The Great "Beat the Amber Hardware Issues to Death" Thread (split)

[Gornemant]

that could work too, though I admit I have absolutely no clue on how ressource hungry photoshop actually is, just went for good image quality in general with the cheapest thing you could get on pci-e 
then again it all depends on what motherboard cpu combination you go for, since you can also get an nforce4 board for 35$   


mmmm I love wasting time like this when we bloody well know what will happen anyway 

[Cvstos]

Well, the 939 was just an example.  For the budget-conscience, the 939 platform is a good buy.  Strong performance, the nForce 4 939 boards are very good in general (especially ASUS boards), and it can be had for a very low cost right now!  Plus, DDR-400 memory (which it uses) is also inexpensive compared to DDR-667 and DDR-800.  All-around a great purchase for the budget-minded.  Check it out:

AMD Athlon-64 X2 4200+... $200 on NewEgg
ASUS A8N5X nForce 4 PCI-Express Motherboard... $85 on NewEgg
CORSAIR XMS 1GB (512x2) DDR-400 RAM... $100 on New Egg
XFX GeForce 6800XT 128MB 256-bit GDDR3 (PCI Express x16) GPU... $100 on New Egg
Antec TruePower II 550W PSU... $90 on NewEgg

Those should be all the bits Amber needs for a new machine, and the price tag is under $600 (not including shipping).  And those specs are pretty awesome in general!  Add another $130 for a completely optional new 300GB HDD and DVD Burner (and/or about $100 for a basic case, if needed, but if the old one is standard ATX mid-tower there should be no problems).  You can get a NEC DVD-Burner by itself for around $30.

So even if you added all that up... $825 or so.  Not bad at all!  Not nearly as much as the $1500 system, and it doesn't sacrifice that much performance, especially for what Amber wants to do.  Keep in mind that the 939 platform will start to fade away, so in a couple years it'll be harder to get new parts.  But still, that's a damn good system for under $1000.  It would be very hard to get that much bang for your buck from a retail outlet!

Azlan: Integrated graphics can sometimes have a hard time dealing with higher resolution monitors, if Amber ever decides to get one or has one now.  I like to stick with good, solid GPUs just in case, and because eventually Vista will come out, and when an upgrade is needed you'll be glad you have the extra bit of horsepower.  Also, she mentioned a game (Baldur's Gate).  I don't care what game it is or how old, integrated graphics can kill that deal.  I've known them to completely screw up even very old games simply because they're, well, terrible.  Trust me, I've got a lot of friends who try to play even old games on them and... it's not pretty at all.  In fact, even super-cheap stuff like the PCI-Express X300 can fall flat on their face when faced with a game.  Even worse than, say, a budget 9600 AGP card being faced with F.E.A.R.  They just aren't really designed for it.  The 6800 I mentioned above is more power than absolutely necessary, but it was something I saw right away and had a good price/performance ratio.  I also saw some 6600s that were cheaper, and some that were more costly, but brand is also important.  BFG, EVGA, and XFX have proven themselves in my observations.  Obviously, nothing is foolproof, but I also see major problems with some other brands from time to time.  (Avoid Foxconn like the plague.)

I work at a video game store, and we get a lot of people trying to return PC games because they found out they have integrated graphics.  (Unfortunately, once it's opened it's exchange for same item only.)  They just don't read the system requirements, and nearly all of them demand a real GPU. A good number of them will not support integrated graphics, regardless of whether it's "theoretically" capable of running the game given it's specifications.  A lot of people even get upset at me when I tell them that their PC simply won't run it because of that, and learn the hard way.  I can't count how many have come back trying to return the game after that.  It's especially common at Christmas, where we also get questions like "I'm looking for the Nintendo Playbox, do you have any?". 

I should also mention I've seen many nightmares due to Intel's very poor drivers for their integrated graphics.  ATi and nVIDIA both have vastly superior and more stable drivers (nVIDIA being the better of the two on that note, in my opinion, especially if you run more than one monitor).

[Gornemant]

Well, the 939 was just an example.  For the budget-conscience, the 939 platform is a good buy.  Strong performance, the nForce 4 939 boards are very good in general (especially ASUS boards), and it can be had for a very low cost right now!  Plus, DDR-400 memory (which it uses) is also inexpensive compared to DDR-667 and DDR-800.  All-around a great purchase for the budget-minded.  Check it out:

AMD Athlon-64 X2 4200+... $200 on NewEgg
ASUS A8N5X nForce 4 PCI-Express Motherboard... $85 on NewEgg
CORSAIR XMS 1GB (512x2) DDR-400 RAM... $100 on New Egg
XFX GeForce 6800XT 128MB 256-bit GDDR3 (PCI Express x16) GPU... $100 on New Egg
Antec TruePower II 550W PSU... $90 on NewEgg

Those should be all the bits Amber needs for a new machine, and the price tag is under $600 (not including shipping).  And those specs are pretty awesome in general!  Add another $130 for a completely optional new 300GB HDD and DVD Burner (and/or about $100 for a basic case, if needed, but if the old one is standard ATX mid-tower there should be no problems).  You can get a NEC DVD-Burner by itself for around $30.

.... seriously... you are going waaaaaay too high, remember? not a game rig, take in consideration that she _might_ need another monitor as well, and by that I don't meen a 21" flat screen 8ms etc. either
seriously, X2 4200+? 3000+ venice core for 77$ at most, that's by not going the sempron/celeron kinda road
asus, overrated. random ECS motherboard nforce4: 35$
Kingston value ram also 1gb dual, 86$
.... 30$/45$
550W, what for?
from 575$ down to around 250-300$, and you could go down even further, you really gotta get that "Vista compatible" out of your head.

edit: as for games, try UT on an ati 128pro, runs perfectly in 800*600 resolution mid/high details. as for baldur's gate, if it's the first one she's talking about, 200mhz 32MB ram 4MB SVGA, and that's the recommended specs. BD2, 266Mhz Pentium2 64MB ram and 4MB SVGA card, recommended.
please get Vista and Halo out of your head....

[Azlan]

Cvstos: I agree on integrated graphics, but I was just considering stripped down, rock bottom cheap.  You really must remove the gamestore mentality though, we aren't considering entry-level and low-end gaming rigs here.  We can do a lot better moving beyond that concept and try to shoot for more value... Gorn covered a few less cost alternatives, so I can skip that... yay! 

Don't worry so much about 'Vista compatible', I have a whole set of words for Microsoft... but I'll save them for somewhere else. 

[Cvstos]

A lot of that is just what popped out.  Photoshop runs very nice on dual cores, and as for the motherboard... I disagree completely, in my opinion ASUS is definitely the way to go.  I've been through a large number of boards, and nothing ran like my old ASUS board.  The MSI I have now isn't bad but it has it's random problems that just shouldn't happen.

Solid RAM is also important to stability.  Cheap RAM can lead to crashes.  I don't care if you're gaming or not, crashes aren't fun.  The XMS isn't 100% necessary, though, I admit.  It just showed up first.  In general, Corsair and Crucial are great brands and any memory from them should run just fine.  Get at least 1GB for Photoshop if nothing else.  Trust me on this one, the difference in Windows alone between 512MB and 1GB is very big.  2GB would be even better, but optional.

The new PSU is if you're moving from a AGP to PCI Express system, which is likely.  You can go lower or with any number of others for the systems we're talking about, but again that's just a PSU that jumped out at me quickly and should run anything you choose to throw at it, and it's got a good price tag.  (I should mention to watch for the motherboard connector.  Make certain it'll run what you need.  A PSU that has a 24-pin connection with a breakaway cable to support 20-pin is a good idea, as you'll be ready for anything then.)

UT and the Rage were made in what, 2001?   Unreal, the engine UT was based on, was even older.  If you really want to get a cheap GPU, a minimal 6200 based on PCI-Express is recommended.  Also, if you are running dual monitors or plan to, trust me and get an nVIDIA board.  ATi's dual-monitor implementation is terrible.  I've got a friend who's had no end of trouble with it, and try as I might, I can't find a solution.

[Gornemant]

Cvstos: I agree on integrated graphics, but I was just considering stripped down, rock bottom cheap.  You really must remove the gamestore mentality though, we aren't considering entry-level and low-end gaming rigs here.  We can do a lot better moving beyond that concept and try to shoot for more value...

dito, though I didn't went for integrated because most AMD based motherboards with integrated graphics tend to cost more than basic motherboards with additional Gcard. 

[Cvstos]

Gorn: That's true, too.  Even Intel boards can get pricey with that.  Why bother with integrated graphics when you can get a vastly superior solution for less?

I think just about all nForce 4 boards are PCI-Express, if not all of them.  If that's the case, a new PSU and GPU will be needed.  Doesn't have to be super-powered, but needed all the same.  And in general I recommend nForce boards.  The chipset is very, very good.  Very stable.

Warning: I made a typo and said "new PSU and CPU".  While that's likely to be true here, I meant GPU, as they're the focus of the discussion.  Sorry 'bout that.

[Azlan]

dito, though I didn't went for integrated because most AMD based motherboards with integrated graphics tend to cost more than basic motherboards with additional Gcard. 

True, true.  I'm so used to purchasing prebuilt systems with basic hardware for our contract and the integrated packages tend to be far cheaper.  No expansion cards at all, integrated graphics (usually losy S3), integrated sound and integrated NIC.  Then again these are Intel based systems... and its what the government decided to buy.  I'm also seeing a significant bulk discount, so my views on that are somewhat biased.  Probably best to opt for a cheap graphics card.

[Sid]

I'm not quite sure where you guys go shopping for motherboards and stuff, but I recently (almost two months ago) got a board with integrated graphics (and 7.1 sound and LAN and what-else-not), 512 megs and a Sempron 3000+ for roughly 200 bucks total. Granted, that was a budget solution (pretty much the lowest-level solution I could find in that store since my old work computer semi-broke), but it was a ton of improvement over my old computer (1800+ AMD) and runs just fine. O_o;;;

Then again, I'm not quite sure what graphics cards cost nowadays...

[Gornemant]

A lot of that is just what popped out.  Photoshop runs very nice on dual cores, and as for the motherboard... I disagree completely, in my opinion ASUS is definitely the way to go.  I've been through a large number of boards, and nothing ran like my old ASUS board.  The MSI I have now isn't bad but it has it's random problems that just shouldn't happen.

Solid RAM is also important to stability.  Cheap RAM can lead to crashes.  I don't care if you're gaming or not, crashes aren't fun.  The XMS isn't 100% necessary, though, I admit.  It just showed up first.  In general, Corsair and Crucial are great brands and any memory from them should run just fine.  Get at least 1GB for Photoshop if nothing else.  Trust me on this one, the difference in Windows alone between 512MB and 1GB is very big.  2GB would be even better, but optional.

The new PSU is if you're moving from a AGP to PCI Express system, which is likely.  You can go lower or with any number of others for the systems we're talking about, but again that's just a PSU that jumped out at me quickly and should run anything you choose to throw at it, and it's got a good price tag.

UT and the Rage were made in what, 2001?   Unreal, the engine UT was based on, was even older.  If you really want to get a cheap GPU, a minimal 6200 based on PCI-Express is recommended.  Also, if you are running dual monitors or plan to, trust me and get an nVIDIA board.  ATi's dual-monitor implementation is terrible.  I've got a friend who's had no end of trouble with it, and try as I might, I can't find a solution.

*sigh* if you want to go the personal experience and lots of people complaining about asus having random problems, go ahead, I could go on for ages...

true, but corsair? kingston value works fine too.

you don't need more than 400W unless you have a dozen hard drives, sli cards, neons, 50 fans and internal lazer light show...

never had a problem with dual monitors, because I only have one... and the ones at work always worked perfectly fine, all 500+ of them... and image quality remember? not useless additional features.
6200 for what? again, what games need a 6200? You said old games, I took an old game, quake3 also runs perfectly with a 128pro and a P3 800mhz. if you want me to compare to slightly never hardware, I can easilly make UT2k3 and battlefield1942 run on a 1,5ghz with 512MB ram and a 9700 or less...

Sid: only did a quick check on newegg.com, didn't go really far ;-P (and I said I didn't check the semprons yet X-3 )

[Cvstos]

S3?  Man, I'm surprised they're still around!     I'll always remember them as the company to produce the first graphics decelerator!   

But yeah, in general when building yourself, it's always best to get a real GPU, even if it's not a performance one.  The integrated graphics are more trouble than they're worth, and when building the machien yourself they're often more expensive than a real solution anyway.

Sid: NewEgg.com is still the best around, IMO.    Looks like we're all using it today.

Gorn: 400W is fine, too, again, that's just something that jumped out at me quickly. A lot of 400Ws are in that same ballpark price range, though, so I just went for the 550W as a good deal, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

Most of the nForce 4 boards are PCI-Express, so 6200 is about the ballpark starting models for that bus.  For AGP you can get away with a GeForce 5 series that'll be even cheaper.  I cannot, in good conscious, recommend an ATi Rage 128.  Seriously, it appears that ATi doesn't even support those anymore, with the last new driver release being late 2005.  Keep with the GF5 and Radeon 9XXX series or higher to ensure continued driver support.  A 9700 is perfectly fine for AGP, although I know several people (myself included) that had their 9800's and 9700's fans die on them...  That wasn't fun.  It's why a GeForce 5 series is what I'd lean towards for AGP, even though the Radeon 9-series is faster.

That being said, Sid pointed out that Amber said she wanted to take some of that money and build a higher-end machine, not the super-cheap stuff like we're starting to get into.  At that point, what I originally looked at (the $850) machine is, again, a pretty good all-around machine for a good price, and can be had for slightly less or slightly more depending on how you flex stuff in certain directions.  Even leaves some left over for a new monitor, although artists don't often part with CRTs for LCDs.  CRTs produce accurate colors, and LCDs don't. 

The GPU can be dropped down a bit, but for PCI-Express I recommend at least a 6200, and it's hard to get slower than that for that bus.  And Photoshop is very processor and RAM intensive, so a lot there will go a long way.

[Gornemant]

the rage128 pro was an example that you don't need a powerfull graphic card, heck I bought that one like 7 years ago 
and UT is 99 from modified unreal engine (does not mean that it's the same engine, remember that HL is a modified quake2 engine?)


note: that's why I didn't go for semprons, but still, a venice 3000+ is perfectly fine, heck my game rig still has a 3200+, and I doubt photoshop is more ressource hungry than battlefield2 or forgotten hope 

[Vidar]

Cvstos: I agree on integrated graphics, but I was just considering stripped down, rock bottom cheap.  You really must remove the gamestore mentality though, we aren't considering entry-level and low-end gaming rigs here.  We can do a lot better moving beyond that concept and try to shoot for more value...

dito, though I didn't went for integrated because most AMD based motherboards with integrated graphics tend to cost more than basic motherboards with additional Gcard. 

And they eat up a significant portion of the system RAM,
And their performance is best described as 'glacial'.
Integrated graphics is the new evil of this world.

[Aridas]

Oh wow, I just found something that covers all the bases of Amber's base needs and then some. Not sure if it's a good deal or not yet, since i'm still on last month's prices.

Just needs Windows and it's ready to go. And assembly. but I assume people read that stuff beforehand.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=2353710

[Rowne]

Oblivion rocks. shaddup ;_;

To each their own.  ;p

In my opinion, it rocks only in comparison to what it's compared to, if you compare it to a very fleshed out game like Ultima VII or Gothic, it's not all that good.  However, if you've never played some of the better freeform RPGs to grace the PC, I guess Gothic's okay.  I just have the opinion that I've played better.  Much better.  I don't know what all the fuss is about.  *Sheepish.*

---- Edit

Okay, I will give you this; the modding is fun.  It was better in Morrowind to be honest but it's still fun.  I have one fond memory of where I went and slew a bunch of Ogres with a spoon, that was grand.  Still, the game should be fun in and of itself.

[Amber Williams]

Well so far we got one thing decided:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811147040

Trying to pick a case that A) wasn't $100+ B)had a good enough quality C)didnt have those annoying side panels that let you see into them D)wasn't distracting but still nice to look at E)was compatable for what will be added inside F)Looked pretty...was a lot more annoying than I expected.

Apparently the colour purple is a strange and unheard of colour in terms of PC cases.

Anyways...will prolly get the rundown of hardware and costs tonight.  Wee~

[xHaZxMaTx]

NewEgg for t3h win!   BTW, nice case, visually and performance wise.

[Azlan]

The case looks acceptable for air flow and the claw is a nice touch. 

You'd have to get a custom case, or paint it yourself to get purple... Beige and black are standard, with silver and straight metal coming in second.

[Sid]

Apparently the colour purple is a strange and unheard of colour in terms of PC cases.

Knowing the loyal forum peeps, it should only be a matter of time before somebody helps you build a proper Mowputer. Either they'll send you glue-on covers made from LEGO or they'll... I dunno... knit something.

[rt]

Apparently the colour purple is a strange and unheard of colour in terms of PC cases

Well there is always primer and mow purple paint (suitable for metal for the sides, and usually platic on the front i'd guess). Someone who mods their cases could likely tell you alot more

[edit: doh azan already pointed that out]

One part down, lots to go. Mabye it is good you are getting a new computer, new egg doesn't like Canadians last i checked (doesn't ship there)

[Nex]

I personally don't trust Newegg. I can find better prices and a better selection at Tigerdirect.com. I constantly compare the two websites when I'm looking into an item, and Tigerdirect is always the lower price. It may not be by much, but every single dollar counts.

That case is a very nice one, imo. Like Azlan said, very nice air flow. As for motherboards, there isn't really a "must have" brand. It runs like this: ALL Computer Hardware is esentially made by only 3 companies. It's the software integration that all these distributors come up with. Cvstos was right, however, in recommending an ASUS motherboard. They are a solid company with very nice hardware. for the CPU... Dual-Core is starting to become mainstream, but not by much. Hyper-Threading will still be around for another year or so, but I would recommend going for the Dual-Core now and just save yourself the trouble later in life.

Power Supply I'm going to recommend 400W+. No question about it. This day and age anything below that won't cut it. My brother had this problem with his video card, and it wasn't pretty. Sound Card I would recommend a 24-Bit Soundblaster Live! PCI-Slotted. Low Price and still very stable. I wouldn't trade it for anything else. Hard Drives should come simple. They're becoming cheaper by the week. CD/DVD Drives, aren't really much of an issue with Brand-Types. I use an I/O Magic Internal DVD/CD Player/Burner. I would recommend an internal drive. Too many things can go wrong with external ones.

Video Cards, there's too many to choose. I currently use a eVGA Geforce 6800 GS with Copper Heatsink. I haven't been disappointed at all, though the new 7800 models are becoming more affordable. My only advice on this is these things:

1: if you're going Geforce, get the GS models. They are the most stable in all of them.
2: Anything above $300 isn't worth it. You'll enjoy it in the short run, but weep in the long run as a shiney $560 Video card becomes outdated in 2-3 years.
3: Make sure it's 256MB or above. This one I really can't stress enough. Video Memory is very important.

I've really got nothing else to add, really. Bulding a computer is very specific, but also very out-in-the-open. That's the beauty of it all.

[Vidar]

3: Make sure it's 256MB or above. This one I really can't stress enough. Video Memory is very important for games.

Fixed.

For browsing and other normal day-to-day operations you don't need gigabytes of video-ram.
For things like Oblivion, you want the biggest monster of a video-card you can afford (and then some).

Nice case, Amber.

[xHaZxMaTx]

Amber, you said you weren't going to be building a 'high-end' PC, right?  Just enough to get things done, so don't listen to these people, they're all suggesting expensive stuff you don't need.   Photoshop is a demanding program, but I don't think a good graphics card is going to make it run much, if any better.  For what you're doing, on-board video will probably work just as fine.  As for processing power, I probably wouldn't even suggest a 64-bit unless you weren't planning on upgrading for another few years.  Dual core is just over-kill.  Though you may want a fair amount of memory, I would suggest 768MB-1.25GB.  As for what company you get your products from, it really doesn't matter that much, I've never had any problems with any of the equipment I've bought, and it's varied from pretty much every major company.  A good, suitable PC shouldn't be over $800.

[Gornemant]

I used newegg because that's the first site I was pointed to when I said "hey I don't know any site selling computer stuff in the USA, hint?"
true, 64 is not needed, though I wouldn't touch the slightly older than venice core AMD models, because frankly those are worse than an atomic powerpland with a failed cooling system (woooo cooking at 70°C and up!  ), and venice are way more reliable, are low consumption and easily kept cool with the bulked heatsink (which is actually pretty good), the 3000+ being only 37$ more than the duron 1,8Ghz and 26$ more than the cheapest sempron, and imo better have a bigger L2 cache than an overpowered sempron since she will most likely work with high resolution pictures.

For the hard drive, I can only recommend some of the latest SATA models from Western Digital (if you go for a new motherboard with this option), they keep cool, are reliable and pretty quiet, good performance too. There's a 250GB for 80$ already. Wouldn't touch Maxtor and Hitachi, only because I kinda stopped counting how many I had to replace because of a hardware failure on Dell computers...

[Aridas]

I still think Amber should grab that thing I found. It might actually outlast everything, price-wise.

And Gorn, about that Maxtor thing, maybe that's a problem with what Dell puts in there. I've never had any drives fail on me (and I carry tons of em..) Maxtor never let me down before, so I think it's either Dell's fault or the conditions inside the case that kill em.

[Gornemant]

the only maxtor I bought for me died after two years. The Dell models that had the most failures were the GX260, 270 and 280 (can't tell about never models since I left before we got the new ones), out of the 3'000+ computers during the two years I worked there, at least 100-150 HDD died, not crashed, died, mostly the mechanical interns. Granted, some of those computers ran on a 24/7 basis (what do you expect from a research center) and the GX270/280 tend to overheat, overheating also caused by the HDD (hot hard drive = bad).
Western Digital has proven itself very reliable with generally good performance in the later models, as well as pretty cool.

[Jack McSlay]

...Baldur's Gate...

Soon, you will crave more freeform-RPG's then Black Isle has made, and then you go to Morrowind, and from there, there is only Oblivion. And Oblivion will bring your computer to its knees.
Then, you will crave the MHz, the GB's, the $800 video-cards, the SLI (or Crossfire). You will lament the power-consumption. You will crave more performence. Soon, you will crave shiney-ness, and lights, and L33t-ness.

if it's to play Oblivion, I don't see the point of spending 800 on a video card when you can buy a X360 for 400... then again I see no point of putting a high investment on graphical power considering she said she'd play one or two games

besides, with Amber needing money for the Canada move, I think how many games the PC will play are secondary.
my suggestion would be to invest on the best desktop motherboard with integrated graphics card yet PCI-E and/or AGP ports for use in a new GFX card, a decent processor, a good amount of ram, an average hd, and a DVD-RW burner

something like
Semprom 3100
512GB RAM
Hd 80GB
DVD-RW burner
and make sure the motherboard is expansible to
AMD64 processor
2GB+ ram
SATA HDs, 300GB+
AGP or PCI-Express video card

that should be cheap enough yet work for what Amber wants, still being expansible for the case one day Amber decides to play PC games on the level of Crisys

[Aridas]

Heat will kill any hard drive. I don't think there should be bias because of bad cooling. Speaking of which, hard drive coolers exist too. The problem is half the time you can't attach them due to a lack of room.

[Azlan]

Maxtor drives are very bad, the greater the size the more likely they fail in my experience.  I've spent far too much time replacing them in our systems at my work.  Seagate and Western Digital are the drives I've had the best experience with, and WD is the brand I'm currently using.  Stay away from fujitsu too.  I recommend moving away from AGP as it is on the way out, the performance considerations are not the issue here... it's just that the technology is on its way out. 

Did you know AMD has acquired ATI?  I forsee good things.

[Cvstos]

I can't speak for their reliability personally yet, but Samsung drives have been getting good press lately.  I recently picked up a 300GB Samsung drive.  The one HDD I've ever had fail was a Maxtor.

Amber: Finding a case with those requirements can be tough.  Believe me, I've tried.  Tough but possible.  I was going to point out this one as a possibility:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811129155

It's just over $100 but includes a 450W PSU.

The case I want is over $200, a full ATX tower.  Obviously not what you need, it's just something I want someday.    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811119103