Democratic Party primary election; Who would you vote for?

[Cvstos]

There's a Google-backed firm that's producing panels that aren't super-efficient, but are very, VERY cheap, nearing $1/W.  That's ridiculous.  That's getting close to being cheaper than coal!

[Brunhidden]

Technically i am a socialist, not to be confused with communist.

however i am so upset that the voters of the united states think that their only choice is democrat or republican- when bush junior was elected there were SEVEN different political parties on the primary, but the voters only thought their choices were repub and dem.

think, for much of the history of the united states neither existed. teddy ran as the bull moose party, and washingtons only credentials was he ran the nations largest whiskey distillery and offered free beer for voters.... the ethanol party i assume.

[Cvstos]

think, for much of the history of the united states neither existed.

That's not true Brunhidden!

Founded in 1792 by Jefferson and other opponents of the now-defunct Federalists, the US Democratic Party is one of the oldest political parties in the world, and by far is the oldest in the US! Here's a wiki snippet (or two):

The Democratic Party traces its origins to the Democratic-Republican Party, founded by Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and other influential opponents of the Federalists in 1792.

Initially calling itself the "Republican Party," Jeffersonians were labeled "Democratic" by the opposition Federalists, with the hope of stigmatizing them as purveyors of democracy or mob rule.[52] By the Jacksonian era, the term "The Democracy" was in use by the party; the name "Democratic Party" was eventually settled upon.[53] In the 20th and 21st centuries, "Democrat Party" is a political epithet that is sometimes used by opponents to refer to the party. The current official name of the party is the "Democratic Party."

[bill]

Also for the history of the US, having any more than at the very most three political parties (which is rare enough) with major power has been a massive exception, not the rule.

[Valynth]

Technically i am a socialist, not to be confused with communist.

Care to explain the difference?  As far as I've seen, the only difference is cosmetic.

[Tapewolf]

Care to explain the difference?  As far as I've seen, the only difference is cosmetic.

Soviet Russia compared to France?

[Valynth]

Care to explain the difference?  As far as I've seen, the only difference is cosmetic.

Soviet Russia compared to France?

So either way we'll end up ruined....  Everything else is cosmetic.

[bill]

Technically i am a socialist, not to be confused with communist.

Care to explain the difference?  As far as I've seen, the only difference is cosmetic.

so what you're really saying is "I have no idea what I am talking about"

[Valynth]

Technically i am a socialist, not to be confused with communist.

Care to explain the difference?  As far as I've seen, the only difference is cosmetic.

so what you're really saying is "I have no idea what I am talking about"

And your inability to reply to my inquiry implies the same about you.

[bill]

"socialism and communism are the same except for cosmetic differences" is not one of those things you can debate, in the same way that "evolution is only a theory" is not something you try to debate. if you truly believe that, you have a shocking lack of understanding.

[Cvstos]

Ruined? I don't know if you've noticed, but the Euro has been kicking the dollar's butt as of late. The CIA World Factbook places France as the 8th largest economy in the world.  Not exactly a poor nation.  France is definitely a major world economic power, like it or not!

Although ultimately a victor in World Wars I and II, France suffered extensive losses in its empire, wealth, manpower, and rank as a dominant nation-state. Nevertheless, France today is one of the most modern countries in the world and is a leader among European nations. Since 1958, it has constructed a hybrid presidential-parliamentary governing system resistant to the instabilities experienced in earlier more purely parliamentary administrations. In recent years, its reconciliation and cooperation with Germany have proved central to the economic integration of Europe, including the introduction of a common exchange currency, the euro, in January 1999. At present, France is at the forefront of efforts to develop the EU's military capabilities to supplement progress toward an EU foreign policy.

- CIA World Factbook

[Valynth]

"socialism and communism are the same except for cosmetic differences" is not one of those things you can debate, in the same way that "evolution is only a theory" is not something you try to debate. if you truly believe that, you have a shocking lack of understanding.

I give you a troll value of 8/10.  Really, good work ignoring everything in the original post.

Cvstos:  Any Country that allows people to riot violently because some kids crashed into a parked law-enforcement vehicle and died, and then actually listens to the crowd's demands that an equal number of police officers be killed is ruined in my book.

[bill]

I don't think you understand. Saying that socialism and communism are the same thing is objectively wrong.

[Cvstos]

"socialism and communism are the same except for cosmetic differences" is not one of those things you can debate, in the same way that "evolution is only a theory" is not something you try to debate. if you truly believe that, you have a shocking lack of understanding.

I give you a troll value of 8/10.  Really, good work ignoring everything in the original post.

Cvstos:  Any Country that allows people to riot violently because some kids crashed into a parked law-enforcement vehicle and died, and then actually listens to the crowd's demands that an equal number of police officers be killed is ruined in my book.

You're VASTLY over-simplifying the complex and tense issues behind the riots in France - particularly those involving North African immigrants.  First of all, the police car was moving.  But, it's not truly about the youths.  There was a powder keg ready to go off, that accident was just the match that set things off.  France is not perfect - it has problems.  But calling it "ruined" would be laughable if your qualification for it wasn't so arbitrary and random.  I might as well say any country that sells pecans in ice cream is "ruined".  Oh, woe is the entire western world...

[bill]

Unfortunately, too many people are content to put "arabs" as the cause of the French riots.

[Cvstos]

Unfortunately, too many people are content to put "arabs" as the cause of the French riots.

This is true.  The US media in particular is oversimplifying things. Renseignements Généraux has said that islamic extremism had no role in the unrest.  This was entirely a domestic issue.

[bill]

I wouldn't put it as an american-media issue. European media (*cough daily mail cough*) has been just has blatantly racist about immigration to Western Europe as the US media has been.

[Cvstos]

Heh.  You're not the first to say such about daily mail to me.  OK then, many media outlets have been oversimplifying the issue, often in a racist fashion.

[Valynth]

Heh.  You're not the first to say such about daily mail to me.  OK then, many media outlets have been oversimplifying the issue, often in a racist fashion.

Muslim/Islam isn't a race, it's a philosophy/religion.  Granted they are still heavily bigoted against anyone who isn't of the region's dominant race to the point of trying to genocide the minor ethnic groups resulting in only a handful of ethnic groups that believe in Muslim/Islam.

[Alondro]

I'll solve everything with very clear answers everyone can understand!

Muslims are evil.

Democrats are evil.

Republicans are evil.

France is evil.

Russia is evil.

(Insert anything here) is evil.

Basically, to fix things, we must blow the world into asteroids. 

...

I'm working on it.   

[Zina]

Every time Alondro uses the "mwaha" icon, I'm going to take a shot.

[Valynth]

I didn't know you were suicidal Zina...

[LionHeart]

She'll probably just pass out. Nobody can drink that many shots at once...

Of course, we'll have to pick her up off the floor and put her to bed when that happens.

[Tapewolf]

This is only tangentially related to the US elections (though arguably more on-topic than communism or Alondro), but it is election-related and I'm not sure it deserves its own thread.

In last night's local elections I had a choice between voting for Labour, Labour, Labour, or some guy who lives down the road, so I wasn't really expecting miracles in my attempt to overthrow the government.  However it does seem to have gone much better than expected:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7372860.stm

[Alondro]

Every time Alondro uses the "mwaha" icon, I'm going to take a shot.

             

This will be a good experiment on the effects of ethanol toxicity! 

  (for good measure)

[Cvstos]

Heh.  You're not the first to say such about daily mail to me.  OK then, many media outlets have been oversimplifying the issue, often in a racist fashion.

Muslim/Islam isn't a race, it's a philosophy/religion.  Granted they are still heavily bigoted against anyone who isn't of the region's dominant race to the point of trying to genocide the minor ethnic groups resulting in only a handful of ethnic groups that believe in Muslim/Islam.

Genocide is going a bit too far there. I haven't heard of any mass exterminations. 

But, the reason I used "racism" is because it actually applies.  A lot of what I've seen is the media taking "North African" and assuming "radical Islam".  Basically, they're trying to make the connection of Arab/African = terrorist.  Which, whether they're looking at Arabs or Africans, is racist.

[Valynth]

Genocide is going a bit too far there. I haven't heard of any mass exterminations. 

And yet we always seem to stumble over mass graves in Iraq...  Familiar with the term "media blackout?"  If not, how about "centralized press?"

But, the reason I used "racism" is because it actually applies.  A lot of what I've seen is the media taking "North African" and assuming "radical Islam".  Basically, they're trying to make the connection of Arab/African = terrorist.  Which, whether they're looking at Arabs or Africans, is racist.

Considering a majority of the nations in "North Africa" have deep islamic roots and officially recognize the only language radical islamists will speak as the standard language, I'd say it's a fair estimation that many crimes committed in those regions are tied to a radical group at some point.

Also, when radical islam is composed primarily of French people we'll start being "racist" as you call it against the French.

[Cvstos]

Genocide is going a bit too far there. I haven't heard of any mass exterminations. 

And yet we always seem to stumble over mass graves in Iraq...  Familiar with the term "media blackout?"  If not, how about "centralized press?"

Back up a bit, I was referring to France specifically on the "mass exterminations" line.

But even then, there hasn't been any wide-scale genocide in the manner of which you speak.  There has been a lot of killing, BUT, I wouldn't label anything there genocide to the end of trying to kill all non-muslims, for two reasons.

One, it just hasn't really happened.  A lot of the killing has even been Muslim against Muslim - Sunni and Shi'ite.  And in terms of killing in war, an awful lot of that is political more than anything.  Land and oil.  Historically, Jews and Muslims left each other alone. It's only been recently that the relationship between the two groups have soured, in particular since the founding of Israel.

Two, those "mass graves"?  Political.  Saddam was not a member of radical Islam. He was just a tin-pot dictator.  Saddam was not a friend of bin Laden, they hated each other.  Saddam thought bin Laden was a religious lunatic, and bin Laden thought Saddam was a violent heretic dictator.  For once, they were both right.  Religion really doesn't matter much with many of these dictators - power is power.

But, the reason I used "racism" is because it actually applies.  A lot of what I've seen is the media taking "North African" and assuming "radical Islam".  Basically, they're trying to make the connection of Arab/African = terrorist.  Which, whether they're looking at Arabs or Africans, is racist.

Considering a majority of the nations in "North Africa" have deep islamic roots and officially recognize the only language radical islamists will speak as the standard language, I'd say it's a fair estimation that many crimes committed in those regions are tied to a radical group at some point.

Also, when radical islam is composed primarily of French people we'll start being "racist" as you call it against the French.

[Cleese]What... I'm about to leave this argument as I think it's gotten far too silly![/Cleese]

That makes no sense what so ever!  A lot of the North African immigrants in France date back to the end of WWII.  They brought them over to rebuild the country after two world wars decimated not just France but all of Europe.  They brought them in to help rebuild the country, and they brought their families in an effort to join a more wealthy country.  WAY, WAY before all this al-Qeada crap was even around.

Your logic is... not.  By saying that, I could make the following statement, too.

Considering a majority of the nation of the United States has deep Christian roots and officially recognize the only language radical Christians will speak as the standard language, I'd say it's a fair estimation that many crimes committed in that region are tied to a radical group at some point.

You heard me.  Seriously.  Saying "because those immigrants are from [insert area here] that's [insert religion here], it's a fair estimation that many of the crimes that are committed in [insert previous area here] are tied to a radical group"... if you assert that such logic actually works (it doesn't), I can say the above about Christian radicals (eg, KKK, CCC, etc). 

But you know what?  It doesn't work.  Most crimes committed in the US aren't committed by those radical groups, and most crimes committed in France aren't done by those radical groups. Because most people aren't a part of those radical groups!

[Darkmoon]

Jesus, this topic is wordy.

Oh, for the person far back that said Americans only pick one of two parties, I'll just comment that I vote Green Party, but I also don't vote straight ticket. I don't much care for Nader, so I don't vote for him, but many people running under the green flag get my notice, and I will, invariably, vote them, so long as they are liberal enough for my tastes.

[Valynth]

Genocide is going a bit too far there. I haven't heard of any mass exterminations. 

And yet we always seem to stumble over mass graves in Iraq...  Familiar with the term "media blackout?"  If not, how about "centralized press?"

Back up a bit, I was referring to France specifically on the "mass exterminations" line.

But even then, there hasn't been any wide-scale genocide in the manner of which you speak.  There has been a lot of killing, BUT, I wouldn't label anything there genocide to the end of trying to kill all non-muslims, for two reasons.

One, it just hasn't really happened.  A lot of the killing has even been Muslim against Muslim - Sunni and Shi'ite.  And in terms of killing in war, an awful lot of that is political more than anything.  Land and oil.  Historically, Jews and Muslims left each other alone. It's only been recently that the relationship between the two groups have soured, in particular since the founding of Israel.

Two, those "mass graves"?  Political.  Saddam was not a member of radical Islam. He was just a tin-pot dictator.  Saddam was not a friend of bin Laden, they hated each other.  Saddam thought bin Laden was a religious lunatic, and bin Laden thought Saddam was a violent heretic dictator.  For once, they were both right.  Religion really doesn't matter much with many of these dictators - power is power.

You never said "France."  Since I was talking about Muslim/Islam-powered regions, I assumed you were ALSO TALKING ABOUT MUSLIM/ISLAMIC POWERED REGIONS!  You can't blame me for what YOU omitted.

Next I guess you're going to tell me that the Kurds had some sort of political threat against Saddam and thus he had a legitimate reason for testing his chemical weapons on them OTHER than he simply wanted to get rid of the Kurds.

Finally you'll also note that, as I said before, MUSLIM/ISLAM ISN'T A BLOODY RACE, SO STOP TREATING IT LIKE IT IS.  If a nation's populace is 95% Islamic, there is a good chance that people coming from that country are Islamic.  Since Islam has a higher risk of radicalism than other religions, there is a greater chance that the person is a radical than say a person coming from a country were 95% of the population is Christian.

Considering a majority of the nations in "North Africa" have deep Islamic roots and officially recognize the only language radical islamists will speak as the standard language, I'd say it's a fair estimation that many crimes committed in those regions are tied to a radical group at some point.

Also, when radical Islam is composed primarily of French people we'll start being "racist" as you call it against the French.

[Cleese]What... I'm about to leave this argument as I think it's gotten far too silly![/Cleese]

That makes no sense what so ever!  A lot of the North African immigrants in France date back to the end of WWII.  They brought them over to rebuild the country after two world wars decimated not just France but all of Europe.  They brought them in to help rebuild the country, and they brought their families in an effort to join a more wealthy country.  WAY, WAY before all this al-Qeada crap was even around.

Your logic is... not.  By saying that, I could make the following statement, too.

Considering a majority of the nation of the United States has deep Christian roots and officially recognize the only language radical Christians will speak as the standard language, I'd say it's a fair estimation that many crimes committed in that region are tied to a radical group at some point.

For one thing, Christianity doesn't only speak English.  By all accounts if Christianity didn't want to assimilate it would be speaking Latin all day every day.

Secondly, The U.S. government has yet to officially adopt a set language.  Infact every time somebody tries to issue legislation requiring English to be the official language it gets laughed right out of congress.  In short, English is only the prime language because the citizens choose to speak it for daily commerce(Hint: see defacto), not because the government declares that they must speak a language like a certain snail eating snooty country that fines you for using words that aren't a part of the language and then is shocked when their populace turns to English instead.

Thirdly, Christian doctrine is extremely difficult to radicalize.  In fact, a majority of the "Radical Christian" sects I've seen rely on a few passages of the bible THAT DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT CHRIST!  More adequate term for such people would be "Old Testifiers" and "Revelationieres."  I'm sick and tired of people saying "We follow this section of the bible therefore Christian is we dhur."  In order to be a "Christian" you have to believe in the New Testament Gospels that actually contain Du-Da-Du JESUS THE CHRIST, who infact, ACTED against nearly all of the radical's teachings.

I seriously doubt Muhammad could say the same about his relationship with his radicals.

You heard me.  Seriously.  Saying "because those immigrants are from [insert area here] that's [insert religion here], it's a fair estimation that many of the crimes that are committed in [insert previous area here] are tied to a radical group"... if you assert that such logic actually works (it doesn't), I can say the above about Christian radicals (eg, KKK, CCC, etc). 

But you know what?  It doesn't work.  Most crimes committed in the US aren't committed by those radical groups, and most crimes committed in France aren't done by those radical groups. Because most people aren't a part of those radical groups!

NOT ANY MORE!  There WAS a time when about 60% of the killings of innocent minorities in the southern U.S. could be attributed to groups such as the KKK.

The main reason such things don't happen any more is because, as I've said before, their claim of Christianity didn't fit with what Christ actually DID as well as the fact that we in U.S. managed to retool our police force to stop turning a blind eye to it.  The people of Muslim/Islamic world, however, just declare themselves better than everyone else due to their dogma and deem that they don't have to fix anything in their socio-political system and will actually riot the moment anyone so much as TELLS them they're doing something wrong.

Jesus, this topic is wordy.

Welcome to politics.  Feel free to pull up a chair and warm your feet by the flames.