11/22/06 - Fire!

[Stygian]

It's just a question of where the reaction takes place. Exo does not signify without, but outgoing. So the thing is burning exothermically slightly extralocally. 

SPECULATION!!!

Did anyone else notice the look on Nightmyste's face when he was talking to Dan/Alexsi? Dan is just a beginner cubi. His disguise is the magic of others, not his own. Perhaps Nightmyste has picked up on this. My bet is they'll  be back later for Dan. He -is- a cubi afterall, though whether or not he's a threat is still to be determined by the adventurer's point of view. We all know he's not, but they don't.

This has been the best comment yet. While Alondro always tops out on the chemistry and genetics, Wildy scores this one home.

As for me, I believe that it will probably be Merbel's fire magic, or Danlexsi's behaviour that gives them out. Or a combination of both. And the other adventurers will be back for questions.

[Cogidubnus]

I heard about this one chemistry major who went fishing with some Cesium in his pocket...apparently, he had an accident out there...they never even found the boat.

[superluser]

I heard about this one chemistry major who went fishing with some Cesium in his pocket...apparently, he had an accident out there...they never even found the boat.

Entertaining, but I think the cesium would have fallen out of a hole in his pocket before he even got on the boat.

...funny, there wasn't a hole there this morning...

[bill]

Yeah, that smells like urban legend. Cesium isn't something that you'd put in your pocket.

[Madmann135]

Well... my method of setting water on fire or the ilusion of such is probably the safest and easiest.

[Cogidubnus]

Yeah, that smells like urban legend. Cesium isn't something that you'd put in your pocket.

Hey man, the MIT chemistry major says it's true, so I believe him, yeah?

[superluser]

Actually, the reason some alkali and alkali earth metals create flame in the water is because the reaction they have with water produces hydrogen and a great amount of heat energy, which ignites the hydrogen.  The metal itself isn't actually burning, which is what happens when you ignite a strip of magnesium.  The metals CAN ignite if you set fire to them, but when they're thrown in water, they strip a hydroxide ion from a water molecule.  The process involves the donation of their single s-level outer shell electron to the oxygen atom of the water, which dissociates a hydrogen atom, which quickly stabilizes itself by binding with another hydrogen atom to form the stable diatomic hydrogen molecule.  The excess heat generated by the reaction ignites the hydrogen in the air, and ends up producing water once more in vapor form.  When you dry out water in which the reaction took place, you'll end up with either sodium or potassium hydroxide.

So, instead of burning, they undergo exothermic oxidation? Isn't that also known as 'burning'?

I think his point was that the metal isn't what's burning.  You've got two reactions:

2Na + 2H2O -> 2NaOH +H2

2H2 + O2 -heat-> 2H2O

(I think I balanced those)

The Na does not participate in the combustion reaction.

[Alondro]

Many types of reactions occur that are exothermic oxidations, yet are not combustion.  Rusting iron, for instance, is exothermic oxidation (if you look at the net energy from the reaction, it gives off heat) but it's certainly not burning!  Zinc in HCl, same thing, but no fire because the heat generated isn't enough to ignite the hydrogen.

That is correct about the electron shells.  The alkali metals all have one unpaired electron in their outer shell, with all their inner shells filled.  The reason the larger atoms are more reactive is due to the charge attraction and insulating effect of the inner shells.  The outer electron of hydrogen, which is technically an alkali metal and thus has been hypothesized to act as an alkali metal under conditions of extreme pressure (around 1 million atmospheres, I think) such as exists inside Jupiter and possibly Saturn, is held fairly tightly to its single proton nucleus compared to cesium.  The outer s-shell electron of cesium is far from the nucleus overall.  This makes its attraction to the nucleus much weaker and its unpaired status allows other atoms or molecules that either 'need' electrons or exist in a state such that the reaction is energetically favorable to exchange one ion for another (sodium has far higher affinity for oxygen than hydrogen... electronegativity or something... been years since chemistry class).

Then there are the 'noble gasses' with all outer valence electron shells full: helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon.  They are very stable and only form compounds under unusual conditions with extremely electron-hungry chemicals.  Helium and neon, at least as far as I know, hold onto their two outer s-shell electrons so strongly that there have never been compounds formed from them.

Uhm... so anyway... Abel's gonna set Lost Lake on fire... heh heh heh... 

[terrycloth]

Many types of reactions occur that are exothermic oxidations, yet are not combustion.  Rusting iron, for instance, is exothermic oxidation (if you look at the net energy from the reaction, it gives off heat) but it's certainly not burning! 

Huh? My high school chemistry teacher said that iron rusting *was* being burned -- burning was any oxidation. And oxidation doesn't mean 'being combined with oxygen molecules' (even though in these examples it is) it means... er... something technical... that I don't remember... except that the opposite is reduction. Dammit.

[Kibin]

Many types of reactions occur that are exothermic oxidations, yet are not combustion.  Rusting iron, for instance, is exothermic oxidation (if you look at the net energy from the reaction, it gives off heat) but it's certainly not burning!  Zinc in HCl, same thing, but no fire because the heat generated isn't enough to ignite the hydrogen.

That is correct about the electron shells.  The alkali metals all have one unpaired electron in their outer shell, with all their inner shells filled.  The reason the larger atoms are more reactive is due to the charge attraction and insulating effect of the inner shells.  The outer electron of hydrogen, which is technically an alkali metal and thus has been hypothesized to act as an alkali metal under conditions of extreme pressure (around 1 million atmospheres, I think) such as exists inside Jupiter and possibly Saturn, is held fairly tightly to its single proton nucleus compared to cesium.  The outer s-shell electron of cesium is far from the nucleus overall.  This makes its attraction to the nucleus much weaker and its unpaired status allows other atoms or molecules that either 'need' electrons or exist in a state such that the reaction is energetically favorable to exchange one ion for another (sodium has far higher affinity for oxygen than hydrogen... electronegativity or something... been years since chemistry class).

Then there are the 'noble gasses' with all outer valence electron shells full: helium, neon, argon, krypton, xenon, and radon.  They are very stable and only form compounds under unusual conditions with extremely electron-hungry chemicals.  Helium and neon, at least as far as I know, hold onto their two outer s-shell electrons so strongly that there have never been compounds formed from them.

Uhm... so anyway... Abel's gonna set Lost Lake on fire... heh heh heh... 

...was Charline on vacation or something?

[Stygian]

Many types of reactions occur that are exothermic oxidations, yet are not combustion.  Rusting iron, for instance, is exothermic oxidation (if you look at the net energy from the reaction, it gives off heat) but it's certainly not burning! 

Huh? My high school chemistry teacher said that iron rusting *was* being burned -- burning was any oxidation. And oxidation doesn't mean 'being combined with oxygen molecules' (even though in these examples it is) it means... er... something technical... that I don't remember... except that the opposite is reduction. Dammit.

No, it means specifically combining with oxygen. And you cannot say that any sort of violent and heat-generating reaction between two chemicals might be called burning. Then we're starting to get on the topic of the leaps of the electrons in the atoms as they combine with each other and the different spectra of radiation that might release, so we might end up with something that does not release heat at all, but is instead luminescent, or violently radioactive, or gives you horrible skin burns and cancer, etc...

[ChaosTiger]

all this talk about explosions and fire... makes me feel like burning something now... >_>

since it's magic, he could just have the fire above the water instead of the lake actually burning... but what fun would that be? on with the explosions! things must BURN 

[e_voyager]

Francium would be literally impossible to get, and I doubt people would leave cesium lying around unguarded.

Yeah, doesn't Francium have a really short half-life?

I would still really like to see the kind of explosion a piece of that stuff would put out... I've seen what cesium can do, and I'm impressed.

yeah me to still you have to know that things never stay the same. there will find other ways to do what they do

[Stygian]

The golden rule states that everything turns into shit. Entropy conquers all. End of story.

Now, who believes that Danlexsi's dress will catch fire and lead to great embarrassment? Raise a hand!

[Grenn]

Woo! Fire!

Eh, easy enough to cast it. At least from Able's point of view :p

[Cogidubnus]

Wait...isn't that running joke? That Dan once set the lake on fire?

[terrycloth]

Huh? My high school chemistry teacher said that iron rusting *was* being burned -- burning was any oxidation. And oxidation doesn't mean 'being combined with oxygen molecules' (even though in these examples it is) it means... er... something technical... that I don't remember... except that the opposite is reduction. Dammit.

No, it means specifically combining with oxygen.

Okay, I looked it up, and you're wrong. Well, the 'no' is wrong -- it also means combining with oxygen, but that's not the only definition.

burn
(after a bunch of intuitive and metaphorical definitions, we get the actual chemistry definition)
10. Chemistry. a. to undergo combustion, either fast or slow; oxidize.  
b. to undergo fission or fusion.  

oxidize
4. to remove electrons from (an atom or molecule), thereby increasing the valence. Compare reduce (def. 12).  

There was a definition 1 that specified 'combining with oxygen', but 2NA + H2O -> 2NAOH + H2 seems to qualify on that count too, and this is the one I remember from chemistry.

combusion
2. Chemistry.
a. rapid oxidation accompanied by heat and, usually, light.  
b. chemical combination attended by production of heat and light.  
c. slow oxidation not accompanied by high temperature and light.  

So it's absolutely clear that rusting iron qualifies since it's iron plus oxygen gas. There might be some wiggle room for sodium+water, although it seems to qualify. Basically, the 'chemistry' definition of burn would have to be referring to the oxygen-specific definition of 'oxidize' and not the valence-related one.

Also, it's pretty clear that, entirely aside from that, you CAN say that any chemical reaction that produces heat and light is 'burning', and in particular nuclear fission and fusion are 'burning'. It looks like 'heat' is more important than 'light' for the generic definition.

[GabrielsThoughts]

SPECULATION!!!

Did anyone else notice the look on Nightmyste's face when he was talking to Dan/Alexsi? Dan is just a beginner cubi. His disguise is the magic of others, not his own. Perhaps Nightmyste has picked up on this. My bet is they'll  be back later for Dan. He -is- a cubi afterall, though whether or not he's a threat is still to be determined by the adventurer's point of view. We all know he's not, but they don't.

speculation? The chances of this probably just doubled concidering you have an "in" with the Amber person... hmm, someone should start a betting pool.

[Stygian]

Wait...isn't that running joke? That Dan once set the lake on fire?

Verily, my liege! Yet once again, you art the only one to mind such references, whilst the rest bicker and squabble. Thrice a cheer for you!

There is going to be a comment about that from Alexsi's side later, or alternatively Dan will slap his face and think; "Aww, cripes... Not again..."

[Zedd]

It be fun see fire on water anyhow

[terrycloth]

It be fun see fire on water anyhow

Panel 2: Lake burns in the background, while the adventuring party discusses.

"That's not merlitz. He always got those silly fire-wings when he was setting lakes on fire."

"Yeah, and there were some heavy magic spells on the proprieter of that inn. Do you think they're advertising to lure in new victims?"

[ChaosTiger]

Wait...isn't that running joke? That Dan once set the lake on fire?

Verily, my liege! Yet once again, you art the only one to mind such references, whilst the rest bicker and squabble. Thrice a cheer for you!

There is going to be a comment about that from Alexsi's side later, or alternatively Dan will slap his face and think; "Aww, cripes... Not again..."

I could see either of those happening... or both o_0 although I'm leaning towards the second one myself...

[Faerie Alex]

Wait...isn't that running joke? That Dan once set the lake on fire?

Actually, he turned it pink.
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_675.php

[Alan Garou]

I heard about this one chemistry major who went fishing with some Cesium in his pocket...apparently, he had an accident out there...they never even found the boat.

I believe that Amber once responded to this sort of discussion... 

STOP NERDING UP MY THREADS! D:

Anyway, I agree that although Amber said that the Inn wouldn't be set on fire, there is probably significance to the fact that she said nothing about the actual lake. I expect to see the lake on fire within a week or two's time. And if Merbelitz doesn't set the fire, then I will!

[DigitalMan]

Hmm, more speculation! I say he still gets caught by the adventuring party. 20 bucks says Gen is still there

[Aridas]

You're only assuming that because amber was coloring her boobs.

[Alondro]

...was Charline on vacation or something?

*Charles erms*  She's..uhm... still on her 'date' with the horse... *cough cough*   

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

So it's absolutely clear that rusting iron qualifies since it's iron plus oxygen gas. There might be some wiggle room for sodium+water, although it seems to qualify. Basically, the 'chemistry' definition of burn would have to be referring to the oxygen-specific definition of 'oxidize' and not the valence-related one.

Ah.. the oxygen reaction -is- the valence reaction. That why it's called oxidise...

Or, at least, that was my understanding. The NA bonds close to OH than OH does to H, since H2O has weak inter bonds, and strong intra bonds...

no?

(I'll admit, it's been a good twelve years since I did any chemistry in anger, though, so..)

[Toric]

Let's hope he remembers the fire-wings that show up when Merlitz casts magic...

The reporter doesn't know that.  Or does she?

Probably not, but I imagine at least one person who reads the article on Lost Lake will know Merlitz and notice the lack of flaming wings of death. And then he/she'll shrug and decide they didn't look good in the photo and just got photoshopped out.

[Landon_Fox]

I am impressed by your chemistic reporte, Alondro.  Of course you know that the next time I include some chemistry gadget in my writing, I'm going to come to you for the technospeak!