after his fiasco. His mother stayed in that city her whole life, so not only could Abel have gotten backing by allies from the academy, he could have gotten his (second) home town to help him.
Abel is being told facts that he does not want to know, but hey, the truth hurts.
Well, that explains a lot.
Hm. That's a lot of time to lie around and do nothing. I guess you *could* explain it as depression + anxiety, but most humans tend to improve under those conditions, given that amount of time. Either that, or they suicide, which Abel clearly has not done.
Wonder what Abel's got to say for himself...
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:40:53 AM
But that also means that Aniz was a phantom. Phantoms, when intelligent, do not need strength to take down their opponents. From what I've seen, Aniz is a master of disguise. He would be a great assassin as well. All those times he could have already killed Abel's mother. There is a huge chance that Abel's mother would have been killed or kidnapped before anyone of his so called "Allies" would even notice. After all they've done such a great job at finding Aniz to begin with. Actually, I would wager that Aniz is a mastermind, and would have probably killed Abel's mother and taken her place. Then in her form, he would slowly kill Abel, and anyone else protecting her, slowly and painfully.
Objection: there is no motive for Aniz to do that at all. Granted he might be insane, but planning an elaborate plan to do all that for no real reason is somewhat far-fetched.
As for Abel, do note that he's still recovering from heavy trauma and hence not exactly in the right mind to do any serious training. Not to mention that the apparent resident psychatrist is Ink...
Quote from: Pagan on March 29, 2010, 08:08:16 AM
Aniz is not that smart. He was a dumb kid before his clan got destroyed, then he became a psychopath. He isn't a master of disguise, he just changed his form (something all cubi can do), and kept it changed. He isn't a genius planner; the moment Abel was revealed to be a cubi, all his plans fell apart.
Not to mention that Aniz would not have dared go into the city of Zinvith after his fiasco. His mother stayed in that city her whole life, so not only could Abel have gotten backing by allies from the academy, he could have gotten his (second) home town to help him.
Abel is being told facts that he does not want to know, but hey, the truth hurts.
It is one thing to change your appearance. Sure anyone can put on a disguise, but it takes a master to make it convincing for decades. I don't think his plan fell apart all that much. His plan was to have a child and enter him into the Academy. And since Abel is in SAIA, I would say that yes, he did succeed in his mission. And no his mother did not live in that city her whole life.
Quote from: Psaakyrn on March 29, 2010, 08:18:53 AM
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:40:53 AM
But that also means that Aniz was a phantom. Phantoms, when intelligent, do not need strength to take down their opponents. From what I've seen, Aniz is a master of disguise. He would be a great assassin as well. All those times he could have already killed Abel's mother. There is a huge chance that Abel's mother would have been killed or kidnapped before anyone of his so called "Allies" would even notice. After all they've done such a great job at finding Aniz to begin with. Actually, I would wager that Aniz is a mastermind, and would have probably killed Abel's mother and taken her place. Then in her form, he would slowly kill Abel, and anyone else protecting her, slowly and painfully.
Objection: there is no motive for Aniz to do that at all. Granted he might be insane, but planning an elaborate plan to do all that for no real reason is somewhat far-fetched.
As for Abel, do note that he's still recovering from heavy trauma and hence not exactly in the right mind to do any serious training. Not to mention that the apparent resident psychatrist is Ink...
IIRC Aniz threatened to kill his mother if Abel left to see her or live with her. But i guess he wouldn't kill Abel, so that part you may be correct about. Unless of course he would consider Abel a liability if not in SAIA, then he probably would kill Abel. I was stating a hypothetical if he did what Aary suggested.
And now we see the key emotion behind Aary's antagonism towards Abel... contempt.
We also see just how much more easy or difficult a challenge can be, simply based on perspective. From one perspective a mountain is a mole-hill and barely qualifies as a tripping hazard, from another it can seem like Mt. Everest and all you have to get you up and over it is a pair of sneakers and a light jacket.
Aaryana's perspective comes from a 'Cubi Uber-Alles' attitude, if there's a problem that can't be solved by `Cubi powers then `Cubi powers can be used to obtain the means to obtain the means to obtain the means to solve that problem. Aniz didn't display anything that could be classed as a unique skill or ability compared to the basic `Cubi powerset. He shape-shifted, all `Cubi can shape-shift. He kept a decades-long ruse, he probably mind-ripped his target before killing him and assuming his identity.. any discrepancies could be, "Being an adventurer, seeing what I've seen, it changes a man." Still pretty basic stuff. He used his wings as weapons, again totally basid `Cubi material. The SAIA is an institution dedicated to enhancing a `Cubi's powers, no telling how much Abel could have buffed-up in 10, 20, or even 30 year's time. Aniz was a student at the same institution, one could go over his records and deduce his major strengths and weaknesses. He was personally approached by a powerful `Cubi from a Feared and Respected[TM] clan, figuring out how to creatively tell Aniz where he can stick his ultimatum is perfectly doable from Aaryana's perspective.
From Abel's perspective, having personally seen Aniz fillet his best friend, 'Daddy' is a scary-scary monster who could jump out of the shadows at any time and go 'BOO!'.
Such is the power of perspective. WE know all of the above on how Abel could, between Destania's offer and SAIA's resources, have easily pwned Aniz's future plans. Hell, he could even have just quit SAIA that day and gone to Kria, a powerful Demon and member of a prestigious and powerful Family of Demons, and she'd have personally ripped off Aniz's wings and fed them to him through the 'Cartman Orifice' the instant he popped-up in town again.
But no, `Cubi are scary and wicked boogymen who destroy all they touch (Just like Dad.) to Abel at this point in his backstory and he can't reconcile the fact that such could in any way actually Help him. And judging from Abel's recent bad dream, he's still not quite gotten over the idea that `Cubi are scary and wicked boogymen who destroy all they touch (Just like Me.)
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 02:59:39 AM
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AM
I feel I should bring up two things just for quick mention.
1. This actually isn't the first time Aaryanna and Abel have encountered each other. Perhaps it is bad storytelling on my part, or something I will probably mention up in actual DMFA, but in regards to their meeting, one could say there is already a bit of bad history between the two for multiple reasons. As for the question of why Aaryanna or someone didn't come to Abel years ago with their offers. She did.
2: The actual Aaryanna, the kind and wonderful person who let me use her persona many years ago, is a kind and wonderful person. While I will say that the character in the comic has a life all her own at this point, [...]
i.e: she's more ticked off at Abel's inaction than anything else and that deep down she's kind and compassionate?
Well, think back to DMFA::Aaryanna during her appearance. She's something of a one-note tune: a talented succubus who excels at what she does, is
damned proud of her kind and her heritage (to the point of openly flaunting the latter) and who thinks that cubi are the best.
Also, considering that Aary is 30 years older than Abel (and was, therefore, already at SAIA for 39 years when Abel arrived (see Aary's cast page for when she started at SAIA)), I rescind my earlier theory and go with what someone else suggested: Aaryanna's acting like a annoyed sarcastic big-sister. Who doesn't like her whiny kid-brother.
Don't know about anyone else but certainly for Abel's early days (Aka right now) leaving aside even the immense mental trauma that decided to oneshot after another and now his mother, I wonder if this is the final "snap" for him finally realising he is no longer a Being but a Cubi/Creature instead. Just the way he's been acting and his first hand experience of his first Cubi just defaulted him to "I'm supposed to be like that but I'm not. I'm just a regular winged Being".
Though that brings to mind Dan's fear of his Cubi heritage turning him into the monsters he fought in the past. Wonder if Abel was thinking the same this early on and was actively scared of it? He certainly seems to have accepted some things tho subconscious may have grabbed the bainster when Mink slipped but not others perhaps.
Just another spin on the thoughts :D Just been musing about Fa'lina's comment of "Until I foresaw a time when Aniz could not get her but that will be because it will be too late by the time he finds out" and then this ramble came forth. Hrm.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 07:16:16 AM
Or, he's a coward. He had friends. Allies. Powerful ones. He had options. Access to training and knowledge. Instead, he gave in to fear and let the actions of a mad man cow him and now he's whining about it. Rather than blame himself for his own inability to do what had to be done (and to use what was right at his fingertips!), to *take* the steps necessary, he cowed and hid behind the excuse that something *might* happen. Chicken. Coward.
I get the feeling that this isn't the first time that someone has stepped up and pointed it out to him, either. Even in the main arc, Abel is nothing but a little coward who pushes people away by being dicks to them because he's afraid. I don't even know what he's afraid of anymore.
Well let's look at the other side of the coin.
He might of thought it wasn't worth sacrificing his mothers life over. Would you sacrifice your mom on any percentage of chance even if the chances where slim that she would be killed if you could avoid the whole problem entirely?
I think now that his mother is dead though, he might not have anything holding him back anymore.
Quote from: joshofspam on March 29, 2010, 10:01:13 AM
Well let's look at the other side of the coin.
He might of thought it wasn't worth sacrificing his mothers life over. Would you sacrifice your mom on any percentage of chance even if the chances where slim that she would be killed if you could avoid the whole problem entirely?
I think now that his mother is dead though, he might not have anything holding him back anymore.
As I said: It *might* happen. Then again, she could have been killed while Abel hid away baww'ing at SAIA too. Lots of things *might* happen. He chose instead to cower in fear. Aniz *might* have decided, given that he's a bit looney, that offing May suited his purposes. Then where would Abel stand? The simple fact is: He did
nothing but cower in fear. He let himself stay paralyzed while his mother's life dwindled away. He squandered the time he had, the chances and opportunities to make a difference and the power to do so. He's damn lucky that May not only understood that he was just afraid, but forgave him. She still loved him. Some people however are not so forgiving. He had everything he needed at his fingertips and he wasted it. Now they're showing their displeasure.
Folks are calling them various expletives for what is essentially caring enough about him to try to help him see the massive mistake he's made and his own cowardice. Are they being nice about it? No, not at all. Should they be? No. They see someone who had the power and opportunity to make right a wrong who instead chose to do nothing. I'd be pissed too.
I think knowing their history will have a big effect in how I take this. On the one hand- she has a point. Although Abel's got a serious blood phobia that can easily be played upon and insanity does, well, crazy things to a person; it's true that Abel's in an academy where he could have gotten Allies to, at minimum, help him protect his mother in case seeing her goaded Aniz out of hiding. On the other hand- could have pointed this out at any time in the last 3 decades.
Quote from: Feather Dancer on March 29, 2010, 09:10:50 AM
Just another spin on the thoughts :D Just been musing about Fa'lina's comment of "Until I foresaw a time when Aniz could not get her but that will be because it will be too late by the time he finds out" and then this ramble came forth. Hrm.
That was given Abel's current trajectory through the school. Had he taken-up Destania's offer or otherwise been more pro-active she may have forseen things differently.
Quote from: Ry on March 29, 2010, 10:20:04 AM
I think knowing their history will have a big effect in how I take this. On the one hand- she has a point. Although Abel's got a serious blood phobia that can easily be played upon and insanity does, well, crazy things to a person; it's true that Abel's in an academy where he could have gotten Allies to, at minimum, help him protect his mother in case seeing her goaded Aniz out of hiding. On the other hand- could have pointed this out at any time in the last 3 decades.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AM
I feel I should bring up two things just for quick mention.
1. This actually isn't the first time Aaryanna and Abel have encountered eachother. Perhaps it is bad storytelling on my part, or something I will probably mention up in actual DMFA, but in regards to their meeting, one could say there is already a bit of bad history between the two for multiple reasons. As for the question of why Aaryanna or someone didn't come to Abel years ago with their offers. She did.
Word of god says: She did.
take this into consideration that Abel still acts like a child from time to time, despite being 600-odd years old, and still hasn't quite gotten over his hemophobia...
in many ways Abel's is as much a child as any other of the lost lake residents... i shall point out to folks that Dan has shown more determination and backbone than Abel has. Granted Dan's life hasn't been as.... sheltered as Abel's has been.
SAIA is a security blanket for Abel, he feels safe there... that's why he seems so vulnerable in the DMFA proper.
Quote from: Les on March 29, 2010, 10:22:03 AM
That was given Abel's current trajectory through the school. Had he taken-up Destania's offer or otherwise been more pro-active she may have forseen things differently.
While true it could have aso be a strand variant, either way I think just that kinda made me wonder a bit more :) After all the why an action (or inaction) might be taken is far more interesting than the actual thing.
Maybe I have this all wrong, my memory not being so hot, but wasn't Abel operating under the assumption that his mother had no desire to see him? I mean, he is basically the end product of a horrendous fraud that was perpetrated against the women over a period of decades, rendering most of her life a hollow farce. The whole thing puts me in mind of those wasps that paralyse cockroaches, then lay their eggs inside them. A living being cruelly reduced to little more than an incubator.
So, yeah, why should Abel have risked his mother's life in order to secure the option of doing something that could quite conceivably be of no benefit to either of them? Why not just let her put the whole devastating mess behind her and move on with her life? I mean, sure, she made nice on her death bed, but she'd had thirty years to get over it, and, for all we know, she could have bitterly resented Abel and Aniz that whole time, only to have a change of heart at the last minute.
I guess what I'm saying is that doing something is not automatically better than doing nothing. Sometimes, the wisest course of (in)action is to just let things lie.
Sure, if you want to live a life of regret. A life of never knowing for sure. All I see is a coward running away from 'maybes' and 'what ifs'.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 10:40:53 AM
Sure, if you want to live a life of regret. A life of never knowing for sure. All I see is a coward running away from 'maybes' and 'what ifs'.
he does like to hide in a darkened basement beneath an inn.
So you're saying that, for the sake of his own peace of mind, he should have gambled with his mothers life for no guaranteed gain?
Old Chinese proverb: "The greatest victory is the battle not fought." Why fight when there's no tangible reason to?
A lot of people forget.
Yes, it's normal to be in fear or regret for a few years.
Most people seem to forget that hey. Us as humans live to be around 90-100.
And most people -get- to a functional level from emotional trauma within their lifetime.
So Here Abel had . . what. . if may was in her 30s, and died in her 80s, she had at least 50 years. Or half of a lifetime to do -something-
The fact he's lived . . what, 5-7 persons lifetimes and hasn't been able to do shit makes him almost a completely worthless person of integrity or character at the core.
Jeeze guys, the second someone can almost live forever without dying, what we let em sulk and cry for over 2 millenia? Think about this.
ABel has been moping from 1600 AD to NOW. And he's still a big baby. Think about that.
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 10:46:42 AM
So you're saying that, for the sake of his own peace of mind, he should have gambled with his mothers life for no guaranteed gain?
Old Chinese proverb: "The greatest victory is the battle not fought." Why fight when there's no tangible reason to?
Determination, Abel Lacks..
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 10:46:42 AM
So you're saying that, for the sake of his own peace of mind, he should have gambled with his mothers life for no guaranteed gain?
Old Chinese proverb: "The greatest victory is the battle not fought." Why fight when there's no tangible reason to?
Thing is: By inacting he was gambling just as much. I don't know if you've noticed, but Aniz is nuts. A little unpredictable. If he's as much of something to be afraid of that you all make him out to be (ignoring all of the things in place and available that are more powerful and more able than him all clamoring to help Abel, and all the things Abel could have done to ensure her safety by training himself), he could have just up and decided to kill May. Abel left her unguarded if you look at it that way from the perspective you're taking.
You say that there's no benefit? How about knowing that you mother is alright and loves you? How about knowing that you didn't sacrifice all of those years away from her for nothing? How about getting strong enough to end the threat of her being murdered by Aniz? How about letting her know that her son is alright and loves her very much?
If you think about it, Abel's kinda like Shinji from neon-genesis. >:3
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 10:23:05 AM
Word of god says: She did.
Ah, takk. Missed that bit- that's one problem with skimming posts, I got that they'd met, but missed what happened. :mowignore In this case... Yeah... I'm going to hope that there's a valid reason for not that happens ot be the reason why Fa'lina didn't do anything along the same vein... Y'know, hopefully more than politics.
But, yeah, hard to stay sympathetic to Abel. Mink's adorable as ever, though.
My take on Aary's involvement - she's in this for Destania. Remember from the main strip that Aary pretty much idolizes Dee. If that's already the case at the point in time that Abel's Story takes place, then she may know about Aniz and Dee's history and wants to help Aniz get crushed for breaking Dee's heart. And since Abel isn't helping...
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 10:59:44 AM
If you think about it, Abel's kinda like Shinji from neon-genesis. >:3
I think Shinji showed more courage than Abel ever did and that really sad.
While it is certainly arguable that Abel squandered the 39 years his mother had since he joined the Academy, it is interesting to note that he was acting under the false assumption that his mother wouldn't age. After all, he didn't, and nor did Aniz.
See: http://missmab.com/Comics/Ab_071.php
...also, as Fa'Lina says in the previous strip, it's easy to lose track of time within the Academy. She has to remind him that it's been 39 years in the first place.
It's probably a little early to state in absolute terms whether he's amounted to nothing at this particular point in time, since we only know that he hates the shapeshifting class. For all we know he's top of the literature class - he was, after all a librarian, and if this strip (http://missmab.com/Comics/Ab_064.php) is anything to go by, he's not stopped reading.
It is known that by the time he is forced to leave the Academy he's become something of a polymath, and is in fact one of the top students (see his cast page). To be fair, this hasn't exactly translated into real-world experience for him so far.
I do seem to remember reading that part of the rivalry between Aary and Abel was due to Abel apparently being naturally talented at learning things, when he applies himself. I wonder whether this encounter is part of what goads him into doing that.
Quote from: Ry on March 29, 2010, 11:03:30 AM
Ah, takk. Missed that bit- that's one problem with skimming posts, I got that they'd met, but missed what happened. :mowignore In this case... Yeah... I'm going to hope that there's a valid reason for not that happens ot be the reason why Fa'lina didn't do anything along the same vein...
I think many of them tried to help in their own ways, but at the same time, this was very much Abel's fight. He had the most to gain or lose. If they acted without his permission and succeeded, he'd never have closure. He'd have to face all the wasted time and his own cowardice and inability to act. If they failed, he'd be plunged even further into fear and doubt. Someone earlier spoke of battles best not fought, this is one of those times. Abel is already embroiled in this. The battle has been brought to his doorstep and he chose to hide. He got lucky that, aside from a vast amount of wasted time, things turned out ok. He lived and still lives ruled by fear.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 10:56:18 AM
Thing is: By inacting he was gambling just as much. I don't know if you've noticed, but Aniz is nuts. A little unpredictable. If he's as much of something to be afraid of that you all make him out to be (ignoring all of the things in place and available that are more powerful and more able than him all clamoring to help Abel, and all the things Abel could have done to ensure her safety by training himself), he could have just up and decided to kill May. Abel left her unguarded if you look at it that way from the perspective you're taking.
You say that there's no benefit? How about knowing that you mother is alright and loves you? How about knowing that you didn't sacrifice all of those years away from her for nothing? How about getting strong enough to end the threat of her being murdered by Aniz? How about letting her know that her son is alright and loves her very much?
In all honesty, I just don't find that line of reasoning terribly compelling. Aniz has an agenda that wouldn't be served in any way by going back over covered ground to knock off what is presumably one of a number of former ball and chains. I seem to recall hearing he'd farmed a few kids in what I presume to be a similar fashion, but don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Anyway, point is that she was never anything to Aniz but a burdensome means to an end. Why would he kill her when she's still performing a valuable function? Even craziness tends to have a certain degree of logic to it.
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 10:59:44 AM
If you think about it, Abel's kinda like Shinji from neon-genesis. >:3
Hey, whoa! Let's not say anything we can't take back, here! :eek
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 11:21:22 AM
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 10:59:44 AM
If you think about it, Abel's kinda like Shinji from neon-genesis. >:3
Hey, whoa! Let's not say anything we can't take back, here! :eek
Why? is it because that beneath the facade that Abel casts himself, while intelligent, is still the scared little child of self doubt and loathing that he's carried for a long time, hidden away in the reaches of SAIA.. Think about it.. Why he hates shapeshifting so much - is because his
father did precisely the same to be someone else.. He still hasn't conquered his fears, and has a great deal of emotional baggage to tote around.
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 11:21:22 AM
In all honesty, I just don't find that line of reasoning terribly compelling. Aniz has an agenda that wouldn't be served in any way by going back over covered ground to knock off what is presumably one of a number of former ball and chains. I seem to recall hearing he'd farmed a few kids in what I presume to be a similar fashion, but don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong about that.
The guy nearly blew his entire plan at the end because of a momentary burst of what was essentially insanity. His plans, no matter how well thought out they are, seem to be pretty flimsy in the face of his loose marbles. Beyond that, May had friends in high places. If she chose to, she could have spoiled everything for him. She knew him. Knew enough of him to get the word out, and had friends who could absolutely wreck him if she asked them to. She was a very dangerous loose end.
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 11:28:42 AM
Why? is it because that beneath the facade that Abel casts himself, while intelligent, is still the scared little child of self doubt and loathing that he's carried for a long time, hidden away in the reaches of SAIA.. Think about it.. Why he hates shapeshifting so much - is because his father did precisely the same to be someone else.. He still hasn't conquered his fears, and has a great deal of emotional baggage to tote around.
Yeah, but... Shinji Ikari?
Really? You don't think that's a bit strong, maybe? A bit harsh? I mean, we all have baggage, man. That's no reason to go comparing anyone to the Adolf Hitler of Emo.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 11:34:58 AM
The guy nearly blew his entire plan at the end because of a momentary burst of what was essentially insanity. His plans, no matter how well thought out they are, seem to be pretty flimsy in the face of his loose marbles.
There's a difference between someone experiencing a few momentary lapses in control and them going out of their way to kill a person. One is impulse, the other requires premeditation and focus.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AM
2: The actual Aaryanna, the kind and wonderful person who let me use her persona many years ago, is a kind and wonderful person. While I will say that the character in the comic has a life all her own at this point, I figure I should re-mention that just in case the actual Aary does show up that everyone best be nice to her. The interpretation of Aaryanna in the comic is not necessarily the interpretation done by the actual original owner. And I would be rather upset if people turned any ire they had to the character onto the actual person. I doubt anyone would, but I figure I would like to mention this just in case the actual Aaryanna does read this thread so she doesn't feel like suddenly everyone is hating her.
Don't worry. That'd be like everyone hating me because of Charline. :3
*Charline grins* They do hate you, because of me. And because you suck. >:3
*Charles* :<
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 11:40:30 AM
There's a difference between someone experiencing a few momentary lapses in control and them going out of their way to kill a person. One is impulse, the other requires premeditation and focus.
There's the thing: He's got both. He's impulsive. He makes decisions that others don't understand based on his own, frankly, crazy logic. The whole clan revival plan ring a bell? Rushing out to his death at the hands of a dragon? Lashing out at the one person who cared enough to save his life?
He's also shown a pretty good ability to plan and stick to said plans. Now what happens when he forms a plan and acts it out due to that crazy and impulsive logic of his, like he's been doing so far? He's unstable at best. Unstable and, from what we've seen, prone to violence when things don't go as he planned them. May becomes a thorn in his side from knowing too much? How long 'till his crazy little mind forms a plan to off her? Maybe she doesn't even do anything to be a thorn in his side, maybe he just sees the possibility of it and decides that this time, he's going to have a plan to deal with that, unlike what happened with Hennya.
And all this time, Abel is off crying in some basement rather than even trying to make a difference. The whole point of saying that it's a gamble that Abel had no stake in is bupkis. He was taking as much of a gamble by not acting if we're going to rely on what ifs.
Even then, he could have tried to do something to stop Aniz. Even if he couldn't go out and see his mom for fear for her life, he could have taken those combat courses. He didn't. He cowered instead.
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 11:40:30 AM
Yeah, but... Shinji Ikari? Really? You don't think that's a bit strong, maybe? A bit harsh? I mean, we all have baggage, man. That's no reason to go comparing anyone to the Adolf Hitler of Emo.
given how Abel's facade of jerkdom was easily shaken off by various incidents..
this could also explain the bad blood that he and Aary has..
and besides, can you think of a better personality analogue? i sure cannot...
Ok I have to agree with Aary on this one. If Abel had chance to train and if he could allied himself with powerful cubi that hated Aniz guts then he coward for not even considering that option.
Though it is questionable how between 1 to 30 year of training could get him prepare to fight 400 year psychopath cubi and win.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 11:57:01 AM
There's the thing: He's got both. He's impulsive. He makes decisions that others don't understand based on his own, frankly, crazy logic. The whole clan revival plan ring a bell? Rushing out to his death at the hands of a dragon? Lashing out at the one person who cared enough to save his life?
He's also shown a pretty good ability to plan and stick to said plans. Now what happens when he forms a plan and acts it out due to that crazy and impulsive logic of his, like he's been doing so far? He's unstable at best. Unstable and, from what we've seen, prone to violence when things don't go as he planned them. May becomes a thorn in his side from knowing too much? How long 'till his crazy little mind forms a plan to off her? Maybe she doesn't even do anything to be a thorn in his side, maybe he just sees the possibility of it and decides that this time, he's going to have a plan to deal with that, unlike what happened with Hennya.
And all this time, Abel is off crying in some basement rather than even trying to make a difference. The whole point of saying that it's a gamble that Abel had no stake in is bupkis. He was taking as much of a gamble by not acting if we're going to rely on what ifs.
Even then, he could have tried to do something to stop Aniz. Even if he couldn't go out and see his mom for fear for her life, he could have taken those combat courses. He didn't. He cowered instead.
I guess I feel as though I understand the logic behind everything Aniz has done so far, and killing Abel's mother just doesn't fit in with that logic. She's not a threat, she's not an obstacle, she's not even an annoyance. Literally the only person she's an inconvenience to is Abel. So, unless Aniz wanted to intentionally goad Abel into a confrontation, there's just no reason to kill the woman, and even that would be a miscalculation. As long as Abel's mother was alive, she could be used to manipulate him. Kill her, and Aniz would lose his only real leverage. It just doesn't make sense to me on any level.
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 11:58:40 AM
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 11:40:30 AM
Yeah, but... Shinji Ikari? Really? You don't think that's a bit strong, maybe? A bit harsh? I mean, we all have baggage, man. That's no reason to go comparing anyone to the Adolf Hitler of Emo.
given how Abel's facade of jerkdom was easily shaken off by various incidents..
this could also explain the bad blood that he and Aary has..
and besides, can you think of a better personality analogue? i sure cannot...
Abel's avoidant. It's a pretty common personality type. It just doesn't crop up in fiction much because people tend to prefer characters who, y'know, do stuff. And, seriously, you can't compare Shinji's shirking of his
personal responsibility for the safety of the entire human race to Aniz and Abel playing their little game of Unhappy Families.
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 12:10:55 PM
Abel's avoidant. It's a pretty common personality type. It just doesn't crop up in fiction much because people tend to prefer characters who, y'know, do stuff. And, seriously, you can't compare Shinji's shirking of his personal responsibility for the safety of the entire human race to Aniz and Abel playing their little game of Unhappy Families.
yet you can't get past his emotional issues, and more importantly: father issues..
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 12:10:55 PM
I guess I feel as though I understand the logic behind everything Aniz has done so far, and killing Abel's mother just doesn't fit in with that logic. She's not a threat, she's not an obstacle, she's not even an annoyance. Literally the only person she's an inconvenience to is Abel. So, unless Aniz wanted to intentionally goad Abel into a confrontation, there's just no reason to kill the woman, and even that would be a miscalculation. As long as Abel's mother was alive, she could be used to manipulate him. Kill her, and Aniz would lose his only real leverage. It just doesn't make sense to me on any level.
Unless she starts hindering his plans. I don't know if you've noticed but she's friends with Kria. You know, the Soulstealers? Big, nasty and prominent Demon family? Part of the Ruling class of a city? She's also in good standing with that city. A city of demons and other creatures who are a bit on edge due to the actions of Aniz. If she chose to, she could probably have quite the nasty rabble after him. Now what happens when that happens to be interfering with his plans again? Or he even sees the possibility of it and decides to put a plan in place to keep it from happening? By your view he's got a logical mind capable of planning and carrying out those plans. You say she's not an obstacle, and you're right.. currently she's not.. but she could be. She's got friends. She knows his plan and what he's up to. She's got motive. The threat is there.
Yes he may be scared but I don't think that this was a situation that we can just say that he's a coward and say he made the wrong choice. More like he considered all the bad choices and pick the one that wasn't as bad as the other.
We don't know for certain if it was time squandered. He might have been learning quite a bit to use against his father to make up for his short comings.
He seemed to think that his mom was safe and would live as long as he stayed at the academy. Well if the only thing keeping him at the academy was his mom then it wouldn't be to much of a stretch that his dad would keep her alive so he stays there and give Abel the time to learn what he needs. Abel is probably well learned quite a lot.
I don't know if it would be wise to depend on others just because they say their willing to help in this academy. It may have been more dangers for him and his mom. Something like that may involve cubi politics.
Just thinking that, I don't think Abel's decision a bad thing turning them down. I seem to remember Fa'lina warning him of some that would use him.
It's just a mess. :mowdizzy
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 12:20:19 PM
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 12:10:55 PM
Abel's avoidant. It's a pretty common personality type. It just doesn't crop up in fiction much because people tend to prefer characters who, y'know, do stuff. And, seriously, you can't compare Shinji's shirking of his personal responsibility for the safety of the entire human race to Aniz and Abel playing their little game of Unhappy Families.
yet you can't get past his emotional issues, and more importantly: father issues..
Again, it's a matter of degree. Shinji's emotional issues pretty much all stem from his father issues, those issues consisting almost solely of his father being kind of a dick. Abel's dad turned out to literally be a
monster who immediately went on to beat Abel's mother and kill his close friend. And that was just one of a series of traumatic events Abel experienced in that one day.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 12:24:44 PM
Unless she starts hindering his plans. I don't know if you've noticed but she's friends with Kria. You know, the Soulstealers? Big, nasty and prominent Demon family? Part of the Ruling class of a city? She's also in good standing with that city. A city of demons and other creatures who are a bit on edge due to the actions of Aniz. If she chose to, she could probably have quite the nasty rabble after him. Now what happens when that happens to be interfering with his plans again? Or he even sees the possibility of it and decides to put a plan in place to keep it from happening? By your view he's got a logical mind capable of planning and carrying out those plans. You say she's not an obstacle, and you're right.. currently she's not.. but she could be. She's got friends. She knows his plan and what he's up to. She's got motive. The threat is there.
Y'know, that's actually not a bad argument. A little convoluted, perhaps, but compelling. I'm going to have to think about that.
Quote from: joshofspam on March 29, 2010, 12:28:32 PM
Yes he may be scared but I don't think that this was a situation that we can just say that he's a coward and say he made the wrong choice. More like he considered all the bad choices and pick the one that wasn't as bad as the other.
We don't know for certain if it was time squandered. He might have been learning quite a bit to use against his father to make up for his short comings.
He seemed to think that his mom was safe and would live as long as he stayed at the academy. Well if the only thing keeping him at the academy was his mom then it wouldn't be to much of a stretch that his dad would keep her alive so he stays there and give Abel the time to learn what he needs. Abel is probably well learned quite a lot.
I don't know if it would be wise to depend on others just because they say their willing to help in this academy. It may have been more dangers for him and his mom. Something like that may involve cubi politics.
Just thinking that, I don't think Abel's decision a bad thing turning them down. I seem to remember Fa'lina warning him of some that would use him.
It's just a mess. :mowdizzy
Aary seems to be of the impression that he's not done squat. I think that, given that she goes to school with him, she might have a pretty good idea. As for not depending on others? Maybe, but then again from what we've been told the alternative is to do it yourself.. which he hasn't done either. As for folks using you, it's not using if you know they're doing it.
Fa'lina gave him the knowledge he needed to ensure that he wouldn't be used simply by telling him that folks had their own motives and hates of Aniz. He knows that people hate Aniz and honestly couldn't care less about him. Heck, Destania pretty well came out and said it as it was. Her concern is destroying Aniz. Using Abel to do so would delight her. They have a common goal: Revenge on Aniz. She's got the power he needs. Sounds like mutual 'using' to me.
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 12:32:51 PM
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 12:20:19 PM
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 12:10:55 PM
Abel's avoidant. It's a pretty common personality type. It just doesn't crop up in fiction much because people tend to prefer characters who, y'know, do stuff. And, seriously, you can't compare Shinji's shirking of his personal responsibility for the safety of the entire human race to Aniz and Abel playing their little game of Unhappy Families.
yet you can't get past his emotional issues, and more importantly: father issues..
Again, it's a matter of degree. Shinji's emotional issues pretty much all stem from his father issues, those issues consisting almost solely of his father being kind of a dick. Abel's dad turned out to literally be a monster who immediately went on to beat Abel's mother and kill his close friend. And that was just one of a series of traumatic events Abel experienced in that one day.
i fail to see the distinction, both are monstrous for entirely different reasons. Take into consideration the characters of either and their relative actions.. Shinji did blame his father for his mother's death, after all.. I'm sure Abel holds Aniz responsible for just as much, all things considered.
I believe that the fact is worth mentioning that Fa'lina was unsure whether she could keep Aniz from killing May (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_031.php). Destania had arranged for a spell that essentially made Aniz undetectable to creatures, presumably including cubi. Also remember that Fa'lina can't tell if Aniz was serious about killing May. If Fa'lina had questions, what chance would other cubi have.
Would Aary care what happened to beings such as May? If her only feeling is that Abel should have gone after Aniz, that isn't necessarily the best approach. Abel doesn't have any good options.
Kria is mad at Aniz because Abel and May were her friends. However, she wants him punished because he is guilty of disturbing the peace. (Using the original meaning of the term.) Having a war between cubi within Zinvth would have very serious political repercussions. Picture cubi and demon versions of "liver eating" Johnson going after each other's tribes. Outside of Zinvth, it would be difficult to locate Aniz.
WHOOO! Go Aary! :boogie
Seriously, Abel... stop being so emo. Go kick butt and chew bubble gum.
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: Pascal on March 29, 2010, 12:32:51 PM
Again, it's a matter of degree. Shinji's emotional issues pretty much all stem from his father issues, those issues consisting almost solely of his father being kind of a dick. Abel's dad turned out to literally be a monster who immediately went on to beat Abel's mother and kill his close friend. And that was just one of a series of traumatic events Abel experienced in that one day.
i fail to see the distinction, both are monstrous for entirely different reasons. Take into consideration the characters of either and their relative actions.. Shinji did blame his father for his mother's death, after all.. I'm sure Abel holds Aniz responsible for just as much, all things considered.
There are parallels, I acknowledge that, but... Y'know, at the end of the day, I just wanna hit Shinji Ikari in the face with a shoe, whereas I'm a lot more ambivalent about Abel. I don't know what it is. I find something especially odious about Ikari.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 12:38:50 PM
Quote from: joshofspam on March 29, 2010, 12:28:32 PM
Yes he may be scared but I don't think that this was a situation that we can just say that he's a coward and say he made the wrong choice. More like he considered all the bad choices and pick the one that wasn't as bad as the other.
We don't know for certain if it was time squandered. He might have been learning quite a bit to use against his father to make up for his short comings.
He seemed to think that his mom was safe and would live as long as he stayed at the academy. Well if the only thing keeping him at the academy was his mom then it wouldn't be to much of a stretch that his dad would keep her alive so he stays there and give Abel the time to learn what he needs. Abel is probably well learned quite a lot.
I don't know if it would be wise to depend on others just because they say their willing to help in this academy. It may have been more dangers for him and his mom. Something like that may involve cubi politics.
Just thinking that, I don't think Abel's decision a bad thing turning them down. I seem to remember Fa'lina warning him of some that would use him.
It's just a mess. :mowdizzy
Aary seems to be of the impression that he's not done squat. I think that, given that she goes to school with him, she might have a pretty good idea. As for not depending on others? Maybe, but then again from what we've been told the alternative is to do it yourself.. which he hasn't done either. As for folks using you, it's not using if you know they're doing it.
Fa'lina gave him the knowledge he needed to ensure that he wouldn't be used simply by telling him that folks had their own motives and hates of Aniz. He knows that people hate Aniz and honestly couldn't care less about him. Heck, Destania pretty well came out and said it as it was. Her concern is destroying Aniz. Using Abel to do so would delight her. They have a common goal: Revenge on Aniz. She's got the power he needs. Sounds like mutual 'using' to me.
True. I guess nothing is certain until it's over though.
But now I wonder why Abel was offering to put Merlitz out of his misery and why if he is now one of the best student's at the academy she still resents him? Is it this cofrontation or that he might have taking training from Destania?
Quote from: Naldru on March 29, 2010, 12:47:34 PM
I believe that the fact is worth mentioning that Fa'lina was unsure whether she could keep Aniz from killing May (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_031.php).
Yes, but that was just talking about her. There are more folks available than just her.
QuoteDestania had arranged for a spell that essentially made Aniz undetectable to creatures, presumably including cubi.
It didn't say anything like that. She just used her power to block Aniz from Hizell's sight, last I read. Never said anything about 'cubi or creatures.
QuoteAlso remember that Fa'lina can't tell if Aniz was serious about killing May. If Fa'lina had questions, what chance would other cubi have.
He's crazy. Would you want to take the risk? He's gone completely unpredictable. Hence the problem here.
QuoteWould Aary care what happened to beings such as May? If her only feeling is that Abel should have gone after Aniz, that isn't necessarily the best approach. Abel doesn't have any good options.
Sure he does. He could have actually tried to train himself. Instead he just hid away and cried from what we've heard. Even if you toss aside all of the other folks who wanted to help with the claim of they're just using him and would probably end in May getting killed, he had tonnes of resources available to him that he could have used to arm and prepare himself to take Aniz down before he was a threat to May.
QuoteKria is mad at Aniz because Abel and May were her friends. However, she wants him punished because he is guilty of disturbing the peace. (Using the original meaning of the term.) Having a war between cubi within Zinvth would have very serious political repercussions. Picture cubi and demon versions of "liver eating" Johnson going after each other's tribes. Outside of Zinvth, it would be difficult to locate Aniz.
Yeah, and punishment for murder would probably be pretty nasty. Toss on the fact that Kria is a little random herself and very protective of her friends and family, and I wouldn't consider it unlikely that a certain someone never made it to court. As for a war? Maybe. It could happen. That said, who would be willing to go to war with the Demons, over the death of someone who committed a crime in a city and who had wronged quite a few powerful and potentially nasty folks. Sounds like a recipe for a massive stalemate to me.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AM
1. This actually isn't the first time Aaryanna and Abel have encountered eachother. Perhaps it is bad storytelling on my part, or something I will probably mention up in actual DMFA, but in regards to their meeting, one could say there is already a bit of bad history between the two for multiple reasons.
The level of familiarity in Aary's tone with Abel told me they were already acquaintances.
I do like how Abel is showing some character flaws here. Makes him a more real person.
As far as people's suggestion that Abel study weapons, offensive magic and combat so he can hunt down and destroy Aniz, remember that Abel had 20+ years where he gave and received love from his father. Even though he found out his dad's true character, that does not mean Abel wants to go out and commit patricide.
** Edit: Corrected my word choice thanks to Pascal!
Patricide. Fratricide would be if he killed his brother.
Quote from: jeffh4 on March 29, 2010, 01:29:56 PM
As far as people's suggestion that Abel study weapons, offensive magic and combat so he can hunt down and destroy Aniz, remember that Abel had 20+ years where he gave and received love from his father. Even though he found out his dad's true character, that does not mean Abel wants to go out and commit fratricide.
You don't have to kill him to neutralize the threat. There are plenty of ways to do so.
Aaryanna says it's so easy, Abel could have done it anytime.
Fa'Lina says dealing with Abel will take seventy-six years.
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_013.php
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_014.php
Aaryanna says Aniz could have been defeated anytime.
Fa'Lina says there are serious political reasons why Aniz can't be touched.
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_009.php
I trust Fa'Lina's judgement
Quote from: Ambaaargh wrote in RANT O' UPDATEOk. Apparently stealing November is out. So how about October? Any complaints stealing a week of October. I can leave Halloween there and pick just one of the middle weeks.
Last week of August. I won't miss it.
With regards,
Ted
Fa'Lina mentioned repercussions from Taun's clan.. I wonder. does Taun have any interest or sympathies toward Aniz in particular.. or is it part of her self-ascribed role as 'guardian of the `Cubi' that makes her belligerent at the idea of 'turning-over' any `Cubi to outsiders, regardless of reason?
Quote from: Les on March 29, 2010, 01:55:59 PM
Fa'Lina mentioned repercussions from Taun's clan.. I wonder. does Taun have any interest or sympathies toward Aniz in particular.. or is it part of her self-ascribed role as 'guardian of the `Cubi' that makes her belligerent at the idea of 'turning-over' any `Cubi to outsiders, regardless of reason?
Ever since we had Taun's page page I've leant towards the "Even if a Cubi deserves it, race comes before justification." otherwise no doubt at all Fa'lina would have made good on turning him over no question.
Quote from: Ted Schiller on March 29, 2010, 01:49:14 PM
Aaryanna says it's so easy, Abel could have done it anytime.
No. She didn't. She simply said that he didn't even try. He had all of these resources available to him and he didn't even try.
Quote
Fa'Lina says dealing with Abel will take seventy-six years.
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_013.php
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_014.php
So? That could mean any number of things. It could have just been a ruse so she could pile drive him with the little ban on his children for a bit.
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Aaryanna says Aniz could have been defeated anytime.
Again: No she didn't. Didn't even imply that. All she's pissed about is that Abel just sat there and cowered rather than even try, and now he's whining about how things played out. Things he didn't even *try* and change.
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Fa'Lina says there are serious political reasons why Aniz can't be touched.
Sure is, but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that if it was Abel who went out and 'touched' him, folks wouldn't have a whole lot to say. His own family turned on him, and he reaped the rewards of his misdeeds at his own family's hands. If anyone else interfered I could see grounds for political uproar, but then again there's enough folks in high places who'd like to neutralize Aniz for one reason or another that I think there'd be a pretty hard to break stalemate there. Things might break out into all out war.. and I don't think any of them want or can truly survive that right now. Despite some recovery, the 'cubi still aren't in the best of shape after the Dragon/Cubi war.
Quote from: Feather Dancer on March 29, 2010, 01:58:25 PM
Quote from: Les on March 29, 2010, 01:55:59 PM
Fa'Lina mentioned repercussions from Taun's clan.. I wonder. does Taun have any interest or sympathies toward Aniz in particular.. or is it part of her self-ascribed role as 'guardian of the `Cubi' that makes her belligerent at the idea of 'turning-over' any `Cubi to outsiders, regardless of reason?
Ever since we had Taun's page page I've leant towards the "Even if a Cubi deserves it, race comes before justification." otherwise no doubt at all Fa'lina would have made good on turning him over no question.
Indeed, though I wonder if she would or wouldn't be eager to help train Abel up if he just availed himself of such services.. keep things 'in-house' as it were.
Quote from: demecowen on March 29, 2010, 11:10:53 AM
Quote from: Turnsky on March 29, 2010, 10:59:44 AM
If you think about it, Abel's kinda like Shinji from neon-genesis. >:3
I think Shinji showed more courage than Abel ever did and that really sad.
And I think you're wrong. I hated that kid so much by the end of that series.
"Shinji, if you don't kill one very evil person then everyone in the world is going to die!"
"WAAAAAAA! Hurting people is bad, I can't decide what to do! WAAAAAAA!"
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 01:05:20 PM
QuoteAlso remember that Fa'lina can't tell if Aniz was serious about killing May. If Fa'lina had questions, what chance would other cubi have.
He's crazy. Would you want to take the risk? He's gone completely unpredictable. Hence the problem here.
QuoteWould Aary care what happened to beings such as May? If her only feeling is that Abel should have gone after Aniz, that isn't necessarily the best approach. Abel doesn't have any good options.
Sure he does. He could have actually tried to train himself. Instead he just hid away and cried from what we've heard. Even if you toss aside all of the other folks who wanted to help with the claim of they're just using him and would probably end in May getting killed, he had tonnes of resources available to him that he could have used to arm and prepare himself to take Aniz down before he was a threat to May.
I agree, he was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. But he avoided the issue, which means he defaulted to "didn't" which is the worst way to do anything. It wasn't a conscious decision based on the facts of the issue, he just hid in a corner until Fa'lina dragged him out to face his problem at the last point in his life in which he might be able to come to some kind of resolution.
Sheesh, are we really siding with Aary on this? Her methodology sucks, and I feel like a bit of a dick now.
Quote from: Feather Dancer on March 29, 2010, 01:58:25 PM
Quote from: Les on March 29, 2010, 01:55:59 PM
Fa'Lina mentioned repercussions from Taun's clan.. I wonder. does Taun have any interest or sympathies toward Aniz in particular.. or is it part of her self-ascribed role as 'guardian of the `Cubi' that makes her belligerent at the idea of 'turning-over' any `Cubi to outsiders, regardless of reason?
Ever since we had Taun's page page I've leant towards the "Even if a Cubi deserves it, race comes before justification." otherwise no doubt at all Fa'lina would have made good on turning him over no question.
That's a good policy to hold if you want to exterminate your own race.
A few reasons off the top of my head why Abel would be scared to fight Aniz:
-Not sure if he'd be strong enough. Yes, Aniz hadn't finished battle training and yadda-yadda, but when a guy cuts people into multiple chunks without even thinking, that would probably make a pretty strong and lasting impression.
-Scared of fighting/killing in general. I mean, blood-phobia, for one. And if this (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1095.php) is anything to go off of, I'd say it's a fair bet that he's scared to kill people in general because he doesn't want to become like his father.
-Potential repercussions. It's already been said that Aniz might've killed May if Abel showed up, plus who knows what kind of political issues and whatnot would spring up. There really wasn't any telling what would happen if he decided to show up and battle him to the death.
-May. We already know that he was scared his mom would hate him (http://missmab.com/Comics/Ab_080.php), and his showing up just to kill someone could possibly make her hate him even more in his mind.
-General feeling of "it's okay, I have more time." He didn't really realize how time was marching on around him, so he put it off and figured he could always get to it another day.
...but yeah, there'd be a lot of things that could've potentially gone wrong, so I can understand why he'd be scared. XD; And yeah, maybe it's a little cowardly to be held back by so many what ifs, but can you really blame him? Going out and battling someone to the death isn't the kind of thing he's used to.
Quote from: Shachza on March 29, 2010, 02:13:57 PM
I agree, he was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. But he avoided the issue, which means he defaulted to "didn't" which is the worst way to do anything. It wasn't a conscious decision based on the facts of the issue, he just hid in a corner until Fa'lina dragged him out to face his problem at the last point in his life in which he might be able to come to some kind of resolution.
Sheesh, are we really siding with Aary on this? Her methodology sucks, and I feel like a bit of a dick now.
I have to agree with the worst possible solution view. It's a sad, sad waste. I just hope he learns from this either from the rather harsh and unpleasant lashing he's taking from Aary. Don't get me wrong, I think she's being a real bitch in how she's delivering this, but I think it's what Abel needs. People have been pretty nice to him so far, particularly Fa'lina. He's been coddled. Time for some harsh lovin' imho. Sometimes you have to be the villain to get people to see the truth. Sometimes a villain is what is needed to give people that shove they need, that spark that drives them forward to where they need to go and to what they need to do. It's better if you take that role knowingly and execute it with care, because through it you can eventually have the hero you helped give rise to realize that what you did wasn't out of malice or hatred but out of necessity and sometimes, desperation.
I'm not convinced that Aary is doing this with that kind of mindset, but I won't write it off. Either way, I hope that this is the spark that spurs Abel forward, even if only a little bit. From what we've seen of the future Abel though? I feel the outlook is grim. He's still a coward who runs from his problems and is ruled by fear. Fear of himself. Fear of his past. Fear of others. He's a coward.
Quote from: PetFriendAmy on March 29, 2010, 02:25:43 PM
A few reasons off the top of my head why Abel would be scared to fight Aniz:
-Not sure if he'd be strong enough. Yes, Aniz hadn't finished battle training and yadda-yadda, but when a guy cuts people into multiple chunks without even thinking, that would probably make a pretty strong and lasting impression.
-Scared of fighting/killing in general. I mean, blood-phobia, for one. And if this (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1095.php) is anything to go off of, I'd say it's a fair bet that he's scared to kill people in general because he doesn't want to become like his father.
-Potential repercussions. It's already been said that Aniz might've killed May if Abel showed up, plus who knows what kind of political issues and whatnot would spring up. There really wasn't any telling what would happen if he decided to show up and battle him to the death.
-May. We already know that he was scared his mom would hate him (http://missmab.com/Comics/Ab_080.php), and his showing up just to kill someone could possibly make her hate him even more in his mind.
-General feeling of "it's okay, I have more time." He didn't really realize how time was marching on around him, so he put it off and figured he could always get to it another day.
...but yeah, there'd be a lot of things that could've potentially gone wrong, so I can understand why he'd be scared. XD; And yeah, maybe it's a little cowardly to be held back by so many what ifs, but can you really blame him? Going out and battling someone to the death isn't the kind of thing he's used to.
These are good points, don't get me wrong. I just think it's kind of sad and pathetic to be held back like that. He's got stuff in place that could have resolved most of those, but he didn't even try. He was absolutely paralyzed from the looks of it. It's like watching a virtuoso pianist who is acclaimed greatly from his CD's and recordings being afraid to preform publicly because someone might boo him. Despite having the ability to pull together a stage crew who could make it pretty well as good as his studio.
As I've said elsewhere though, he doesn't have to kill Aniz to neutralize him. There doesn't need to be bloodshed. Not that he explored any of those options either from the sounds of it.
Quote from: PetFriendAmy on March 29, 2010, 02:25:43 PM-Not sure if he'd be strong enough. Yes, Aniz hadn't finished battle training and yadda-yadda, but when a guy cuts people into multiple chunks without even thinking, that would probably make a pretty strong and lasting impression.
I'm going to build off that a bit.
Looking back at the first half of the story, Abel DID try to fight ol' daddy... With much less than optimal results (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_94.php). Again, yes, he didn't finish his training, but if Abel hit him with a chair hard enough that it shattered and Aniz didn't even bat an eye, you have to wonder what a second attempt would end in. Yes, it's possible that Abel could have completed a combat course that his father never did, but sometimes power can bridge the experience/training gap, and I
highly doubt that Abel would have been able to gain as much power as his dad had in 40 years.
And for allies... Well, we don't know how strong the average Cubi is, especially just students at the academy who haven't had the chance to feed off souls or anything.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 02:26:04 PMIt's like watching a virtuoso pianist who is acclaimed greatly from his CD's and recordings being afraid to preform publicly because someone might boo him.
Or a highly talented violinist being afraid of performing in front of an audience because his pants might fall down.
...Sorry, I've seen a few Bewitched reruns recently, and that actually happened in one of the episodes. Twice.
Dude... Aaryanna just won many respect points from me!
I logged in mainly to say this - i have not so much time
AARYANNA FTW! :hug I liked her character the entire comic no matter what villain does everyone make of her, and now she said something i was thinking for ages, pretty much in the same way i would have done and well, also proved that my dislike of abel was well-reasoned.
Abel had every opportunity to beat Aniz as Aniz himself was a good for nothing back at school and even if improving somewhat still would be a not so great opponent.
And Abel, instead of fixing him up for good, especially when Destainia has offered him help, did nothing to fix it .... In other words he does not deserve sympathy, but a whack in the head!
And although it sounds evil - fears can be fought with exposition and stuff...
I guess i am so partial as at my worst i tend to be similarly useless and afraid of failure and well , abel has promoted it to a lifestyle, especially when anything his father could do he has potential to do as well - he has powers anyone can just dream about!!
And Aary has at least achieved her goal - she found where Dee has dissapeared, unlike someone.
Quote from: Infranscia on March 29, 2010, 02:51:17 PM
Looking back at the first half of the story, Abel DID try to fight ol' daddy... With much less than optimal results (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_94.php). Again, yes, he didn't finish his training, but if Abel hit him with a chair hard enough that it shattered and Aniz didn't even bat an eye, you have to wonder what a second attempt would end in. Yes, it's possible that Abel could have completed a combat course that his father never did, but sometimes power can bridge the experience/training gap, and I highly doubt that Abel would have been able to gain as much power as his dad had in 40 years.
Maybe not. It's very hard to say on that one. The problem is: He didn't even try, so we'll never know. He instead just hid away and was, essentially, a coward. To afraid to even find out if it was possible.
I'll give Dan's rapid growth from regular adventurer who had a hard time taking down Regina, to one that had her pissing herself scared as a counter example though. Many people play Regina down quite a bit, but she's still got some really nasty *racial* traits that make her formidable by default that get even nastier if utilized well. In Aniz, we have someone who goofed off in school who has some nasty racial traits and a bit of experience with them, and Abel who has the same racial traits and the chance to possibly learn the skills as well as many others that could make all the difference. Too bad he didn't even *try*.
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And for allies... Well, we don't know how strong the average Cubi is, especially just students at the academy who haven't had the chance to feed off souls or anything.
It wasn't just Cubi students. Some of the professors (Destania) were interested in Aniz's head. As has been mentioned, Kria would probably like a piece or two of Aniz and I have a hard time believing that, given how liked May seems to be, there aren't a few more nasties from Zinvth who wouldn't mind taking a chunk out of him on her behalf. Toss on folks who just plain want to help Abel out of kindness/compassion/sympathy and no real malice towards Aniz... plenty of folks about.
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Or a highly talented violinist being afraid of performing in front of an audience because his pants might fall down.
...Sorry, I've seen a few Bewitched reruns recently, and that actually happened in one of the episodes. Twice.
Great, now I'm picturing Abel walking up to Aniz in the main arc at some point and his pants dropping just as he's finally about to get a spine. *snerks*
Aary is quite right here. When you think about it, Abel is a wimp who is self loathing and uses Saia as a security blanket (as Turnsky said).
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 03:16:11 PM
Quote from: Infranscia on March 29, 2010, 02:51:17 PM
Looking back at the first half of the story, Abel DID try to fight ol' daddy... With much less than optimal results (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_94.php). Again, yes, he didn't finish his training, but if Abel hit him with a chair hard enough that it shattered and Aniz didn't even bat an eye, you have to wonder what a second attempt would end in. Yes, it's possible that Abel could have completed a combat course that his father never did, but sometimes power can bridge the experience/training gap, and I highly doubt that Abel would have been able to gain as much power as his dad had in 40 years.
Maybe not. It's very hard to say on that one. The problem is: He didn't even try, so we'll never know. He instead just hid away and was, essentially, a coward. To afraid to even find out if it was possible.
I'll give Dan's rapid growth from regular adventurer who had a hard time taking down Regina, to one that had her pissing herself scared as a counter example though. Many people play Regina down quite a bit, but she's still got some really nasty *racial* traits that make her formidable by default that get even nastier if utilized well. In Aniz, we have someone who goofed off in school who has some nasty racial traits and a bit of experience with them, and Abel who has the same racial traits and the chance to possibly learn the skills as well as many others that could make all the difference. Too bad he didn't even *try*.
I think it would be fair if you add in Abel's weakness to blood which Dan doesn't have. Also its not "Yes I've reached level 80 I can now take on the boss!" Having a certain powerlevel doesn't guarantee victory. Also this isn't a normal thing to stand up to like talking to your boss for a promotion or facing a bully at school. This is a life or death situation. His fear is understandable. However I do agree that facing his father could have yielded better results if he survived. Also I would like to note that Aniz has been surviving in the real world. Some of the best killers in reality and fiction get a lot of their skill from living and killing in the real world. For a fictional exampe I doubt the joker had military or any kind of combat training yet he takes on some of the most trained and intelligent minds on the planet. I would agree that, yes, Abel is being a coward. But being a coward is a normal reaction in certain situations.
At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong. Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed? I'm not convinced I would, frankly. Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.
Okay. A couple of bits:
First: Amber, why don't you do a brief flashback showing Aary and Abel's first encounter, maybe with the Squiggle commenting "why does she hate you so much anyway?" and Abel remembering it? That way we have the "background" information present. It could even be told within one or two updates really.
Second: Abel is far better than Shinji. Abel will help people spontaneously. He actually acts proactively. He may want to lurk in his room and hide from the world outside of SAIA, but he still does go out and do things and help people. Shinji? When he saw the one person who has stood up for him and cared for him for much of the series crying her eyes out, he shuts the fething door and hides. He is a passive unassertive lazy little child who whines about everything and acts only when forced. Abel is a far better person than Shinji.
Third: Sure, visiting his mom with a bodyguard may sound great. But are those Cubi willing to stay afterward and watch over May 24/7? Are they willing to sacrifice years of their lives to make sure Aniz won't come back and kill her? Even VISITING May could have resulted in Aniz going psycho. It doesn't matter how many Cubi offered to help... what matters is the consequences AFTER the visit. What if, after three or four years, Aniz struck then? After all, it's been years. Why would he strike now? That fear is what drives Abel to stay in SAIA initially. And I can't help but think that perhaps he remained afterward waiting for the day Aniz showed up with another child, so he could confront Aniz at SAIA. Or at least, tell himself that he would, to try and assuage his guilt.
Fourth: Abel was still a coward. After all, he couldn't visit, true. But did Aniz say "if you even talk to her using magic or write a letter to her, I'll kill your mom slowly and horribly?" (No. It was "do something stupid" but I'm not sure if writing to your mom counts as stupid. The case could be built for that... but hey. A stupid letter saying "I think of your every day and I'm so so so sorry what's happened and please don't hate me" is stupid? *shakes head* Of course... Abel was afraid that his mother would hate him. So long as he never wrote, so long as he never visited... he could lie to himself and say she didn't. (Which... ultimately, she didn't. She loved him. Even with her last breath.)
I think that people are too quick to call Abel a coward. (I'm not ruling it out. I'm just criticizing the rush to judgement.) Presumably, his mother's well-being was more important to him than the ability to see her. Yeah, maybe he could have killed Aniz -- after Aniz killed May. That would probably have made Destania and Aaryanna very happy. But it wouldn't have made Abel's situation any better.
Now, maybe Abel does need a wake-up call. Perhaps he has let slef-pity over a bad situation blind him to actual possibilities before him. But branding him as a "coward" does no one any good.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 29, 2010, 07:12:38 PM
At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong. Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed? I'm not convinced I would, frankly. Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.
You make an excellent point. We aren't in Abel's shoes so do we actually know what we ourselves would do in this situation? I myself would probably do some things that many would consider "cowardly".
BTW, comments on Aniz not even having finished basic combat classes... well, that was several hundred years ago. Since then, he learned enough about fighting to effectively be an adventurer. He may very well have started applying himself to those "basics" he had originally learned. And he was skilled enough to chop a Mythos into several pieces when he wasn't even thinking of it. He might not be the level of skill of some of the combat-oriented Cubi... but I suspect he knows enough at this point to effectively assassinate May and probably escape before many other Cubi could react. Heck, he took out an adventurer and replaced him... and then continued "adventuring" effectively enough to support a wife and eventually a child (though if he continued adventuring after they went to the city I'm not entirely clear on).
So Aniz probably isn't ineffectual. In a fight he probably could hold his own... and very likely could take out Aary who never passed any fighting classes herself. (Besides. Someone who's fought in real-life will often prevail against even a fairly talented school-taught fighter because they've utilized their abilities in real life... the step between dojo and real-life is steeper than you'd think.) And as for Destania... I suspect she'd have frozen up for a split second fighting Aniz, despite the "hate" she believes she feels for him at this point, and that could give Aniz the opening he needs to neutralize her... at least, long enough to kill May and get out.
Aniz has likely learned far more in the decades he's been away from SAIA and being forced to fend for himself than he did in the two or three centuries he was at SAIA before Siar's fall. He'd have had to.
And do note, it's been over 350 years since that time in the DMFA universe. Abel is 399... and at 400, Aniz is allowed to enroll another child at SAIA. I wonder how much deadlier he has become in that time. And how great will his threat be for Abel, Dan, Mab, and the others to inevitably face in the upcoming storyline.
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 07:32:10 PM
Okay. A couple of bits:
First: Amber, why don't you do a brief flashback showing Aary and Abel's first encounter, maybe with the Squiggle commenting "why does she hate you so much anyway?" and Abel remembering it? That way we have the "background" information present. It could even be told within one or two updates really.
Abel's Story was originally meant to be around 50 pages long from start to finish. It's now around the 200 mark, in part due to little 1-2 page updates. I mean, Devin and Xander were supposed to originally only have about 5 pages of screentime max.
To the peeps reading, particularly when they have it all in one go, 1-2 pages is probably about 30 seconds to two minutes. For me though, 2 pages is two weeks of updates. And they build up as time goes. While I have enjoyed working on Abel's Story, it was in no way meant to be a permanent fixture in the DMFA update roster. There are other projects I would one day like to do. Particularly since it is inevitable that information from Abel's Story will hit DMFA normal since I tend to write under the assumption not everyone who comes to the site will read the demo 101 or the side stories. So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.
As for Abel and Aaryanna, as a creator I tend to not take sides in things. I can say that I can understand and empathize with both of them and cannot really fault either for their stances. I think in life there are a lot of times when a situation like this crops up. Especially since there is a lot of potential what-ifs backing up the both sides. There are a lot of unknown or what-if factors that could have gone either way...it just happened that this is the way it did happen. Any number of changes could have possibly resulted in different results, be them better or worse. I don't really fault Abel for not taking initiative but I don't fault Aaryanna for her opinion on the situation.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 07:32:10 PM
Okay. A couple of bits:
First: Amber, why don't you do a brief flashback showing Aary and Abel's first encounter, maybe with the Squiggle commenting "why does she hate you so much anyway?" and Abel remembering it? That way we have the "background" information present. It could even be told within one or two updates really.
Abel's Story was originally meant to be around 50 pages long from start to finish. It's now around the 200 mark, in part due to little 1-2 page updates. I mean, Devin and Xander were supposed to originally only have about 5 pages of screentime max.
To the peeps reading, particularly when they have it all in one go, 1-2 pages is probably about 30 seconds to two minutes. For me though, 2 pages is two weeks of updates. And they build up as time goes. While I have enjoyed working on Abel's Story, it was in no way meant to be a permanent fixture in the DMFA update roster. There are other projects I would one day like to do. Particularly since it is inevitable that information from Abel's Story will hit DMFA normal since I tend to write under the assumption not everyone who comes to the site will read the demo 101 or the side stories. So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.
That is quite true. You put in a lot of hard work with this comic. Hell, my own attempt seven years ago was far smaller in terms of total time and updates... and yet frustrating as hell. I can understand wanting to wrap up AS instead of stretching it out for another 50 updates (even if Squiggly fans would squee at seeing more of him).
I also sometimes forget that some of the characters here in AS are not exiled from DMFA. We may very well see Aary again in the future... or we may even learn from Dan asking Abel why she dislikes him so much. Or even why Abel went from a nice roommate to someone who drove his other roomies nutters. ^^;;
Addendum note: I must admit some curiosity as to when Fa'Lina adopts Abel. Or does she never tell him... and just did so when he first came to SAIA? Heh... it's kind of funny when you think of it: Abel and Pyroduck are brothers. Spiritually. Kinda. ^^;;
Speaking of said roommate, man, do I feel sorry for Mink on this page. :< It's never fun to be stuck between two people glaring daggers at each other, especially when you're inclined to like everybody like Mink is.
I don't know... Aaryanna makes several good points, but I feel like she's making them too soon during Abel's grieving process. Abel is using avoidance as a coping mechanism, for sure, but from his point of view, he had good reason to. The only thing I can think about while looking at this page, though, is "Poor squiggly." I don't know what that says about me, but there you go.
I feel ya, squiggly... like so many others, I've been there. :hug
Huup, looks like I took that nap too soon.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:06:03 PM
I think it would be fair if you add in Abel's weakness to blood which Dan doesn't have.
Weakness or fear? Sadly, he's just afraid of it and freaks out. I think that could be easily desensitized out of him if, y'know, he tried. He also doesn't have to kill or even cut Aniz to subdue him. Not that he even tried to learn how.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:06:03 PM
Also its not "Yes I've reached level 80 I can now take on the boss!" Having a certain powerlevel doesn't guarantee victory.
No, it doesn't nor did I say it did. Sad thing is, he *still* didn't try.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:06:03 PM
Also this isn't a normal thing to stand up to like talking to your boss for a promotion or facing a bully at school. This is a life or death situation. His fear is understandable.
Not for me it isn't. I've been in life or death situations. Curling up into a ball and hiding all the while cursing your fate doesn't help .
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:06:03 PM
However I do agree that facing his father could have yielded better results if he survived. Also I would like to note that Aniz has been surviving in the real world. Some of the best killers in reality and fiction get a lot of their skill from living and killing in the real world. For a fictional exampe I doubt the joker had military or any kind of combat training yet he takes on some of the most trained and intelligent minds on the planet.
Thing is again, he didn't even *try* to gain *any* combat experience. Not even the training needed to become able to even attempt some real scenarios. He just pussied out and hid.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 07:06:03 PM
I would agree that, yes, Abel is being a coward. But being a coward is a normal reaction in certain situations.
Never said it wasn't. But he's a coward about everything. We see it over and over again. The way he's a dink to everyone to push them away. The way he hid away from the truth at the academy and never once tried to do anything about the situation. The way he convinced himself that his own mother would hate him just so he could justify the fact that he ran away and did nothing to save her from that mad man who was threatening to kill her at the slightest provocation.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 29, 2010, 07:12:38 PM
At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong. Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed? I'm not convinced I would, frankly. Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.
For someone commenting about the armchair aspects of others, I find it funny that you're implying that others wouldn't have been able to do a better job, or at least tried to. Believe it or not, people out there have lived in some pretty terrible situations and survived them. Some of them even, *gasp* learned from them!
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 29, 2010, 07:34:41 PM
I think that people are too quick to call Abel a coward. (I'm not ruling it out. I'm just criticizing the rush to judgement.) Presumably, his mother's well-being was more important to him than the ability to see her. Yeah, maybe he could have killed Aniz -- after Aniz killed May. That would probably have made Destania and Aaryanna very happy. But it wouldn't have made Abel's situation any better.
The rush to judgement? Like people flying all over Aary in the last thread and calling for her blood? Sorry, but we've had quite a few examples of Abel's cowardice and dickery. You want a rush to judgement? Go look at those last threads. As for Aniz killing May before Abel got to him (didn't have to kill him, or even cut him for those who like to harp on the fear of blood thing, many ways to subdue others) maybe, but as had been said: Could have happened anyway. You going to take the word of a mad man who's been shown to be violent and able to plan and execute said plans? I don't think that'd be a great idea.
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 29, 2010, 07:34:41 PM
Now, maybe Abel does need a wake-up call. Perhaps he has let slef-pity over a bad situation blind him to actual possibilities before him. But branding him as a "coward" does no one any good.
This is a story discussion and I'm voicing my opinion on my character and backing it up with points we can all observe. If this were an honest discussion with Abel, I could see your point about this not doing any good, but it's not. The character is a coward.
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 08:16:35 PM
BTW, comments on Aniz not even having finished basic combat classes... well, that was several hundred years ago. Since then, he learned enough about fighting to effectively be an adventurer. He may very well have started applying himself to those "basics" he had originally learned. And he was skilled enough to chop a Mythos into several pieces when he wasn't even thinking of it. He might not be the level of skill of some of the combat-oriented Cubi... but I suspect he knows enough at this point to effectively assassinate May and probably escape before many other Cubi could react. Heck, he took out an adventurer and replaced him... and then continued "adventuring" effectively enough to support a wife and eventually a child (though if he continued adventuring after they went to the city I'm not entirely clear on).
So he was abel to kill an adventurer, (though we don't know how, could have been a simple deception) a child who knew next to nothing of 'cubi let alone how to combat one, and we *think* (though we've not seen it) that he was an adventurer... though there's any number of things he could have been doing while he was off 'adventuring'. Sorry, but that's pretty flimsy to me for speaking of any combat prowess he has.
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 08:16:35 PM
So Aniz probably isn't ineffectual. In a fight he probably could hold his own... and very likely could take out Aary who never passed any fighting classes herself. (Besides. Someone who's fought in real-life will often prevail against even a fairly talented school-taught fighter because they've utilized their abilities in real life... the step between dojo and real-life is steeper than you'd think.) And as for Destania... I suspect she'd have frozen up for a split second fighting Aniz, despite the "hate" she believes she feels for him at this point, and that could give Aniz the opening he needs to neutralize her... at least, long enough to kill May and get out.
I've been in martial arts. Several actually. While I agree there's a difference between the dojo and the real world, there's a lot the dojo can give you that you will not get out in the real world on your own. Two sides to that coin. Also, many schools of training take that into account and will actually put you in harms way so you learn the lesson properly. Keeping in mind that SAIA not only has to prepare 'cubi with the violent reality that awaits young cubi out in the world but the facilities to put them in harms way to train them and still not have them die. (magical healing anyone?) I'd say they can't quite be compared to the watered down real world dojos the likes of you and I would be familiar with.
I'd also like to know what you're basing your observations of Destania on. What we do know of her at this point is that she's cold, vicious and quite capable of inflicting pain and torment and *very* experienced at it. In fact, she teaches classes on how to do it.
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 08:16:35 PM
Aniz has likely learned far more in the decades he's been away from SAIA and being forced to fend for himself than he did in the two or three centuries he was at SAIA before Siar's fall. He'd have had to.
Not necessarily. He had Destania blocking him from Hizell's sight and as long as he stuck to the small fish (beings) he'd likely be able to coast through as long as he didn't rock the boat too much. In fact, looks like he spent some time hiding, pretending to be adventurer out in the boonies...
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 08:16:35 PM
And do note, it's been over 350 years since that time in the DMFA universe. Abel is 399... and at 400, Aniz is allowed to enroll another child at SAIA. I wonder how much deadlier he has become in that time. And how great will his threat be for Abel, Dan, Mab, and the others to inevitably face in the upcoming storyline.
I don't think Aniz is *any* threat to Mab. As for the others: Always a chance. Always a chance he's already dead too.
I think Abel's reaction to blood is stronger than you give it credit for... He says he's now capable of controlling it, except under duress. All indications say it's hard-wired into him, and it takes extreme force of will to supress the urge to vomit at the sight of blood or a substance that could be mistaken for blood.
He also was unaware of the amount of time that passed while he was at the academy... It's hard enough to keep track of time during a day with a normal sleep schedule. Stop his physical aging, take away the necessities that mark the passage of time (Metabolism and sleep cycles), and put him in an enclosed environment cut off from Day and night cycles, and he could easily feel 30 years were 5 or less... I'm reminded of Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick's stint in the afterlife... what he thought was less than a day was over 3 months. That could explain the lack of contact.
As far as fighting Aniz... I don't think Abel would have stood a chance. Just because he doesn't have a "Hero's" sense of retribution doesn't make him a coward to the degree you are implying him to be. Having the last memory of Aniz effortlessly, brutally shredding his best friend (Who was a Mythos, no less!) could cause serious problems in any future encounters, willing or not.
Even if trusting a madman is a dangerous course of action, Abel being cowed into staying at the Academy could be accounted for. Aniz is a lot older than Abel, and has been living in Hostile Territory ever since he left SAIA. He could have killed May if at any point he believed Abel would leave the academy because of her. Abel tried to move on with his life, not wanting to provoke the psychopath demonstrated to be able to kill quickly. As long as Abel was at the academy without contact with May, it's likely Aniz had all but forgotten her.
Quote from: Scow2 on March 29, 2010, 10:39:24 PM
I think Abel's reaction to blood is stronger than you give it credit for... He says he's now capable of controlling it, except under duress. All indications say it's hard-wired into him, and it takes extreme force of will to supress the urge to vomit at the sight of blood or a substance that could be mistaken for blood.
Again, doesn't have to be ANY bloodshed. I've said this many times. Plenty of ways to subdue someone with not a drop spilled.
Quote
He also was unaware of the amount of time that passed while he was at the academy... It's hard enough to keep track of time during a day with a normal sleep schedule. Stop his physical aging, take away the necessities that mark the passage of time (Metabolism and sleep cycles), and put him in an enclosed environment cut off from Day and night cycles, and he could easily feel 30 years were 5 or less... I'm reminded of Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick's stint in the afterlife... what he thought was less than a day was over 3 months. That could explain the lack of contact.
True, but if he honestly wanted to do something about it keeping track of that time would have mattered. It's just further proof that he just wanted to run away and hide.
Quote
As far as fighting Aniz... I don't think Abel would have stood a chance. Just because he doesn't have a "Hero's" sense of retribution doesn't make him a coward to the degree you are implying him to be. Having the last memory of Aniz effortlessly, brutally shredding his best friend (Who was a Mythos, no less!) could cause serious problems in any future encounters, willing or not.
A very young mythos, who knows next to nothing about 'Cubi and who's power and abilities we know nothing about. Mythos != powerful. Mythos= more varied than any other species. Wide varieties of skills, abilities and racial traits.
You don't need a 'Hero's sense of retribution' to realize a threat to those you love and to put things in motion to neutralize it. He didn't even try that much. He's a chicken.
Quote
Even if trusting a madman is a dangerous course of action, Abel being cowed into staying at the Academy could be accounted for. Aniz is a lot older than Abel, and has been living in Hostile Territory ever since he left SAIA. He could have killed May if at any point he believed Abel would leave the academy because of her. Abel tried to move on with his life, not wanting to provoke the psychopath demonstrated to be able to kill quickly. As long as Abel was at the academy without contact with May, it's likely Aniz had all but forgotten her.
Maybe he could have, or maybe he couldn't have. Point remains Abel did nothing to even try to ensure his mom was safe. Instead he curled up, told himself some little lies about how his mom hates him to justify his inaction and when that wasn't enough fell back on the excuse that, despite all the arsenal he had available, if he 'did something stupid' Aniz would try and kill May. As for Aniz's ability to kill quickly? I don't imaging he's any faster than any other cubi his age. In fact, there were some who were quite a bit older who were more than willing to try and take Aniz down. Destania for one. Maybe she can't be trusted but so far, she's got no reason to want May dead and if her and Abel travel together, all Abel needs to do is get May out of there while Destania exacts her revenge. Abel wouldn't even have to see a drop of blood, and his mother's safety would likely be better assured.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: Naldru on March 29, 2010, 12:47:34 PM
Destania had arranged for a spell that essentially made Aniz undetectable to creatures, presumably including cubi.
It didn't say anything like that. She just used her power to block Aniz from Hizell's sight, last I read. Never said anything about 'cubi or creatures.
I refer you to strip 422 where it says that the reason that Dan couldn't be found by SAIA was that he was a member of Cyra's clan. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_422.php) In Abel's Story (Part 2), strip 58, it says that Destania used Cyra's power to hide Aniz. I assumed that this amounted to same concealment technique used by other members of Cyra's clan. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_058.php)
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 01:05:20 PM
Quote from: Naldru on March 29, 2010, 12:47:34 PM
Kria is mad at Aniz because Abel and May were her friends. However, she wants him punished because he is guilty of disturbing the peace. (Using the original meaning of the term.) Having a war between cubi within Zinvth would have very serious political repercussions. Picture cubi and demon versions of "liver eating" Johnson going after each other's tribes. Outside of Zinvth, it would be difficult to locate Aniz.
Yeah, and punishment for murder would probably be pretty nasty. Toss on the fact that Kria is a little random herself and very protective of her friends and family, and I wouldn't consider it unlikely that a certain someone never made it to court. As for a war? Maybe. It could happen. That said, who would be willing to go to war with the Demons, over the death of someone who committed a crime in a city and who had wronged quite a few powerful and potentially nasty folks. Sounds like a recipe for a massive stalemate to me.
I am viewing the attitudes of demons and cubi to be very similar to concepts that were common during the medieval period. Taun (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/Leader05.php) and Owona (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/Leader11.php) would have no hesitation about going to war if they felt that honor demanded it. Taun isn't the protector or the guardian, he is The Avenger. If Fa'lina had turned Aniz over to Zinvth, Taun would feel that the honor of the cubi had been tarnished and vengeance would be required. If Kria killed Aniz, this might also be viewed as requiring retribution. (This attitude currently exists in many tribal societies.) We're talking feuds of the level of Hatfield/McCoy or Capulet/Montague. Actually, we're talking much deadlier. You're talking of rational thought and calm discussion, while I'm looking at rage and vengeance. Take a look at the Balkans over the last hundred years or the feuds between groups in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Edit:
I just took another look at Amber's post.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.
There is an implication that SAIA and Zinvth politics are complicated. Has anybody considered that Abel may not only have been afraid of the death of himself or his mother, but a full scale war between cubi and Zinvth that would kill many of Abel's friends on both sides.
Hmm... Note time!
1) Shunned most of his childhood, physically and vocally abused by every kid in town.
2) Mom and dad, from the looks of it, arguing a lot, said arguments involving Abel and his wings.
While moving to Zinvth helped resolve those two problems a good bit, they would still have a little impact on him.
3) Cindy, the only person that was Abel's sister basically, committed suicide because of the fact she was an adventurer's child.
4) A fear of blood throughout his entire life, and with such severity that he gets physically ill.
5) Two people that were relatively nice to him after Cindy's funeral, Xander and Devin, both died when they get ambushed at a post. Devin dying while Abel sprouted head wings, making Abel believe it was his fault.
6) At home soon after, his mom and pop fight over him being an Incubus, in which his father morphs into Aniz, no longer facading.
7) Aniz hurts May, someone Abel would most likely look up to the most, as she's always been there for him, his support.
8 ) And then another of Abel's friends die. Just when she's about to get married.
9) While feeling like he's the cause of strife for everyone he knows, he suddenly is forced into SAIA. His life changed and ruined at the moment.
10) The finishing blow to it all being the threat to his mom, killing her and using her against me.
(I've probably missed a thing or two, oh well.)
Hmm... Now from my perspective, any normal person would suffer a major mental breakdown with all the bad stuff that happened. And may end up in an asylum.
Is Abel a coward in my eyes? No. No he isn't. He's a saint to me. He's somehow been able to not go insane over how bad his life went. It is understandable how he went into auto-pilot from his first day into the Academy to his mom's death. One's mind tends to shut itself down in extreme amounts of stress. And Abel's mind did just that, shut itself down so his fractured and cracked mind could attempt to repair itself. Crying and loneliness can happen. Hey, you can say that Abel could have developed any sort of Dissociative disorders because of this. I wouldn't hold it against him.
On to the Aniz part: Failing a class does not make one an idiot. It shows one being lazy and not caring. Look an Einstein, he was a genius but failed many classes. Aniz also learned much in his time away from the Academy, becoming more efficient and brutal. He was able to fool Kria Soulstealer, one of the most dangerous Demons there is, and that's not talking about a city full of demons and all sorts of creatures! How long have they lived there? 15 years at least? He's obviously had learned a lot to fool an entire city (Not counting the SAIA folk).
Aary: Yes, she is right in some points to her argument, but how she did it would not help. Coward? That'll just make Abel, who's mind really isn't stable with having to visit his mom on her deathbed (Though it did give some closure, knowing that she loved him and never blamed him), attack her and want to hill her. Abel could have done stuff, but when running on auto-pilot most of the time, hence the realizing that he's been in SAIA for nearly 40 years, one does not think about what should be done.
Disclaimer: I have only taken a few psychology classes, so I am not a source. But with being to multiple psyches and talked with a few, I have a slight grasp on the mind and how easy it can snap under little strain.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 29, 2010, 11:32:46 PM
-analytical post-
*applauds* Excellent to see someone break down the component causes to get at
why Abel is the way he is. I was looking through the archives of the exact encounter, and due to how brutal it was, came to the same conclusion. Now granted, the argument must be made that there are "some" people who are "strong" enough to handle these extreme levels of stress, but Abel is obviously not one of these "some people", nor did he ever have any help in becoming so.
Also, welcome to the forums. Brilliant entrance.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 10:54:34 PMYou don't need a 'Hero's sense of retribution' to realize a threat to those you love and to put things in motion to neutralize it. He didn't even try that much. He's a chicken.
Aww man, and THIS WHOLE TIME I somehow thought Abel was a CAT! I am so bad at this furry stuff D:
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 29, 2010, 11:32:46 PM
Disclaimer: I have only taken a few psychology classes, so I am not a source. But with being to multiple psyches and talked with a few, I have a slight grasp on the mind and how easy it can snap under little strain.
If you've taken any, I think that gives you a significant amount of credibility compared to others. And, your insights do make sense.
I wouldn't go as far as to say Abel's a saint... his sanity cannot be in any way, shape, or form intact. He's just not psycho... yet. Mao can call him a coward, but due to the degree of mental trauma Abel's been through, Aniz isn't a "Normal 'cubi" to Cookies-and-Cream. He's a specially tailored horror and monster for Abel. I think Abel would stand a better chance confronting Azathoth or Hastur than Aniz as far as keeping his mind intact goes.
Honestly, Mao... you call Abel a "coward", yet I don't think Abel has lived for those 375 years he's been at the academy. He has no need for sustenance. He has no need for sleep, or, he can sleep as long as he feels like. He has no obligation to do well in his classes, though they can sort of cope. He doesn't age. Essentially, he's been locked in what could essentially be described as mental stasis since arriving at SAIA. He's had to rebuild his life from scratch, so he now does well in his courses. It's why his attitude is so much different than it was. DMFA's Abel is hardly more AS 1's Abel than Devin Soulstealer is AS#1 Devin.
As a recent DMFA arc has demonstrated, Abel is just as mentally unstable as his father.
Abel's not a coward... He's just made some crappy Will saves.
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 29, 2010, 01:48:47 AM
As nasty as she seems she has a very good point. Though the fact that Ainz never finished a combat course sounds like something someone would have told Abel. Abel could have taken a few and and have beaten him.
I believe that this the the first
we've heard of it, though.
But unless Abel is ready to
kill Aniz, it doesn't really change anything. And studing at SAIA is what Anniz wants Abel to do, so he'd be playing Aniz's game.
Aniz is a dangerious madman, unless you've got someplace secure to lock him away, the only way to neutralize his threat is to kill him.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 29, 2010, 11:32:46 PM
-analytical post-
Well analyzed. If you're not already one, do consider a Psychology major. :mowsmile
Also, welcome to the forums!
Quote from: techmaster-glitch on March 29, 2010, 11:41:52 PM
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 29, 2010, 11:32:46 PM
-analytical post-
*applauds* Excellent to see someone break down the component causes to get at why Abel is the way he is. I was looking through the archives of the exact encounter, and due to how brutal it was, came to the same conclusion. Now granted, the argument must be made that there are "some" people who are "strong" enough to handle these extreme levels of stress, but Abel is obviously not one of these "some people", nor did he ever have any help in becoming so.
Also, welcome to the forums. Brilliant entrance.
I applaud that analysis as well, and was frankly hoping someone would do something like that. All I know is that when I read through Chapter 1 of Abel's Story for the first time I was shocked, saddened, angered, hurt, and while my feelings were nowhere near what Abel's were (I wasn't actually LIVING it), I could understand what he was going through and kind of see why DMFA Abel is the way he is. He's afraid to get close to anyone but at the same time he cares enough not to want anyone to suffer needlessly--both elements come from what he's experiencing here.
Quote from: PetFriendAmy on March 29, 2010, 02:25:43 PM
-Scared of fighting/killing in general. I mean, blood-phobia, for one. And if this (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1095.php) is anything to go off of, I'd say it's a fair bet that he's scared to kill people in general because he doesn't want to become like his father.
There are many ways to kill without bllod. Strangle them. Posion them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 30, 2010, 01:18:11 AM
Quote from: PetFriendAmy on March 29, 2010, 02:25:43 PM
-Scared of fighting/killing in general. I mean, blood-phobia, for one. And if this (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1095.php) is anything to go off of, I'd say it's a fair bet that he's scared to kill people in general because he doesn't want to become like his father.
There are many ways to kill without bllod. Strangle them. Posion them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...
Boil 'em Mash 'em Stick 'em in a stew... :U
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 10:07:31 PM
For someone commenting about the armchair aspects of others, I find it funny that you're implying that others wouldn't have been able to do a better job, or at least tried to. Believe it or not, people out there have lived in some pretty terrible situations and survived them. Some of them even, *gasp* learned from them!
This is true. However I'm not sure I agree with the premise that everyone can quickly and easily recover from a massive shock with no mental scars, which seems to be what you're saying.
Abel went to a funeral and by the time he came back he'd seen three people die right before his eyes - two of whom he'd known from childhood. He discovered that his father was criminally insane and that he (Abel) was a monster. Said father beat him up, kidnapped him and dumped him in a whole campus full of monsters. Even part of that is the sort of thing that post-traumatic stress disorder or a nervous breakdown is made of.
Now, I won't claim that I've seen anyone die before my eyes. But speaking from personal experience I have no problem with the idea that losing someone can leave you a bit weird even 15 years later. That's just from one death that I should, in hindsight, have seen coming.
I don't really see that with a more profound shock, someone being left with scars after 39 years is at all a stretch. IMHO many people would simply crack up.
Yes, from a strictly Darwinian point of view, it's a weakness. However it's not one that I can fault people for - real or imaginary - perhaps because it does strike a little too close to home for me.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 29, 2010, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 29, 2010, 07:12:38 PM
At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong. Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed? I'm not convinced I would, frankly. Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.
For someone commenting about the armchair aspects of others, I find it funny that you're implying that others wouldn't have been able to do a better job, or at least tried to. Believe it or not, people out there have lived in some pretty terrible situations and survived them. Some of them even, *gasp* learned from them!
Yeah, and sometimes they've gotten themselves and other people killed by trying to act like Bruce Willis when they should've been keeping their mouth shut and their head down. Defaulting to "80's Action Hero" is not always an appropriate response. It's almost never an appropriate response, in fact. In terms of promoting survivability, it's usually up there with such gems as jumping off the roof wearing a Batman cape.
Quote from: Naldru on March 29, 2010, 11:07:21 PM
I refer you to strip 422 where it says that the reason that Dan couldn't be found by SAIA was that he was a member of Cyra's clan. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_422.php) In Abel's Story (Part 2), strip 58, it says that Destania used Cyra's power to hide Aniz. I assumed that this amounted to same concealment technique used by other members of Cyra's clan. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_058.php)
And that could simply mean that it was something to block them from people inside that building itself, or even only Fa'lina. You don't know what the extent of that is or how it works.
QuoteI am viewing the attitudes of demons and cubi to be very similar to concepts that were common during the medieval period. Taun (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/Leader05.php) and Owona (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/Leader11.php) would have no hesitation about going to war if they felt that honor demanded it. Taun isn't the protector or the guardian, he is The Avenger. If Fa'lina had turned Aniz over to Zinvth, Taun would feel that the honor of the cubi had been tarnished and vengeance would be required. If Kria killed Aniz, this might also be viewed as requiring retribution. (This attitude currently exists in many tribal societies.) We're talking feuds of the level of Hatfield/McCoy or Capulet/Montague. Actually, we're talking much deadlier. You're talking of rational thought and calm discussion, while I'm looking at rage and vengeance. Take a look at the Balkans over the last hundred years or the feuds between groups in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don't see a whole lot of mention of *honor* on those pages, strangely enough. Nor do I see any mention of some overblown need to wage war to prove one's honor. Also, Taun is a she. See the chesticles? I like how, despite it not being said anywhere and with nothing to back it up, you're claiming that both Taun and Owona are morons who will start massive wars over something as stupid as honor. That's a *great* way to safeguard one's dwindling and rather beat down race. No, really.
Quote
Edit:
I just took another look at Amber's post.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.
There is an implication that SAIA and Zinvth politics are complicated. Has anybody considered that Abel may not only have been afraid of the death of himself or his mother, but a full scale war between cubi and Zinvth that would kill many of Abel's friends on both sides.
It's certainly a possibility, but I've not heard it out of his mouth or seen in his thought bubbles. I've not seen it be mentioned by anyone to him. Also, you seem to think that this one event is all that spurs my opinion of Abel being a little coward. I cite his modern day habits of pushing people away and unwillingness to leave his little security blanket of SAIA as but two very obvious ones.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 29, 2010, 11:32:46 PM
Hmm... Note time!
1) Shunned most of his childhood, physically and vocally abused by every kid in town.
2) Mom and dad, from the looks of it, arguing a lot, said arguments involving Abel and his wings.
While moving to Zinvth helped resolve those two problems a good bit, they would still have a little impact on him.
3) Cindy, the only person that was Abel's sister basically, committed suicide because of the fact she was an adventurer's child.
4) A fear of blood throughout his entire life, and with such severity that he gets physically ill.
5) Two people that were relatively nice to him after Cindy's funeral, Xander and Devin, both died when they get ambushed at a post. Devin dying while Abel sprouted head wings, making Abel believe it was his fault.
6) At home soon after, his mom and pop fight over him being an Incubus, in which his father morphs into Aniz, no longer facading.
7) Aniz hurts May, someone Abel would most likely look up to the most, as she's always been there for him, his support.
8 ) And then another of Abel's friends die. Just when she's about to get married.
9) While feeling like he's the cause of strife for everyone he knows, he suddenly is forced into SAIA. His life changed and ruined at the moment.
10) The finishing blow to it all being the threat to his mom, killing her and using her against me.
(I've probably missed a thing or two, oh well.)
Hmm... Now from my perspective, any normal person would suffer a major mental breakdown with all the bad stuff that happened. And may end up in an asylum.
Is Abel a coward in my eyes? No. No he isn't. He's a saint to me. He's somehow been able to not go insane over how bad his life went. It is understandable how he went into auto-pilot from his first day into the Academy to his mom's death. One's mind tends to shut itself down in extreme amounts of stress. And Abel's mind did just that, shut itself down so his fractured and cracked mind could attempt to repair itself. Crying and loneliness can happen. Hey, you can say that Abel could have developed any sort of Dissociative disorders because of this. I wouldn't hold it against him.
On to the Aniz part: Failing a class does not make one an idiot. It shows one being lazy and not caring. Look an Einstein, he was a genius but failed many classes. Aniz also learned much in his time away from the Academy, becoming more efficient and brutal. He was able to fool Kria Soulstealer, one of the most dangerous Demons there is, and that's not talking about a city full of demons and all sorts of creatures! How long have they lived there? 15 years at least? He's obviously had learned a lot to fool an entire city (Not counting the SAIA folk).
Aary: Yes, she is right in some points to her argument, but how she did it would not help. Coward? That'll just make Abel, who's mind really isn't stable with having to visit his mom on her deathbed (Though it did give some closure, knowing that she loved him and never blamed him), attack her and want to hill her. Abel could have done stuff, but when running on auto-pilot most of the time, hence the realizing that he's been in SAIA for nearly 40 years, one does not think about what should be done.
Disclaimer: I have only taken a few psychology classes, so I am not a source. But with being to multiple psyches and talked with a few, I have a slight grasp on the mind and how easy it can snap under little strain.
Disclaimer: I've only taken a few as well, Three actually, as they weren't required for my degree and I took them out of pure curiosity. So I may not have enough to convince you that I'm a bit familiar with the topic. (Oh, and if folks don't believe me, send me the cash and I'll go get a copy of my university transcript. It's only $40 CAD)
On your first point: Yes, but that's only one possibility. There's just as many cases where people who are suffering from trauma are actually galvanized by it. Not everything breaks folks. However it often requires the person to take active steps to pull themselves together. Abel didn't even try to pull himself together. You can wrap that up and say that "Oooh, it's too hard" and coddle folks like that until they recover on their own. It's certainly the modern view of how to fix that stuff, but frankly.. given how many folks break down these days and use both the psychology and medicinal fields as a crutch to get through life, I'm going to flat out say it doesn't work all that well. No one is really getting better. In fact I think it's because we're coddling people that they aren't. That's just my view though.
On your second point: No, but it does set up a little bit of the character. How do you know that he's become more efficient and brutal? We've seen him fight a bunch of untrained mooks who don't know the first thing about fighting or even 'cubi. His most 'efficient' kill was when his mind almost completely snapped. That's pretty flimsy. As for fooling them? They weren't really looking for him now were they? I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz: Fa'lina. Beyond that, do you really think that his own kind would be fooled by any tricks that he might pull?
Quote from: Scow2 on March 29, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
If you've taken any, I think that gives you a significant amount of credibility compared to others. And, your insights do make sense.
Awww, that's cute. You think no one else has taken any psych courses?
Quote from: Scow2 on March 29, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
I wouldn't go as far as to say Abel's a saint... his sanity cannot be in any way, shape, or form intact. He's just not psycho... yet. Mao can call him a coward, but due to the degree of mental trauma Abel's been through, Aniz isn't a "Normal 'cubi" to Cookies-and-Cream. He's a specially tailored horror and monster for Abel. I think Abel would stand a better chance confronting Azathoth or Hastur than Aniz as far as keeping his mind intact goes.
Yes, but there's the part. The coward part. The part that isn't even trying to overcome his fear. He'd rather just run and hide from this monster. Even though he's got a safe place (SAIA) where he can try and shore up his confidence and abilities to do so, he doesn't. He's paralyzed. That still makes him a coward in that regard. No amount of arguing with me on it is going to change my opinion, especially with flimsy arguments and overblown comparrisons.
Quote from: Scow2 on March 29, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
Honestly, Mao... you call Abel a "coward", yet I don't think Abel has lived for those 375 years he's been at the academy. He has no need for sustenance. He has no need for sleep, or, he can sleep as long as he feels like. He has no obligation to do well in his classes, though they can sort of cope. He doesn't age. Essentially, he's been locked in what could essentially be described as mental stasis since arriving at SAIA. He's had to rebuild his life from scratch, so he now does well in his courses. It's why his attitude is so much different than it was. DMFA's Abel is hardly more AS 1's Abel than Devin Soulstealer is AS#1 Devin.
Yet others who go there do move on. Wonder of wonders. HE put himself in that stasis so he could hide, and I'm not talking about SAIA. No matter how you slice it, he chose to hide himself away and push folks away. He chose to wallow in fear and self-pity. Fear of himself. Fear of his father. Fear of others. His choice. The length of time or where he did it are irrelevent. Especially since he's still doing it once he gets out of the academy, once he's been forced out of his stasis.
Quote from: Scow2 on March 29, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
As a recent DMFA arc has demonstrated, Abel is just as mentally unstable as his father.
Abel's not a coward... He's just made some crappy Will saves.
So mental instability covers cowardice? Now I've seen it all. Heck, as far as I'm concerned he failed the will saves by not even rolling the dice.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 30, 2010, 04:45:41 AM
This is true. However I'm not sure I agree with the premise that everyone can quickly and easily recover from a massive shock with no mental scars, which seems to be what you're saying.
Abel went to a funeral and by the time he came back he'd seen three people die right before his eyes - two of whom he'd known from childhood. He discovered that his father was criminally insane and that he (Abel) was a monster. Said father beat him up, kidnapped him and dumped him in a whole campus full of monsters. Even part of that is the sort of thing that post-traumatic stress disorder or a nervous breakdown is made of.
It could. I won't deny Abel's possibly got a few screws loose. However I fail to see how this point is supposed to change my mind that he's a coward. Maybe it's because I've seen folks who've lived through some horrific stuff and pulled their shit together that I don't buy this post-traumatic stress disorder crap. It's a crutch. A cowards crutch. "I saw some scary and terrible things now coddle me and never let me face any bad things again!" Sorry, I don't buy it. You can go ahead and demonize me now, folks, and start screaming about how I'm dishonoring your veterans but I've got a lot of friends in the military (isn't much else to do out this way) and they're pretty well of the same mind too.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 30, 2010, 04:45:41 AM
Now, I won't claim that I've seen anyone die before my eyes. But speaking from personal experience I have no problem with the idea that losing someone can leave you a bit weird even 15 years later. That's just from one death that I should, in hindsight, have seen coming.
I don't really see that with a more profound shock, someone being left with scars after 39 years is at all a stretch. IMHO many people would simply crack up.
I have. Several. In fact, I've had the job of delivering the phone call to let a parent know their child died in a freak accident on campus. Sure, I was only working as a security guard, but I was the assistant chief and I was on duty at the time. I wasn't the first responder, but I assure it wasn't long until I was on scene. That's only *one* example. Death happens. It's a natural part of life. I consider it cowardly alone to try and run from that fact.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 30, 2010, 04:45:41 AM
Yes, from a strictly Darwinian point of view, it's a weakness. However it's not one that I can fault people for - real or imaginary - perhaps because it does strike a little too close to home for me.
Some people can take those traumatic events and be galvanized by them. Others try but fail. The worst of them, in my opinion, don't even try. If we're going to base our arguments on sample sizes of others, then there's mine.
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 06:26:03 AM
Yeah, and sometimes they've gotten themselves and other people killed by trying to act like Bruce Willis when they should've been keeping their mouth shut and their head down. Defaulting to "80's Action Hero" is not always an appropriate response. It's almost never an appropriate response, in fact. In terms of promoting survivability, it's usually up there with such gems as jumping off the roof wearing a Batman cape.
Where did I say that he should run in guns blazing? Where did I even say that he shouldn't seek alternative methods? In fact, as I've said many times there are MANY ways to subdue others. In fact, I scoffed when someone brought up the term Hero. As for it *never* being the right response? I'm sorry but I call bullshit. Sometimes, sadly, you have to fight. You can say that it doesn't work that way in the real world and I'm going to have to say that I disagree. I don't like it, I don't long for it but I've been forced into it. Thanks for trying to make the false comparrison between doing something about a problem and vigilanteism. Great strawman that one.
So far not one of you has said something that convinces me he's not a coward. You've given what you feel are justifications for his cowardly behavior and that's fine. There are just as many justifications for why he shouldn't be a coward or why people should think him one. Heck, even Amber said both sides are valid, but yet you're all trying to come out and say that mine isn't. All I'm seeing now is people reaching farther and farther out to try and slip in either straw man aguments or to put me into situations where my opinions can be used to demonize me so you can put up a rallying call for others to come in and hate on me and simply overwhelm me. Some of you are even trying to compare the real world to this little fictional one and apply our psychology to a fictional race in an attempt to humanize Abel in such a way that I can be demonized further so you can win by saying: Augh, look at that Mao guy, he hates on vetrans and people who have mental instabilities, he's a bad person so his arguments are invalid.
I'm bored with this and will probably just start trolling this thread now. Feel free to ban me for it, but frankly this discussion has gotten old and the tears of the Abel fanbois no longer sate me.
Dude, all you've done from the outset is push this one angle, and you're far from in the minority about it. If I seem to be being contrary, it's because I've made the classic debating error of letting your argument define mine. Personally, I'm neutral. I just thought you and a few others were being harsh, unreasonable and overly demanding, and so I tried to offer an alternative viewpoint.
I acknowledge that I was being a little flippant with my last comment, though. It was certainly not intended to be taken entirely seriously.
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 07:10:20 AM
Dude, all you've done from the outset is push this one angle, and you're far from in the minority about it. If I seem to be being contrary, it's because I've made the classic debating error of letting your argument define mine. Personally, I'm neutral. I just thought you and a few others were being harsh, unreasonable and overly demanding, and so I tried to offer an alternative viewpoint.
I acknowledge that I was being a little flippant with my last comment, though. It was certainly not intended to be taken entirely seriously.
Harsh and unreasonable? Like screaming for the death of a character or to have her punched out for speaking her mind? Herpderp.
Sorry, but it's time for Abel's tongue lashing.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 07:15:40 AM
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 07:10:20 AM
Dude, all you've done from the outset is push this one angle, and you're far from in the minority about it. If I seem to be being contrary, it's because I've made the classic debating error of letting your argument define mine. Personally, I'm neutral. I just thought you and a few others were being harsh, unreasonable and overly demanding, and so I tried to offer an alternative viewpoint.
I acknowledge that I was being a little flippant with my last comment, though. It was certainly not intended to be taken entirely seriously.
Harsh and unreasonable? Like screaming for the death of a character or to have her punched out for speaking her mind? Herpderp.
Sorry, but it's time for Abel's tongue lashing.
SAIA isn't the yellow submarine, after all. Abel's gotta take his licks like anybody else.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 07:15:40 AM
Harsh and unreasonable? Like screaming for the death of a character or to have her punched out for speaking her mind?
I'm reasonably confident I've never done that. In fact, I believe I've never even mentioned Aary. Like,
ever. I'm not even a hundred percent certain who she is. Like I said earlier, atrocious memory. :blush
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 30, 2010, 01:18:11 AM
There are many ways to kill without bllod. Strangle them. Posion them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...
Sure, there are many ways to kill other people. Tell me, how many of them have
you ever actually used?
Because, well, that's essentially what you're asking Abel to do. Forget all notions of civilized behavior and become some sort of vengeance-obsessed vigilante.
Some cubi would evidently have no trouble with that -- witness Exhibit A, Aaryanna, right there --, but having grown up as essentially a normal kid among reasonably civilized Beings, Abel simply isn't one of them. Can't really say that I blame him for not wanting to become one, either.
(Let's not forget that this is the same Aary who will, a few hundred years down the timeline, suggest that Dan should practice with his cubi powers by grabbing some random girl off the street and rending her limb from limb -- and while his reaction made for a funny strip, I never once got the vibe that she was simply kidding. Her perspective is at least as skewed as Abel's in its own way.)
Don't have to kill anyone. There are many ways to neutralize or subdue a threat. I'm really starting to sound like a broken record here, to the point where even I'm pretty tired of saying it. Abel hasn't been willing to entertain *any* of them.
Quote from: A. Lurker on March 30, 2010, 08:41:06 AM
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 30, 2010, 01:18:11 AM
There are many ways to kill without blood. Strangle them. Poison them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...
Sure, there are many ways to kill other people. Tell me, how many of them have you ever actually used?
Because, well, that's essentially what you're asking Abel to do. Forget all notions of civilized behavior and become some sort of vengeance-obsessed vigilante. Some cubi would evidently have no trouble with that -- witness Exhibit A, Aaryanna, right there --, but having grown up as essentially a normal kid among reasonably civilized Beings, Abel simply isn't one of them. Can't really say that I blame him for not wanting to become one, either.
(Let's not forget that this is the same Aary who will, a few hundred years down the timeline, suggest that Dan should practice with his cubi powers by grabbing some random girl off the street and rending her limb from limb -- and while his reaction made for a funny strip, I never once got the vibe that she was simply kidding. Her perspective is at least as skewed as Abel's in its own way.)
Oh, come on. Let's be realistic. Violence (and the threat of violence) is the cornerstone of civilisation. How long do you think society would last without an army and police force standing by to wreak retribution on people who stray too far from accepted social norms? There's no doubt that, if Aniz is the unsanctioned mad-dog he appears to be, he should be... dealt with, in whatever way is most effective. The only doubt I have about that is if the things he does
are unsanctioned, or if Aniz serves a patron who shields him from the consequences of his actions.
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 09:09:19 AM
Quote from: A. Lurker on March 30, 2010, 08:41:06 AM
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 30, 2010, 01:18:11 AM
There are many ways to kill without blood. Strangle them. Poison them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...
Sure, there are many ways to kill other people. Tell me, how many of them have you ever actually used?
Because, well, that's essentially what you're asking Abel to do. Forget all notions of civilized behavior and become some sort of vengeance-obsessed vigilante. Some cubi would evidently have no trouble with that -- witness Exhibit A, Aaryanna, right there --, but having grown up as essentially a normal kid among reasonably civilized Beings, Abel simply isn't one of them. Can't really say that I blame him for not wanting to become one, either.
(Let's not forget that this is the same Aary who will, a few hundred years down the timeline, suggest that Dan should practice with his cubi powers by grabbing some random girl off the street and rending her limb from limb -- and while his reaction made for a funny strip, I never once got the vibe that she was simply kidding. Her perspective is at least as skewed as Abel's in its own way.)
Oh, come on. Let's be realistic. Violence (and the threat of violence) is the cornerstone of civilisation. How long do you think society would last without an army and police force standing by to wreak retribution on people who stray too far from accepted social norms? There's no doubt that, if Aniz is the unsanctioned mad-dog he appears to be, he should be... dealt with, in whatever way is most effective. The only doubt I have about that is if the things he does are unsanctioned, or if Aniz serves a patron who shields him from the consequences of his actions.
If that was true, though, I wonder why Fa'Lina couldn't just chuck him back into Zvinth like she wanted to. Why would Taun's clan care, if he was such a threat to the race?
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 09:09:19 AM
Oh, come on. Let's be realistic. Violence (and the threat of violence) is the cornerstone of civilisation. How long do you think society would last without an army and police force standing by to wreak retribution on people who stray too far from accepted social norms? There's no doubt that, if Aniz is the unsanctioned mad-dog he appears to be, he should be... dealt with, in whatever way is most effective. The only doubt I have about that is if the things he does are unsanctioned, or if Aniz serves a patron who shields him from the consequences of his actions.
It really is. It's amazing how few people realize that. It's a part of all life. Plants, animals and even micro-organisms. Violence and death are natural parts of life. To turn your eyes away from it because it's scary or not nice is asking for it to blind side you. We, as humans, have the benefit of the availability of higher things like Love and Compassion and Reason but we do ourselves a disservice if we deny the more basic aspects of what it means to be alive. In all things, balance.
As for your theory? It's a neat one, and there's no evidence to support it, but I'd be pleasantly surprised to find out that was the case. Course, I'm pleasantly surprised and delighted by everything in this comic so far, so that's not a stretch. I'm not interested in trying to spoil the story just yet though. I'd rather sit back an watch it unfurl and let it tell itself out before I start trying to go trying to investigate things. Wait until I have all of the data before I move, as it were.
A friend of mine once told me about something his friend had said to someone who kept speculating during a movie. The comment was: "The movie starts, EXPLAINS ITSELF, and then ends. Sit down and watch and you'll likely get your answers." That's after two layers of paraphrasing, of course, but the point stands well I think.
Quote from: Arcblade on March 30, 2010, 09:19:37 AM
If that was true, though, I wonder why Fa'Lina couldn't just chuck him back into Zvinth like she wanted to. Why would Taun's clan care, if he was such a threat to the race?
A few folks have been wondering that, actually. Hence why Pascal wondered if there wasn't someone pulling some strings for Aniz. Someone bigger and nastier and with whom our little cuckoo's plans just happen to coincide with. I mean, after the looney rebuilds his clan, just what do you think he might do with it? In truth, I've got a couple of ideas that might be interesting if they were to come to pass.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 09:21:33 AM
A friend of mine once told me about something his friend had said to someone who kept speculating during a movie. The comment was: "The movie starts, EXPLAINS ITSELF, and then ends. Sit down and watch and you'll likely get your answers." That's after two layers of paraphrasing, of course, but the point stands well I think.
Trying to figure things out ahead of time is kind of game my family and I play when we watch a movie or TV. In our defence, we don't get meta about it or anything (which would be cheating and no fun at all), but it does sometimes result in us spoiling surprises. In any event, it's a bad habit and I really should knock it off, especially in mixed company.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 06:33:38 AM
I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz: Fa'lina.
I beg to differ. Kria was able to set up wards that SHE THOUGHT would stop Fa'Lina. That's a significant difference. I don't recall Fa'Lina testing the wards, or demonstrating just how ineffectual they would be against her, or even demonstrating that they actually worked.
We simply don't know if it would or would not have stopped her. Unless you know something I don't.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 30, 2010, 09:49:06 AM
I beg to differ. Kria was able to set up wards that SHE THOUGHT would stop Fa'Lina. That's a significant difference. I don't recall Fa'Lina testing the wards, or demonstrating just how ineffectual they would be against her, or even demonstrating that they actually worked.
We simply don't know if it would or would not have stopped her. Unless you know something I don't.
Fair point. We don't know if they would have worked or not, but I don't see Kria as the bluffing sort nor the sort to take unnecessary risks. Fa'lina also was pretty keen on the little pissing contest she was having with Kria so I kinda doubt she'd pass up the opportunity to play that chip, but that's pretty flimsy as far as evidence goes.
As for me knowing something you don't know? Plenty of that. Plenty of things you know that I don't know, too. I'm not about to reveal all of my cards though.
Heh. For what it's worth, my take on the little pissing contest is that Fa'Lina knew that Kria was well outmatched, but wasn't about to squash her like a bug, because she wanted Kria to be reasonable about things, and stealing lollipops from babies doesn't make the baby likely to agree with you.
Minimal effort on Fa'Lina's part, maximum result. Of course, it depends on what result she wanted, and that is still a bit up in the air...
... but all that is a discussion for another thread and another time, I think.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 30, 2010, 09:59:56 AM
Heh. For what it's worth, my take on the little pissing contest is that Fa'Lina knew that Kria was well outmatched, but wasn't about to squash her like a bug, because she wanted Kria to be reasonable about things, and stealing lollipops from babies doesn't make the baby likely to agree with you.
Minimal effort on Fa'Lina's part, maximum result. Of course, it depends on what result she wanted, and that is still a bit up in the air...
... but all that is a discussion for another thread and another time, I think.
power, after all isn't about strength sometimes, it's about careful application and timing.. knowing when to use it.
Mao, not to be mean with this, but from your posts, you kinda seem like General Patton during WW2 with his 'slapping incident'. I'm sure most know about it, but being how Patton slapped and went on a tirade on a soldier for having Shellshock because of the war. A person's mind is fragile and fickle, 3 deaths plus what Aniz did would break a few people. Plus when one's mind breaks, one loses the ability to make decisions. Like I said in my first post, they go into a sort of auto-pilot. Emotions can play on it. Hence why Fa'lina removed Abel's emotions for a while so she could have a somewhat civil discussion with him.
Mental trauma affects people separately and everyone has a different limit. I don't like bringing myself into talks/arguments, but I'm going to be an example. I snapped in high school before. For a minor reason too. Doing work during english class, but as everyone was talking loudly, when the volume got too high, I broke into a hysterical fit with lots of tears. I had to be forcibly removed from the room and taken home. It may have been pointless, but mental wear is different for each person, like I said at the first point.
For Abel, the only way he could have done anything would have been if he was given psychological help. But when you're in a place where you're told what you 'should' do and what 'needs' to be done, no matter how much help if offered by people of dubious nature in the basic matter, it will amount to nothing. Abel should have been looked at by a mind wizard, not berated for basically what's gone from rolling down a hill to a leap over a cliff face.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:25:52 AM
Mao, not to be mean with this, but from your posts, you kinda seem like General Patton during WW2 with his 'slapping incident'. I'm sure most know about it, but being how Patton slapped and went on a tirade on a soldier for having Shellshock because of the war. A person's mind is fragile and fickle, 3 deaths plus what Aniz did would break a few people. Plus when one's mind breaks, one loses the ability to make decisions. Like I said in my first post, they go into a sort of auto-pilot. Emotions can play on it. Hence why Fa'lina removed Abel's emotions for a while so she could have a somewhat civil discussion with him.
I like how you're straw manning me by comparing me to a completely different person and in an event that many people have very strong feelings about. I appreciate it, I do. If you want to burn me for Patton's sins, by all means. He cursed at them, slapped them and yelled at them all the while flying into a rage at them. I've done no such thing in this thread. In fact, I've completely avoided it. Thanks for comparing me to it though. It's an awesome feeling.
I read your first post. I know what you said and I still hold the opinion that he's a coward. Nothing you've said here convinces me otherwise, even your attempts to demonize me and my opinion.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:25:52 AM
Mental trauma affects people separately and everyone has a different limit. I don't like bringing myself into talks/arguments, but I'm going to be an example. I snapped in high school before. For a minor reason too. Doing work during english class, but as everyone was talking loudly, when the volume got too high, I broke into a hysterical fit with lots of tears. I had to be forcibly removed from the room and taken home. It may have been pointless, but mental wear is different for each person, like I said at the first point.
Yes, and I'm entitled to my opinion about those responses to wear. Again, you're not doing anything to convince me here or show me evidence to the contrary. All you're saying is that "Life is hard for some people, so you should be nicer." Life is hard for EVERYONE. As far as I'm concerned, Abel needs to man up. He hasn't yet, so to me, he's a coward.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:25:52 AM
For Abel, the only way he could have done anything would have been if he was given psychological help. But when you're in a place where you're told what you 'should' do and what 'needs' to be done, no matter how much help if offered by people of dubious nature in the basic matter, it will amount to nothing. Abel should have been looked at by a mind wizard, not berated for basically what's gone from rolling down a hill to a leap over a cliff face.
You really think that getting psychological help is the only way to recover from a trauma? Do you know how relatively new psychology is as a modern science? How did people cope before it, hmm?
As for berating him? People were trying to help him. Look at Mink. Mink was trying his damndest all along to help him and he just shut him out and convinced himself that Mink was wasting his time.
I'm going to say this, since you seem to be under a somewhat dangerous perception: Psychology is not some magic pill that will sort out your troubles for you. It will not give you the tools you need to solve your problems. You, the person involved, has to take action. You must get up and move, even if it's just the first step to ask people to help you overcome your fears and inhibitions. He couldn't even do that. He gave up. He chickened out. I have no sympathy for that kind of behavior.
Actually, I'm linking to how the coward comments are. Patten saw those with shellshock as cowards, unable to man up basically. You see Able as a coward and want him to man up. That's all that I'm comparing. Patten did the stupid with his violence.
So, you're saying that if your life went 100% like Abel's, no putting in what you went through in your own, you'd do differently?
And on the psychological help, the application of psychology is new through the use of shrinks. Throughout history, it has been happening since ancient times. Warriors of Sparta, Rome, Egypt, China, etc. from basically 20,000 BC through 1700s all told their tales. That was their means to psychological coping, sharing their wars and fights with their family, fellow warriors, etc. Nowadays, with the demonization of fighting and actually talking, specialists in the mind are growing to take that place for secluding talks.
And Mink? Mink isn't helping by telling Abel what to do, but by treating Abel as a person, not a tool to use nor as a means to an end. Mink is what Abel needs to begin the long process of healing. Someone who is a friend and there as a support. Mink's perfect for that! The squiggly that he is.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 10:39:21 AM
As for berating him? People were trying to help him. Look at Mink. Mink was trying his damnedest all along to help him and he just shut him out and convinced himself that Mink was wasting his time.
To be fair, Mink's brand of helpfulness is... not to everyone's taste. Personally, I've always found aggressively upbeat people rather wearying.
And, with the regard to the psychology issue, people often
didn't cope with mental illness prior to the advent of psychology. They just went mad and either were killed, ostracised, or had holes drilled in their heads to let out the evil spirits.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:57:02 AM
Actually, I'm linking to how the coward comments are. Patten saw those with shellshock as cowards, unable to man up basically. You see Able as a coward and want him to man up. That's all that I'm comparing. Patten did the stupid with his violence.
I've called Abel a coward and Patten called someone a coward. Great link. Patten flew into a rage at them too, and if you'd even read the wikipedia article on it: when a valid reason was given (the soldier had malaria and was a bit out of it as a result) Patten even apologized to one of the soldiers in question. You've made the comparison between me and someone who was angry, tired and flew off the handle at someone else and who was arguably demonized for his actions. Comparing me to him is, whether this was intentional or not, a demonization of me. It weakens your argument and makes it look like nothing more than an attempt to strawman me. I don't appreciate it.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:57:02 AM
So, you're saying that if your life went 100% like Abel's, no putting in what you went through in your own, you'd do differently?
If I went through life 100% like Abel, I'd be Abel. I'm not. I'm a very different person and have handled horrible situations and you don't see me bawwing about how hard it is. How is this hard for you to imagine? Have you become so fooled by everyone going on about their many psychological disorders that you can't believe that some people can actually stand up to trauma? Do you honestly think there are no folks made of sterner stuff out there? I don't like people who give up. Even if he had tried, just a little, we would not be having this conversation. He didn't. He gave up. I don't like him for it. I see his choice as cowardly.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:57:02 AM
And on the psychological help, the application of psychology is new through the use of shrinks. Throughout history, it has been happening since ancient times. Warriors of Sparta, Rome, Egypt, China, etc. from basically 20,000 BC through 1700s all told their tales. That was their means to psychological coping, sharing their wars and fights with their family, fellow warriors, etc. Nowadays, with the demonization of fighting and actually talking, specialists in the mind are growing to take that place for secluding talks.
I'm sorry, but if you want to call 'just talking' Psychology, then we have a very different view of what Psychology is and does. Here's the thing though. The little rub in that. Abel had the chance to do all of that. People tried very hard to do that for him. He turned them all away. He curled up in his shell, pushed them all away and did nothing. He just sat there and cowered. Even those soldiers at least *tried* to seek help. He did not. He's a true coward.
Quote from: InsanityRequiem on March 30, 2010, 10:57:02 AM
And Mink? Mink isn't helping by telling Abel what to do, but by treating Abel as a person, not a tool to use nor as a means to an end. Mink is what Abel needs to begin the long process of healing. Someone who is a friend and there as a support. Mink's perfect for that! The squiggly that he is.
Not all of them were trying to tell him what to do. In many cases they were saying that he had options and that there were those who wanted to help. He turned every last one of them away from what we've been told so far. So unless you know something I don't, I'd say you've got no case on that point.
wow, if this argument goes around any more, we'll haveta stick it in the LHC so it can go around even faster
Mao. You may be of the opinion that Abel is a coward. But I am of the opinion that you decided that because he didn't do what you wanted and are just trying to make your position appear more reasonable and evidence-based than it really is. I also do not believe that InsanityRequiem was setting up a straw man. He was focusing on the abrupt branding of people as cowards without due consideration. He is not tarring you with all of Patton's sins. He is pointing out the one you share.
In any event, you are not convincing anyone that Abel was a coward. That is probably due in part to the fact that you will not entertain the possibility that he was not.
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
Mao. You may be of the opinion that Abel is a coward. But I am of the opinion that you decided that because he didn't do what you wanted and are just trying to make your position appear more reasonable and evidence-based than it really is. I also do not believe that InsanityRequiem was setting up a straw man. He was focusing on the abrupt branding of people as cowards without due consideration. He is not tarring you with all of Patton's sins. He is pointing out the one you share.
In any event, you are not convincing anyone that Abel was a coward. That is probably due in part to the fact that you will not entertain the possibility that he was not.
weigh up the evidence that Abel hasn't matured much at all and you'll see he does have a slight yellow streak up his back. >:3
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
Mao. You may be of the opinion that Abel is a coward. But I am of the opinion that you decided that because he didn't do what you wanted and are just trying to make your position appear more reasonable and evidence-based than it really is. I also do not believe that InsanityRequiem was setting up a straw man. He was focusing on the abrupt branding of people as cowards without due consideration. He is not tarring you with all of Patton's sins. He is pointing out the one you share.
In any event, you are not convincing anyone that Abel was a coward. That is probably due in part to the fact that you will not entertain the possibility that he was not.
I will entertain it when evidence to the contrary is provided. None has. All that's been given so far is justifications of cowardice and attempts to make my opinions seem like more than they are in an attempt to cow me into repenting like some sorry little sinner. If you want to make this personal, we can. You want to start saying things about me without knowing me? That's unfortunate.
I've provided what I feel is the evidence and gave my reasons. If that's not enough for you, that's fine. It's your opinion. Attacking my opinion without supporting evidence though, just makes you a troll. Particularly with the tone you're taking. But I'm not going to attack you on something as ephemeral as that. I'll stick to your argument.
As for InsanityRequiem setting up a Strawman? I'm sorry but when you take one thing that people have a strong feeling about and have been SHOWN to get mad about and then try and apply it to another argument, you're using a strawman argument. You're attempting to take the vitriol that people felt over that event and use it burn the other person by likening them and their side to it.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. In fact, I'm stating my opinion and agreement with Aary's point of view. Everyone else is trying to convince me that I'm wrong.
As for not giving due consideration? I'm sorry, but Abel has been around in this comic for a while. Both the main and his side one. I've had time to think about this for a while and have never really liked Abel that much. Forgive me if I'm happy to see someone confront this fictional character on an aspect of himself that makes me not like him.
tl;dr: You're a troll. Forum is srsbsns.
Essentially this situation can be summed up thusly:
Abel went through hell and had his world turned upside down. His father then dragged him to SAIA and told him that if he did something stupid (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_109.php), he'd kill May. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_110.php) Abel then stayed at SAIA for roughly 39 years. In that time, multiple people, including Aaryanna and Destania (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_049.php), offered him help with his situation, and he turned them down. He had the opportunity to take combat classes, and did not (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_096.php). Which bring us to now, with his mother dead of old age, and Aary thoroughly pissed off at him.
Whether or not he's impressive for managing to avoid post-traumatic stress disorder/various other disorders, or a coward for his lack of action, is a matter of opinion.
It's a fact that some people break down under mental and emotional stress, while some people go down, shake themselves off, and get right back up. Those who break down tend to lose sight of reality for a time, seeing obstacles as greater than they truly are, living and reliving the same nightmares over and over without making progress, etc.
Of the that former group, most get back up after a period of time. Mao is quite right: psychology is a fairly new development in history. Most mental and emotional injuries heal with time, with or without professional help. The time involved may be anywhere from several weeks to decades, but eventually it happens.
Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 29, 2010, 08:03:03 PM
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 29, 2010, 07:12:38 PM
At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong. Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed? I'm not convinced I would, frankly. Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.
You make an excellent point. We aren't in Abel's shoes so do we actually know what we ourselves would do in this situation? I myself would probably do some things that many would consider "cowardly".
True. But you might be surprised by some people's reactions. I'm a nice guy. Probably too nice. As a personal explanation: I don't want
anyone to dislike me, so I go out of my way to avoid giving anyone a reason for dislike.
That said, the fastest way to make me act in potentially violent ways is to seriously mess with my friends and family. The rare times that I've fought people is because of that, and I'd guess that in Abel's position I'd've helped myself to Destania's mentorship because I would be unable to ignore Aniz' threat against my Mom.
Quote from: Turnsky on March 30, 2010, 12:48:44 PM
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
Mao. You may be of the opinion that Abel is a coward. But I am of the opinion that you decided that because he didn't do what you wanted and are just trying to make your position appear more reasonable and evidence-based than it really is. I also do not believe that InsanityRequiem was setting up a straw man. He was focusing on the abrupt branding of people as cowards without due consideration. He is not tarring you with all of Patton's sins. He is pointing out the one you share.
In any event, you are not convincing anyone that Abel was a coward. That is probably due in part to the fact that you will not entertain the possibility that he was not.
weigh up the evidence that Abel hasn't matured much at all and you'll see he does have a slight yellow streak up his back. >:3
:stalk
You're using that little "I'm trolling you" smiley again. Don't think I don't see you.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 12:48:52 PM
I will entertain it when evidence to the contrary is provided. None has. All that's been given so far is justifications of cowardice and attempts to make my opinions seem like more than they are in an attempt to cow me into repenting like some sorry little sinner. If you want to make this personal, we can. You want to start saying things about me without knowing me? That's unfortunate.
(Emphasis added; remainder left in for context.)
I'd strongly recommend, as a moderator, that the two of you do not take this option. Seriously. So far, while there has been disagreement, I've been willing to let it slide, because it's remained gentlemanly. At least a little bit.
Pascal, Pvblivs, I'm looking at you two. Mao knows what will happen if he steps over the line. Do you two? Don't make me regret my forbearance. You won't like my sock puppet.
Really? Damn it... I thought I'd managed to keep things from getting hostile, too.
QuoteI'd strongly recommend, as a moderator, that the two of you do not take this option.
I can assure you that I am not trying to make this personal. For Abel's character, I simply think we don't know enough about him to make a judgement. But on this thread I have made three comments, one stating that I thought that some people were rushing to judgement (and there are several people I thought did that), one in which I criticized a poor stance from someone who seems to be arguing from the point of assuming his conclusion and looks like he thinks everyone should agree with him (there I said that I though that the accusation of "straw man" was incorrect), and this one in which I am attempting to defend myself.
I am not seeking to offend anyone. I did try to show someone what his posts looked like from another perspective. If he took personal offense to that, I am sorry.
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 02:17:12 PM
QuoteI'd strongly recommend, as a moderator, that the two of you do not take this option.
I can assure you that I am not trying to make this personal. For Abel's character, I simply think we don't know enough about him to make a judgement. But on this thread I have made three comments, one stating that I thought that some people were rushing to judgement (and there are several people I thought did that), one in which I criticized a poor stance from someone who seems to be arguing from the point of assuming his conclusion and looks like he thinks everyone should agree with him (there I said that I though that the accusation of "straw man" was incorrect), and this one in which I am attempting to defend myself.
I am not seeking to offend anyone. I did try to show someone what his posts looked like from another perspective. If he took personal offense to that, I am sorry.
So, you're assuming I'm rushing to judgement. Saying I've got a poor stance but giving no evidence to the contrary of my points. Assuming that I'm trying to convince others when I'm simply stating my opinion and reasons for it and giving my point of view when they try and tell me I'm wrong and then trying to tell me that I apparently don't know what a straw man argument is.
Let's pick this one apart a bit:
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
Mao. You may be of the opinion that Abel is a coward. But I am of the opinion that you decided that because he didn't do what you wanted and are just trying to make your position appear more reasonable and evidence-based than it really is.
Looks to me like a personal attack. I.E. Trolling. You've made an assumption about me and even went so far as to claim (and in a very subtle way, truly) that I'm full of bullshit.
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
I also do not believe that InsanityRequiem was setting up a straw man. He was focusing on the abrupt branding of people as cowards without due consideration. He is not tarring you with all of Patton's sins. He is pointing out the one you share.
Oh look! You're calling me a sinner and assuming that, like Patton, that I'm rushing to these judgements. As I've said, we've had Abel about for quite a while and I've seen enough to form my own opinion on him. You've made some pretty quick judgements about me for someone who hasn't been on this forum very long or never even spoken to me.
Quote from: Pvblivs on March 30, 2010, 12:33:05 PM
In any event, you are not convincing anyone that Abel was a coward. That is probably due in part to the fact that you will not entertain the possibility that he was not.
Aaaand look! Another assumption! TWO even! I've struck gold here. Not only did you assume that I was trying to convince others, but you've also outright tried to deny me credibility by saying I won't entertain alternatives. Except, I have!
TL;DR: Again, you're a troll and now you're a back-pedaling troll. I'll probably get smacked for posting this, but I don't care.
Coming at this whole thing from a different angle... What should Abel have done? Open question to anyone who wants to answer it. Given Abel's personal history and his level of access to the resources offered by SAIA, and discounting the possibility of directly assaulting Aniz due to Abels crippling haemophobia, what would you have done? Or, rather what course of action would you have recommended?
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 02:54:09 PM
Coming at this whole thing from a different angle... What should Abel have done? Open question to anyone who wants to answer it. Given Abel's personal history and his level of access to the resources offered by SAIA, and discounting the possibility of directly assaulting Aniz due to Abels crippling haemophobia, what would you have done? Or, rather what course of action would you have recommended?
I've already stated my views on this, but to sum it up: Anything. He had so many options. All of them were worth at least exploring, even if only to confirm his views and beliefs about the situation. It may be that he checks them all out and then realizes : "Damn, I can't win in any of these! No matter what angle I've explored honestly, no matter how fully I've looked into it, they all end in defeat!"
Yeah, yeah, but specifically. I'm not trying to trip you up or anything. I'm genuinely interested in peoples ideas.
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 02:54:09 PM
Coming at this whole thing from a different angle... What should Abel have done? Open question to anyone who wants to answer it. Given Abel's personal history and his level of access to the resources offered by SAIA, and discounting the possibility of directly assaulting Aniz due to Abels crippling haemophobia, what would you have done? Or, rather what course of action would you have recommended?
Hooray, a possible constructive conversation. Finally.
Even if Abel didn't want to kill his father, he really should have at least enrolled in combat courses. There are many ways to kill that don't involve seeing blood, and a few more than don't involve seeing blood 'til it's too late for the person.
If he was up for protecting his mother, or even getting back into contact with her, enlisting Aaryanna or some of his more understanding classmates would have helped immensely. Not only could they teach him tricks not taught in class, they could provide backup and ideas.
Honestly, with the hemophobia, I'd probably see if I could overcome it. Phobias are tricky, but the techniques used to remove them actually aren't that difficult. Perhaps Mink would lend a hand? Healing *is* something he wants to do, and mental healing is just as important as physical healing.
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 02:54:09 PM
Coming at this whole thing from a different angle... What should Abel have done? Open question to anyone who wants to answer it. Given Abel's personal history and his level of access to the resources offered by SAIA, and discounting the possibility of directly assaulting Aniz due to Abels crippling haemophobia, what would you have done? Or, rather what course of action would you have recommended?
Leave SAIA. Flee that Tir-Na-Nog of stunted time. Go to Zinvth. Mock Aniz to lure him into Kria. DO NOT ask how he died.
Yes, I see how he couldn't do that. His will was broken and he didn't cope out by himself. Well, nice job of helping him whoever took responsibility for his life! Noone? Oh, not surprising. He truly should have stayed with Kria, with all her quirks, she genuinely cared for his well-being, unlike Fa'Lina.
Kinda distracted by the image of Mink in a construction worker's outfit (Make it shirtless), and a hard hat. It's giggle worthy.
And what Abel should have done? Hmm... I can't really say. Though I'd say go at it slow and recuperate. Start off with a gardening class before taking some fighting.
Quote from: Arcblade on March 30, 2010, 03:40:31 PM
Even if Abel didn't want to kill his father, he really should have at least enrolled in combat courses. There are many ways to kill that don't involve seeing blood, and a few more than don't involve seeing blood 'til it's too late for the person.
If he was up for protecting his mother, or even getting back into contact with her, enlisting Aaryanna or some of his more understanding classmates would have helped immensely. Not only could they teach him tricks not taught in class, they could provide backup and ideas.
Honestly, with the hemophobia, I'd probably see if I could overcome it. Phobias are tricky, but the techniques used to remove them actually aren't that difficult. Perhaps Mink would lend a hand? Healing *is* something he wants to do, and mental healing is just as important as physical healing.
I definitely concur with your suggestion that he should seek treatment for his haemophobia. I mean, everyone has things that freak them out, but the passing out and the hurling are a bit ridiculous. The circumstances in which a person is likely to encounter blood are generally less than ideal in the first place, and phobic responses as strong as the ones Abel tends to suffer from could only exacerbate already hazardous situations.
I'm not sure I agree with you about the combat training, however. Whilst I would encourage anyone to study one or more means of self-defense, I don't think it's realistic to go into even a minor scuffle expecting not to see a little blood spilled, even if only from a graze or a split lip.
Quote from: Congo Jack on March 30, 2010, 04:10:08 PM
Leave SAIA. Flee that Tir-Na-Nog of stunted time. Go to Zinvth. Mock Aniz to lure him into Kria. DO NOT ask how he died.
Yes, I see how he couldn't do that. His will was broken and he didn't cope out by himself. Well, nice job of helping him whoever took responsibility for his life! Noone? Oh, not surprising. He truly should have stayed with Kria, with all her quirks, she genuinely cared for his well-being, unlike Fa'Lina.
I get the impression you're not a fan of the ol' SAIA. Regardless, I guess the point is more what you would do, or what you would urge Abel to do if it were you who was responsible for him. Perhaps you could elaborate on this plan of yours for me a little? I'm not sure I follow.
What's been ticking me off about Mao's "arguments" is that while he's nominally arguing about why Abel's a coward (a point I may or may not contend), he's also been explicitly and implicitly saying his offensive degree of hatred toward Abel applies to anyone who's had their actions dictated by mental trauma. The part where he started gloating that he believes PTSD/Shell Shock is a form of cowardice undeserving of sympathy was 100% flamebait, and he even bragged about it, and insinuated that other mental disorders are equally bullshit... I think that can be classified as a personal attack against anyone who has experienced, or know someone who's experienced such mental disorders.
Back on topic, as for the argument that sympathy for someone suffering from PTSD is a crutch, I agree. I disagree with Mao's belief that said crutch should be removed to make him "Man up". The entire purpose of a crutch is to support someone who lacks the means to do so himself. Cowardice is the cost of Sanity and Life. He's trying to avoid anything that will remind him of his last day as a Being. He pushes everyone away to avoid making friends because every single damn person he's been close to has ended up prematurely dead. If he were to start relating to someone as a friend again, he'd have a very nasty, unwanted reliving of the experience, possibly replacing Cindy, Devin, Xander, or Hennya with his friend. Aniz's threat to his mother isn't what held him up in the academy without contacting her. What held him back was his own association of his mother with that day. His so-called "cowardice" is a mental block that makes him incapable of doing anything that could possibly trigger those memories, and thus keep him somewhat sane.
The problem with an anxiety disorder, particularly PTSD and phobias, is that it makes taking an action concerning the source of the anxiety just as difficult as it is for a hemaplegic to move under his own power, or someone under the effects of an opiate to experience extreme pain. Abel has a serious problem with a very nasty Catch-22 when it comes to trying to get help: In order to get psychotherapy to get him over his inability to approach and actively interact with people he needs to approach or interact with someone who can help him get over his disability.
Fortunately, Fa'lina has taken steps to help him with his disorders, twice so far. First, by forcibly taking him to see his mother against his will at a time he couldn't object or try to put off for later. As depressing as seeing his mother die was, the positive note on which she passed away eased the fear of his mother being killed and giving closure to Abel's pre-Cubi life. And in DMFA proper, he's been essentially kicked out of his comfort zone into an area where he'd be forced to regularly interact and grow close to others. The latest few strips have shown him "Starting to 'Man Up'".
Quote from: Pascal on March 30, 2010, 04:17:47 PM
I get the impression you're not a fan of the ol' SAIA. Regardless, I guess the point is more what you would do, or what you would urge Abel to do if it were you who was responsible for him. Perhaps you could elaborate on this plan of yours for me a little? I'm not sure I follow.
Well, recently I found myself feeling displeased with SAIA. The fact about a whole clan (maybe even more) is avoiding it kinda made it clear. I's place of security, but also stops any development.
On Abel's case: His problem is not having a 'parent'. Someone who will stand for him. A good friend who really care about him and strong enough to protect him. Would that friend teach Abel things to defend himself? Probably. Not important, because he/she
would just go and kill Aniz. That's what parents do. Could Destania do that? With her hands tied. But she wouldn't. She didn't care. (Good things she left SAIA - she's better off now.) Aary is so fond of her fighting technique? Care to stay beside him and
help him in battle? Shut up then. Kria would, without a doubt. Sadly she wasn't there.
So, if you were responsible for Abel, you'd try to cut him out of the whole affair and either bump off Aniz yourself or arrange for him to be bumped off? Abel might not you thank you for it. People can be funny about this kind of thing.
I can see what you mean about SAIA, and, to an extent, I agree. On the other hand, though, I feel that there are certain things 'cubi ought to be taught before they're allowed out on their own, both for the good of the 'cubi and the people they'll encounter out in the world.
There is one thing, you guys maybe forgetting about Cubi... which make any phobias or feelings harder to shake... It is that Cubi can feel/feed on any emotion.
Their affinity is only their favorite food. So, Gothic cubi are really downer for everyone, and can be very destructive.
Confusion is Abel's favorite food, you know. Be other people's confusion or his own.
PBH
Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on March 30, 2010, 06:00:37 PM
There is one thing, you guys maybe forgetting about Cubi... which make any phobias or feelings harder to shake... It is that Cubi can feel/feed on any emotion.
Their affinity is only their favorite food. So, Gothic cubi are really downer for everyone, and can be very destructive.
Confusion is Abel's favorite food, you know. Be other people's confusion or his own.
PBH
You mean that being on his own so much places Abel in an emotional feedback loop? Is that canon? I mean, I know it works that way for people, in a manner of speaking, but...
Quote from: Scow2 on March 30, 2010, 05:21:46 PM
What's been ticking me off about Mao's "arguments" is that while he's nominally arguing about why Abel's a coward (a point I may or may not contend), he's also been explicitly and implicitly saying his offensive degree of hatred toward Abel applies to anyone who's had their actions dictated by mental trauma. The part where he started gloating that he believes PTSD/Shell Shock is a form of cowardice undeserving of sympathy was 100% flamebait, and he even bragged about it, and insinuated that other mental disorders are equally bullshit... I think that can be classified as a personal attack against anyone who has experienced, or know someone who's experienced such mental disorders.
Honestly? The only flamebait here is you twisting my words and putting some extra ones in my mouth. Gloating? Boasting? Bragging? Where? You've got issues friend, and it starts with you getting way too worked up over the discussion of a fictional story. Hatred? Show me ONCE where I claimed any hatred. Please do. Only hatred I have right now is that I'm bothering to reply to this assinine post of yours. You want a personal attack? Read up. There's a nice example of one in the quote brackets above. 100% Underserving of Sympathy you say? Sure, to people who use their claims of disability as a crutch and an excuse, you know, like Abel is doing.. oh wait, he's not even doing that because this stuff didn't come up until someone tried to compare me to Patten and I called bullshit. Take your righteous indignation elsewhere. Explicitly and implicitly hating someone? I want quotes. I'm pretty sure I've not used the word hate even once. Show me my insinuation and how I've called them bullshit.
I'll say it again: only flamebait here, is from you and Pvblivs. Grow up. This is a conversation about a character in a fantasy land comic.
I can't even be arsed to respond to the rest of your post. You're not even worth it.
Another TL;DR: If all you can use to defend your arguments is putting words in my mouth and twisting what I have to say, then you aren't worth the trouble either.
Man, you guys are more talkative than even me! =^-^=
There's one thing to consider here: Abel was avoiding going to see his mother not because he was afraid Aniz would kill her... but because he was afraid she'd reject him.
The last thing he'd seen before being 'ported to SAIA was his mother turning away. No doubt he was deathly afraid that she would reject him if he visited. She's blame him. And wasn't he to blame? If he'd not been born, then none of that would have happened. In theory. Of course, if May had been infertile (or Aniz for that matter), Aniz would have left her. Either deliberately and outwardly to break her heart... or vanishing one day and making it look like he'd been killed on an adventure. Either way... misery would be the result, and Aniz would get one last feast from May before vanishing.
He never wrote. He never tried to "call" via spell or anything. He never asked Fa'Lina if his mother could visit him... even if she could stay at SAIA and be safe. Why? Because he was afraid that she would reject him.
I've encountered instances when a parent has rejected me (heated words that came exceedingly close to me cutting off all ties with my family forever; if it weren't for my grandparents, who I didn't want caught in the middle, I would have). It is like having a blade twisted around inside your chest. I can easily see Abel avoiding that possibility in order to have at least a few happy memories of his mom, without knowing if she did in fact hate him.
So. Is he a coward? You could probably see him as being one. Fortunately... I get the feeling he's done a bit of growing since then. The Abel we met in SAIA when Dan first arrived there is not the Abel we see now. He's grown a hide that keeps him safe from the barbs of others (so long as his father is not mentioned). And yet he's still compassionate enough to help someone out who's in a bind... be it Dan, Jyrras, or even Alexsi.
Fighting has gotten out of hand enough that it's been brought to MY attention. Cut it out, or you lose access to this forum for a month. You damn well better believe I can demote your access on an individual basis.
i find the whole thing amusing simply because we have a whole bunch of people trying to do one thing...
Give a Psychological Evaluation to a Fictional Character. :U
Quote from: Turnsky on March 31, 2010, 06:01:45 AM
Give a Psychological Evaluation to a Fictional Character. :U
You never did it in school?
It's an interesting exercise. Unfortunately, problems arise because, in order for a fictional character to be compelling, they must have problems and responses that are to some extent analogous to those of a real person, making it difficult to express an opinion on the character without also expressing an opinion on a swath of real people as well. That said, there's more than one way of saying something.
For example, if I were to say that such-and-such a character's blue hair makes them look like a git, I would be indirectly insulting a good friend of mine, who is in the habit of dying his hair blue. On the other hand, if I said that, on that particular character, the blue hair really doesn't work for me, I would greatly reduce the extent of any offense caused, because I am specifying firstly that I am referring only to this particular instance of blue hair and secondly that it is only with regards to my personal taste that it isn't working.
Quote from: Congo Jack on March 31, 2010, 06:28:36 AM
You never did it in school?
I always refused, because I felt that Shakespeare had a tendency to bend his characters to fit the plot. I was a difficult little twerp.
Wow, I totally should have read this thread in order instead of skipping to the last page and reading backwards. It makes the various comments and quotes seem a little disjointed.
Although... I can't help but think it would be quite fun arguing with Mao, albeit in a more lighthearted and jocular tone. (I'm sure I'd be out-classed anyways. His lexicon seems a bit more robust than my own.)
Quote from: Congo Jack on March 31, 2010, 06:28:36 AM
Quote from: Turnsky on March 31, 2010, 06:01:45 AM
Give a Psychological Evaluation to a Fictional Character. :U
You never did it in school?
not really, i used to peer at the psychological profiles of people that were in my mother's books, though..
folks like Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Boston Strangler, etc, etc..
Quote from: Scarydragon on March 31, 2010, 06:47:48 AM
Although... I can't help but think it would be quite fun arguing with Mao, albeit in a more lighthearted and jocular tone. (I'm sure I'd be out-classed anyways. His lexicon seems a bit more robust than my own.)
I wouldn't go that far. :P
I'm not exactly what one would call eloquent and I wouldn't be able to stand in front of a debate team. I'm smart enough to form my own opinions and that's about all I'll claim (despite what a few folks would like to say about me). That said: I'm always more than happy to discuss things, particularly in a lighthearted and jocular manner.
I believe that there is another line from Shakespeare's Macbeth that applies to many of these posts: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". Lots of good sound bites from that playwright.
William Tecumseh Sherman also had a lot of good statements for those who seem to bask in the glory of war and combat. (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman)
"I think this confusion leads intellectuals and artists themselves to believe that the elite arts and humanities are a kind of higher, exalted form of human endeavor." -Steven Pinker
"Intellectuals are people who believe that ideas are of more importance than values. That is to say, their own ideas and other people's values." -Gerald Brenan
"Soccer riots kill at most tens. Intellectuals' ideological riots sometimes kill millions."
-John McCarthy
Some of society's most valuable and cherished folks have had something to say about those who sit back and do nothing but talk.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 31, 2010, 07:18:57 AM
I'm not exactly what one would call eloquent and I wouldn't be able to stand in front of a debate team. I'm smart enough to form my own opinions and that's about all I'll claim (despite what a few folks would like to say about me).
Still, sadly, that's more than I can say of most people I know. Most conversations I have of late boil down to "I don't agree with the things that you are saying." "That's because you are a butt." (Though, sometimes that second part is me. :P )
Quote from: Scarydragon on March 31, 2010, 07:49:11 AM
Still, sadly, that's more than I can say of most people I know. Most conversations I have of late boil down to "I don't agree with the things that you are saying." "That's because you are a butt." (Though, sometimes that second part is me. :P )
Haha, we all do it, and frankly: I don't think it's any less valid. Sad they can't express it in detail but then, not everyone's greatest strength is their words or thoughts. It sure as heck isn't mine.
Given folks interpretation of me, you might say I'm the
(http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/halolz-dot-com-godofwar-disgaea-doodofwar.jpg) (http://www.halolz.com/2010/01/02/dood-of-war/)
Quote from: Naldru on March 31, 2010, 07:27:01 AM
William Tecumseh Sherman also had a lot of good statements for those who seem to bask in the glory of war and combat.
And yet he implemented and pretty much perfected the art of total war; meaning civilian populations are fair game in war. The General may have lamented the idea of glory in war, but that didn't stop him from executing the horrors of war upon every man, woman, and child opposing him. The quotes give a glimpse of the man, but do not tell his whole story. And being selective in what quotes are given can taint the individual to hero or villain as the person quoting him sees fit. If I may, I would suggest seeking other sources about his life and view on war and its execution. A good place to start is by reading his own words, "Memoirs of General William T. Sherman" by the General, himself; ISBN 0-306-80213-9. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Hizzel read the General's works.
"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."- Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army
When it came to handling people suffering from "shell shock", "combat fatigue", or whatever you call it, we learned that the best
immediate treatment was to pull the person form the line , get 'em cleaned up, fed, and rested, then put them BACK in the line as soon as possible! Within 72 hours was the recommended max time out of the line. Many reasons for that, but in short; return to friends who were 'abandon'; return to people with common experience; negate the 'cowardice' tag self-imposed as well as from others. In other words, get back on the horse before the fear of the horse got too strong.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PSTD) was not a concern at this time. That becomes an issue after the person leaves the combat zone and is away from those who had the shared experience and formed a natural support group. It is a real problem and has to be addressed the second the combat Vet steps off the Freedom Bird stateside.
One last note on this off-topic post: in all my experiences, I never,
never, witnessed anyone suffer "shell shock" from being exposed to a single horrific event, even the grotesque mangling death of a friend. Momentary paralysis from shock/horror/grief/etc. sure, but it was always a momentary thing. It was always the accumulation of days of combat induced stress when bad diet, lack of sleep, and the constant visage of the horrors of war added up to push a very few into just "tuning out" and ceasing to function.
Which all leads me to wonder why Fa'Lina didn't do more to push Abel out of his shell and face his horrors, whatever they are. Perhaps it is due to her 'hands off' policy of allowing individuals to make their own decisions. Perhaps for Cubi the 72 hours is measured in decades, if not centuries. I don't know. I may never know. And I always feel extremely reluctant to try and guess Ms. Williams motives and reasons for the actions of HER characters. I really do prefer to sit back and watch her masterful story unfold as she sees fit. Believe me, I am enjoying the ride.
And this is one of the few threads in The Lost Lake Inn that I ended up following closely. Thanks to all for the entertainment?
-Bradypodidae
a.k.a. Gunny Armstrong, USMCedit: My mentioning I am a Marine was in no way meant to brag, intimidate, or impress anyone, it was simply meant to explain why I used "in all my experiences" in the main post. Nothing more. No one has called me out on this, yet, so this is a preemptive strike in hopes of not raising anyone's ire.
humbly yours,
Bradypodidae
Ah Brady, we discussed this: I had really hoped you wouldn't step into this mess. Try not to get any of it on your boots. They're really nicely polished.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 31, 2010, 10:11:58 AM
Ah Brady, we discussed this: I had really hoped you wouldn't step into this mess. Try not to get any of it on your boots. They're really nicely polished.
I know, but for some bizarre reason this was eating at me and I figured I better get it out while I was still at least partially on an even keel.
As an aside.. for some reason as I read your first paragraph, particularly the line about quoting to suit one's purposes, I could only think of the speech given by the Soldier in the TF2 "Meet the Soldier" video:
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that nobody could best him in the ring of honor. Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. And then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo!
...
UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 31, 2010, 10:43:15 AM
"UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"
there is certainly a lot of Fowl play afoot, that's for sure. >:3
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 06:33:38 AM
That's pretty flimsy. As for fooling them? They weren't really looking for him now were they? I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz: Fa'lina.
I highly doubt that those Wards would have been as effective as you seem to think. Fa'Lina is a tri-wing cubi and thus insanely powerful. She could likely have broken those wards with little effort had she tried.
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 31, 2010, 10:59:46 AM
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 06:33:38 AM
That's pretty flimsy. As for fooling them? They weren't really looking for him now were they? I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz: Fa'lina.
I highly doubt that those Wards would have been as effective as you seem to think. Fa'Lina is a tri-wing cubi and thus insanely powerful. She could likely have broken those wards with little effort had she tried.
Yeah, that's been mentioned and I've already conceded that it's very possible. Do keep up. :P
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 31, 2010, 11:06:23 AM
Quote from: Lego3400 on March 31, 2010, 10:59:46 AM
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 30, 2010, 06:33:38 AM
That's pretty flimsy. As for fooling them? They weren't really looking for him now were they? I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz: Fa'lina.
I highly doubt that those Wards would have been as effective as you seem to think. Fa'Lina is a tri-wing cubi and thus insanely powerful. She could likely have broken those wards with little effort had she tried.
Yeah, that's been mentioned and I've already conceded that it's very possible. Do keep up. :P
I'm aware. I finished reading the thread after I posted. I would have deleted my post but there's no option to do so. <.<
It's cool, this thread is a monster of a read. XD
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 31, 2010, 10:43:15 AM
As an aside.. for some reason as I read your first paragraph, particularly the line about quoting to suit one's purposes, I could only think of the speech given by the Soldier in the TF2 "Meet the Soldier" video:
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that nobody could best him in the ring of honor. Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. And then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo!
...
UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"
What Sun Tzu actually said appears to be "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding." I interpret that to mean that you should not blindly follow stupid orders.
Other quotes:
There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.
The enlightened ruler is heedful, and the good general full of caution.
The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/sun_tzu_2.html)
To proeliator bradypodidae:
I wasn't thinking of Sherman as a role model. However, I think that it is also safe to say that he didn't see any alternative to total war. If limiting damage to civilians and their property meant risking the lives of his own soldiers and the interests of his nation, he felt that fighting any other way would simply result in a worse situation for both sides.
There are too many people out there who seem to base their idea of political and military doctrine on games like Team Fortress II and John Wayne movies.
All that said, I would agree with your post in all respects. I have not had any military experience as there are bats with better eyesight and I have a few other medical problems. On the other hand, my son will be going to Afghanistan in a few months, and I cringe every time I hear people who state what the military should and should not do based on some mythical image that they have obtained from movies and books.
Quote from: Naldru on March 31, 2010, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: Mao Laoren on March 31, 2010, 10:43:15 AM
As an aside.. for some reason as I read your first paragraph, particularly the line about quoting to suit one's purposes, I could only think of the speech given by the Soldier in the TF2 "Meet the Soldier" video:
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that nobody could best him in the ring of honor. Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. And then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo!
...
UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"
What Sun Tzu actually said appears to be "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding." I interpret that to mean that you should not blindly follow stupid orders.
You've missed the point of why I quoted that.... entirely. I was pointing out that the soldier was twisting a quote for his own sake.
Edit again: And because it's damn funny.Quote
Other quotes:
There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.
The enlightened ruler is heedful, and the good general full of caution.
The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/sun_tzu_2.html)
To proeliator bradypodidae:
I wasn't thinking of Sherman as a role model. However, I think that it is also safe to say that he didn't see any alternative to total war. If limiting damage to civilians and their property meant risking the lives of his own soldiers and the interests of his nation, he felt that fighting any other way would simply result in a worse situation for both sides.
There are too many people out there who seem to base their idea of political and military doctrine on games like Team Fortress II and John Wayne movies.
All that said, I would agree with your post in all respects. I have not had any military experience as there are bats with better eyesight and I have a few other medical problems. On the other hand, my son will be going to Afghanistan in a few months, and I cringe every time I hear people who state what the military should and should not do based on some mythical image that they have obtained from movies and books.
I think it's funny how, if they disagree with your view then their only knowledge or experience is 'based on some mythical image that they have obtained from movies and books' or ' games like Team Fortress II and John Wayne movies.'
Edit: Urk! Corrected my mistake.
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AMThe interpretation of Aaryanna in the comic is not necessarily the interpretation done by the actual original owner.
This brings up an interesting question.
How many of the current characters around are not of Ambers creation ?
I don't mean the one panel cameo's, but fully fledged characters ?
Just out of curiosity. :)
Ok from memory... So take this with a pixie stick..
Real people inspired Characters
DAN
Mab- was Amber herself
Alexsi
Wildy
Aary
Azlan
Merlitz
Ink
I can't think of anyone else without the site.
PBH
Merlitz also was taken from Furcadia and he was quite the cool cat back in the day.
Dang, even Wildy ?
Didn't know that.
Dr Ink is not really a regular cast member.but he has a RL person behind him.. and all the other have real life counter-parts.
PBH
Quote from: Anker Steadfast on March 31, 2010, 07:39:04 PM
Quote from: Amber Williams on March 29, 2010, 02:48:13 AMThe interpretation of Aaryanna in the comic is not necessarily the interpretation done by the actual original owner.
This brings up an interesting question.
How many of the current characters around are not of Ambers creation ?
I don't mean the one panel cameo's, but fully fledged characters ?
Just out of curiosity. :)
Dan, Mab (is Amber's but from Furcadia), Alexsi, Wildy, Merlitz, Jyrras, Pyroduck, Biggs, Aliyka, Azlan, and Aaryanna did NOT originate in DMFA.
I wrote it down for just such an emergency.
Really
Biggs and Jyrras are not Amber's creations, :erk
Now,
Pyroduck could be someone's character. i don't know
and Aliyka has good possibility being taken from Furcadia. I never met the girl.
Please Note: By now, these characters are more Amber's vision of these characters. and they have evolved beyond what their original creators' ideas for them.
PBH
Quote from: Baal Hadad on March 31, 2010, 08:35:04 PM
Dan, Mab (is Amber's but from Furcadia), Alexsi, Wildy, Merlitz, Jyrras, Pyroduck, Biggs, Aliyka, Azlan, and Aaryanna did NOT originate in DMFA.
I'm thinking you misread that there Hunnydew.
Mao, my opinion of you jumped up several points due to a post several pages back where you talked about "everything in moderation." Finding balance and all that.
I completely agree, and most of my RPG characters reflect that. I also agree with you that Abel completely chickened out in the worst way, but we knew something like that had to happen to make him who he is in the main comic.
P.S. I knew lots of the characters are derived from other people's creations, but what I'd rather know is how many of those people are still around to view Amber's use of them. I'd guess none since I never see any posts in regard to that sort of thing.
Quote from: Shachza on April 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
P.S. I knew lots of the characters are derived from other people's creations, but what I'd rather know is how many of those people are still around to view Amber's use of them. I'd guess none since I never see any posts in regard to that sort of thing.
Wildy's last post
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,6958.msg319183.html#msg319183
Wildy is still around....
Amber still in touch Aaryannna and Merlitz, I think
RL Alexsi died young Unfortunately
Ink came around from time to time to the old forum.
PBH
Quote from: Tangent on March 29, 2010, 07:32:10 PM
Second: Abel is far better than Shinji. Abel will help people spontaneously. He actually acts proactively. He may want to lurk in his room and hide from the world outside of SAIA, but he still does go out and do things and help people. Shinji? When he saw the one person who has stood up for him and cared for him for much of the series crying her eyes out, he shuts the fething door and hides. He is a passive unassertive lazy little child who whines about everything and acts only when forced. Abel is a far better person than Shinji.
I really don`t like to defend Shinji but given the fact that Shinji was emotionally abuse by father only to be use as tool to fight monster I think Shinji has lot legit reason to whine. Yet he willing to climb in that mecha and fight against Angels many times even after he hurt a friend. All the people that care about him, only wanted to him keep fighting and people are surprise he turn out like that in the End. No one gave Shinji the chance to walk away like the way Abel was given the choice. Abel may have help others, but 1. that centuries later and act like know-it-all jerk about, and did nothing to help his own mother. 2. When did Abel put his life on line like Shinji?
Quote from: Shachza on April 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
Mao, my opinion of you jumped up several points due to a post several pages back where you talked about "everything in moderation." Finding balance and all that.
I'd be careful admitting that in public. Word is: I'm a hateful troll.
Quote from: Shachza on April 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
I completely agree, and most of my RPG characters reflect that. I also agree with you that Abel completely chickened out in the worst way, but we knew something like that had to happen to make him who he is in the main comic.
Indeed. It's a shame that even after all that time to recover, he's still pretty much a chicken.
Quote from: Shachza on April 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
P.S. I knew lots of the characters are derived from other people's creations, but what I'd rather know is how many of those people are still around to view Amber's use of them. I'd guess none since I never see any posts in regard to that sort of thing.
As was pointed out, they're still around. Dr.Ink goes by Magic these days but he's been about. Wildy is seen once in a while. Janus as well. Azlan is still around in the RP section of the forum iirc. As for the others? I've not seen them, but they're probably still around in some fashion or another.
Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 01, 2010, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Shachza on April 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
P.S. I knew lots of the characters are derived from other people's creations, but what I'd rather know is how many of those people are still around to view Amber's use of them. I'd guess none since I never see any posts in regard to that sort of thing.
As was pointed out, they're still around. Dr.Ink goes by Magic these days but he's been about. Wildy is seen once in a while. Janus as well. Azlan is still around in the RP section of the forum iirc. As for the others? I've not seen them, but they're probably still around in some fashion or another.
On a minor side-note, I was actually mistaken for the original Jyrras over on FA. I thought Amber or someone else might get a kick out of that.
OK Mao, you know what? I'm tired of you ripping on Abel for his "Cowardice"
If you were the smart person that you think yourself to be, you would then know that from this strip here,
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_080.php
Abel has learned his lesson about his inactions.
Yes, he was a coward.
Yes, he did turn down any help from others.
And yes, he could have tried to do something to prevent it.
But he didn't, and he's accepting the consequences. This horse is dead, let's stop beating it! :mowignore
Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 02, 2010, 01:10:28 AM
OK Mao, you know what? I'm tired of you ripping on Abel for his "Cowardice"
If you were the smart person that you think yourself to be, you would then know that from this strip here,
Excuse me? The smart person that I think I am? I'd like to see where I've ever claimed that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've claimed otherwise. As for me ripping on him, I'm sorry you're getting worked up over me having an opinion about a fictional character, and then defending it.
Nice knee jerk reaction to defend the forum wubby.
Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 02, 2010, 01:10:28 AM
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Ab_080.php
Abel has learned his lesson about his inactions.
Except, go look at the main comic. He's still a jerk who pushes everyone away out of cowardice. Trying to act all tough, but frankly, he's afraid. You see it even in his dreams. Everyone is going on and trying to say that "Ooooh, someone else had to have planted that dream in him!", but I'm sorry, I don't buy that. Looks to me like even he subconsciously knows he's a coward and that after almost 400 years, he's still one.
Quote from: SoWhatIfImFurry on April 02, 2010, 01:10:28 AM
Yes, he was a coward.
Yes, he did turn down any help from others.
And yes, he could have tried to do something to prevent it.
But he didn't, and he's accepting the consequences. This horse is dead, let's stop beating it! :mowignore
Only person beating this dead horse here is you. I've stated my opinion and have EVERY right to it when discussing things with others. So how about instead of coming here and posting full of rage, you actually come back with a sound and civil discussion on the matter? You don't like my opinion? Fine. Show me a counter point rather than your keyboard rage. Show me where in the main comic he shows himself to have actually learned from his lessons. He hasn't. He had to be FORCED out of SAIA. He still hides in a basement and he still pushes everyone away.
And this is the part where I say that perhaps it is time, if people want to continue this discussion, that peeps take it to PM.
The sides have been stated, points have been made. I think we're good here. Move along folks. Don't have to go home but you can't stay here. :U
Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on April 01, 2010, 06:56:26 PM
Quote from: Shachza on April 01, 2010, 06:28:15 PM
P.S. I knew lots of the characters are derived from other people's creations, but what I'd rather know is how many of those people are still around to view Amber's use of them. I'd guess none since I never see any posts in regard to that sort of thing.
Wildy's last post
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,6958.msg319183.html#msg319183
Wildy is still around....
Amber still in touch Aaryannna and Merlitz, I think
RL Alexsi died young Unfortunately
Ink came around from time to time to the old forum.
PBH
I occasionally see Dr. Ink in The Half Moon theater part of these forums.
Pretty cool to hear so many of the old peeps is still along for the ride. :)