Brotherhood of the Machine (OOC Thread) {03}

[Tapewolf]

Speaking as a moderator I can't say I'm particularly pleased with the way this is going.  It could be a lot more civil.  I suspect llearch is following this too, but either way if it gets out of hand - and in my opinion it is getting dangerously close to that point - I will flag this thread with the rest of the team.

Speaking as a player, I can empathise with people who find it moves too swiftly on occasion - not everyone is able to check in every day after all. In my experience it usually does so in bursts rather than continuously, so for my money a strict rota system is probably overkill.  As Corg says, it would certainly break conversations between players and leave the whole experience somewhat less realistic and less satisfying as a result.

[Azlan]

Yes, oops... I'll shut up now. 

To Corg: I'm sorry, the problem is external to my control... real life issues that are hard to cope with, and the hate and frustration I cannot direct at its just target got directed at you.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

Ehh, no biggie. I let my irritation get the better of me as well.

[Ryudo Lee]

Okay let me say a few things here.  Wall-o-text time.

I was out of state yesterday, and so my response comes a little delayed.

First off, I want to give everyone as much equal "face time" as possible.  This is only possible if you are available and are posting.  It's not too much to ask that you make a quick post saying that you won't be around.  But it is understandable that sometimes you just can't.  That's fine.  As I've said and done in the past, if you're not posting, your character is following along, but is being quiet at the time.

Let me address a few things that were said.

And Corgatha, he did not ask you or anyone to design a system for him.  ......  If you have suggestions, put them down and allow him to evaluate.

I did ask for suggestions, so Az is right in this point.  I still want suggestions, and would like to hear from everyone.

... Additionally, I find it exceedingly tiresome to weed through all this OOC knowledge looking for any rare scrap of information or occurrence that might have been within my own characters purview.  Though that is my punishment for being out... regardless of circumstance of absence.

I don't think that anyone enjoys going through back posts.  How do you think I feel when I miss a day and find stuff like this waiting for me?  But it shouldn't be considered a punishment, but rather just more of the story to follow along with.  The last thing I want is for this game to become a chore for the players.  I've been in more than one tabletop game where the idea of showing up to play the game brought about groans of disappointment from the other players.  These games should be fun for everyone, and that's what I really want to accomplish here.

This is how I have always viewed this.  The situation is like that of tabletop game where a small handful of players are always pulling the GM/DM aside, leaving the rest of the players twiddling their thumbs as the GM is forced to narrate or run scenes involving a small group of characters while the remaining players just want to slog through the dungeon and reach the evil wizard for the final battle.  Those of you that are arguing for your own time to RP all you want are those who probably cause the previously mentioned situations.  I for one have done both and can not stand when other players selfishly believe their time, stories, and interactions are more important than anyone else's.  Just because you have more time does not give you more right.

I have one thing to say about this and it's that I want to explore EVERY character's backstory.  I don't want anyone feeling like bit players, existing only to support everyone else.  You created these characters with something in mind for them.  That should all come up and integrate in with the story, and it is my intention to ensure that it happens.  There's a reason that I've bookmarked everyone's characters in the first post, and that's to go back for references when it's time to put the spotlight on a given character.  So when you've got the spotlight, don't think that you're more important.  It's simply your character's story's turn.

Perhaps, I could have taken 40 seconds to post a notice that I'd be busy, perhaps not.  It may be as simple as you think it is, or it may not be.  You have no idea, you are not me.  I endeavor to try, trust me, but perhaps you could be the better... whatever you are, and think, "hmmm, so and so has not been posting for X amount of time... perhaps we should find out what's up" or "maybe we should find out what's going on before we get too far into things."  That is not fair to everyone else, no?  It is the sole responsibility of the embattled party to explain his/her absence.

QFT.  While it is not too difficult to make a quick post to say that you aren't going to be around for awhile, it's not unreasonable to think that circumstances will prevent that.  I am partially at fault here, as Azlan isn't the only person who has been absent from posting (Arc, I'm looking at you), and so in the spirit of keeping things moving and on pace, I've often goosed the story along without considering the absent people.  I should have seen these problems coming, and so I will be more considerate in the future.

The last time a major portion of an engagement had to be undertaken, we had to argue about things in medias res.  I want that ironed out before we start actions involving the Brotherhood.

Also keep in mind that any problems you guys may encounter within your own group can be safely worked on without interference.  I'm not the jackhole GM who will send in the horde of bad guys while you all are having a party conflict.  That's just unfair and paints me as a bad GM (IMHO).  It may be a little metagaming on my part, but I think that it's acceptable in the spirit of keeping the party together and therefore keeping the game from imploding in on itself.

If you haven't guessed it by now, I'm the GM who has a story to tell and I want you to get to the end of it.  If I ever put something impossible in front of you, it's a plot device.  I'm not out to kill the players.  I'm not that GM.  But at the same time, that doesn't mean you should become complacent.  If you put yourself in a situation that will kill you and you don't do anything about it, you will die.  Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

... Firstly, conversations. If I want to have a quick, two line dialog with another player, do we hold up the rest of the RP so that we have one post per person per cycle? Do we just ban all dialog and talk like Shakespearean characters, in huge dramatic speeches? Do we just view that all of our characters know what each other are thinking? You wind up sacrificing verisimilitude on some level, or  reduce the pace into tiny, bite sized segments, filled with characters doing nothing for their six seconds while two other people talk. I for one prefer to have people talk......... well, like people.

No.  We are not going to limit conversations.  If someone is obviously having a conversation with someone else, it's not a problem.  That doesn't mean that everyone else should stop posting.  A conversation is happens in real time, just like everything else.  Just because two people are talking doesn't mean that the whole world comes to a screeching halt.  This will be integrated into a system.

A RPG is a responsibility, to the other players as much as yourself. To keep everyone else hanging and to demand that they look you up when you go absent is absurd. When I tabletop, and I miss a session, I do not  hold a grudge if the others continue without me, especially if I do not announce my absence in advance.

There is truth in this, one that I hope everyone can understand.  If we move on without you, it is not out of spite.  Though we all should endeavor to attempt to make contact and wait a reasonable amount of time for the absent person to come around speak up.  But beyond that, fair is fair.  I will try harder to get in touch with the absent.  I will keep things from moving in order to give the absent ample time to speak up.  When we get beyond that, I'm moving the story along.

If you want to have your private, in depth, soul-searching, narcissistic word diarrhea eruptions then I would suggest they be taken to PMs, IMs, or emails.  You can send synopsizes to Ryudo and that way you can be sure to eliminate "character awareness" among those that do not deserve or are fitting to interact with you.

RPG stands for Role Playing Game. It does not stand for Interactive Tactical Puzzle. Quite frankly, if you think that the ultimate character is a set of statistics, then that is your business. If you have years of RP experience, then you should realize that telling other people how to write and play their characters is extremely gauche. If you do not want to read the characterization, don't bother. Nobody is forcing you to look at them.     

Again, more truth here.  But out of fairness, I have stated time and again that all characters should be able to flow with the rest of the party.  There have been stumbling blocks along the way, but I think that everyone here has at least attempted to be able to flow well enough together.  As one of the newest men in the party, Corg, the onus is partially on you to fit yourself in and flow with everyone else.  All characters, and the people who play them, have flaws.  Being able to game with those people and have your character work with their characters is a hallmark of a good RP'er.

In Az's defense, I do not believe that he's told anyone how to write and play their characters.  From his comment there, I feel that he was talking about the wall-o-text posts that end up happening in here that get everyone riled up.  I do take suggestions on improving or nerfing people's characters, or correcting the writing style of someone, but in the end, I'm the GM here.

IN CONCLUSION! (Because I realize your dislike of reading long posts in Rps.) You might consider this a personal attack Azlan. Personally, I think of it as something of a rebuke. I find your tone offensive, your arguments specious, your stance domineering aggressive, and deliberately insulting  towards all players who aren't willing to let your character be an epitome of perfection. I for one, have been profoundly less than impressed by your views, and wish to make it known that you are not the DM, and do not set the tone. If Ryudo, or any other DM wishes to adopt your views, that is one thing, but you are not the speaker for the throne.

First off, I would appreciate it if we keep any perceived personal attacks to a bare minimum.  The drama should be IC, not OOC.  I mean, it is rather common sense that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.  I'm here to handle complaints, as I've done in the past, and I would prefer it that if a problem has cropped up, drop me a PM.  I check them almost daily.  Venting out here where everyone can see it makes containment of the problem far more difficult than it should be.

Secondly, I do not (and I should hope that other GM's do this too) adopt the views of other people, especially not those of just a single person.  I want everyone's input.  I take all these suggestions from everyone so that I can make the best decision possible and incorporate the ones I think are the fairest for everyone into the system and hope for the best.  If the majority of people are in agreement on a suggestion, then it should work out.

Speaking as a moderator I can't say I'm particularly pleased with the way this is going.  It could be a lot more civil.  I suspect llearch is following this too, but either way if it gets out of hand - and in my opinion it is getting dangerously close to that point - I will flag this thread with the rest of the team.

The very last thing that I want is for this to become so much of a problem that the mods have to get involved.  So I would prefer (and appreciate) it if people route their game-related problems directly to me, rather than plastering them up here for everyone to see.  We've done this in the past, and those problems that got PM'd to me were more or less resolved.  I know that people get upset sometimes, it's human nature.  But everyone should make an effort to handle things in a civil manner.  This is a game, after all.

...

And so it is perhaps better if we impose a limit on posting per cycle.  This would cause the story to move incredibly fast (faster than I had planned) and at the same time, cause a bottleneck when people who are expected to post, don't.  How do we combat these problems?  We need something that would keep the story moving at the pace I want it to move, prevent the "absent poster" bottleneck, and keep everyone marginally happy enough.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

FWIW - Yes, I'm watching. As with Tapewolf, though, I don't think I need to step in. You lot are all reasonable people, and managed to sort it out between yourselves. I'm willing to grant you some more slack to get it all settled down, if you need it - it looks like you're pretty well done, though.

Not that I was planning on jumping in, mind. At least, not unless things change...

[Ryudo Lee]

Sorry guys, I've been pretty slammed at work, trying to do ten things at once to keep people happy.  I'll try and toss something up soon to get things moving along again.

[Azlan]

Ryudo, we need some intel.  The briefings should include this if it is known.

General knowledge we should have:
Basic Brotherhood tactics as should have been explained on our first day with Rebellion.  Are they known to para-drop or helicopter in?  Do they operate Close-air support or strategic air support?  Do they employ AWACS/AEW&C?  Do they employ Ranger/Green Beret style special forces, or any Special Ops?  Do they operate in a combined-arms fashion?  Are they employing mechanized infantry (conventional sense, not actual mecha) or do they operate actual mechanized robot armors?  Conventional Armor (tanks)?  Do they utilize centralized command & control while in the field or is it all remote ops?  How do they get to and from a theater of operation from local ops to global.

Important question: If any of those are true, will any of them be employed in an operation considered this small?

Justification for this knowledge: The Rebellion should have tactical analysts and extensive recon.  Additionally, even the most remote guerrilla fighters know how large military forces tend to operate (the Afghan guerrilla forces understood how the Soviet warmachine tended to operate and even how the US military tends to deploy.  Individual strategies can vary during operations, but one has to have talented and original tacticians for that.)


For this mission:
Suspected location of Brotherhood facility in the area, or closest base, and type of assets it can deploy.  Does it have helio pads or an airstrip?  What are the expected routes of Brotherhood incursion?  Where are the civilian dangers going to be located?

[Azlan]

I hate to double post, but...

Just a notification: Due to the passing of my Grandmother, I will likely be out of contact with the internet from Monday August 17th through Thursday August 27th.  I will be traveling to the island of Kauai in Hawaii and I am not sure of my internet availability in these areas. 

[Ryudo Lee]

General knowledge we should have:
Basic Brotherhood tactics as should have been explained on our first day with Rebellion.  Are they known to para-drop or helicopter in?  Do they operate Close-air support or strategic air support?  Do they employ AWACS/AEW&C?

Okay, here's the thing about any kind of air support or combat.  You all haven't been seeing air vehicles on either side for a reason.  The reason, and this is common knowledge, that the majority of the airspace is government domain.  The Brotherhood may have their hooks in the government, but airspace is one thing that they can't seem to get a hold of.  The government has basically told the Brotherhood, and the rebellion too, that if anyone invades their airspace, all bets are off and the military will come down hard.  They're only holding back because of the Brotherhood's influence, but airspace is one thing the government is holding onto tightly.  There is a reason for this that may or may not become apparent in the future.

Do they employ Ranger/Green Beret style special forces, or any Special Ops?  Do they operate in a combined-arms fashion?

Yes, but you haven't run into those yet.  See the Brotherhood Lore section for tidbits on that.

Are they employing mechanized infantry (conventional sense, not actual mecha) or do they operate actual mechanized robot armors?  Conventional Armor (tanks)?

As you've already seen, they do employ various versions of Exo, and do have armored vehicles.  You'll run into more later.  Thank you for reminding me about that.

Do they utilize centralized command & control while in the field or is it all remote ops?  How do they get to and from a theater of operation from local ops to global.

This, you don't have details on yet.  You will get details after this current set of missions after the rebellion has had time to analyze what you brought back from the last mission.

Important question: If any of those are true, will any of them be employed in an operation considered this small?

I really should say "find out in play" but it would be reasonable to assume that they might have a light armored vehicle or two heading your way, if that, along with a group of soldiers.

Justification for this knowledge: The Rebellion should have tactical analysts and extensive recon.  Additionally, even the most remote guerrilla fighters know how large military forces tend to operate (the Afghan guerrilla forces understood how the Soviet warmachine tended to operate and even how the US military tends to deploy.  Individual strategies can vary during operations, but one has to have talented and original tacticians for that.)

The rebellion has limited intelligence, even with their few spies in place.  They've been focusing on fighting more than intelligence.  Since your group has come in, more and more information is coming through.  This is part of your role: to gain as much intelligence as possible on the Brotherhood.

For this mission:
Suspected location of Brotherhood facility in the area, or closest base, and type of assets it can deploy.  Does it have helio pads or an airstrip?  What are the expected routes of Brotherhood incursion?  Where are the civilian dangers going to be located?

This is unknown as there is no tower in the immediate vicinity.  All will be made clear eventually.

[Azlan]

The rebellion has limited intelligence, even with their few spies in place.  They've been focusing on fighting more than intelligence.  Since your group has come in, more and more information is coming through.  This is part of your role: to gain as much intelligence as possible on the Brotherhood.

Not spies so much as strategists and tacticians that spend time analyzing mission data from operations against the Brotherhood.  You don't need spies among their ranks to take mission reports from field operations and review them, as well as debriefing tactical leaders, to analyze field based tactics for the Brotherhood.  The Rebellion should have some of these and have enough data to grant us a tactical forecast.

This is unknown as there is no tower in the immediate vicinity.  All will be made clear eventually.

What about the location of non-aligned civilians settlements. 

[Ryudo Lee]

Not spies so much as strategists and tacticians that spend time analyzing mission data from operations against the Brotherhood.  You don't need spies among their ranks to take mission reports from field operations and review them, as well as debriefing tactical leaders, to analyze field based tactics for the Brotherhood.  The Rebellion should have some of these and have enough data to grant us a tactical forecast.

Really, what you've already seen is what the Rebellion already knows.  You know as much as they do and you're asking the same questions the Rebellion is asking and the response is for you to go and find out.  You're not just a random strike force, you're a team dedicated to learning as much about the Brotherhood as possible and answering these questions.

What about the location of non-aligned civilians settlements. 

I'll refer you back to the first paragraph of my IC post of the travelling scene.
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,5794.msg290459.html#msg290459
In short, you passed a bunch of burnt settlements and villages.  It's a fair assumption that the Brotherhood isn't using them as outposts.

[Azlan]

...an indignant snort and ignorage.

"I do not think it means what you think it means."

~Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

It seems reasonably consistent with the sort of interaction displayed so far.

[Tapewolf]

It seems reasonably consistent with the sort of interaction displayed so far.

I can't speak for Azlan, but for me, I think it's something to do with the fact that you chose a savage for your character, rather than anything you're doing per se.  It's not really something I'm consciously doing - I guess my hindbrain must be prejudiced or something.

On a slightly more conscious level, I do keep finding myself thinking "What skills has he got?  What can we trust him to do?" - because although you can take a reasonable guess at someone who was raised in or has lived through a high-tech setting, a neo-savage is something else.
And yes, while I know that he's reasonably capable, Dorcan doesn't.  Though maybe he should just ask.

Anyway, that's the problem I seem to be having - it's not something I'm doing intentionally.  And of course, I can't speak for anyone else...

**EDIT**

On a completely different topic, did we bring explosives?

[Ryudo Lee]

Did anyone ask for explosives?

[Tapewolf]

Did anyone ask for explosives?

Yes.

Apparently the answer was: "....you don't get high explosives until the demo team certifies that you're smart enough to not blow yourself to kingdom come.  That goes for artillery too.  You can have frag grenades, flashbangs, smoke bombs, and tear gas."

...That might just about work for the sort of use Dorcan is contemplating, but it's not ideal.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

It seems reasonably consistent with the sort of interaction displayed so far.

I can't speak for Azlan, but for me, I think it's something to do with the fact that you chose a savage for your character, rather than anything you're doing per se.  It's not really something I'm consciously doing - I guess my hindbrain must be prejudiced or something.

On a slightly more conscious level, I do keep finding myself thinking "What skills has he got?  What can we trust him to do?" - because although you can take a reasonable guess at someone who was raised in or has lived through a high-tech setting, a neo-savage is something else.
And yes, while I know that he's reasonably capable, Dorcan doesn't.  Though maybe he should just ask.

Anyway, that's the problem I seem to be having - it's not something I'm doing intentionally.  And of course, I can't speak for anyone else...

*I* don't mind how you treat Fetrethar. Fet does. Quite honestly, I'm surprised you trust him as much as you do, and so is my character. But I write out of Fet's perceptions, not mine.

Please, don't break character just to assuage my ego.

[Tapewolf]

*I* don't mind how you treat Fetrethar. Fet does.

Okay, noted.

Quite honestly, I'm surprised you trust him as much as you do, and so is my character. But I write out of Fet's perceptions, not mine.   Please, don't break character just to assuage my ego.

Oh, I think it's well within character.  Dorcan just prefers it when people are happy.

[Ryudo Lee]

If you asked for grenades, you have grenades.

[Ryudo Lee]

Sorry for the double post, but I need to bump this for a notification.

I've been sick lately, which is why I've been lacking in my responses.  I'm feeling a bit better, but lacking the mental energy to provide this game (and other projects of mine) the attention it needs.  As soon as I'm personally back up to snuff, I'll get things moving again.

[Tapewolf]

I've been sick lately, which is why I've been lacking in my responses.  I'm feeling a bit better, but lacking the mental energy to provide this game (and other projects of mine) the attention it needs.  As soon as I'm personally back up to snuff, I'll get things moving again.

Take your time.

In the meantime, does anyone object to Dorcan being the go-between between the rebels and the archaeologists?  If not I'll move him there.

[Azlan]

Sorry for the double post, but I need to bump this for a notification.

I've been sick lately, which is why I've been lacking in my responses.  I'm feeling a bit better, but lacking the mental energy to provide this game (and other projects of mine) the attention it needs.  As soon as I'm personally back up to snuff, I'll get things moving again.

Indeed, take your time.

[techmaster-glitch]

   Man, I left this thread for far too long, and I don't even know why I didn't respond earlier. So I had to make up some excuses as to why Jexx didn't jump at the scouting mission .

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

Just giving notice. I will be offline during Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, (Evening of the 18th to the evening of the 20th, and the evening of the 27th to the evening of the 28th respectively; all times eastern standard). I hope this will not inconvenience the RP too seriously.

[Tapewolf]

Are we stalled on anyone in particular, or still waiting for Ryudo to recover?

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

I'm good to go, except on the 28th.

[Ryudo Lee]

I was waiting to give everyone a chance to post... then I got hit by RL issues again.

I haven't forgotten about you guys though.  I've got something big planned for this, something I hope you all will enjoy.  If no one else wants to post something, then I will continue.

[Ryudo Lee]

Sorry for the double post bump...

I think I've waited long enough for everyone to get a post in.  The last IC post was on the 18th, it is now the 30th.  If you wanted to put something down, speak now or forever hold your piece.

[Tapewolf]

I concur.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

I'm all ready. Let's roll.