Are formats misunderstood?

[Rowne]

The Warlike recently brought up this point:

I'll never understand the appeal of pc games when 99% are paint by the numbers RPG's and Shooters.

I disagree but generally I find that misinformed opinions like these are commonplace, not just about the PC but every format out there, simply because it's easier to have an easy opinion based on the public view rather than it is for one to find out for oneself.

By this merit, this attitude could be applied to just about any gaming format out there, for example:

o Nintendo; one could say that all the games for their consoles are either for children or manchildren, that's obviously not the case but does seem to be the public view.  People mix up casual with kiddie-game.

o Sony; one could say that only 'hip-hop uberdudes' and 'wannabe gangsta mofo rappas' tend to play their consoles due to the rep that's built up around the Playstation brand and the games that are popular for the platform.  I'd say that once again, this seems to be a fallacious view flying in the face of the facts, Sony has as much quirky content as anyone else.

o Microsoft; one could easily say that it's just a cheap PC knockoff and a pretender to the throne, that it obviously has no future in the business.  Rather fallacious since such a person would be overlooking the targeted market demographic, exclusive titles (such as Halo) and Live Arcade.

Going by what's popular or often said about a machine isn't an informed opinion, it's just an easy way to have at least some opinion.  If one scratches the surface of any gaming platform though, there's a lot more there than these easy opinions would dictate.

I'd say that before anyone should judge any gaming platform, they should find out what that platform has to offer.  In the PC's case, every genré is thriving and there is an underground scene of indie, freeware and Free games which are different than commercial efforts, both unmarketed and mass-marketed.  There's a lot more than the apparent '99 per cent' mentioned.

I've decided to move this here because it could spark a debate and such a thing deserves a new thread rather than polluting an existing thread.

[luiqui]

I'll never understand the appeal of pc games when 99% are paint by the numbers RPG's and Shooters.

And here I am, holding that exact opinion  A view which is quite understandable, I think, when you consider the bulk of what makes up the PC game shelf at the local game shop. Coupled to this is the fact that I never can seem to enjoy FPSs (RPGs are fine, but I don't think i could subsist on a diet of RPGs alone) and you may understand why PC gaming has never really seemed appealing to me. Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of other genres on the PC, perhaps containing some games that are shining examples of them. But the point is that I'm happy with being a 'manchild' and playing my kidsy platformers and puzzle games on Gamecube and DS; they are simply the types of game that appeal to me. I love the sort of games that appear on consoles with such frequency and polish. There has never seemed to be an incentive for me to investigate deeply into the PC gaming world, regardless of what I may find, because I like where I am.

However, in an attempt to change my opinion in the middle of an argument, I'll reveal that I find myself more an more intrigued by the underground scene to which you allude, if only for the mental image of a group of graphic artists working on stolen laptops in an abandoned warehouse, selling their wares to tall shady men in trenchcoats, and their frequent attempts to invade the turf of a group of level designers a few blocks down...

Um, I mean, I find it interesting for the democratising effect it has on game development. As commercial games become more and more expensive to produce, and consequently more and more static, the indie scene could bring a change of pace, a breath of fresh air from the cloistered commercial world.

So, in an attempt to wrap this up and make it relevent - I don't think it's wrong to hold prejudices about games platforms. One may appeal to you more than the others for whatever trivial reason, and then you like what you find, and stick with it. Not everyone has the time to really check out all the options, anyway. It is however wrong to bash someone else for having different prejudices than yours - that's the stuff of idiot flamewars.

[Rowne]

I don't understand the view, personally.  As I said, I think it's a bit misinformed.  I don't think that any view that isn't backed up by the facts of the matter is an understandable view ...

Let's take this point by point.

1.) First of all, you mention 'game stores'.  A lot of PC production today has moved to digital distribution.  This is what I talk about when I mean that one should have all the facts.  MMOs are often distributed in this way, as are a great many games.  You have systems like Steam and Direct2Drive, GameTap and many others.  Uru Live isn't going to show up in stores and that game's likely going to be very big.

If you're talking about the PC, you have to count the items which aren't on sale and those that are available via digital distribution.  The stuff that's 'on the shelves' only represents a very tiny portion of the PC diet, it's not representative of the PC library.  I'd say it's quite the opposite.

2.) You mention the word 'manchild'.  Am I to assume that you're implying that I believe that console gamers are manchildren?  The point of my first post was that I was going out of my way to debunk this myth.  Casual gamers are not 'manchildren' in any way, shape or form.  I don't think it's a nice term but it is one I've heard used.

3.) You mention puzzle games; try Professor Fizzwhizzle and Eets for the PC.  Then look into sites such as IndieGamer, GameTunnel, Man!festo Game, Home of the Underdogs and so on and so on.

4.) Polished puzzle games appear with frequency on the PC, too.  As do games of every genré.  Just because they're not mass-marketed doesn't mean they're not there.  This is yet another myth that I desire to bust.

5.) The underground scene is pretty much as you envision it.  It's the recreation of the 'bedroom or garage coder' attitude.  One person or a small group of people putting together a game without needing big bucks or an uber megacorp to back up their efforts.  A lot of the best of what the PC has to offer comes from this scene and I frequently enjoy games released by them.

6.) In regards to the commercial view, there are a lot of good commercial games, they just aren't widely advertised.  In fact, I could pick up a nearby PC magazine and cite a number of good games that were commercially released without fanfare, games that are unique and not of overabused genrés.  I could do this right now and if asked to, I'll go and grab the latest issue of PC Gamer/Zone and do just that.

The indie scene is grand and it does knock out a lot of innovative stuff, a lot more than the commercial World does and this is a point I wouldn't dream of combatting but the indie scene isn't the only source of originality on the PC.

Oh and then you have the open source movement.  Wesnoth, Nethack, Stepmania, et al.

7.) I don't think it's wrong to have bias towards platforms.  I think it's wrong to hold uninformed prejudices against platforms.  It just makes the person with the prejudice look silly because, to use a metaphor, they're playing the game without a full deck of cards.

8.) Not everyone has the time to check out platforms, no.  Such people however should then keep their opinions to themselves.  Just because a person doesn't know something about a platform, it doesn't mean they need to run off at the mouth about a platform they don't understand or know anything about.  If people only spoke about that which they knew, the World in general would be a better place.  Again, we come to the point of uninformed opinions and that's what's irked me a bit here.  I have nothing against informed opinions backed up by facts and knowledge at all.

Platforms don't deserve to be disparaged by people who don't really know what they're talking about.  It's not fair to the platform in question.  Back on the Oblivion boards I actively defended the X-Box (as a PC user) against the hordes of PC users who would abuse the X-Box users who wandered in with technical help and mod related questions.  I'd do my best to help them and I'd do the research to learn what I needed to know rather than making vapourish attacks.

There are three choices, here.  a) If you know about a topic, talk about it.  b) If you don't know about a topic, talk about it anyway.  c) If you don't know about a topic, don't talk about it.  I'd say that both a & c are fair.

9.) Where did "idiot flamewars" come from?  Am I a flamer for speaking out against people who speak on a topic without actually having intimate knowledge about the topic?  Fine, have a bias towards a machine.  Once again I'll say that I'm not against that in the least, be pro-DS or pro-Gamecube, go for it!  I'll defend you until the very last.  What I am saying is whilst you're being pro-something, you don't have to be anti-something else [that you don't knowa bout].  See?

* Rowne sighs.

I'll leave it at that, I really don't want to come over as the bad guy, here.  All I'm against is when people hate something when they don't know anything about what it is that they're actually doing the hating of.  I think it's pointless and silly.  I've made my point anyway, I'll let others discuss in my stead.

Stuff like this just depresses me, I'm sorry.

----

Okay, I will return to list unique commercial games if I had to since I invited that challenge, it wouldn't be polite to ignore it but everything else I'll leave alone because I really don't want to get into an argument.  I think this whole thing is just too silly.

----

Edit: Fixed a few ambiguous wording errors, I tend to make a lot of typos which is why I edit a lot.  <.<

Anyway, for those that want to, tear away at that if you like but I think I've made a fair point and I don't think I was nasty.  I tried my best not to be, if I was then I apologize.

[Aridas]

All I can say here is that I've played plenty of PC games, and you'd have to be on crack to say they're all RPGs and shooters.

[luiqui]

K THEN BIG REPLY TIME

1. True. Yes, that's something I hadn't considered. I must admit, I'm largely ignorant of the PC gaming world. And that's something that may or may not change. I don't see why it's something that *must* change either. It's an issue that affects only me, what I do and don't play, and I'm not sure if I care enough. That probably sounds like a dig at you, it's not meant to be I assure you.

2. Don't worry! I was only making fun of myself

3 - 4. Yes, puzzle games on PC, I don't doubt that they're out there. I just can't be arsed to look right now, k? That's my whole point, really.

5. I'm glad ^^

6. I seem to have romanticised the situation somewhat, which was a bit of poor judgement on my part. Many original games are coming out through commercial channels, true. The situation may even improve in the future, rather than getting worse, with stuff like Katamari getting everyone's attention.

7. Well, that depends if they're talking about it or not. If it's just a silly idea they have in their mind that PSX is for gangstas and GC is for 8 year olds or watev, then there can't possibly be anything wrong with it. They may or may not be missing out, that's beside the point. If they start telling people their prejudices as fact, then there's a problem.

8. I seemed to have covered this in my last reply. Needless to say, I agree.

9. Not directed at you! I'm trying to agree with you actually, you put it a lot better than me in the paragraphs under point 8.

"All I'm against is when people hate something when they don't know anything about what it is that they're actually doing the hating of."

Quite noble. But please don't think I hate the PC, or PSX, or anything else. I just don't want to play them right now. There's lot's of things I could be playing, I choose not them. Just because I don't do something, doesn't mean I'm against it. Take, I dunno... skydiving. At this precise moment in time, I don't skydive. This is not because I have an irrational hatred towards skydiving. It's just not something that it's ever occured to me to do.

[Vidar]

* cough *

Many of the major releases for PC are FPS or RPG, because the marketing guru's believe those will target the largest focus groups.

For innovation, look to the indy game scene. Loads of crap, but there are a few gems in there (as is with all game platforms).

[Rowne]

I can't believe I forgot about Armadillo Run!  That's such a brilliant game.  I love stuff that uses physics to baffle me.

Bwah, I even forgot to mention JayIsGames.  I've played some fantastic stuff recently due to that place.

[Aridas]

And who can forget about the old days of PC gaming? Just get your hands on a shareware CD with "1000" (or more) titles on it, and you'll see all sorts of things dating as far back as the early 90's. There's golden age PC gaming right there.

[luiqui]

I posted without finishing my reply, so I had to go back and edit it. Scroll up and check it out it you're interested.

EDIT: Hmm, no one's smote or applauded me yet. I must say, I'm rather enjoying my perfect karmic balance.

Ommm...

[Aridas]

Oh, and puzzle games... THOSE are what the PC has coming out the ass... Things I could probably do without now.

[Rowne]

Aridas: I still have some of those CDs!  They used to bundle them with British mags like crazy, I have one CD that has a menu on it with something like 5,000 shareware games and demos, it was of the Lemmings 3D era, just a little earlier probably.

I remember taking the DOS menu from that CD and hacking it up to use it as a menu for my actual games because I was too lazy to write yet more batch files at the time.  <.<

luiqui: I hope you can forgive me if I don't formulate a big reply.  I just want to keep to what I said about not persisting this debate any longer.

The one thing I will say though is that a lot of what I was pointing out was in general and I used what you said referentially towards those with the attitude of the Warlike since you seemed to be supporting his way of thinking.

That is all.

Aridas II: Can't say I completely disagree with that.  <.<  I do like Armadillo Run a lot, though.

----

Oh and that CD had that Thor game on it!  That game was really good and I want to play it again now and I don't exactly know where that CD is (likely in storage).  It doesn't help that I can't exactly remember the full name of that PC Thor game but it was very good.  It was a pseudo-Zelda I & II game with lots more puzzling.

I think I'll go and look around the internet.

Ah, here it is!  Found it on the Underdogs.  I had a lot of fun with that one.

[Aridas]

GOD OF THUNDER! *dies*

Someone ELSE actually played that game! *has renewed interest in finding a way to extract the music*
That game was disappointingly easy on the second playthrough though... Knowing how to do everything kinda sucks.

[Rowne]

This is true but I need to play it again now because I've likely forgotten how everything works and I remember having such a laugh playing it through the first time.

I can understand your desire to rip the music, it was really very good.

Also, is it my imagination or were the sound effects for that game really, really funny?  I remember thinking to myself at the time that they had to have had a tongue in cheek attitude when developing that game, considering the sound effects and the dialogue.

I'll never forget the GLOMP! sound the guy made whenever he ate something.

[luiqui]

The one thing I will say though is that a lot of what I was pointing out was in general and I used what you said referentially towards those with the attitude of the Warlike since you seemed to be supporting his way of thinking.

Well the phrase "here I am, holding that exact opinion" would seem to have implied that yah.

Argument ends!

[Aridas]

I have those sounds saved somewhere.. I like the "Ooh" every time you pick up gems/etc.

There's plenty of humor out of getting caught by the guards in the 3rd chapter, but I won't spoil any of that if you don't remember.

[Rowne]

You know ... I've done it again.  I've gone and bloody hijacked a thread.

So ...

Proper divigation time!

(Edit: Whoops, accidentally hit back in a tab.  <.<)

[Cvstos]

A genre you guys are forgetting is strategy.  The PC is the home of strategy games.  Command & Conquer, BMFE, WarCraft, StarCraft, Civilization, Sim City, Rome: Total War, Age of Mythology and Age of Empires, Medieval: Total War, Company of Heroes, Rise of Nations, and countless others. 

The PC has a lot of great games out there.  It's why I've made it my gaming platform of choice. 

[Rowne]

Props to you, Mr. Cvstos.  Rise of Nations is awesome.  Anything with a side named "The Vinci Army" would have to be.

[Blazehawk]

A genre you guys are forgetting is strategy.  The PC is the home of strategy games.  Command & Conquer, BMFE, WarCraft, StarCraft, Civilization, Sim City, Rome: Total War, Age of Mythology and Age of Empires, Medieval: Total War, Company of Heroes, Rise of Nations, and countless others. 

The PC has a lot of great games out there.  It's why I've made it my gaming platform of choice. 

Much delicious gaming goodness you have there. I love pretty much all those you listed.  Especially Civilization and Rise of Nations...those two are probably my favorites out of that list. The Civilization games will eat your soul though, I can be playing them for 8 hours and never notice. 

[Rowne]

Oops, I skipped over Civilization!

I loved Civilization because it was a very alternate reality-ist thing.  It amused me on many an occasion.

Such as ...

Hatshepsut: I, the dolled up leader of the Egyptians, offer to trade you this delectible, sumptuous and ripe crate of bananas in exchange for some of your shiny, green ... yuu-ray-nee-um ... !

Ghandi: OKAY!  I'm in a good mood after inventing the internet so that sounds like a really good deal! 

Hatshepsut: GLEE!  Inform the French that Anubis comes for them.

Ghandi: Ohnoes, what have I done?

Huayna: Oh, don't feel bad Ghandi.  You gave us such wonders as the Oxford University and Broadway, you have done much for this World.  Um ... can we have some free pigs?

Ghandi: Sure, sure.

Bismarck: Er ... WE WANT WINES!!!  XD

Ghandi: Peess awf.

Oh dear, oh dear oh dear oh dear.  I apologize for character-assassinating some of the greatest people in history, I really do.

[Xuzaf D]

Okay, so...

-You started a new thread just to bitch at how wrong I am.

-You refered to my opinion as "misinformed," which pretty much is the same as saying I don't know shit.

-and (here's the good part) you derailed your own thread to talk about some RPG.

I can't believe you would actually try to argue about some quick statement I said and take it so god damn seriously. I mean, honestly, am I to believe if I said something more along the lines of "78.92% of the games commonly seen on the PC are action shooters, RPG's and strategy games," then you wouldn't be pissing and moaning about it?

And by the by- I am fully aware that beyond shooters and RPG's that there are strategy and simulation games aswell. But when you get right down to it, PC is still majorly RPG and shooter followed then by strategy, simulation, and puzzle genres.

So please do tell me how it is now my job to make sure I list every coffee break puzzle game out there everytime I bring up the fact that there is a new RPG every damn weekend about some evil king that needs to be killed by some hobbit farmboy. I'm all ears.

[Rowne]

No~ope, Mr. Warlike.  I started a thread to have ... an opinion.  Say it with me now ... oh-pinion.  Not everyone has the same opinion.  I just disagreed with you, that's all.

I didn't say that "you don't know (cuss)", you said that.  You quite clearly said that and I didn't.  All implications are yours alone.  You know, you wouldn't be so angry if you didn't imply stuff.  All I said that your opinion was misinformed, that you didn't have all the facts.  That's not the same was what you said.  Quite different in fact!

God of Thunder is a puzzle game.  Check the genré information at the Underdogs.  It has a few character building elements but it has more to do with Bomberman than it has to do with Final Fantasy.  See, this is why I said that you didn't have all the facts.  I don't think it was too far off.  Do you?  This is all silly, don't you think?  It's just like repeating history.  We go around and around ... and around and around ... and around.  Except this time, I'm not taking it too seriously!  Or at all, in fact.

I wasn't "pissing and moaning".  Again, those are your words.  You made a statement and I had an oh-pinion regarding that statement.  Are you really so against opinions that disagree with your own World view?  Not everyone thinks the same way.  You have your views, I have mine.

Oh and moving right along, you're now saying that the PC's library isn't comprised of 99 per cent shooters and RPGs?  I agree!  I'm glad we had this little chat.

[xHaZxMaTx]

Oh noes, flame wars!

[Rowne]

Naaah.  It's only flaming if one party is taking it seriously, isn't it?

I'm not.  At all.  I think it's all very silly and pointless.

----

I think it's quite funny, in fact.  But still, I don't want to be considered a flamer even if all I was doing was having a joke at the Warlike's expense.

So I'll leave it at that and he can say whatever he likes.  *Perky.*

[Arcalane]

5.) The underground scene is pretty much as you envision it.  It's the recreation of the 'bedroom or garage coder' attitude.  One person or a small group of people putting together a game without needing big bucks or an uber megacorp to back up their efforts.  A lot of the best of what the PC has to offer comes from this scene and I frequently enjoy games released by them.

I have two words-

Introversion Software.[/i]

Makers of Uplink, Darwinia, and more recently, Defcon. Three what I would call "Unique" games in their own right, despite the many ripoff attempts on Uplink.

Only time will tell what they'll make as project #4. And I'm sure their followers will all be holding their breath.

~~

Oops, I skipped over Civilization!

I loved Civilization because it was a very alternate reality-ist thing.  It amused me on many an occasion.

Ah yes, one of the funniest aspects of Civ, especially #4. One of my most memorable moments was, as the Japanese, declaring war on the Germans to get myself some Oil Deposits. In the very same game, I had no less than 4 Uranium Deposits popping up after I discovered the requisite technology, two of which already had mines on because I make a habit of putting mines on every hill on the map that I can build on.

[Rowne]

I actually have Uplink (original CD with bloody weird binary copyright protection) and Darwinia (grabbed off Steam in order to avoid possible bloody weird copyright protection), they're both wonderful games.  I even used Uplink's interface as a base for my Last.fm sig-tracker.  So why didn't I think to mention them?  I honestly don't know.  This is one of those headslap-d'oh! moments.

I'd really love to see more of Uplink, too.  Actually, I'm also surprised I didn't give Kudos a mention at any point.  I've had a lot of fun with that game.  I admit, primarily because it has modifiable jobs for the character in said life-simulator.  It's funny sending the guy off to work as a Crash Test Dummy, a Ren-Fair Jouster, an Evil Genius Minion, a "Welcome to Walmart" Person, a Resistance Fighter, a Catapult Quality Assurance Tester and so on.

And yeah, that sounds about right for Civ.  I just hope Mr. Meier loses even more of his sanity by five.  I'd love to watch the ancient Egyptians colonize space.

And so, as it was foretold, the people of Hatshepsut invented the Star-Drive and spread their wings out into the great galactic sea.

----

Actually, it's possible that this is in Civ IV and I just haven't played that long without my pacifistic nation falling apart, yet.

As an aside, I'm really looking forward to Spore and all the insane things that that will allow me to do.

[Aridas]

A Wal-Mart greeter? You sir, are cruel.

[Rowne]

Actually, the job was designed to boost his confidence, sociability and happyness.  He was quite merry about his station, to stand around all day repeating the term "Welcome to Walmart!" endlessly at complete strangers.

Now, whether that makes it better or worse ... is a matter of personal judgement!

I do admit, however, that designing that job in that particular way was very insideous.

[Arcalane]

And yeah, that sounds about right for Civ.  I just hope Mr. Meier loses even more of his sanity by five.  I'd love to watch the ancient Egyptians colonize space.

And so, as it was foretold, the people of Hatshepsut invented the Star-Drive and spread their wings out into the great galactic sea.

----

Actually, it's possible that this is in Civ IV and I just haven't played that long without my pacifistic nation falling apart, yet.

That reminds me - in another game, I nuked the Greeks. Repeatedly. I think I was Genghis Khan - either him or Kublai Khan. Beat that.

On that note, Blue Marble pack ftw.

[Xuzaf D]

No~ope, Mr. Warlike.  I started a thread to have ... an opinion.  Say it with me now ... oh-pinion.  Not everyone has the same opinion.  I just disagreed with you, that's all.

I didn't say that "you don't know (cuss)", you said that.  You quite clearly said that and I didn't.  All implications are yours alone.  You know, you wouldn't be so angry if you didn't imply stuff.  All I said that your opinion was misinformed, that you didn't have all the facts.  That's not the same was what you said.  Quite different in fact!

God of Thunder is a puzzle game.  Check the genré information at the Underdogs.  It has a few character building elements but it has more to do with Bomberman than it has to do with Final Fantasy.  See, this is why I said that you didn't have all the facts.  I don't think it was too far off.  Do you?  This is all silly, don't you think?  It's just like repeating history.  We go around and around ... and around and around ... and around.  Except this time, I'm not taking it too seriously!  Or at all, in fact.

I wasn't "pissing and moaning".  Again, those are your words.  You made a statement and I had an oh-pinion regarding that statement.  Are you really so against opinions that disagree with your own World view?  Not everyone thinks the same way.  You have your views, I have mine.

Oh and moving right along, you're now saying that the PC's library isn't comprised of 99 per cent shooters and RPGs?  I agree!  I'm glad we had this little chat.

Apparently we (we meaning you) don't understand what it means to "imply." More properly, I infer and you imply. In other words, I'm pointing out the fact that your implying I'm ignorant when you say I'm misinformed. You counter by saying somehow that the implication is my own, which in turn implies that I am now making up the idea that someone like you would ever imply anything, and am therefore either a liar or just insane.

To clarify:

I disagree but generally I find that misinformed opinions like these are commonplace, not just about the PC but every format out there, simply because it's easier to have an easy opinion based on the public view rather than it is for one to find out for oneself.

You make a statement about my "misinformed opinions" which I apparently gained "because it's easier to have an easy opinion based on the public view rather than it is for one to find out for oneself." Now unless I actually am insane, this quote is real. I think we can agree that this has been said, can't we?

Now, to look at this quote by way of reading it, we can define the statement by its words. Now let's look at some key terms:

prefix; Mis-: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mis-
word; informed: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/inform

This may take some thinking, but it seems that the term misinformed means (in short) I am not informed, and therefore do not have information. That implies things, and though it may surprise you, one of those things could be how "I don't know" or even how "I don't know things" and things could also be replaced by another word like "shit." Let's put that together now:

"You don't know shit."

Wow... I've actually used my power of reading to infer the definition of something.... astounding.

Now I now it may seem selfish of me to bring this up after showing of my ability to read, but back to my original quote:

I'll never understand the appeal of PC games when 99% are paint by the numbers RPG's and Shooters.

This is a statement: "I'll never understand the appeal of PC games..." based on this generalization: "...when 99% are paint by the numbers RPG's and Shooters." That means it's not an opinion to start out with, which means that we (the both of us as a whole) don't even have an argument to be made, since my side has no standing on any issue.

Now back to you:

No~ope, Mr. Warlike. I started a thread to have ... an opinion. Say it with me now ... oh-pinion. Not everyone has the same opinion. I just disagreed with you, that's all.

That's you stating we disagree on something I (as has just been clarified) had no say in, so this statement is one that will have to be ignored since it isn't based on any fact. I could also note how you imply I am unfamiliar with the word opinion by saying "Say it with me now ... oh-pinion," but this would only end up being egg on your face since we just went through how you mislabeled something as an opinion, so let's just ignore that, too.

On another minor issue:

Oh and that CD had that Thor game on it! That game was really good and I want to play it again now and I don't exactly know where that CD is (likely in storage). It doesn't help that I can't exactly remember the full name of that PC Thor game but it was very good. It was a pseudo-Zelda I & II game with lots more puzzling.

A comparison to Zelda the RPG series implies that it is an RPG, and though you do mention that it has "lots more puzzling" I am still left to infer that this still makes it an RPG that simply has more puzzles than an RPG standard like Zelda.



So in short: there is no argument, and you still pretty much called me a dumass. Of course I could have just said: "Stop the bullshit," rather than go about semantics, but I don't think the message would have been clear and I didn't want to make you cry since shit is obviously a naughty little word to you.