08/05/09 [PF #63] - Yup, just your regular M.C. Escher corridor

[Jairus]

Sheesh, Joshua. Like Yak said, it's just a hyperdimensional portal.

So... through the power of magic, Jakob has created his own perpetual energy generator? Or is trying to?

Also, Waterfall.

[Ren Gaulen]

So... through the power of magic, Jakob has created his own perpetual energy generator? Or is trying to?

Well, close enough.

Also, Waterfall.

MY MIND!

[LionHeart]

So would the water have reached terminal velocity by now? After all, if it's constantly falling, it would still be subject to the acceleration from gravity...

[Pagan]

Well, spinning the turbines probably slows it a bit. And I don't think the water is continuously falling anyway, since most dams are right before the waterfall, instead of on the waterfall. Sure, the water is always flowing and it's the same water over and over, but the river is not in a continuous state of free-fall.

And darnit, Yak! We coulda seen Joshy-boy have a full blown freakout. Ya know, I have to wonder if there's a bit of psychological damage to cutting his emotions. I mean, if Jakob had not done that, Josh would have gone a bit hysterical, then calmed down, and finally processed the events and his emotions. What Jakob did seems like it's just a temporary solution.

[Ren Gaulen]

So would the water have reached terminal velocity by now? After all, if it's constantly falling, it would still be subject to the acceleration from gravity...

It is also constantly slowed down by the dam, so I think it should not reach terminal velocity.

..Though Pagan said the same thing already. (Sorry, didn't notice.)

[Tapewolf]

So would the water have reached terminal velocity by now? After all, if it's constantly falling, it would still be subject to the acceleration from gravity...

Well, there are sluices to control the flow of it.  This they will need to do for maintenance purposes if nothing else.

And darnit, Yak! We coulda seen Joshy-boy have a full blown freakout. Ya know, I have to wonder if there's a bit of psychological damage to cutting his emotions. I mean, if Jakob had not done that, Josh would have gone a bit hysterical, then calmed down, and finally processed the events and his emotions. What Jakob did seems like it's just a temporary solution.

Maybe.  It would have made the chapter a lot longer, though.

So... through the power of magic, Jakob has created his own perpetual energy generator? Or is trying to?

He has, but it's not the ultimate goal of the project, just a handy bonus.

[Tezkat]

So then... what happens to all that kinetic energy when you shunt the water back into the reservoir?

A better question: Why the external sunlight source? I mean... you've got an endless loop that converts gravitational energy into electricity and heat/noise. It seems to me that this little hyperrealm would have an enormous problem with energy waste as it is, to the point that you'd probably need to sink it into Furrae or some other convenient extradimensional energy dump before you boiled the lake or shook the facility apart...

Also... why the reservoir? It's kinda wasting engineering effort on water storage/management when you could just create a closed loop turbine tube (portal on each end) with a resistance profile engineered for any arbitrary terminal velocity. (Or not. A sufficiently robust system could accelerate the water up to relativistic speeds. Gravitational particle accelerators! )


The emotional drain is a neat trick, since it kinda fits with the whole theme of active energy capture you've got going here. I wonder if it's part of the standard SAIA curriculum.

[Tapewolf]

So then... what happens to all that kinetic energy when you shunt the water back into the reservoir?

It's not teleported directly from the turbines, if that's what you're thinking - it's more like two lakes, with a matter transmitter at the bottom (or top?) of the lower lake, and a receiver in the top lake.

A better question: Why the external sunlight source? I mean... you've got an endless loop that converts gravitational energy into electricity and heat/noise. It seems to me that this little hyperrealm would have an enormous problem with energy waste as it is, to the point that you'd probably need to sink it into Furrae or some other convenient extradimensional energy dump before you boiled the lake or shook the facility apart...

Mostly because they wanted the sky effect.  A bit like the recorded skies in Freeside in Neuromancer.  I imagine that they can probably keep the system balanced by shutting the light tunnel down, or possibly dumping the heat into deep space through another portal.  Heck, you could probably do it as a sort of fake day/night cycle.

Also... why the reservoir? It's kinda wasting engineering effort on water storage/management when you could just create a closed loop turbine tube (portal on each end) with a resistance profile engineered for any arbitrary terminal velocity. (Or not. A sufficiently robust system could accelerate the water up to relativistic speeds. Gravitational particle accelerators! )

That's easy - Jakob likes hydroelectric dams, always has done.
"I love this place.  I could stand here for hours, like watching the waves lapping on the beach.  I haven't had time to come here recently, though."

The emotional drain is a neat trick, since it kinda fits with the whole theme of active energy capture you've got going here. I wonder if it's part of the standard SAIA curriculum.

I don't know.  I originally conceived it as a halfway house between passively absorbing emotions and sucking out someone's soul.  Amber later said that it was possible (I forget why that came up) but it's useless for feeding because it takes more energy than you gain.  That's irrelevant to Jakob's uses for it, though.

[Keiel]

I have a feeling that generating free power in this way is impossible, even allowing for the existence of hyperspace portals. Something to do with gravity. I'll have to think about it for a bit though...

[Tapewolf]

I have a feeling that generating free power in this way is impossible, even allowing for the existence of hyperspace portals. Something to do with gravity. I'll have to think about it for a bit though...

On paper it violates the conservation of energy.  It may be that the portals take more energy than the dam provides, it doesn't really matter.  They may perhaps be using it to regulate the dam and using the more traditional method of pumping the water back up to the top lake.  The dam is just to provide a base load - they have another source of energy.

[ChaosMageX]

So... through the power of magic, Jakob has created his own perpetual energy generator? Or is trying to?

He has, but it's not the ultimate goal of the project, just a handy bonus.

No, he has not.  One way or another, entropy is an absolute inevitability and there is no way it can be evaded.

Now, I'm not trying to argue with the author here, since it's his comic and he can defy the laws of physics if he likes.  I'm just stating how I think the process works for the sake re-assuring myself that I do understand thermodynamics.  So, on with my explanation...

This process of his is running in an endless cycle, yes, but it takes Magical Energy to run the matter transporters that move the water back up to the top reservoir in the cycle.

I doubt that even magic is a reversible process.  Even if magic has a 100% conversion efficiency of magical input to work output, those turbines certainly aren't 100% efficient.  This little apparatus of his is probably giving him somewhere between 80% to 99% conversion efficiency from quogs of magic power to watts of electrical power.

In fact, it's also taking magical energy to tunnel in the sunlight, and if this pocket dimension can be considered an open system, then it's also taking magical energy to sink the heat and mechanical vibrations created by the turbines out of the system as well.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is absolute, as long as the process involves something from the real world, and there is no avoiding it.  Perpetual motion is just not possible with real world components in the system.

I'm assuming that mana can't be directly converted to joules for, oh say, electromotive potential for electricity, otherwise he probably wouldn't have even bothered with this set-up, correct?

I'm taking Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics over the summer and it is a tough class, so I need to know the 2nd Law inside and out, since the professor is very critical about it.  Even if magic isn't involved, applying it to magic is helping me remember it.

If I could get some numbers and an efficiency rating of the turbines in use, I could probably even do some thermodynamic calculations by assuming that the magical teleportation is a 100% efficient pumping process.

And just to clarify on the units:
1 mana = 1 unit of magical energy
1 quog = 1 unit of magical power = 1 mana per second

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

How does a robot cry? I mean, where does the water come from?

[Tapewolf]

No, he has not.  One way or another, entropy is an absolute inevitability and there is no way it can be evaded.

With our current understanding of physics, certainly.  I'd be a bit leery of saying anything is quite that absolute, particularly when you have races with a recorded history of 100'000 years or more...

This process of his is running in an endless cycle, yes, but it takes Magical Energy to run the matter transporters that move the water back up to the top reservoir in the cycle.

...

In fact, it's also taking magical energy to tunnel in the sunlight, and if this pocket dimension can be considered an open system, then it's also taking magical energy to sink the heat and mechanical vibrations created by the turbines out of the system as well.

Correct.  However, there are ways of dumping the heat.  Running it back into the Arctic base and using it to keep the place warm, for starters.  Is it going to remain in balance perfectly?  No.  However it's probably going to take decades of operation before they have to do anything in the way of "maintenance" to re-establish the equilibrium.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is absolute, as long as the process involves something from the real world, and there is no avoiding it.  Perpetual motion is just not possible with real world components in the system.

You're not seeing the whole system, though.  Remember, they also have total conversion.  The dam is only really there to provide the base load, as we shall soon see.

I'm assuming that mana can't be directly converted to joules for, oh say, electromotive potential for electricity, otherwise he probably wouldn't have even bothered with this set-up, correct?

Actually he did it this way for aesthetics, mostly.  He could probably have just used pebble-bed reactors or heck, some kind of magical generators if he'd wanted to cut corners.  I'd explain more but I don't want to give everything away...

By the way, welcome to the forum.  Remember to read the rules if you have not already done so.  Aside from that, have fun and enjoy your stay.

How does a robot cry? I mean, where does the water come from?

It doesn't.  Joshua doesn't sweat or cry tears anymore.  However, that doesn't stop him becoming emotionally-distraught.

[Gabi]

Even with our physics I wouldn't put anything in such absolute terms. "Absolute inevitability"? Only fanatics can make such claims. And, as usual, the claims come alone, without anything solid and tangible to back them up. "Because a physicist said so" is not a good reason. All scientific proofs are based on the assumption of a set of axioms, and many times the axioms have been found to be wrong, or at least doubtful.

[ChaosMageX]

Happy to be here!  I may even start my own web comic soon, but only time will tell if I have to free time to do so.

Even with our physics I wouldn't put anything in such absolute terms. "Absolute inevitability"? Only fanatics can make such claims. And, as usual, the claims come alone, without anything solid and tangible to back them up. "Because a physicist said so" is not a good reason. All scientific proofs are based on the assumption of a set of axioms, and many times the axioms have been found to be wrong, or at least doubtful.

Yes, in a world where our perceptions of reality are in constant flux, on can never be certain of any given statement.

I was being my usual impulsive self when I hastily said "absolute inevitability" there.  In the world of engineering, that is what everyone is expected to assume because it has not been disproven otherwise (and you lose points on the major exams if you forget to take it into account).
However, in the world of cosmology and theoretical physics, entropy is still barely understood.  If it is absolute, then our universe will go through a heat death where all energy becomes uniformly distributed and no usable work can be extracted from it.
There are some that believe that the limits of entropy increase with the universe's size, and in this case heat death will never happen.
There are dozens of other conflicting theories out there that all essentially correct unless disproved through repeatable experimental observations, and even then our observations can never be held as completely correct, since we need to disturb the system to make those observations.

Entropy is just something used to explain why processes are not finitely reversible, because it would take an infinite amount of time to reverse them.
Shattering a wine glass will increase its entropy, and it would take an infinitely long time to un-shatter it with the same energy it took to shatter it.  Gluing it back together or melting it down to make a new glass takes means adding energy to the glass system, and thus increasing the universe's entropy.

The Third Law of Thermodynamics states that a perfect crystal at absolute zero temperature has an absolute entropy of zero, so any process that takes you away from that will increase entropy.
Now, whether or not a magical based process increases entropy depends on how you describe magic.
I personally like Star Trek's definition of it being a third fundamental form aside from matter and energy.  It really comes to the point where thought can be converted into matter or energy, and vice-versa, or something like that.  In this case, information entropy would come into play.
Whether or not this hydroelectric pocket dimension is an isentropic process is ultimately up to the author and his definition of magic.

If this pocket dimension is separate from the main universe, then it could have its own laws of entropy.  Theoretical physicists are still grappling with the idea of matter-energy transfer between parallel universes, and how it effects the entropy of these universes.
So yeah, I was being too hasty there.  Nothing about the universe is absolutely certain, ever.

[ChaosMageX]

How does a robot cry? I mean, where does the water come from?

It doesn't.  Joshua doesn't sweat or cry tears anymore.  However, that doesn't stop him becoming emotionally-distraught.

Although, if he misses that part of his original body, the good doctor could always give him artificial ones.  In fact, this may give Tapewolf a chance to pull the old "water pistol tear ducts" gag from a certain movie about a teenage android, if anyone here is remembers it.

[Tapewolf]

Although, if he misses that part of his original body, the good doctor could always give him artificial ones.  In fact, this may give Tapewolf a chance to pull the old "water pistol tear ducts" gag from a certain movie about a teenage android, if anyone here is remembers it.

Heh, that's not actually something I've seen/remembered.  Cute idea, though.

By the way, two consecutive posts like that is frowned on in most circumstances (rule 4A, actually). Better to edit the previous post and add the new part to it 

[Tapewolf]

We do have an update of sorts.  Enjoy.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

By the way, two consecutive posts like that is frowned on in most circumstances (rule 4A, actually). Better to edit the previous post and add the new part to it 

We do have an update of sorts.  Enjoy.

... except for moderators and forum mods. In other words, the writer of the webcomic gets allowed to break the rules, and forum administrators get a little more leeway than that. And there are a couple of other threads where you're allowed to multi-post - the Random Hugs thread comes to mind. Other than that, though... Even with this, mods are expected to post with restraint.

Tapewolf knows this, I'm merely reiterating for ChaosMageX's benefit...