The Clockwork Mansion

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Y'know, you should really put these on a webcomic host instead of dumping entire archives worth of comics on the forum.
here's a few that are fairly good.

http://www.comicgenesis.com/
http://www.drunkduck.com/
http://www.smackjeeves.com/
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/
http://www.rampagenetwork.com/
http://xepher.net/
http://www.comicdish.com/

It would spread the wonder and majestic creation to all viewers on the internet, instead of having it be exclusively viewable by the forum.

You'd broaden your audience that way.

I already have them on Smackjeeves... linked with the banner below although for some reason onlinecomics.net has moved the listing to the mature section recently and I  the closest I have to mature content is the word "ass" which crops up every now and then. 

What's your comic name listed as on smack jeeves? I searched for Knock off peeps, but it didn't find anything.

http://nio.smackjeeves.com/comics/

Although grllv.com

and

http://nio.thewebcomic.com

take you to the same location. sadly, people ignore banner and base quality purely on the number of fans or popularity.

What does banners have to do with this?

o_0

Quote from: Drathorin on January 11, 2010, 09:27:33 PM
What does banners have to do with this?

o_0

especially to unupdated things.

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the ego, the super ego and the id. Guess which peep is which and win a cookie.

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I was thinking more of a sarcastic yah sound than a traditional yeah when I used yea without the h' . Atomic girl is a  fictional superhero that was created during the 50's and was used as a showpiece to get people interested in the atomic explosions and bombs that were being tested in the Nevada desert. Jamurai is a local independent comic series about an asasin named jamurai, he was mentioned because I had borrowed the lines under the eyes from that artists style when I made the dog. I knew about krypto looooong before the television show cam out and I thought it would be funny to mention him.   

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"Ace in the hole" and "Losing Focus" projects are already completed, save for editing and color,  and can be found under the  Sniffing Glue banner.

"Nonchalant paranoia" is incomplete, save for writing, and is part of Transient Pulse.

"Squirrel's Nipping on God" and "Diamonds in the Dust Bin" have been outlined since late 2007 and were only named recently.


each voter is allowed one votes, so use them wisely.

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(Transcribed)

Quote
...a little extra money might work as an incentive to dangle a carrot in front of my nose since I've never recieved a dime of financial support and since you've clearly provided me with almost no emotional support I see no reason why I should have an update schedule.

Newsflash: comics are not lucrative. In fact, it's probably the least profitable sector of art.

As for emotional support, I take it you mean comments, feedback, conversation, etc. I haven't let any comments because I don't read your comics.

I can't. I've tried. Repeatedly.

They're not bad: they're just really, really dull. I don't find them interesting in any way, and it's hard to follow what's going on for more then the first two or three pages. I don't like the style of art or writing, and that's pretty much a matter of preference. I don't believe technical skills are required to make a great comic, and I can appreciate goofy and silly comics even if I don't like them, but I haven't found anything to say about these comics.

Honestly, I admire your ability to update. I really do; I think it's downright olympic. Sadly, quantity does not make up for quality.

If you want constructive comments and technical feedback, well, I don't know where to begin. That'd be the biggest wall'o'text I've ever posted.

To put it more bluntly: People support the things they like.  For all your talk of being a great writer or a talented artist or whatever it is you're claiming, you've not really put out anything that anyone has liked.  This can be evidenced by the fact that, for the most part, no one responds to your art.

This isn't just the fault of poor/bland writing or a rather rudimentary artistic approach, but also somewhat of the attitude you've tended to display.  Folks have tried to tell you how they felt about your stuff and even how to improve it, as best as they could, and you flat out ignored them and just kept on doing what you were doing and then, apparently, wondering why they didn't like it or fawn all over it.  You not only didn't listen to them, but you clearly don't understand them or even try to.  In fact, you'd often retreat and try to protect your ego by proclaiming yourself as destined for great things because of your course of study.  This air of assumed superiority is a massive turn off to folks and can even very quickly grow into spite or worse: hate.  I think you know as well as I do that you're viewed in a fairly dim light around these forums.  I would think that rather than whine about it as you did in that last page, that you would do something to improve upon it.

That is, afterall, what these boards are for.  Artistic improvement.  Think on that a bit.

There's not much to say that hasn't been said already.

However, we could all offer honest critiques but since we've been treated with such hostility when folks have even looked like they were so much as slightly disagreeing with you, we've become leery.

Asking for 'donations' to support something only works if there's a not only a fanbase, but is well liked enough to generate such a following, otherwise it's just insulting and egotistical to think you can glean any kind of monetary gain from such an endeavor. However, since you're so keen on a "quantity over quality then get paid" approach, i'd think if it weren't for the lack of grotesque musculature, you would've come from the Rob Leifeld school of art.  You tend to take criticism just as well, however.

I won't even begin to start on the writing, as i'm no real authority on literature other than the fact that yours doesn't impress me whatsoever, but the haphazard layout of the pages, right down to your seeming fear of 90 degree angles for panel borders strikes me as odd to say the least, and detracts from the flow of each page, not to mention that your linework seems rather uneven and messy at times, it just screams that you lack the patience to do each one carefully enough to provide something that could stand alone, even by color.  i'd mention that, but it seems you're happy enough treating a box of copics like crayolas so i'll leave you be.

Which leaves me with one last thing... the fact that you treat an art forum like your own personal comic archive, is it enough that you have it on one site without spreading it around like the bubonic plague? take into consideration each comic weighs in on average, 240k, now multiply it by the number of pages you put up here.. 31 pages? at 240K, 'bout 7440k, 7.44 meg or so.. doesn't seem much in the realms of high speed connects, but spare a thought to those with slow connections.. it's slower than molasses in Siberia.

In short, While you might have some inkling of talent, it's compounded by the fact you seem to have an overwhelmingly high opinion of yourself, and you favor to hide behind the "style" excuse of yore. Which is about as valid a style as the belly-flop is in the Olympic high dive, it's just not gonna earn you points right there.

I may be blunt, even hostile.. But this is how *I* learnt, and truth be told it's a heck of a way to learn, the "trial by fire" it also helps one to develop those two fundamental skills of even surviving as an artist: the ability to learn and grow from the advice of others, and the ability to take criticism with grace and eloquence, no matter how harsh it might be. If it's informative, it's worth taking note.

Mao... Turnsky... you're not helping.

Your comments have been mean spirited, self centred, and unconstructive. In fact, if this is the kind of feedback he usually gets, I wouldn't blame him for getting defencive.

Quote from: Turnsky on April 21, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
I may be blunt, even hostile.. But this is how *I* learnt, and truth be told it's a heck of a way to learn, the "trial by fire" it also helps one to develop those two fundamental skills of even surviving as an artist: the ability to learn and grow from the advice of others, and the ability to take criticism with grace and eloquence, no matter how harsh it might be. If it's informative, it's worth taking note.

Bullshit. Critique differs from criticism in that it is not hostile. It is possible to be polite when commenting.

It is important to have a thick skin when looking for comments... this is because there are over opinionated self important jackasses critics out there who make a lot of useless, spiteful comments.

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 21, 2010, 09:03:01 AM
I think you know as well as I do that you're viewed in a fairly dim light around these forums.

Did you take a survey? You don't speak for me, by the way. Thanks.

Quote from: Mao Laoren on April 21, 2010, 09:03:01 AM
That is, afterall, what these boards are for.  Artistic improvement.  Think on that a bit.

Last I checked, it was a community for discussion.

Quote from: WhiteFox on April 21, 2010, 05:15:15 PM
Mao... Turnsky... you're not helping.

I'd argue that you're not either but that's opinion.

Quote from: WhiteFox on April 21, 2010, 05:15:15 PM
Your comments have been mean spirited, self centred, and unconstructive. In fact, if this is the kind of feedback he usually gets, I wouldn't blame him for getting defencive.

For someone who doesn't really know me, you're awful quick to tell me that I'm being mean spirited.  Self-centered?  How?  I'm not seeing it.  I would honestly like to have you explain this one to me.  Non-constructive? Destructive?  Honestly, I feel that I posted a reality check and I do honestly hope it gives him pause to think and hopefully he takes something out of it.

Quote from: WhiteFox on April 21, 2010, 05:15:15 PM
Did you take a survey? You don't speak for me, by the way. Thanks.

I don't need to take a survey to talk to people or to read the forum, Whitefox.  I never said I spoke for you, nor implied it.  I don't live in a bubble, I have friends.  Friends who strangely enough post here and frequent this place.

Quote from: WhiteFox on April 21, 2010, 05:15:15 PM
Last I checked, it was a community for discussion.

Indeed, so consider that next time you try and tell me, effectively, to not post what I think and feel.  More to the point though, these boards (or this board I guess) is for artistic discussion and improvement.  Note the part where it says:

Quote from: Damaris on January 06, 2007, 12:22:50 AM
Artists:
By posting your work in the Art Forum, you are sharing your work with others. However, you are not doing it for the sole purpose of garnering praise and showing the world how slick your art "moves" are. This for is for sharing AND critisism. They go hand in hand here. If you are not looking to improve your work and just want praise, go get a DA account.

Folks have tried to help and be constructive.  He hasn't really noticed.  I'm pointing out what others have tried to point out, but I'm doing it in a far more poignant manner.

Regardless, your post reads like something posted in haste and anger so I'm not going to hold it against you.  Think whatever you like, Whitefox, but I have an opinion and I will voice it.

I am not an expert or anything but since this guy advised me (and usefully) as well, i will drop my 5  cents.

The graphics is fine. Maybe because i am not an artist or anything, i tend to view graphics as vessel for some content. Of course there are really good looking comics like DMFA and SimulatedComicProducts, Noob Comic,  etc. but others , like XKCD or Perry Bible Fellowship have had less of art and are popular too - the last one even after it ceased to release.

As for other things - i liked some of the jokes , like the one about justice not filling stomachs,
I think a lot of perceived dullness comes from difficulty of following sometimes (i know , i am guilty too, and now i see just what everyone meant when seeing someone else do it)
And i think that if you made the panels rectangular, it would make it easier to read.
Another thing   - perhaps making the individual issues a little shorter - at most 6 panels i think would help to make it more interesting - as such it seems to me there are a lot of filler panels that do not aid the understanding much, or provide comedy.

I hope anyone finds my input useful

WhiteFox, being harsh is kind of the only way to beat down some people when they're tuning out everything else. It's not nice, yeah, but if GT had showed the slightest inclination to improve and had actually listened to people in the past, then people would have been a lot nicer. I've received some very patient feedback from Mao and Turnsky, so I know this isn't the sort of thing they give everybody just 'cause.

So honestly I'm impressed that you were so patient with him in your initial comment. I would've went soaring off the handle like a happy blue jay. But from the looks of his comments on his Sniffing Glue website and from what he's said in the past, I don't think GT deserves your feedback, which has always been helpful for me at least, or Mao and Turnsky's criticism.

I think they were right about everything.

I'm gonna try and hold my temper all things considered, if i do come off as "openly hostile" right now, it's because i have something else that's pissing me off, so my ire is relatively increased, just be warned.

Quote from: WhiteFox on April 21, 2010, 05:15:15 PM
Mao... Turnsky... you're not helping.

Your comments have been mean spirited, self centred, and unconstructive. In fact, if this is the kind of feedback he usually gets, I wouldn't blame him for getting defencive.

The trouble is that he's gone for the "Offensive-defensive" in the past even when folks have been polite with him. And sometimes to get through to some people, you have to be somewhat heavy-handed, and go for the big mallet.

Quote

Quote from: Turnsky on April 21, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
I may be blunt, even hostile.. But this is how *I* learnt, and truth be told it's a heck of a way to learn, the "trial by fire" it also helps one to develop those two fundamental skills of even surviving as an artist: the ability to learn and grow from the advice of others, and the ability to take criticism with grace and eloquence, no matter how harsh it might be. If it's informative, it's worth taking note.

Bullshit. Critique differs from criticism in that it is not hostile. It is possible to be polite when commenting.

It is important to have a thick skin when looking for comments... this is because there are over opinionated self important jackasses critics out there who make a lot of useless, spiteful comments.

Didn't i say i might be Blunt and/or hostile? again, sometimes it pays to smack the unresponsive with something large enough to get it through their skulls and perhaps their ego, -especially- those who hide behind their excuses in terms of "it's my style" or the like because they refuse to admit that perhaps they do need improvement and move forward in such a direction... "Mookie" of Dominic Deegan is notorious for this behavior, for the record, and has only recently shuffled forward after years of criticism, both good, bad, & harsh..

Look, critique to me is more about the actual CONTENT of the criticism rather than the actual inflection.. Let me tell you a story, i had a mentor, an artist, a damn fine one at that, whom pretty much said back in the day that i needed work in a fairly blunt and semi abrasive manner.. you'd be up in arms about it, saying "oh no that's being too harsh, that's not criticism!"... She then proceeded to give me redlines of my work and tell me how i could be better at what i do.

All i'm saying is: "Your art sucks" is not helpful criticism, but "Your art sucks, and here's where it does suck" can be helpful, if rather blunt.
it's still criticism, and helpful if there's something to be gained from it, moreso if it actively gets the attention of the person it's directed at.

And truth be told, posting anything that's remotely artistic on the internet is like flying over Berlin during WW2, you'd best prepare yourself for flak.

You might be used to the 'silk glove' approach, but there's things i could say right now, that'd make me just an asshole to some folks, a champion to others, even yourself.

Keaton; I don't know Gabriel. Not very well. Turnsky told me a thing or two about him, but frankly, I went into this thread keeping in mind that I wanted to form my own opinions about him from personal experience. If anything, I wasn't sure if GT didn't take comments well, or if Turnsky was bad at making them. I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt, here.

As for the so called "beat down" that some people need, I don't believe it. The thing is... It's like...

That's it. I need to finish a tutorial I've been trying to write for the past three months. I didn't come here to start a flame war.

[edit] Keats, that last line is more directed to anything I can say in reply to Turnsky or Mao, not to you. For the most part, I just don't believe that comments have to be hostile.

Whitefox: Newsflash: comics are not lucrative. In fact, it's probably the least profitable sector of art.

GL: There are three measures of success. There's money, emotional fulfillment, and satisfaction of completing a task.... I believe in self-determinism (one chooses their own destiny), and the sublime(the idea that there is something greater than yourself) as opposed to beauty(appealing to the vanity of others or oneself ).  My characters are fully autonomous and choose their own path. I've learned and picked up on narrative patterns that I generally try to avoid so as to keep the story unpredictable and different. In that sense the stories are a bit like 24, Battlestar Galactica, and Caprica. However, unlike those shows , the comic has no pattern, I tried to create a beginning, a middle, an end, and alternate endings and interpretations of events so that people could construct their own interpretation of event.  I included bonus materials, extras,  and general OMAKE crap that occurs after I've finished a chapter.  

WF: As for emotional support, I take it you mean comments, feedback, conversation, etc. I haven't let any comments because I don't read your comics.

GL: Coments and discussion are good, because they let you know you are making art. And show that people recognize you are making art.

WF: I can't. I've tried. Repeatedly.

GL: that's because It's contemporary art and it's supposed to be so uniquely  innovative, and original, that it repulses you at the same time. In a couple years it will be many of the ideas will have become so commonplace that the comic will actually become better with age.


WF: They're not bad: they're just really, really dull. I don't find them interesting in any way, and it's hard to follow what's going on for more then the first two or three pages. I don't like the style of art or writing, and that's pretty much a matter of preference. I don't believe technical skills are required to make a great comic, and I can appreciate goofy and silly comics even if I don't like them, but I haven't found anything to say about these comics.


GL: I usually try to have at least one pun on every page and set up a joke every three pages to maintain interest. As a long form comic it works great if you update 3 to 5 pages at a time , however if people don't like puns or  looking at the page for the first time it gets pretty lame. I also was attempting to create a sense of drama and suspense.  The comic works better in print... but only the later ones the early ones have big ideas but the panel arrangement and story structure and editing make me cringe.
   

WF: Honestly, I admire your ability to update. I really do; I think it's downright olympic. Sadly, quantity does not make up for quality.

GL: Thank You? Personally  I think The color issues are exceptional if you can get past the first one. Nonchalant paranoia is still pretty horribly unedited  and incomplete.  

WF: If you want constructive comments and technical feedback, well, I don't know where to begin. That'd be the biggest wall'o'text I've ever posted.

GL: I'd be satisfied if someone told me what characters they liked the most and which ones they hated the most, so that I could focus almost exclusively on stories with them and ignore the rest of the characters as nothing more than occasional cameo's.  
   

Mao Laoren

To put it more bluntly: People support the things they like.  For all your talk of being a great writer or a talented artist or whatever it is you're claiming, you've not really put out anything that anyone has liked.  This can be evidenced by the fact that, for the most part, no one responds to your art.

GL: OMG!!! You think I'm a talented artist and writer. Page views would indicate that there are at least 17 readers 3 of which I'm guessing are Mods. In all seriousness I have never claimed to be a talented artist or writer so  I thank you for the backhanded compliment or whatever you were trying to imply.

The closest I've ever came to claiming I was talented at anything was when "Turnskey" referred to me as some moron, because he didn't like my review that Transformers: ROTFL. My opinion was that the movie sucked because of poor sound design, editing, and writing, or handling,  and I gave examples why it disliked it from the simplistic narrative, to the annoying characters. In fact the only thing I liked about ROTFL was the action scenes which I had become desensitized to by the end of the movie.  In his response, Turnsky misinterpreted my review as saying I could write a better movie, and told me I was fanboy wannabe, Michal bay was the Sh17!, and the closest I'd get to making a movie was as a Janitor.    I retaliated by supporting the idea that anyone can do whatever the hell they want whether or not they had money or talent, regardless of class or social standing... personally, I still believe this.
Eventually, I implied that in 30 years or so there would be a movie celebrating Ewe Boll in much the same way Tim Burton celebrated Ed Wood. And I followed this up by stating that I could very easily become the next Jim Henson or Walt Disney. This is still very true given the average human lifespan, my skill set, and my relative location in the United States the chances of me becoming a celebrity are 1 in 20 and that number would jump to 1 in 15 if I moved to Los Angeles. Of course once I turn 30 the odds drop, but I think that's because people usually give up by that point.  

ML: This isn't just the fault of poor/bland writing or a rather rudimentary artistic approach, but also somewhat of the attitude you've tended to display.  Folks have tried to tell you how they felt about your stuff and even how to improve it, as best as they could, and you flat out ignored them and just kept on doing what you were doing and then, apparently, wondering why they didn't like it or fawn all over it.

GL: No, I've pretty much been ignored entirely. Spelling and color were the only complaints prior to 2007 and I've been fixing that. The story and structure are sound and there have been background artifacts have been part of the images since 2004.

ML:  You not only didn't listen to them, but you clearly don't understand them or even try to.  In fact, you'd often retreat and try to protect your ego by proclaiming yourself as destined for great things because of your course of study.This air of assumed superiority is a massive turn off to folks and can even very quickly grow into spite or worse: hate.  I think you know as well as I do that you're viewed in a fairly dim light around these forums.  I would think that rather than whine about it as you did in that last page, that you would do something to improve upon it.

GL: I've never said I was destined for anything great. However, since I believe in taking responsibility for my own destiny. And it is clear that that the God who rules this universe has blessed me in some way that makes people think that I am destined for something more than what I think I'm capable of at this time,   I would think this aire of superiority is the same as the critic (popcorn comics ) who flaunted  HER education as making HER a superior judge of quality than I. Because when I argued her incompetence, I did it by on the same intellectual level.  As was my right, to do so, just as it was my decision Bann her for commenting directly into my comic after giving me the scathing review to gloat about how superior she was. Just as it was my right to eliminate the comics that I made before I was 21 since it was clear she hadn't read anything but the filler, profiles, and one chapter. I suppose I should have treated the critic like a child, since I clearly have an unfair advantage of being a man and all.// I realize someone hurt her but there is no way I'm going to let someone get way with calling me Lazy.    

ML: That is, afterall, what these boards are for.  Artistic improvement.  Think on that a bit.

GL: and no one said ANYTHING __ EVER__.  I' m always thrilled with comments and I would PM a response to let them know I had read their response because I was stupid that way. Of course, by not using the quote system tunskey is going to insinuated MAO 's Dialog or White Fox's Dialog as my own

Turnsky
However, we could all offer honest critiques but since we've been treated with such hostility when folks have even looked like they were so much as slightly disagreeing with you, we've become leery.

GL: I'm not being hostile. I'm responding to political arguments that have been stirred up because I said that I wanted some form of acknowledgement or financial support. This argument at least supports that what I've created  is in fact art and validates me as an artist.  

TK: Asking for 'donations' to support something only works if there's a not only a fanbase, but is well liked enough to generate such a following, otherwise it's just insulting and egotistical to think you can glean any kind of monetary gain from such an endeavor. However, since you're so keen on a "quantity over quality then get paid" approach, i'd think if it weren't for the lack of grotesque musculature, you would've come from the Rob Leifeld school of art.  You tend to take criticism just as well, however.

GL: Yes, readers will often find overly muscle-bound men in my comics, and women treated as nothing more than sex objects. If you must know, the body design was inspired by the  Batman Beyond and JTHM  which was itself inspired by underground art  of the 90's

TK: I won't even begin to start on the writing, as i'm no real authority on literature other than the fact that yours doesn't impress me whatsoever, but the haphazard layout of the pages, right down to your seeming fear of 90 degree angles for panel borders strikes me as odd to say the least, and detracts from the flow of each page, not to mention that your linework seems rather uneven and messy at times, it just screams that you lack the patience to do each one carefully enough to provide something that could stand alone, even by color.  i'd mention that, but it seems you're happy enough treating a box of copics like crayolas so i'll leave you be.

GL: the color actually has method to the madness I reuse the same 25+ colors. Other things, such as someone on a bender or hallucinating having uneven features, well honestly I Had to do something that indicated they were drunk. As for the paneling, Why does it have to be the same set every time?  I'll print up one of the ones I like every now and again, but for the most part the panels are as unique as the page itself.

TK: Which leaves me with one last thing... the fact that you treat an art forum like your own personal comic archive, is it enough that you have it on one site without spreading it around like the bubonic plague? take into consideration each comic weighs in on average, 240k, now multiply it by the number of pages you put up here.. 31 pages? at 240K, 'bout 7440k, 7.44 meg or so.. doesn't seem much in the realms of high speed connects, but spare a thought to those with slow connections.. it's slower than molasses in Siberia.

GL: I already have my own personal archives, and the pages are not actually stored in the forum here, they're on photobucket. Plus, my comics are approx 500K each because I like quality  as much as the next person.  

TK: In short, While you might have some inkling of talent, it's compounded by the fact you seem to have an overwhelmingly high opinion of yourself, and you favor to hide behind the "style" excuse of yore. Which is about as valid a style as the belly-flop is in the Olympic high dive, it's just not gonna earn you points right there.

GL: Sweet I have inking talent... (just kidding. Seriously I have just as much talent as you do.)

TK: I may be blunt, even hostile.. But this is how *I* learnt, and truth be told it's a heck of a way to learn, the "trial by fire" it also helps one to develop those two fundamental skills of even surviving as an artist: the ability to learn and grow from the advice of others, and the ability to take criticism with grace and eloquence, no matter how harsh it might be. If it's informative, it's worth taking note.

GL: You're being hostile? Honestly the only way to take criticism with grace is to either ignore it or destroy it. If there is a third option, I am not yet aware of it. However conforming to another person's ideas of right and wrong doesn't make you much of an individual.

WHitefox

Mao... Turnsky... you're not helping.

Your comments have been mean spirited, self centred, and unconstructive. In fact, if this is the kind of feedback he usually gets, I wouldn't blame him for getting defensive.

GL: he's right

WF: Bullshit. Critique differs from criticism in that it is not hostile. It is possible to be polite when commenting.

GL: Right again.
The only time I've been openly hostile about how crappy any comic, other than my own,  was when I read a comic created by four to eight people, and even then I withheld my judgment until I had read the first story arch, eight chapters, with eight  writers, and  one story, told with bitmap art. I honestly believe if a group eight people cannot write, draw, or color a story that makes any sense that it should be disbanded into groups or individuals that can get the job done.   The same holds true for movies, if 127 people cannot tell an interesting story, then they need to break up the project and work on something else as a backup.  

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
GL: I'd be satisfied if someone told me what characters they liked the most and which ones they hated the most, so that I could focus almost exclusively on stories with them and ignore the rest of the characters as nothing more than occasional cameo's.

This would be the crux of the matter. I don't care about any of them. I don't identify with any of them, and I'm not emotionally invested with any of them.

I don't know how to advise you on that matter... it's a pretty ephemeral element, and I'm not all that versed on the subject.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
TK: I may be blunt, even hostile.. But this is how *I* learnt, and truth be told it's a heck of a way to learn, the "trial by fire" it also helps one to develop those two fundamental skills of even surviving as an artist: the ability to learn and grow from the advice of others, and the ability to take criticism with grace and eloquence, no matter how harsh it might be. If it's informative, it's worth taking note.

GL: You're being hostile? Honestly the only way to take criticism with grace is to either ignore it or destroy it. If there is a third option, I am not yet aware of it. However conforming to another person's ideas of right and wrong doesn't make you much of an individual

Masters of various trades and subjects, as well as multi-millionaires, will tell you a completely different story. For saying you have the potential to be the next Walt Disney, you really don't seem to know any of his background, or how he got to be where he is, on a learning or mental level.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
GL: that's because It's contemporary art and it's supposed to be so uniquely  innovative, and original, that it repulses you at the same time. In a couple years it will be many of the ideas will have become so commonplace that the comic will actually become better with age.

Well dairy ages into delicious delicious cheese, mold just. . . continues to be a pile of mold. Sometimes, some things just don't change.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
The closest I've ever came to claiming I was talented at anything was when "Turnsky" referred to me as some moron.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
ML: This isn't just the fault of poor/bland writing or a rather rudimentary artistic approach, but also somewhat of the attitude you've tended to display.  Folks have tried to tell you how they felt about your stuff and even how to improve it, as best as they could, and you flat out ignored them and just kept on doing what you were doing and then, apparently, wondering why they didn't like it or fawn all over it.

GL: No, I've pretty much been ignored entirely. Spelling and color were the only complaints prior to 2007 and I've been fixing that. The story and structure are sound and there have been background artifacts have been part of the images since 2004.

Ooooo, artifacts, I thought those things in the background was just pixelation, are they actual objects? I couldn't really tell. As far as story and structure, to be honest Gabriel. I never really thought it had so much of a story as a compilation of random short skits piled together in a non coherent style of drunken humor.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
GL: and no one said ANYTHING __ EVER__.  I' m always thrilled with comments and I would PM a response to let them know I had read their response because I was stupid that way. Of course, by not using the quote system tunskey is going to insinuated MAO 's Dialog or White Fox's Dialog as my own

So the times I've commented on your various strip/art threads and apparently I'm considered a nobody. Is this because I'm not a dedicated artist? Or because I don't have a 'comic' of my own to make my opinion worth being heard?

Also I like how you say turnsky is going to abuse the quote system, when you don't even use the dumb thing.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
GL: I already have my own personal archives, and the pages are not actually stored in the forum here, they're on photobucket. Plus, my comics are approx 500K each because I like quality  as much as the next person. 

So is Amber's comic a terrible because her comic's filesizes are only about 120 k/b?
Wow, I had no idea amber's comic is so so terrible quality. I'll have to let her know ASAP. So she can learn from the pros.

*sigh* Gabriel, Gabriel, Gabriel.. i do so find it "interesting" on how you go out of your way to seemingly contradict yourself.
I'm gonna abuse the heck out of the quote system for this, just so it's easier to read for folks so they know what i'm saying, and what was said by others, and so it doesn't look like an impenetrable wall of text.

QuoteI've never said I was destined for anything great

really? but didn't you already say:

QuoteAnd I followed this up by stating that I could very easily become the next Jim Henson or Walt Disney.

and

QuoteAnd it is clear that that the God who rules this universe has blessed me in some way that makes people think that I am destined for something more than what I think I'm capable of at this time

as for this:

Quoteand the closest I'd get to making a movie was as a Janitor.    I retaliated by supporting the idea that anyone can do whatever the hell they want whether or not they had money or talent, regardless of class or social standing... personally, I still believe this.

in my opinion, you were pretty much stating that you'd get in at top rung, i'm sorry to say that in most cases you'd normally start out at the bottom, and work your way up, i never said then that you were gonna STAY scrubbing dunnies, just that most likely you were gonna start out at the lower echelons of the proverbial pecking order. A brilliant example of you "not listening" if you'd pardon the fact that we're communicating via text.

QuoteNo, I've pretty much been ignored entirely. Spelling and color were the only complaints prior to 2007 and I've been fixing that. The story and structure are sound and there have been background artifacts have been part of the images since 2004.

I think Drath covered this quite nicely, really.. you seem to either ignore, or attempt to blast out of the water when somebody comments, mostly just ignore... but for this topic, a giant wall of text that makes it hard to read in one go.

Quoteand no one said ANYTHING __ EVER__.  I' m always thrilled with comments and I would PM a response to let them know I had read their response because I was stupid that way. Of course, by not using the quote system tunskey is going to insinuated MAO 's Dialog or White Fox's Dialog as my own

i could argue that folks have said stuff, but i've already said my bit on THAT. However, as i said before, i used the quote system to help facilitate easier reading of a post, the quote tags do exist for that very reason.

QuoteThis argument at least supports that what I've created  is in fact art and validates me as an artist.

"art" is a very subjective word, here. recently Roger Ebert stated that video games were not art. however that doesn't make video games any less of an art form, just like Piero Manzoni's "artist's shit", is also ironically "art" but that also doesn't change what it was thought to be inside those little thirty gram tins.

QuoteI already have my own personal archives, and the pages are not actually stored in the forum here, they're on photobucket. Plus, my comics are approx 500K each because I like quality  as much as the next person. 

you REALLY don't understand how the internet works, do you? You mustn't, since you never really said anything to the contrary to this post, but if your comics are half a meg each, that must make your threads nightmarish for those with slower than broadband speeds, hell, it's slow on a 1mbit+ connect sometimes.
Would it kill you to just post the image links?

QuoteSweet I have inking talent... (just kidding. Seriously I have just as much talent as you do.)

further proof of you "not listening" to folks, i said Inkling... here, let me pull up the meaning since it seems that you don't know this little slice of the English language:
ink·ling   [ingk-ling]
–noun
1. a slight suggestion or indication; hint; intimation: They hadn't given us an inkling of what was going to happen.
2. a vague idea or notion; slight understanding: They didn't have an inkling of how the new invention worked.

i said you *had* an "Inkling of talent"

QuoteOMG!!! You think I'm a talented artist and writer. Page views would indicate that there are at least 17 readers 3 of which I'm guessing are Mods. In all seriousness I have never claimed to be a talented artist or writer so  I thank you for the backhanded compliment or whatever you were trying to imply.

now, page views also include your own, for the record.. but, do note that WF's DSOF generates more attention than yours, take that as you will, and perhaps learn something from that, he's obviously doing something right, that you aren't.

In closing i find that you have wasted potential that is compounded by your unwillingness to learn from those who could give you helpful advice, and your egotistical nature, if i never gave you an 'art review' i can give one now.

For starters i'll give the 'color' thing a pass, since you use the same 25 or so colors, theres not much one can do about that aside from the "expand your color palette" comment.

Your anatomy has always been off, where it's either uneven bodies, shoddy foreshortening techniques or just stretched limbs where it suits, i can't genuinely fix that, and somehow i don't think you've tried. Take a look at the progression of a lot of webcomics on the internet, see how some of the more popular have improved over the years, then look at yours.. Truth be told you've stagnated.
Writing? well, again i'm no expert, but yours is, quite frankly, all over the place.. whatever story you have going lacks cohesion, and definitely lacks the draw of the short-story.. even one-shot pages have a consistency going on.
Your comic's pacing is all over the place as well, it shows clearly that you have some idea about "storyboarding" but you have some issues with the execution of that. Again, that can't be fixed with simple advice, just learning from one's mistakes might help you along that way.

that's all i'll have to say, but i shall end with a question: How long have you been drawing for?

Guys... I'm trying to have a conversation here. Do you mind?

You're not helping.

WhiteFox, rather than trying to tell others to butt out of a conversation in a public place, why don't you take it to PM's if you don't want others to join in, hmm?

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on April 22, 2010, 04:13:54 PM
GL: OMG!!! You think I'm a talented artist and writer. Page views would indicate that there are at least 17 readers 3 of which I'm guessing are Mods. In all seriousness I have never claimed to be a talented artist or writer so  I thank you for the backhanded compliment or whatever you were trying to imply.

3? There's 7 mods, last time I counted. Which four of them are you accusing of not doing their job, just out of interest?

My money is totally on Darkmoon.

He's probably out boozing it up on Clockwork Mansion company hours too.

Wait, are the mods required to read all the new posts? Because in other places i know, they generally come in if summoned and otherwise behave as  normal members (AKA the Superman method)

Quote from: danman on April 23, 2010, 01:25:21 PM
Wait, are the mods required to read all the new posts? Because in other places i know, they generally come in if summoned and otherwise behave as  normal members (AKA the Superman method)

naw, they just wear the tights for fun.

Last I checked, they weren't required to do anything. :P  This is their play house.  We're all just visitors.  However they all seem to be pretty gracious hosts and have taken care to make sure that all threads get the attention that they deserve.  I know for a fact that at llearch reads all but three threads.  He's quite epic like that.

All. . . threads but . . 3?

Dear god, the man is a machine.

No, the man is a box.

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on April 23, 2010, 01:45:51 PM
No, the man is a box.

A world heavy-weight boxing champion, no less.

Nonchalant Paran0ia

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/filler.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/filler.jpg

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http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott2-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott2-1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott3-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott3-1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott4-1.jpg)
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http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott5-1.jpg


Puppies in purgatory: the directors cut (2003) colored... note the dialog on page five was altered, page four has the edited dialog that appeared in NIO, sniffing glue was the unedited version, I also have the scans for the pencil versions of all present pages. I also added "meanwhiles" and "elsewheres" among other little cues to let the reader know time had passed.

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip2.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip2.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip3.jpg)
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(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip4.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip4.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip5.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip5.jpg

Is Nonchalant Paran0ia new material, or also a "Directors Cut?"

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott6-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott6-1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott7-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott7-1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott8-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott8-1.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott9-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott9-1.jpg




(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip6.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip6.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip7.jpg)
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(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip8.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip8.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip9-1.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip9.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip10.jpg)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip10.jpg

Pages 9 and 10 of puppies in purgatory have been edited writing wise.

I have been drawing long form comics independently since 2001.

@ whitefox  Writing wise .... yes, and the art is fairly current as well. Although, being a previously on... it's more or less traced over  2003 art for the first 8 pages. I can share the old 2003 cover art if your interested in comparison. like all my comics it's a mish-mash of different years and stories. for instance the first seven pages of fools night out is more current than the rest of it.

Well, there's not much point to making constructive comments unless the material is recent. So, I'll refrain from comment.

Also, the mish-mash thing makes it very hard to follow these comics.

writing, line art, and panel arrangement, of nonchalant paranoia is as recent as October of 2009... but I really like the organic look of the frames and I was going back to a more primitive look to the artwork.

My main interest is improving my coloring skills... light shadow rim lights, reflections, and mood setting. for nonchalant paranoia I'm also going to be working on my pencil and inking skills... but that also causes problems for coloring so I'm trying to figure out a way to balance them so that it looks good as a sketch, ink, or colored. I do know how to flat color in illustrator photoshop and soap. what I'm trying to figure out is how to make it look good like water color or oils. 

I have noticed that blue ink is annoying and gritty when converted and I noticed a lot of holes in my earlier artwork that I have had to compensate for. 

Nonchalant Paran0ia

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott11.jpg)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott11.jpg

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott12.jpg)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/tsjott12.jpg


Puppies in Purgatory

(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip11.jpg)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip11.jpg


(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip12.jpg)

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d12/GabrielsThoughts/pip12.jpg

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on May 29, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
My main interest is improving my coloring skills... light shadow rim lights, reflections, and mood setting. for nonchalant paranoia I'm also going to be working on my pencil and inking skills... but that also causes problems for coloring so I'm trying to figure out a way to balance them so that it looks good as a sketch, ink, or colored. I do know how to flat color in illustrator photoshop and soap. what I'm trying to figure out is how to make it look good like water color or oils. 

My personal philosophy is to grab a brush and start putting shadows where ever it looks like there should be shadows.

PSG7 has a really good tutorial (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm) on all kinds of stuff. On top of all the light/shadow topics, check out the Flatten and Simplify (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm#flatten_and_simplify).

Actually, the whole thing is full of good stuff.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on May 29, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
I have noticed that blue ink is annoying and gritty when converted and I noticed a lot of holes in my earlier artwork that I have had to compensate for. 

I use a 2H pencil, drawing lightly, and india ink. The 2H erases pretty cleanly.

Quote from: WhiteFox on June 07, 2010, 12:22:32 AM

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on May 29, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
My main interest is improving my coloring skills... light shadow rim lights, reflections, and mood setting. for nonchalant paranoia I'm also going to be working on my pencil and inking skills... but that also causes problems for coloring so I'm trying to figure out a way to balance them so that it looks good as a sketch, ink, or colored. I do know how to flat color in illustrator photoshop and soap. what I'm trying to figure out is how to make it look good like water color or oils. 

My personal philosophy is to grab a brush and start putting shadows where ever it looks like there should be shadows.

PSG7 has a really good tutorial (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm) on all kinds of stuff. On top of all the light/shadow topics, check out the Flatten and Simplify (http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/art_tut.htm#flatten_and_simplify).

Actually, the whole thing is full of good stuff.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on May 29, 2010, 11:52:56 PM
I have noticed that blue ink is annoying and gritty when converted and I noticed a lot of holes in my earlier artwork that I have had to compensate for. 

I use a 2H pencil, drawing lightly, and india ink. The 2H erases pretty cleanly.

General advice?
First: You can get photo blue and red pencils, don't show up in scanners, pain in the butt to erase if you make a mistake, but overall saves you a lot of elbow grease on finished work.

Second: I won't go into the nitty-gritty of inks and such, but tools an artist does not make. Sure you could have your technical pens, your vast pots of india ink and such... and yet still be beaten by the professional artist wielding nothing more than a 2 dollar gel-ink pen.
My advice? grab some archival pigment ink pens like Pigma microns, and use them to further refine one's ability to draw smoothly and consistently before you bother yourself with getting the more in-depth stuff.

But stay the hell away from brush pens, they're evil incarnate.

yes, how fortunate for you you can claim superiority of a black line. Like I said before, I've been drawing long form comics since 2001. I even know what pens I used. I've used everything from Intyo technical pens, to sharpies, to liquid expressions, and my personal favorite uniball. Puppies in purgatory was colored in liquid expressions  red ink, and Nonchalant Paranoia was colored with a blue uniball. It goes without saying that I used adobe illustrator to convert the ink into digital format and then pasted it over the colored image, however when I originally posted the image to the internet I  converted the earlier line art to monochrome. I initially figured out about the holes in my line art in 2007, I had corrected for it in later works, but as I mentioned before the opening of nonchalant paranoia is a trace over of an earlier work made in 2003. I updated facial features and style to match my most current line  art the writing is completely different from the original. For example the cyborg alien girl was ran over by a car, the cat girl at the party was actually the ghost of Bade's sister  ... my sense of humor has since changed. I don't find horror movie blood and gore as humorous as I once did. Plus the art really sucked, look at the scale of the parking meters and the mendicant  backgrounds to see what I mean.


I'm actually surprised that Turnskey is such an elitist @$$4073, especially considering I discovered the Foxfire Chronicles back when it was pure suck. In fact, I would have never heard of him or Exterminatus Now if it weren't for the promotional comicgeneisis/keenspace print comic a few years back trying to get people to sign up. It goes without saying that a line produced with a technical pen looks stronger than one produced with a ball point pen. What I don't like about sharpies is that one has to be precision oriented and quick or the  ink bleeds, I think sharpies really look their best when they're almost dry, but it seems like such a waste not to use them until they're completely destroyed. Then again, the quality of a comic, or a book, or a tv series, Movie, newspaper, blog, or website has never been judged on artwork or storytelling alone. Luck and marketing has something to do with it also. even the bible says time and chance happening to them all.  :spidey


and @ white fox thank you for the link(s)!

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on June 07, 2010, 11:25:36 AM
yes, how fortunate for you you can claim superiority of a black line.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on June 07, 2010, 11:25:36 AMI'm actually surprised that Turnskey is such an elitist @$$4073, especially considering I discovered the Foxfire Chronicles back when it was pure suck. In fact, I would have never heard of him or Exterminatus Now if it weren't for the promotional comicgeneisis/keenspace print comic a few years back trying to get people to sign up.

I don't know why people bother giving you advice.

Quote from: Keaton the Black Jackal on June 07, 2010, 03:24:25 PM
I don't know why people bother giving you advice.

Because he's asking for it, and he needs it.

Anytime I've given him a piece of advice, he's taken it remarkably well.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/gelink.jpg)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/gelink.jpg

now, the one on the left is just the straight up scan, the other is scanned in using the scanner's bitmap channels to remove the blue lines and make the black stand out.

no editing whatsoever.

Tools maketh not the man, but rather the man maketh the tools.

as for the pen? $2.50 australian.

Quote from: Turnsky on June 08, 2010, 05:17:52 AM
Tools maketh not the man, but rather the man maketh the tools.

Yes. We know. We get it already. It's not the tools, it's how you use them.

Thank you for stating the blindingly obvious as condescendingly as possible. May we get back to more productive topics of discussion now?

WhiteFox, ease down.

I think both you and GabrielsThoughts are reading far more into Turnsky's comments than is there. He's been polite. He's been straightforward. And the response from both of you is to jump down his throat.

He stated:

Quote from: Turnsky on June 07, 2010, 08:08:27 AM
Second: I won't go into the nitty-gritty of inks and such, but tools an artist does not make. Sure you could have your technical pens, your vast pots of india ink and such... and yet still be beaten by the professional artist wielding nothing more than a 2 dollar gel-ink pen.
My advice? grab some archival pigment ink pens like Pigma microns, and use them to further refine one's ability to draw smoothly and consistently before you bother yourself with getting the more in-depth stuff.

To which GabrielsThoughts responded entirely out of the blue, abusively, and, quite frankly, not what I consider to be acceptable.

Turnsky has attempted to clarify his point, politely and without abuse, and you're now jumping down his throat for that.


How would you have preferred him to respond? With more abuse, thereby dragging the whole thread into the Abandoned Mine? I don't think any of you want that. I know I don't.



Chill, please. Both of you.

This thread annoys me.

I'm talking it over with the mods, while we decide what to do with you.

In the meantime :locked

I was summoned. Egos were bruised, people complained, and I was summoned. For some of you, this was a very bad thing, because I was thus forced to read this goddamned thread, and having just suffered through the grating stupidity of it, I am now fully versed and ready to beat the shit out of some of the people involved.

GabrielsThoughts:

This forum for is for criticism. As people all over this thread have commented, you need help with your pathetic little comics. I read them. They blow. The comments people gave you were an attempt (a final one, as plainly they've tried before and you ignored them) to get through to you some useful ideas on what you could do to improve.

Your response? "It's my style." I read that over and over again, both from you and the people commenting towards you.

You know what, great. If that's what you're trying for, and you're happy with it, and you don't want to change it, then be my guest. Keep making shitty little comics that no one except WhiteFox (and me, since I was forced to act in this thread) will ever read, and even WhiteFox, the only guy that seems even remotely on your side at all through this, says he hates the comic.

Here's the deal, though. Make it all you want, but stop posting it here. Remember where I said this forum was for criticism? Yeah, that's the part you aren't getting. It's not your personal posting board to act as an archive of your comic. If you wanted a forum for your comics, you could have asked the moderators, as others have done, as we could have set you up a subsection in the Halfmoon Theather. That's what that section was designed for.

Of course, even then, it would just be for discussion about your comic. You'd still have to use a site, and not post the actual comics here.

Also, at this point, I doubt you have any fans among the admins and I seriously doubt they would be willing to give you help in the matter.

Expanding this out further, what I see, from people directed at you, is that you are a self-centered little prick. Normally I'd be okay with this. I'm a prick. Mao is a prick. Bill and Zina too (and Zina doesn't even have one). The key is that you don't know when not to be a prick. It's all the time. I've noticed it in the past, but since no one else (among the mods) said anything, I simply ignored it. It's my defense on this place when I see someone that irritates me.

Plainly, though, it's not just me, so I feel justified in telling you to calm the fuck down and to learn to post like a mature adult (as opposed to the entitled little seven year old I expect you likely are).

Whitefox:

From what I've seen you're honestly trying to have a real conversation here, and I would normally applaud that. Cutting through the muck and the flame wars is commendable, but only when it's done in such a way so as to actually refocus the conversation and add new material. What's happening here is that you're either simply saying "I'm trying to have a conversation" or "you're not helping".

We know both of these things, and, in response: it's because trying to talk to GT is like trying to talk to a brick wall. A retarded, retarded brick wall.

What I would suggest is to try and find a new thread to participate in, one where honest critique is happening and where the artist is actually listening. In the future, if you see a thread that pisses you off, where you think the artist is being unfairly treated, report it to the mods. If we don't do something (the rules state we should), then we must not have felt the matter warranted action. In that case, ignore the thread. Don't make matters worse.

Turnsky:

I haven't paid much attention to you in the past. This isn't a bad thing. I never really noticed you much before, so obviously you were doing something right.

Having now read this thread, I have to say: I like your style. Good work.

Also, in response to something you said, which became a major point of contenting, having good tools does not make you a good artist. I know, first hand, that just because you can have great tools (which I do), you can still be a shitty artist (which I am). All the fantastic tools in the world will not save GT's artwork.

Now everyone shut the fuck up and let me go back to being an uncaring douchebag.