02/20/09 [DMFA #974] - vowing

[Madmann135]

Another refrence... OK that's two but this page is full of loose references and jokes.

The only one that can save Regina is...
*dramatic pause*
...Lorenda.

Kira could stop Dan for the time being, but short of killing him he knows where Regina lives ...he would eventually finish what she started.
Lorenda in short is Dan's friend and Dan keeps his friends in high respect.  So if Lorenda asks Dan not to kill her, those two would get into an argument and Dan would concede.

[Sukasa]

I wonder if Fi won't figure out that Dan is getting into trouble and finally call Abel, as he was originally tasked according to This Strip.

[Tapewolf]

Anyone can justify the elimination of "evildoers." Taking down an "evildoer" still does not justify killing, possibly even murdering, the person. A much fairer thing to do would be to bring the enemy to court, but Dan has expressed his distrust of the court system and the possible loopholes in the system.
This arc has shown his growth into a role of vigilante more so than hero. With his vows to send his enemies to their graves (Regina, DP) Dan can hardly claim that what he is doing is good and entirely just.

Well, I don't believe that killing Regina is the right solution to the problem either.  But the vigilante thing is what Dan has always been doing.  That is my point - you seem to be implying that his motives have changed because he's now a full-fledged incubus.  All that's changed since his adventuring days is that Dan is on a more even footing with Regina.

Who is he to judge? Are we so biased as to believe that Dan is the good guy that we can justify his attempt to murder Regina for the sake of saying "It's better for the world"? If I could get a dime for every time a person justified and evil act due to his receiving of a new found power by saying that it "Would make the world a better/safer place," I'd be rich!

If we look at it from a purely numerical viewpoint, killing Regina is one murder.  Letting her run free will result in the deaths of many others over her lifespan (unless what Dan is doing now convinces her to remain on the straight and narrow).

Let's be sure about this - I don't agree that killing her is right.  I have taken a pretty consistent anti death-penalty stance and will continue to do so.  But I can empathise with Dan to some extent.
Personally?  I think it's a bit premature to make that call.  If he does kill her, then yes.  Personally I think he won't.  For all we know, he's deliberately trying to scare her into remaining a good little demon for the next century or so ("Be good... or else Dan will get you!")

Ergo, he is currently living out his hypocrisy by attempting to kill Regina for the sake of revenge instead of trying to bring her to justice like a true hero would.

Again, it's too early to call.  He might inform her that he's going to break his own vow, and bring her in at that point.  We don't yet know.

[AndersW]

While I don't really hold with killing people, I'm not sure I agree.

Dan has already spent his life killing evildoers - a big difference between then and now is that we haven't seen most of that because the comic has been more of a humorous nature.

Anyone can justify the elimination of "evildoers." Taking down an "evildoer" still does not justify killing, possibly even murdering, the person. A much fairer thing to do would be to bring the enemy to court, but Dan has expressed his distrust of the court system and the possible loopholes in the system.

This arc has shown his growth into a role of vigilante more so than hero. With his vows to send his enemies to their graves (Regina, DP) Dan can hardly claim that what he is doing is good and entirely just.

Court System?  You mean this Court System.

[Pagan]

Dan's job is to be an executioner of "evil" Beings and Creatures. He's killed before in the name of justice. Why wouldn't he do so again with Regina? Especially after he has vowed to do so. Should Dan go back on his word? Should Dan let a proven and self-admitted murderer and potential future murderer go free? No. Regina is dangerous and a threat to public safety. She needs to be removed.

And I only hope we get to see her removal.

[Sukasa]

I'd rather not see her 'removal.'  If Regina stays in the comic, and she gets away from Dan, then that would give him a reason to want to go to SAIA, or at least pay more attention to Abel's teaching, as he'll want to get stronger with his Cubi powers so taht he can use them against Regina.

[Angel]

Is... is he tearing up?

Wow. The drama in this comic is amazingly deep.

...I LOVE IT. Please, marm, may we have some more?  

I'm probably one of the few who did not laugh once during this comic....

(raises hand) Me either. I was too spellbound by the emotion in this one to laugh. This thread made me smile, though.

Is it bad that I started singing in my mind "I wanna be.. the very best. Like no one ever waaaass!"?  

...(snerk) That might actually make pretty good fight music... but it'd be kind of Narmy, so...yeah.

As a side-note, I'm kind of hoping for Regina to make a desperate, heart-wrenching plea for Dan to let her live. What I can't tell is whether I'd want his heart to go from steel to limestone and let her go for now, or whether I'd want him to coldly deny her request and attempt to kill her anyway. Something tells me she's not going to die in this arc, though.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Anyone can justify the elimination of "evildoers." Taking down an "evildoer" still does not justify killing, possibly even murdering, the person. A much fairer thing to do would be to bring the enemy to court, but Dan has expressed his distrust of the court system and the possible loopholes in the system.

Er...

No, Dan hasn't. Amber, by way of Mikelo, has said that the average court in the land is pretty pointless as far as justice goes. See here, just for example.

Edit:
Dammit. I'm just not fast enough. :-/

[Tapewolf]

No, Dan hasn't. Amber, by way of Mikelo, has said that the average court in the land is pretty pointless as far as justice goes. See here, just for example.

He was referring to this:
http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_935.php

[Michael Chandra]

While I don't really hold with killing people, I'm not sure I agree.

Dan has already spent his life killing evildoers - a big difference between then and now is that we haven't seen most of that because the comic has been more of a humorous nature.

Anyone can justify the elimination of "evildoers." Taking down an "evildoer" still does not justify killing, possibly even murdering, the person. A much fairer thing to do would be to bring the enemy to court, but Dan has expressed his distrust of the court system and the possible loopholes in the system.

This arc has shown his growth into a role of vigilante more so than hero. With his vows to send his enemies to their graves (Regina, DP) Dan can hardly claim that what he is doing is good and entirely just.

Yes, Dan has basically had a power upgrade, but he's using it for adventuring.  At the end of the day, Regina killed a bunch of people for sh_ts and giggles and/or to improve status.  Dan's vow to kill her is to make the world a safer place.

Who is he to judge? Are we so biased as to believe that Dan is the good guy that we can justify his attempt to murder Regina for the sake of saying "It's better for the world"? If I could get a dime for every time a person justified and evil act due to his receiving of a new found power by saying that it "Would make the world a better/safer place," I'd be rich!

If Dan starts killing people for fun, then - and only then - has he failed and become what he hates.

Ergo, he is currently living out his hypocrisy by attempting to kill Regina for the sake of revenge instead of trying to bring her to justice like a true hero would.



All that said, I still find this character development to be downright fantastic.

Because we all know how much justice there is in a small fine for 12 murders.

[Jairus]

While Dan's assessment of the court system is that it's useless, we know that it really is. Ergo, his assessment is absolutely correct. Hell, maybe part of the reason he's so furious at Regina is because she got off with a FINE. That someone else payed. Albeit, he may only know that she got away from him and what happened next, but I think Dan or Edward or Destania managed to neutralize her to actually bring her to court, and when she got off and escaped justice Dan vowed to destroy her in order to gain some form of justice for those people who died and for himself and his friends. I mean, if she didn't get caught in some way, how did we see that scene about Kria paying off that fine? Unless Kria also killed a dozen beings, which is likely I'll admit.

To be blunt, I think that vigilantism is not a good sign. It means that the justice system is so broken and corrupt that people are forced to take matters into their own hands. I'm surprised some guy hasn't started dressing up like a bat because a demon killed his parents. However... if a system is that broken, than some form of justice and protection has to exist. I wonder if there are Creature adventurers (outside of Dan) who save the day for beings. I mean, a Gratitude Cubi could probably do something like that.

Also... I doubt Dan would get in trouble from a legal standpoint if he killed Regina. If he was charged as a being, then his side lets him off lightly because she was a demon who previously murdered beings and had expressed no regret over it and had expressed a desire to do it again. If he's charged as a creature, then we get this whole conflict for power and Might Makes Right thing and "he proved himself stronger," so in that case he'd probably also get off lightly. Now, if he'd get off lightly from the perspective of Kria and his friends... I don't know.

[Tapewolf]

I mean, if she didn't get caught in some way, how did we see that scene about Kria paying off that fine? Unless Kria also killed a dozen beings, which is likely I'll admit.

That was a fourth wall strip.  However now you mention it, I'm not sure the number of Beings involved is a coincidence.

I wonder if there are Creature adventurers (outside of Dan) who save the day for beings. I mean, a Gratitude Cubi could probably do something like that.

I don't know about canon, but it's an idea I've played with a lot.

[Pagan]

Also... I doubt Dan would get in trouble from a legal standpoint if he killed Regina. If he was charged as a being, then his side lets him off lightly because she was a demon who previously murdered beings and had expressed no regret over it and had expressed a desire to do it again. If he's charged as a creature, then we get this whole conflict for power and Might Makes Right thing and "he proved himself stronger," so in that case he'd probably also get off lightly. Now, if he'd get off lightly from the perspective of Kria and his friends... I don't know.

Kria... I'm not sure. But she is a Demon and we know how they think. His friends? They would cheer him. "Way to go, Dan! You see, you are still a good person. It doesn't matter if you're a Cubi or a Being, you still took down an evil Creature. Want some celebration ale?"

[Tapewolf]

Kria... I'm not sure. But she is a Demon and we know how they think.

Well, that's interesting - from the last panel it almost looks like Kria grew out of the rampaging thing.

[Arcblade]

I wonder if Fi won't figure out that Dan is getting into trouble and finally call Abel, as he was originally tasked according to This Strip.

Perhaps he'll call Abel somewhere near Devin...?    

[Ted Schiller]

Kria, in the name of Team Domino Death and for the sake of pizza delivery men everywhere, I vow I shall deliver you to Hell in thirty minutes or less!

With regards,
Ted

[Tapewolf]

Should Dan go back on his word? Should Dan let a proven and self-admitted murderer and potential future murderer go free? No. Regina is dangerous and a threat to public safety. She needs to be removed.

Note also that Dan hasn't strictly said he's going to destroy her today.  I think there's enough wiggle-room for him to back down once she's been reduced to the state Abel was when he entered SAIA.

[Cvstos]

Is it bad that I started singing in my mind "I wanna be.. the very best. Like no one ever waaaass!"?   

And when you said that "Number One" from Bleach popped in my head.

However now you mention it, I'm not sure the number of Beings involved is a coincidence.

You may very well be onto something there!

[Michael Chandra]

Isn't it fun (and awesome) that despite Dan not moving and crying out, even with eyes closed at one point, his wings still go after Regina over quite a big distance?

[Cogidubnus]

Note also that Dan hasn't strictly said he's going to destroy her today.  I think there's enough wiggle-room for him to back down once she's been reduced to the state Abel was when he entered SAIA.

I don't know if I buy that - or, at least, not with him in the state that he's in. Being so angry you cry isn't the sort of state that one comes down from easily, let alone after one has issued an ultimatum of that sort. One could hem and haw about the meaning of 'destroy', but in it's most literal sense I believe he means he's going to do his damndest to kill her - I don't think he's going to back down until someone stops him, is what I'm trying to say.

As far as all this about the justice of his actions, let's not be lawful stupid about this. We can look at this in three ways - one, Regina assaulted him with a drink tray, and upon running away expressed a desire to kill Dan after finding a suitable weapon - something Dan is aware of, and I certainly am not going to fault him for self-defense. One might argue that he could somehow stop her without killing her. However, I do not believe that anyone can really say what anyone 'should' do in this circumstance. If someone is threatening or expresses a legitamate desire to kill you, I don't think anyone but the person in that situation can make that choice, in the same way that a police officer has to make a decision to shoot someone or not if they come at them with a gun. I believe that Regina does present a clear and present danger, in this sense.

In the other sense, justice is normally administered through a system of courts. I hesitate to call what Dan and adventurers of his ilk do, then, vigilantism. Vigilantism implies a legitimate source of justice that citizens should depend on, which clearly does not exist here. If you cannot depend on any larger entity, governmental or otherwise, do you expect people to suffer injustice at the hands of others, simply because they do not have a 'legal' recourse? The laws that exist are unjust - it is here that I mean we should not be lawful stupid about things. A law is a good law only insofar as it is a just law.

In the third sense, I think it's apparent that Regina is hardly innocent, and to defend her as being set upon by Dan is to ignore that she has clearly set herself upon Dan before. I know that I am a dinosaur, and perhaps I am barbaric, but I do believe that the blood of the victims cries out for justice - it is an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, in it's most basic sense. Dan is just in seeking reparations for what has been done to him.

[AmigaDragon]

The only thing I'm concerned about is the fact that Regina is a demon.  That is to say:  She's far from helpless even in her relatively young state.  If she can get her act together for even a second, this is going to be far less of a predator and prey scenario than it is now.  However given her immaturity it make take something to jolt her into it.  Either to get her angry or to make her so afraid that she has no choice but to fight.

I think we've passed that point already. With Dan's anger and "powerup" ('cubiness), she's so far beyond "piddle self and run" that she just wants to find a corner to curl up and hide in.

Fully cubi'ed Dan! w000000tah!

There is something just awesome about seeing a character flesh out new aspects. I suspect that most of SAIA has picked up on this and is rushing around..."Destiana's kid's in a fight!!" "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!" Just like in any schoolyard.

That assumes that they're scrying on him. With their attention span, they would have lost interest during parts of his flashback story to Fi, or even before that, on his way to see "Biggs".

Should Dan go back on his word? Should Dan let a proven and self-admitted murderer and potential future murderer go free? No. Regina is dangerous and a threat to public safety. She needs to be removed.

Note also that Dan hasn't strictly said he's going to destroy her today.  I think there's enough wiggle-room for him to back down once she's been reduced to the state Abel was when he entered SAIA.

There's various levels of destruction. There's death of the body and destruction (devouring) of the soul, which Dan would hate himself for if he went that far. There's destruction of the ego or will. There's destruction of reputation. There was a suggestion of Regina serving at Lost Lake, I agree that she couldn't be trusted as bouncer, so make her a serving wench, or cook... naw, Abel seems to be doing his part in the kitchen and might resent her invading it. Make her a janitor, it may do nothing for her anger (Darke Kat working janitorial at ZZ Studios), but may keep her ego in check. ...If Kria would let her go at Dan's request. She might not if Regina is a big help (yeah, right) around the house, but if keeping Regina there is more trouble to her than it's worth, she might see taking her as a partial payment

[PinkKitty]

Amber appears to like toying with the readers... Mixing up emotional signals to make us confused! Feeling bad about what Regina did to Dan and making us want to see her meet her doom... then constantly trying to make us pity her when Dan is completely losing it.

...Just makes me all the more eager to see more updates. =n.n= Always happy to read DMFA when it updates, and Amber being so reliable with the updating is a huge help as, for me at least, it helps me stay very interested in the comic.

[terrycloth]

Court System?  You mean this Court System.

You know, I always assumed that it was Kria who'd killed over twelve beings in that strip, but she doesn't actually look like she's under arrest there. I bet that was Regina's trial after the incident with Dan.

(Oh, and a nendrai is a monster from World Tree that cries tears of jagged glass)

[Tipod]

I'm surprised there aren't like more bands of minutemen and vigilantes around if the general law system is that lacking.

[Tapewolf]

There's various levels of destruction. There's death of the body and destruction (devouring) of the soul, which Dan would hate himself for if he went that far.

I don't believe he's learned soul-eating, besides which, it's a punishment far in excess of her own crimes.

Being so angry you cry isn't the sort of state that one comes down from easily, let alone after one has issued an ultimatum of that sort. One could hem and haw about the meaning of 'destroy', but in it's most literal sense I believe he means he's going to do his damndest to kill her - I don't think he's going to back down until someone stops him, is what I'm trying to say.

I'm not sure I buy it either, to be honest.  Not unless he's a better actor than we gave him credit for.  And yes, personally I suspect Lorenda or Abel will intervene.

[AmigaDragon]

Kria... I'm not sure. But she is a Demon and we know how they think.

Well, that's interesting - from the last panel it almost looks like Kria grew out of the rampaging thing.

It looks like she's doing more contracted work, like Council reconnaissance and wedding guard.

And yes, personally I suspect Lorenda or Abel will intervene.

Or even both, Fi brings Abel at about the same time Regina and Dan run into (perhaps literally) Lorenda.

[Aisha deCabre]

Wow...just, wow.

I must say, I can't stop reading this page over and over again.  Now THIS is drama.  This is also how I like to see Dan; badass and (in his own way) righteous, with vengeance against a natural-born-and-loving-it killer.

Apologies to all the Regina people, but I'm rooting for the 'Cubi adventurer on this one.   

I just can't wait to see what happens, dangit!

[Kaerou]

Would Kria really save her though?  She doesnt even seem to care.

I mean.. from what we've seen of Demons so far, they seem to consider those who cant fend for themselves too weak to live anyway.

Because of this, most demons don't have a real notion of revenge or vengeance if one of their own kind is slain. After all, by their own belief system, if someone is able to defeat them, that other creature or being is obviously worthy.

[Mao]

Would Kria really save her though?  She doesnt even seem to care.

I mean.. from what we've seen of Demons so far, they seem to consider those who cant fend for themselves too weak to live anyway.

Because of this, most demons don't have a real notion of revenge or vengeance if one of their own kind is slain. After all, by their own belief system, if someone is able to defeat them, that other creature or being is obviously worthy.

Most demons seem to share a sense of family and will often band together for long periods of time. Even afterwards demons seem to share a lot more close ties to their kin.

To me this says:  She might try and save her, but if she dies.. eh no big.

[Kaerou]

Ah's, I missed that bit as I was only looking for the quote I remembered.