The Line in the Stars (OOC) [PG/14] - Closed

[Lushin]

Ok dude you need to look earlier in this thread. I've made most of this team. Everyone in my team is made by me. Everyone in Ben's team is made by Azlan. A good soldier will follow orders if they make sense, right now it just seems like you are getting a big head about this. This type of thing will happen with experyenced solders. You are adding to the mission, actually this isn't a military mission. We are doing this cause of Anna so if you want to pull rank and be a dick because what you want to have happen isn't, Romulus will basically tell you. He has a life time of experience. He has been workinig in a military way since he was a little boy thanks to his father. I don't think you looked back at some of the character sheets when you joined. I've even said Romulus has issues with people who are higher rank than him but he doesn't feel they deserves it. You're right though Azlan's in charge so it's his ruling.

[Lisky]

no, Knight isn't getting a big head about this... not really... allow me to explain Knight's perspective, and not just the here and now...

In 5 minutes they have an OPEN AIRFIELD to cross... this means FLAT TARMAC with NO COVER... The cover that is around is going to be occupied by hostiles FIRING on the team.  Unskilled as the pirates are, they have a near insurmountable advantage should the team want to run-and-gun.  Knight is taking a SMALL risk now, to MINIMIZE the larger risk... that's what he's going for... using the pirate commander as a hostage, long enough to get out of the line of fire.

Next, let me point out that pointing a weapon at a superior officer is an offense that, if prosecuted, is going to result in a dishonorable discharge, and jail time... Rom would be kissing his future goodbye.  Shooting a superior officer is paramount to suicide, and he's not going to get away with murdering Knight, not on a ship full of psychics.

Next, the fact that Arron is the one who issued the mission, not Ana.  Given the chain of command, it DOES make this a military mission.  Pulling rank is in Knight's best interest since the whole thing is a legal military operation, created by the man in charge, Arron.

So... there goes a few points, and i add in that Knight does have experience in combat, he is a commissioned officer with a at least a moderate degree of skill, and Rom seems to be acting on pure instinct, rather than listening to Knight's arguments, which would show that Knight is planning his next 3 moves and get everyone out alive, while Rom seems to want to bust out the front door, guns blazing, and hope for the best.  So, with this in mind, (seeing as i've just explained things fron Knight's point of view) Who has the team's best interests in mind?

[Lushin]

Well Knight is not listening. Romulus is telling him what he is thinking won't work, Knight think the pirates won't shoot if we have their commander. They are not military they would have no issues with takeing out a commander. Knight is acting like he's going from a book, Romulus is telling him that doesn't work in real life. Plus you seem to think Romulus really cares about his career or his life. You really need to look at the info I provided for him. Seems like you did a bit just so you could give Knight a higher rank, but I don't think you read up on the character. Also a good soldier means he can think for himself, if he is given a order he doesn't agree with he can say he won't follow that order. You seem to have it that we won't question orders.

[Lisky]

problem is, I know what will and won't work, Knight has no such knowledge, myself and knight are 2 separate entities, Knight doesn't know all the details about Romulus like I do, as such, Knight has to approach the situation differently then I would... that's the thing... I know that it's a bad idea and yet, have to stay IN CHARACTER, IN THE ROLE.  no matter what outside information is available, Knight doesn't have that...  so, i have to go by the interactions Knight has had...

Also note that Rom is making a gut decision, he's not offering an alternative plan for crossing the airfield, nor is he explaining himself as to why he thinks the pirates will shoot their commanding officer.  He's stating something as factual when he himself has no proof other than his word, the word of someone Knight doesn't like, and therefore doesn't trust...  Knight has offered a reason as to why he's going with a plan, while Rom has thrown out nothing but "no no no no lalalala i can't hear you" and then gone so far as to threaten Knight's life, all the while doing so without making a reasonable argument as to why.  Knight can only act on what's been said and done with his interactions with Rom.

As fare as i can tell, there's no reason Knight's plan wouldn't work.  Besides stating that somehow he knows that the pirates would shoot the brains of their operation, and yet not being psychic, Rom seems to be going on gut reaction, again.  He's making a big assumption, and one that Knight isn't biting on.  Knight sees it as a small risk, with a bigger possible reward.  If you can prove otherwise, i'd like to see how...

[Lushin]

Well Romulus has been in a situation likes this multiple times and as Micheal said it was a situation much like this that got Romulus's father killed. I'm just going to wait and see what angle Azlan decides to go.

[Lisky]

*nods* for the best methinks

[SquirrelWizard]

I looked at the setup of the pirates, and I see no reason as to why Knight's plan would not work.

The pirates are set up in a military fashion. They have a clear chain of command, and it seems they respect that chain of command. Knight's interest in the commander could range from negotiating an extraction or strong arming her as a hostage. Either way it provides another option to securing the tarmac and the team's extraction.

On another note, regarding characters. While you may have introduced your squad members into the RP, they are still subject to the chain of command. That means if your superior gives them an order, they are expected to follow it. While it is fine that your character may have issues with authority, he is a member of his squad, and must operate within the squad. This means he might have to change his tactics or plans to acommadate the needs of Command (IE: dont kill her, we need her for information or as a hostage). This doesn't mean you have to like it.

You remark that a Good Soldier follows orders that he agrees with, and ignores those he doesn't. That isn't true. A good soldier follows orders in so far as they do not violate the rules of engagement or would have them knowingly putting them, or those near them, in harms way without special circumstances coming into play. This is the reason why Robert is so frustrated on the Matron. Nobody has given him a reason as to why they are ignoring protocol when it comes to breaching an unknown area, and activating the ship. He's pretty much in the dark, in a strange place, and he's not happy about it.

This brings me to another point. Insubordination.  While its fine that your character would be insubordinate, (Robert is/was at the moment) They would know that muzzling (that is the act of drawing the muzzle of your gun on a target) a friendly target is wrong. In the best of times its a sign of sloppy training, at the worst of times it will get your squadmates killed, and you courtmarshaled. If Romulus is as experienced as he says he is, then he would know this.

[ShadesFox]

*eats popcorn*

[Lushin]

All I'm gonna say is go look at the first few pages of this thread and you're figure things out. On the subject on follwoing orders if a person finds an order unfit, unjust or that it will get them killed they will not follow it. Happened during the Vietnam War. Hey Shades can I have some popcorn?

[ShadesFox]

But... it's mine.  Your'e the entertainment D:

*Throws some popcorn at you.  Uses Aaron like psionic abilities to mess with it in mid flight.*

[Azlan]

I must apologize for not seeing this sooner, a bit busy today.

I have to agree with Bas on this one on pretty much all points.  Knight is operating with the knowledge that he should only reasonably have.  The actions and disposition of Romulus prior to Knight meeting him cannot shape his actions.  Bas can read them, review the character information, and understand where you are coming from Daim... er, Lushin... but he cannot have Knight act on it.  That's metagaming, and metagaming ish bad.

Now one point in Romulus's favor is that the command structure has been rather lax since Aaron has been put in charge.  It has never been fully, definitely identified that Knight is in command of the Special Forces.  Mostly due to the unusual circumstances he came to be on this expedition.  The Scout Fleet Army commander, Colonel Jonathan Nexx, placed Aaron in command of the mission and Romulus in command of military special operations.  Granted, this was a matter of convenience to leave player characters in control rather than keep filling my bucket with NPCs.  Plus, it seemed that everyone was a little suspicious of WO Jenica Stewart... Rom's actual platoon CO.  Knight has rank, but theoretically less actual field experience than Rom.  Now Aaron has given Knight SpecFor command more or less, but I can't actually find a definite instance where he officially declared that fact or ordered Rom to acquiesce to Knight's rank and authority.  Rank speaks for itself in these cases though.

However, even granted a possible official discrepancy in the operational chain of command, it does not excuse the act of leveling one's weapon at the head of their superior officer.  I don't care what Hollywood allows one to do in their military fantasies, but it would be fully in Knight's right to have Rom shot on the spot for that.  It also does not matter how close you are with your squad mates, but none of them should back Rom in such an act.  This is one of my gripes with "team" characters from a single player.  It can be hard to separate them out individually when playing, it is a very difficult challenge.  I can see getting up and in Knight's face and having a posturing and bluster fest, testosterone flying, but there is no way Knight earned such a response.  His suggestion seems rather smart, and really does not endanger any lives.  I really am disappointed by Romulus's action in this instance, he is way out of line and his experience should have him make a better showing then this.

A soldier is expected to obey any lawful ordered issued, and they are expected to think for themselves.  An unlawful order should not be followed, but there better be a clear and fairly obvious reason why this is considered unlawful with witnesses to support that claim.   



Consider reading the posts since you arrived in the base.  I've tried to carry across a few things with these pirates.  Though a bit lax, they show organization and discipline.  Their gear is fairly standardized for what they are and their attire is... well, uniform.  These pirates all have the same basic outfit for their troopers/guards... especially when they haven't had their barracks blown up and their situation thrown into chaos.  Still at the airbase, they managed to put up a very strong resistance for a reasonably long time.  Now those were meant to be a bit more unsavory and rough, a factor of who was in charge there for the most part.  At this main base, they are a lot different and seem to have a well defined command structure.

Your previous operation went off very well, because of planning and level-headed command decisions... a lot of luck too though.  Fighting your way across a landing field is not the best choice... but I have a plan for it if you all decided to do it.  I expected a lot more time in Cynthia's care.  Just because I haven't killed a character (there was an exception), doesn't mean it won't happen.  I don't mean this as a threat, just a fact of any RPG.


So this is what I say to this.  Romulus is out of line, at this point drastically so.  Bas willing, I would suggest Lushin rewrite the bit about the gun pointing, to something a bit less than a capital offense.  If you want this to stand than we need to discuss the ramifications.

[Lisky]

I'm really fine either way, whatever Lushin decides, i can go with

[Lushin]

I will not redo the post, Knight threatened to shoot Romulus if his plan wasn't enacted. This isn't a military mission this is Anna's mission I don't care what Knight thinks. You might as well have Romulus take off with Anna and her crew or get killed. It's clear Knight and Romulus won't get along so you might as well kill him off. Stuff like this happens all the time with my RP style it seems.

[ShadesFox]

Grr, don't do this to me lucian. It will really disrupt every thing. It is a military op where the ISF is cooperating with Anna. I really don't want to start throwing people in the brig for killing each other.

[Lushin]

Sorry, it's just clear to me that Romulus and Knight can't get along. Like oil and water. Romulus doesn't believe in making plans and that's what Knight wants to do. That and Knight has the attitude of "This is my plan and we are gonna do it cause I am higher rank than you". Not a good way to inspire confidence in the troops but doesn't matter cause of rank. Just feels like "I'm right you're wrong so shut up". First real time rank is concerned with this group since they left. Also it's annoying Romulus cause this guy comes out of no where and suddenly he's supposed to follow this guy? Risk the lives of his men who he has become close friends with and this guy is decideing their fates on something he wants to do. To Romulus the mission is basicaally done they just need to get out and it feels like Knight is complicating things by dragging someone else along. But it doesn't matter cause Knight is a higher rank.

[ShadesFox]

I do agree that knight's plan sounds really dumb, and that he is being a dick about the plan and rank. But threatening to kill fellow officers is still incorrect, no matter the reason. Well, there is treason. Treason is a good reason to shoot fellow officers.  But not getting along is not treason. I'm not asking for everything to be beer and skittles, just that we can get through the mission with out fragging officers.

[SquirrelWizard]

I will not redo the post, Knight threatened to shoot Romulus if his plan wasn't enacted. This isn't a military mission this is Anna's mission I don't care what Knight thinks. You might as well have Romulus take off with Anna and her crew or get killed. It's clear Knight and Romulus won't get along so you might as well kill him off. Stuff like this happens all the time with my RP style it seems.

Knight threatened to shoot Romulus if Romulus just arbitually decided to shoot the pirate commander in the face. He states, "Don't shoot her unless she pulls a gun, and don't do anything foolish..." just prior to his threat. That means if she decides to pull a gun and go down in a blaze of glory... well that sucks but it isn't Romulus's fault.

Really, the only reason (as far as I can see) that Knight added the threat, is that Romulus is too damn eager to just shoot people in the face at the drop of a hat. Your character is super aggressive and Knight needed a method of ensuring that you would think before firing on her.

You say Romulus doesn't plan, but he is in a position of command over his squad members. The entire point of being a squad leader is that you lead the squad. That means you come up with plans, regardless of whether they're small or large scale. The common phrase with combat plans is "no plan survives contact with the enemy" this is true but other factors can force a change of plan one of which is when an exploitable opportunity arises.

As to Knights plan. If you were to head directly to the evac point, that would either mean that you would have to go through the commander, or leave her behind you. If you are going through her, then capturing her would just mean a slight change of tactics when assaulting her posistion. If you leave her behind you, you will have a hostile on your ass. In the end you will have to deal with the commander in some way, Knight is just trying to exercise all the potential options he has available.

[Lushin]

Ok I'm starting to get a massive headache over this whole deal. Romulus doesn't make any plans cause in his experience they fail as soon as they are put into action. He makes things up as he goes along, works for him.  Also if you read Azlan's last post of the Pirate Base she's basically dead already. It just seems Knight doesn't want to believe that he killed her. I will not repent for my actions and I'm getting tired of everyone freaking out on me for them. They where my actions, if you don't like my choices I don't care. Romulus will be gone soon anyway.

[Lisky]

lets start with character knowledge... the pirate captain is injured, but we don't know to what degree.  She -is- in cover.  Next, Knight gave a very lawful order, and to ensure Rom wouldn't shoot her on sight, he issued a threat to make sure he didn't do anything foolish enough to disrupt the basic plan.  Rom's part of the plan was to simply secure the stairs and give Knight 30 seconds to a minute to try and talk to the pirate commander.  He's now wasted that in a pissing match brought about by a personal hatred of a plan which had the objective to SAVE THE LIVES OF HIS TEAM.

No one else was being put at risk besides Knight, who would be covered by 1 other soldier...  Now... lets go on to point out that Knight, who has the team in mind, is issuing another lawful order, to which Rom somehow has earned the support of the team when Knight has explained quite clearly that he wants to avoid a flat charge onto the tarmac. At the very least, Azlan pointed out that a "team" character isn't going to work here, and Rom would be on his own.

Knight is being a dick about rank because RUNNING AND GUNNING across an open airfield is paramount to suicide.  He's given this reason both IC and OOC.  Do people not realize that there is a section of Paved concrete... the best one can do for cover is lay on their belly to minimize their profile...

Now, lets take what we've seen of the pirate equipment, automatic weapons, grenades, snipers, and lots of people to man said equipment.  They have cover, it is broad daylight, and the team has to cross open terrain to get to it's extraction.   They are outnumbered, outgunned, out of cover, have no fallback position... and yet, somehow Rom thinks RUNNING into that hail of gunfire is a better plan than trying something with the slightest hint of subtlety and guile?

Soo... keeping all this in mind... i don't see how Romulus, who is supposedly a seasoned officer, can get so hostile, over a plan who's goal is keep his team members alive, and, should the risk to which Knight is taking pay off, will minimize the injury and death to his team.  IF we want a real-life incident to support Knight's position, go ahead and read about the Navy SEALs in Panama, at the Paitilla Airfield.... and the SEALs even had the cover of night to aid them...

[Lushin]

Ok this the last I will talk about this. Stop assuming that Romulus is gonna just run and gun. I'm tired of everyone assumeing what he will do. I even had someone say why Romulus doesn't like the plan but I'm guessing you just saw Romulus not doing what Knight told him. I'm also tired of people saying a good soldier will follow any order given to them and not question it. That is just a mindless soldier. I've seen things on Marines when they want soldiers to speak up if they think the oder is a bad one. MAYBE Romulus wanted to see the Tarmac and then figured out how to get to the ship, but no YOU just assume he wants to run and gun. I'm tured of everyone coming down on me cause of my actions. Would also like to point out that Romulus told Knight if he is gonna grab their commander do if after they threw the fash bangs at the pirates on the stairs.

There problem solved

[Prof B Hunnydew]

Whoa Dude
edit:   Lets not let this go over our heads....   (NEVER MIND what I first posted)

( the GM is Azlan, he should have the final say here)


***kitty should stay out of these things. ****

PBH

[Lisky]

Dude, what i'm trying to say is that, from all Knight's seen and heard of Rom, he's seen Rom make things up on the fly, and hope for luck to get him through things... That's what Knight has seen, and that's the perspective i'm trying to explain.  

Next up, for not liking plans, you certainly just condradicted yourself something horrible here:

MAYBE Romulus wanted to see the Tarmac and then figured out how to get to the ship

That's a plan... something Rom was so dead set against that he pointed a gun at Knight... i'm trying to be civil, but Rom simply threw out insults and screamed "no no no! LALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!", then pulled a gun.  He didn't offer an alternate course of action, he simply said "I don't like your plan, we're not going to do it"  

Give him another idea, Knight would have considered it, instead, all Knight got for stating his plan was violent threats, insults and "I don't like plans"...

[Azlan]

*Boom*  Rainbow firecracker explosion.

Okay, if you all don't settle down, you're all getting turned into girls by magic... especially Shades, because it's fun.

Now onto the serious.  I'm not sure why everyone thinks Holly the pirate commander is hurt.  She has a few scratches from debris and she managed to smack her head a bit as she dove for cover, but it's really nothing.  Knight missed her with the gauss, I read into his post that he purposefully aimed around where her position was and I assumed a healthy margin.  She hit the ground immediately after her two guards got killed.  Ana fired her little accelerated shrapnel trick knowing that the collie was on the ground with the intention of nicking her ear and keeping her down.  So there is nothing really wrong with her.

As for Lushin, I'm not sure how to address this.  In all honesty, Romulus was not my favorite.  His way of doing things does not sync with my style of running.  I worried extensively what might happen all the time.  One learns to overcome such things and work to make the experience at least enjoyable if not engaging.  I believed your playing style could use a bit of work, and the writing skills needed to be refined, but I valued the diversity.  However, I had extensive plans to develop the character, and challenge his view point of the world. 

The situation that has recently occurred made me consider my desire to run this RP and sapped a bit of the fun from it.  In all honesty, when I first read the quote below, I found it both offensive, unreasonable and well... a childish threat:

You might as well have Romulus take off with Anna and her crew or get killed. It's clear Knight and Romulus won't get along so you might as well kill him off. Stuff like this happens all the time with my RP style it seems.

I read this it sounded in my mind like... "I can't have my way, so I don't want to play no more.  No one likes how I do things, so I'm leaving."  That is part of why it took me so long to respond.  Then you go and cop-out Romulus.  I now have to deal with this in game, rewrite the plans for the direction of the RP, and hope that this has not completely soured all enthusiasm from the rest of the characters.  Had I still been angry I'd end this with, "thanks for being so selfish and running away like a coward."  However, I don't have time for this and need to salvage the game.

In an effort to cull this, I am going to let Lushin's cop-out stand.  I'm not sure how to address it in the RP yet, but something will have to occur.   


Now, let me clarify something for everyone so we can understand ourselves better.

I have a certain opinion, which is shaped by fact, that military operations are planned and executed accordingly.  Moltke was known to have said, "No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength.", which has been simplified to "no plan survives contact with the enemy".  However, you all would be mistaken to think that he thought war plans were of no use.  A true interpretation is that military strategy is a system of options, as only the beginning of a military operation is the only part that can be truly planned.  The main task of military leaders is the extensive preparation of responses to as many possible outcomes as one can envision.

That being said, I am a very big proponent of planning and discussion among my military personnel.  I have been doing my best to try to subtly work that into game, but I am going to just come out and say it.  Understand what you need to do, how you are going to do it, and what you do once you do it.

When all is said and done, I don't want this RP to feel like work to anyone, so do your best to fake it.  In the end this RP is meant to be more tongue-in-cheek and campy than serious, but it is what people make of it.

So please, let us end this discussion here.

[ShadesFox]

*In a pink frilly dress*
I feel so pretty... so pretty and witty and... *long pause* gaaay~

I hope this does continue.  I've been having fun imagining the... potential, of having Xaos and Gaea along.  Oh yes, Aaron will have 'fun'

[Prof B Hunnydew]

*In a pink frilly dress*
I feel so pretty... so pretty and witty and... *long pause* gaaay~

I hope this does continue.  I've been having fun imagining the... potential, of having Xaos and Gaea along.  Oh yes, Aaron will have 'fun'

Aah Now, I am not sure I want this to continue....  
*takes back pink frilly dress*

PBH

Oh the whole worlds gone to Hell... But How are you?

I'm super
Thanks for asking
All things considered
I couldn't be better I must say

[Azlan]

I have no intention of letting this fail, I've had to work to revise things a bit and been busy with my work.  Things will continue soon.  Do not worry.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

Thank Goodness... GM is back...

PBH

[Lushin]

Ok everyone Azlan had a talk with me and I realized how much of a jerk (to put it nicely) I was being. I got caught up with be my character and screwed up. Azlan and I talked and he suggested it would be possible for me to make a new character. Only if everyone else allowed me to. If you guys want me gone than I will respect that and leave. So I will leave the decision up to you all.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

OKay I will let you, come back.

PBH

[Lisky]

hey man, i've got no problems with it... i suppose i wasn't being the clearest headed either and i apologize for a few of the conclusions i jumped to...

if you're up for it, you're more than welcome to play

(Also, from a completely medical point of view, a hit to the head is survivable with armor... though a massive concussion, and instant unconsciousness would be the most likely result if the person does survive...

soo...Rom -could- still be alive... very unlikely... but possible)