I guess topics about Dnd would go here.

[Jim Halisstrad]

This weeks topic, Monsters.
Ever toss in a monster and figure out that it's challenge rating should be higher then whats listed in the book?

Take the Rune Hound for example.  This is from memory, so forgive me if I'm not 100% correct.  It's a CR 3 that has DR 5/ cold iron and magic.  Acid or web breath that recharges in 1d4 rounds, fast healing of....  I think 3, 10 ft reach, nice con score, and a very nice strength score. 

Anyway, I sent about 4 of these after 3 PC's of fifth level and if it wasn't for there ingenuity they probably would have lost a player.  Yeah, it sounds challenging enough just having 4 normal CR three monsters attacking the group but heck, these guys have been playing DND sense highschool.  Normally they wouldn't have broken a sweat.  These monsters literaly knocked everyone down to near dead with out me using much strategy.  (Rune hounds are abberations, I rule most abberations as being bat shit insane).

If it wasn't the combined effort of a summoned creature and the party meat shield knocking them into a line with bull rush the party would have been toast.  Psion got the monsters with a power I can't recall right now....

Anyway, yeah.  Anyone else notice a monster they are using should be at least one CR higher?

[Manawolf]

You do know the CR is relative to fighting a group of 4 D&D PCs.  If a monster is CR 3, that means that a group of level 3 characters would have a 50/50 chance of winning.  Also, since the EL goes up about 1 per extra monster, you basically sicced an EL 6 encounter on a EL 4 group (-1 for having only three PCs).

[Jim Halisstrad]

Yeah *nods* Though generally from experiance and reading through various Dragon magazines the average "Boss" Battle generally is Three to four EL's Above the party level.  True this works out better at higher levels, but for lower levels I have never seen our group struggle with an EL one or two levels higher.  Say, if in this situation instead of The Rune hounds I used 3 orcs with two levels of fighter, or heck... 3-4 levels of warrior.  There is no way that the Orcs would have lasted eight rounds.   
Now true, it was me being a terrible DM (thats not the reason why the game was canceled ;p) and not looking at the monster before going "Hey, why not toss that in there and see what happens". 

That was my bad.  Although I did give them experience for Lvl Four monsters and they got some fat loot from the dungon.
The players did have a good time though, it's been a while since they had a challenge thrown at them.  All three of them are DM's and haven't played a campain together in a long time.  Shame one of them dropped out



*edit*  WHY HALO THAR SPELL CHECK, also pretend that I have grammar

[Manawolf]

The orcs would have to be level 4 fighters to pose the same threat.

[Jim Halisstrad]

*thinks*  Your right, sorry XD  I should have been in bed conked out hours ago.

[Manawolf]

The numbers can get confusing.  I haven't even worked it out entirely (since for some reason two Gibbering Mouthers are EL 7 instead of EL 6).  Maybe it's every 2 CR levels, an additional one adds another 50% (So EL 5/2= +2 CR).  I can't verify this, though.  It's late over here as well.

[Aldoun]

If you use a pair of, say cr four, monsters you end up with an encounter for group of four average and well balanced characters at level six. And CR is counted as that group being able to handle three such encounters before having to rest with a fourth seriously risking their deaths. I've spent quite a lot of time checking that section of the DMG as a DM, mostly because the group I usually game with comprises five (used to be six) above average characters of which all but one is multi-classed. And do remember that an unpredicable enemy which is your equal or superior in terms numbers is often much harder on the group than foes which they seriously outnumber even though the later ones might be much stronger. Particulary weakly armoured/and or healer type characters like arcane spellcasters and whatever clerics/druids the group might have tend to suffer then and by extension fighter type characters once their hit points start to run low.
And do remember that dice are random so hiccups are to be expected, such as the aforementioned group managing to win what mostly amounted to a pitched battle against an entire fort complete with hell-hounds and a werewolf at level three.