27/08/07 [#811] Destania: Rapist, torturer... author?

[Tapewolf]

Just wanted to correct you on 2 things...

1) Where did it say Dan doesn't know his mom is alive? We know that Dan last met her in Twink Territories, which shouldn't be too far ago.

I stand corrected.

2) I see nowhere about Alexi even knowing WHO Abel is before her reunion with Destinia.

When Dan returned from SAIA, Abel turned up with him.  By my reckoning there have been at least four days since then.

So far it's like only 24 hours since Alexi knew about that association. (basically, time from her returning from kidnapping, Which Dan happen to walk out of the door for no apparent reason, then her getting them to work on chores first thing in the morning. Not really much time to have a talk, especially if she's in a bad mood for almost everyone not missing her.) For all we know, she is intentionally trying to get Dan and Abel to bond together.

That is a possibility, I'll admit.  I've been assuming a slightly larger time-lapse, say a week.

**EDIT**
But that wouldn't wash, since they should have noticed Wildy's absence by then.

Wait a minute... Abel wasn't learning pain and terror from Destania to begin with. (or at least, that isn't the vested interest that Destinia had with Abel.) She was teaching him how to survive without anyone's help...

Yes.  This is an interesting point that no-one has explored yet and I kept forgetting to bring up myself.

If she's really that evil, how did he manage to pluck up the courage to ask her to help him in that regard?  Unless of course they have some kind of optional module scheme in SAIA and he kept taking the 'surviving alone' module over and over again...

[superluser]

And she owes Dan for the inn business.

It's late, and my brain isn't too clear, but I don't remember ever hearing that Dan has an explicit stake in the business.

Abel wasn't learning pain and terror from Destania to begin with. (or at least, that isn't the vested interest that Destinia had with Abel.) She was teaching him how to survive without anyone's help...

From her perspective, they might be the same thing.  I'd think that Pain and Terror are mighty useful tools for surviving without anyone else's help.

[Tapewolf]

And she owes Dan for the inn business.

It's late, and my brain isn't too clear,

Evidently 

I meant the scene where he pretended to be her in order to save the magazine interview, not the day-to-day running of the inn from a financial perspective.

[Turnsky]

And she owes Dan for the inn business.

It's late, and my brain isn't too clear,

Evidently 

I meant the scene where he pretended to be her in order to save the magazine interview, not the day-to-day running of the inn from a financial perspective.

Alexsi might not know the full extent on how Dan helped her out, though.

[Tapewolf]

Alexsi might not know the full extent on how Dan helped her out, though.

That's a good point.

[King Of Hearts]

...

But Abel could still have the hots for her, Nope... didn't hear a denial.

...

Hmm... or Abel was the one that Dee used as a subject for the practical applications for her craft... including rape.

[Jigsaw Forte]

Hmm... or Abel was the one that Dee used as a subject for the practical applications for her craft... including rape.

Let's just make it simple and say Destania was Kria's teacher or something to that effect. Not hard to imagine how she could've outsourced herself.

And as long as we're on the topic, I'd think that whenever Destania got around to teaching rape she'd be the demo /instructor and not the other way around... And if we're going that far, It's a safe bet that rape is traumatic enough without some Teacher grading you on technique.

[Wageslave]

From an artistic viewpoint, it was neat to see Abel's reaction in the lower left-hand corner... it looked like a watermelon'd down version of his mother's reaction in the Abel's Story arc.


Jigsaw Forte said:

And as long as we're on the topic, I'd think that whenever Destania got around to teaching rape she'd be the demo /instructor and not the other way around... And if we're going that far, It's a safe bet that rape is traumatic enough without some Teacher grading you on technique.

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'


If you didn't know a lot about your mother, and you wanted to learn something about her and the only thing you knew about her was some book on torture, rape, and all those negative emotions, would you check it out of the library?  Could you take the risk that it would impact your world-view?

Would it be cowardice if you didn't or if you did?

[Caswin]

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Consider the subjects at hand.  To not expect "creepy" is to be completely out of touch with pretty much the whole "dark" side of DMFA.

[techmaster-glitch]

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON?

[Naldru]

Hmm... or Abel was the one that Dee used as a subject for the practical applications for her craft... including rape.

Let's just make it simple and say Destania was Kria's teacher or something to that effect. Not hard to imagine how she could've outsourced herself.

Since Kria was a demon and SAIA is an academy for cubi, it doesn't seem likely that Destania would have had Kria as a student.

Some of the techniques may have been taught on a more theoretical basis although there does seem to be some hands on demonstrations with regard to torture.  However, just because martial arts classes may teach you how to kill somebody, it doesn't mean that they actually kill anybody during the training.

However, it also appears that cubi use the Burke and Hare method of getting test subjects.  If you want to give Destania the benefit of the doubt, you can picture her getting her test subjects from the local outlaw community.

[Goatmon]

That last panel is the best part. 

[Caswin]

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON?

Random people grabbed from their homes against their will?

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all?

[Turnsky]

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON?

Random people grabbed from their homes against their will?

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all?

in that day and age, well.. the pun of "serf's up" may apply.

[Tapewolf]

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all?

I was thinking they'd be a bit more dead than that 

[Aleolus]

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON?

Random people grabbed from their homes against their will?

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all?

in that day and age, well.. the pun of "serf's up" may apply.

Ouch.  Nice pun.

[Caswin]

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all?

I was thinking they'd be a bit more dead than that 

That would depend on the student, instructor, and class.  There's only so much you can inflict on a dead body.

[Tapewolf]

That would depend on the student, instructor, and class.  There's only so much you can inflict on a dead body.

I'm thinking it would be like trying to get that last little bit out of the jar.

[Manawolf]

Who is defining this evil, Evil is a pretty vague and broad subject.

Please, not the stupid act of saying it's all relative.  Abel's did give at least 3 examples of entirely evil acts (and anyone who tries to discount torture and rape as not being evil need a kick in the groin).

Also, not sure it's been said yet (I'm not reading back through four pages of this chatter), but Destania did say she left her old life behind when Dan was born.  Obviously, this meant her life of evil, as her new priority was looking after Dan and her family (such as her husband who she is still searching for in Twink territory).

[GabrielsThoughts]

I don't know, I think hello kitty is evil, but I'm sure many would disagree... in the dark ages I'm sure rape and torture were considered less evil than masturbation. I never said she wasn't evil, but I would like to see the scale of evil with regards to the DMFA Universe.

[Turnsky]

I don't know, I think hello kitty is evil, but I'm sure many would disagree... in the dark ages I'm sure rape and torture were considered less evil than masturbation. I never said she wasn't evil, but I would like to see the scale of evil with regards to the DMFA Universe.

offhand i'd say Dee would be perfect among the spanish inquisition.

[Wageslave]

I'm reminded of some lines from the Tom Smith song 'Hellraiser' as we keep talking about 'evil'

"...everything is relative within the eyes of God, someone's pain is someone else's delight.. and all it takes is just a subtle change in point of view to make the wrongs of Man seem good and right..."

((http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/hellraiser.htm for the full lyrics))

If one could be anything they wanted (in essence) and were subject to the emotions and thoughts of those around them, wouldn't a little bit of 'burn-out' be desired by powers that be to prevent pure and utter chaos that would disrupt the carefully organized Academy and the world order as a whole?

"In this class we're going to instruct you in Torture 101: Basics of Information Gathering.  With the ability to gather the data you need for infiltration without destroying the opportunity that gave you the information should you need it again in the future"

[Tapewolf]

Please, not the stupid act of saying it's all relative.  Abel's did give at least 3 examples of entirely evil acts (and anyone who tries to discount torture and rape as not being evil need a kick in the groin).

While I'm not trying to justify it, consider that we humans rape, torture and kill turkeys and other livestock - and for the most part, people consider this normal.  You have people who go vegetarian over it but for the most part no-one seems to care.

Now flip this over, and the Creature PoV is that Beings are as far below them as turkeys are below us.  You'll get 'Cubi who think it's abhorrent, especially from those who were raised as Beings, but in many cases you'd have a "Shame, but it was only a Being" attitude.

[Fuyudenki]

Please, not the stupid act of saying it's all relative.  Abel's did give at least 3 examples of entirely evil acts (and anyone who tries to discount torture and rape as not being evil need a kick in the groin).

While I'm not trying to justify it, consider that we humans rape, torture and kill turkeys and other livestock - and for the most part, people consider this normal.  You have people who go vegetarian over it but for the most part no-one seems to care.

Now flip this over, and the Creature PoV is that Beings are as far below them as turkeys are below us.  You'll get 'Cubi who think it's abhorrent, especially from those who were raised as Beings, but in many cases you'd have a "Shame, but it was only a Being" attitude.

I'd argue most people don't think raping turkeys is particularly normal.  In fact, I recall talking to a particular pacifist and sex addict who will remain unnamed, who would have taken peoples' heads at the suggestion.


On the topic of "surviving alone," intimidation is far more effective at keeping yourself from getting hurt than killing, as it takes less effort and prevents you from breaking laws.(not that Cubi would care about laws)  Case in point, I've been taught that when you're surrounded by hostile gang members(a very real possibility where I live, though not a common one), they will send the smallest of their number to attack you, and then if you hit him, they'll mob you "out of protection."  Instead, the proper strategy is to ignore the little guy, search out the biggest guy in the group, and deal one or two strikes.  Nothing fancy, just something brutal and vicious enough to bloody him a bit or knock him out cold.  Then, take the distraction, and RUN FOR YOUR EVER-LOVING LIFE!

[Tapewolf]

I'd argue most people don't think raping turkeys is particularly normal.

Usually it's referred to as artificial insemination, but the net result is the same for the turkey.

[Zedd]

Will it blend? That, is the question.

[GabrielsThoughts]

Definitions and meanings applied to the words rape, torture, and murder that are not as evil as you thinkl

Rape...
1. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

2. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Torture...
1.to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.)

2.the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

Murder...
1. a group or flock of crows.

2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.

[Caswin]

Definitions and meanings applied to the words rape, torture, and murder that are not as evil as you thinkl

Rape...
1. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

2. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Torture...
1.to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.)

2.the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

Murder...
1. a group or flock of crows.

2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.

I'm... pretty sure that's not what Abel was talking about.

EDIT: Much as I may hate to admit it, the "it's all relative" argument makes sense here.  "Evil is a strong/vague word" and "shades of grey", however, have practically no bearing.  I'm getting tired of hearing those.

[Psaakyrn]

As an addendum to the turkey arguement, I would like to remind that the target victims of the lessons taught is likely intended for Beings.

A) Creatures view beings as lesser creatures/lifestock.
B) Most Creatures are not raised as beings. The only exception we've seen is Dan and Abel.
C) For comparison, consider how we view Lorenda: Even though she is more being-adjusted than most creatures, she still occasionally eats people who irritates her (like door-to-door salesmen).

Likely, only Beings (or Creatures raised as such) view these acts as Evil. Creatures are more likely to view this as a "How-to" on Bestiality. (and assuming that Bestiality is acceptable norms as well) (I'm not going to go into the whole Zoophile/Bestiality arguement here, so don't push this analogy too far please. )

[EDIT] Clarafication: I'm not implying that the "rape" of turkeys was referring to any bestiality acts, but was using the turkey analogy to link back to the point that Creatures view Beings as cccc lesser creatures/lifestock. [/EDIT]

[Tapewolf]

Likely, only Beings (or Creatures raised as such) view these acts as Evil. Creatures are more likely to view this as a "How-to" on Bestiality. (and assuming that Bestiality is acceptable norms as well) (I'm not going to go into the whole Zoophile/Bestiality arguement here, so don't push this analogy too far please. )

I'm starting to get worried here.  Just in case I am the only person who saw the clip on 'top 20 most disgusting jobs' or whatever it was, I'd just like to state that my comments about turkey rape pertain to the breeding techniques used in industrial farming.  Not perversion.