In comic time and conservation of energy?

[Psy-Kosh]

Two things I've been wondering: First, how much total in comic time has passed since the comic started?

Second: So in SAIA, no one needs to eat or sleep or whatever because they feed off of each other's emotions.

Where's the energy coming from? ie, if A is feeding off of B and C, but B is feeding off of A and C, and C is feeding off of A and B... + some will still be radiated or otherwise unfed on at all and lost... So where's it actually coming from? Or is energy not conserved at all with emotions? And if so, why can't a Cubi just feed of of their own emotions and such?

Am I overanalyzing this? Yes.

Do I enjoy overanalyzing things like this? Hell yeah!

[Distracting]

First...well, I dunno.

Second, emotions are less molecular formulas and more of trees creating oxygen from carbon dioxide. Our emotions are not as physical as atoms (unless you're talking about them as in chemicals. Emotions, as far as I know, aren't really energy.

Why can't Cubi feed off themselves? I'd imagine it would be much like a sandwich trying to eat itself: oddly hilarious but impossible.

[Manawolf]

The feeding of emotions is a simple one, as it is a natural byproduct of all sentient creatures, so there is no harm and a near limitless supply as long as there are creatures around.  It's kind of like waterwheel, the water is there, so why not get a little something out of it while it is passing down the river?

[Psy-Kosh]

*blinks* either I'm misunderstanding the two of you, or you both misunderstood me, or both of those options.

I meant this: In the comic, emotions are implied to be, or at least associated with, some amount of energy.

So some being or creature experiencing an emotion is emitting the associated energy.

That energy is coming from somewhere. Perhaps it was converted from what was previously chemical energy in food.

Now, what happens when something, say a cubi, feeds on another's emotional energy.

let C be the Cubi, B be the being (or whatever) that is being fed on.

Model #1:

B munches food. Body processes this, extracts chemical energy, etc etc. Later, B experiences some emotion. Some of the previously stored chemical energy get used to "power" the emotion, producing some form of emotional/magical/whatever exactly it is energy that C then munches on.

Model #2: B experiences an emotion. Somehow in this process, new energy is created (ie, energy is not concerved in this process)... C feeds on previously mentioned energy.

Now. Let C1 and C2 both be Cubi. now what?

Via model #1, both may eat some food, experience emotions, then feed off of each other's emotions.

If they eat nothing, then eventually they will deplete their stores of energy. (ie, their internal reserves fat, carbs, magical energy, whatever)...

So model #1 can't reflect the reality in the comic, because in SAIA they're all feeding off each other as a primary energy source, and don't really eat much food at all.

Model #2 would be potentially consistent, except it does seem odd that they wouldn't then be able to feed at all off of themselves. Whatever part of them is responsible for recieving/absorbing emotional energy would somehow have to completely dodge the energy they're emitting.

So neither model #1 nor model #2 are satisfactory representations of what's going on in the DMFA universe.

[fesworks]

Emotions as energy takes a leap to a belief in Magickal energy.

The brains gives off various waves and energy patterns, as well as the body (specific gravity and a small magnetic field).

Now If you believe in magic and all that (without getting into TOO much detail) everyone has an Aura... the aura is like an energy field. Emotions can change this energy field.

Have you ever been in a room and then suddenly the whole room felt.... angry? like as soon as a pissed of friend entered the room, the "atmosphere" of the room changes to adjust to the new wave of anger that just walked in.


now if you think only by scientific logic and cannot suspend belief, or think outside the box, or be open-minded, this concept is a bit harder to grasp.


But I believe this is the basic idea.

[superluser]

Where's the energy coming from? ie, if A is feeding off of B and C, but B is feeding off of A and C, and C is feeding off of A and B... + some will still be radiated or otherwise unfed on at all and lost...

OK.  I'm about to blow your mind.  Look at that quote.  Where does it say anything about the source or type of food?  That argument could just as easily be applied to eating emotions as it could to eating meat or vegetables.

Where is the energy coming from?  The sun.  Plants convert the sun's energy into edible vegetable matter.  Herbivores eat the vegetables, carnivores eat the herbivores, and `cubi eat the emotions that the carnivores and herbivores give off when eating their food.

Of course, you might be talking about where the energy is coming from in SAIA, but a few `cubi still eat (possibly because they need someone to, or else they'll all starve).

The sun also causes inflation.  Bet you thought it was Ben Bernanke.

Edit:

The brains gives off various waves and energy patterns, as well as the body (specific gravity and a small magnetic field).

Specific gravity is a metric for measuring relative density.  That's not the term you're looking for.

[Kasarn]

We've seen a few non-Cubi at SAIA. I'd guess that various visitors and volunteers provide the balance.
SAIA's isolation would also make it a good prison. If it is, then that'd be another source.

[Amber Williams]

There has been a couple cases where adventurers have tried walling up a Cubi in expectations of it starving to death only for hundreds of years later unwitting adventurers unearthing a severly pissed on who happened to have the option to feed on its own rage.  It's not the most common thing granted, but it is possible.

Emotion isn't the same kind of energy that normal energy is.  It doesn't come from a hamburger, it can't be stored.  In otherwords, your theory is going wrong because you assume that the emotional energy has to come from some form of reserve.  A better example would likely be comparing emotions to sunlight and the Cubi having a form of photosynthesis that enables them to create their own energy from it.

[Psy-Kosh]

Where is the energy coming from?  The sun.  Plants convert the sun's energy into edible vegetable matter.  Herbivores eat the vegetables, carnivores eat the herbivores, and `cubi eat the emotions that the carnivores and herbivores give off when eating their food.

Who were you responding to? Because I think I was actually making that point? (Or did I misunderstand what you meant?)

Of course, you might be talking about where the energy is coming from in SAIA, but a few `cubi still eat (possibly because they need someone to, or else they'll all starve).

Yeah, I was talking about SAIA. And as I understood it, what the cubi do eat isn't enough even for themselves, it's just a food they happen to like, so eat it occasionally, but nutrition wise, they wouldn't be taking in enough for themselves, much less enough to distrubute the energy to the school population.

The sun also causes inflation.  Bet you thought it was Ben Bernanke.

*looks up the name* okay... so how does the sun cause economic inflation?

[Distracting]

The way I see it is like this: emotions are like ideas. Do you need nutrients to get ideas? Then it's something from nothing. By that logic, however flawed, you can also expect emotions (thoughts and such. I won't bother getting too deep into the chemical balances because it's too much science for a comic) to be gained from nothing.

[Psy-Kosh]

Before anything else... Why're you here dealing with my overly nitpicky considerations instead of resting and desickifying? De-sicku, _then_ deal with nitpicky fans.

There has been a couple cases where adventurers have tried walling up a Cubi in expectations of it starving to death only for hundreds of years later unwitting adventurers unearthing a severly pissed on who happened to have the option to feed on its own rage.  It's not the most common thing granted, but it is possible.

Aaaah, so they can feed on their own emotions. So model #2 is potentially satisfactory.

Emotion isn't the same kind of energy that normal energy is.  It doesn't come from a hamburger, it can't be stored.  In otherwords, your theory is going wrong because you assume that the emotional energy has to come from some form of reserve.  A better example would likely be comparing emotions to sunlight and the Cubi having a form of photosynthesis that enables them to create their own energy from it.

Unclear what you're saying here. Are you saying that when a being or creature experiences an emotion and spews out emotional/magical energy, the energy is not coming from within, but instead the emotion is "pulling in"/filtering/whatever energy from some other source? (some all pervading magical field/zero point energy/whatever?)

Or did you mean something entirely different?

[Psy-Kosh]

The way I see it is like this: emotions are like ideas. Do you need nutrients to get ideas? Then it's something from nothing. By that logic, however flawed, you can also expect emotions (thoughts and such. I won't bother getting too deep into the chemical balances because it's too much science for a comic) to be gained from nothing.

Yes, we can consider emotions more as just information patterns and stuff. But in the DMFA universe, they apparently are associated somehow with sufficient energy as to give races like Cubi something to feed on.

(Interestingly enough, there is a physics principle which shows that erasing information does actually have a minumum energy cost. (Specifically, to totally erase N bits of information from a system, so that no aspect of the system retains that information, requires k*T*ln(2)*N amount of energy, where k is boltzman's constant and T is the temperature (on an absolute scale) of the surrounding environment. (yes, this is a really really miniscule amount of energy though)))

[superluser]

There has been a couple cases where adventurers have tried walling up a Cubi in expectations of it starving to death only for hundreds of years later unwitting adventurers unearthing a severly pissed on who happened to have the option to feed on its own rage.  It's not the most common thing granted, but it is possible.

So I guess Psy-Kosh is right.  There is no conservation of energy.  I'm going to build a perpetual motion machine out of `cubi and make millions!

[Kasarn]

There has been a couple cases where adventurers have tried walling up a Cubi in expectations of it starving to death only for hundreds of years later unwitting adventurers unearthing a severly pissed on who happened to have the option to feed on its own rage.  It's not the most common thing granted, but it is possible.

So I guess Psy-Kosh is right.  There is no conservation of energy.  I'm going to build a perpetual motion machine out of `cubi and make millions!

Hey, I was trying to work perpetual motion into a joke

[Psy-Kosh]

There has been a couple cases where adventurers have tried walling up a Cubi in expectations of it starving to death only for hundreds of years later unwitting adventurers unearthing a severly pissed on who happened to have the option to feed on its own rage.  It's not the most common thing granted, but it is possible.

Oh, just had another thought... Is that the hidden secret origin of The Incredible Hulk? ("you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...")

[Amber Williams]

Keep in mind the walled Cubi example is very rare...and takes generally a very strong will to pull it off. The average Cubi would waste away quite easily...but if there is a lesson to be learned...never underestimate willpower and the sheer determination of an individual. An easier example would likely be two Cubi married to eachother who play off eachothers emotional favorites to substain eachother.  It's not uncommon for particular emotion-types to hook up due to compatability.

Anyways, I'm here because I want to be.  So thppth!

I'm saying you are trying too hard to come up with a source.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, a fantasy comic is just a fantasy comic, and a race of creatures that can live off emotions is just a race of creatures that can live off emotions.  And that you trying to pin down a logical explanation for it will only result in heartbreak and disapointment.

[Psy-Kosh]

So I guess Psy-Kosh is right.  There is no conservation of energy.  I'm going to build a perpetual motion machine out of `cubi and make millions!

Wait... let's make it a doubly perpetual.

Start with a feline cubi.

Glue a bunch of pieces of toast onto its back. Butter the exposed sides of toast. This, of course, produces the classic cat-toast reaction, resulting in it levitating and spinning. (Similar to the meisner effect)

Now, while spinning, the cubi will be generating emotions of distress/dizzyness/nausea/etc.. Perhaps automatically feeding on them, so the whole thing amplifies.

Now, set things up right and get a bit of that energy into the rotation.

Connect to generator.

[Psy-Kosh]

Keep in mind the walled Cubi example is very rare...and takes generally a very strong will to pull it off. The average Cubi would waste away quite easily...but if there is a lesson to be learned...never underestimate willpower and the sheer determination of an individual. An easier example would likely be two Cubi married to eachother who play off eachothers emotional favorites to substain eachother.  It's not uncommon for particular emotion-types to hook up due to compatability.

How long have Cubi been around? I mean, if the basics of this ability was there, wouldn't eventually those that could do it easily be selected for? (I know they're "relatively recent", but not sure just how recent that is)

Anyways, I'm here because I want to be.  So thppth!

"incoming thpppth! raise thpppth shields!"

I'm saying you are trying too hard to come up with a source.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, a fantasy comic is just a fantasy comic, and a race of creatures that can live off emotions is just a race of creatures that can live off emotions.  And that you trying to pin down a logical explanation for it will only result in heartbreak and disapointment.

Am I overanalyzing this? Yes.

Do I enjoy overanalyzing things like this? Hell yeah!

[Amber Williams]

How long have Cubi been around? I mean, if the basics of this ability was there, wouldn't eventually those that could do it easily be selected for? (I know they're "relatively recent", but not sure just how recent that is)

I think...(and please note all you wikians...I am kinda drugged out at the time so don't hold me to this)...Cubi have existed for around 100,000 years.  They're about the 5th youngest race...no wait...4th...they'd have been 5th if it wasn't for that one event around 9,000 years ago... 

[Psy-Kosh]

How long have Cubi been around? I mean, if the basics of this ability was there, wouldn't eventually those that could do it easily be selected for? (I know they're "relatively recent", but not sure just how recent that is)

I think...(and please note all you wikians...I am kinda drugged out at the time so don't hold me to this)...Cubi have existed for around 100,000 years.  They're about the 5th youngest race...no wait...4th...they'd have been 5th if it wasn't for that one event around 9,000 years ago... 

You are ebil!

Aaanyways, isn't that roughly the time that modern humans are estimated to have existed? And afaik, there has been evolutionary "fine tuning" even in that time.

Oh, what about my simpler question? How much "in comic" time has passed between the start of the comic and now (#752 in case this thread ever gets looked at in the future)

Thankies.

And again, go and get better!

[Amber Williams]

I'd say roughly about 6 months.  Less than a year, but more than a few months have passed.

[Psy-Kosh]

I'd say roughly about 6 months.  Less than a year, but more than a few months have passed.

Okiedokie, thanks. (Just been wondering that)

Oh, and just since the comment under your image said to... let's see, from memory...

*Sings* "take one step, and then again, comeon it's time to go do the mario... swing your arms, from side to side..."

[Jim Halisstrad]

So what you're saying is that their power level is always OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(Is interested in learning facts.  To tired to make since cents scents be coherent.

[Psy-Kosh]

So what you're saying is that their power level is always OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*blinkblink* huh?

[Psy-Kosh]

Wait... am I mixing things up or have you (Amber) said that there used to be humans in the DMFAverse but they dissapeared.

If so, I wonder if I should wonder if that dissapearence is related to the previously mentioned cryptic "that one event around 9,000 years ago"

[Kasarn]

So what you're saying is that their power level is always OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*blinkblink* huh?

Jyrras, what does the scouter say about Abel's power level?
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! <3 <3 <3

Also, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI

[superluser]

Keep in mind the walled Cubi example is very rare...and takes generally a very strong will to pull it off. The average Cubi would waste away quite easily...but if there is a lesson to be learned...never underestimate willpower and the sheer determination of an individual. An easier example would likely be two Cubi married to eachother who play off eachothers emotional favorites to substain eachother.  It's not uncommon for particular emotion-types to hook up due to compatability.

This is not good.  I'm going to explain this with as few equations as possible, so that I don't kill any catgirls.

Let us assume that the walled `cubi are warm-blooded, and that the surrounding environment is lower than their body temperature.  Let us further assume that the walls and the `cubi are not perfect insulators.  What this necessarily means is that they are radiating heat, which they cannot reclaim.  Let's say that they give off 2000 kilocalories per day in heat (that's the USRDA).  In 100 years, that would be 73 million kilocalories, or 73 tons of TNT.

So that means that the `cubi would have to have 73 tons of TNT stored away in their bodies.  But you say that emotional energy can't be stored.  The only other option is that somehow, they are recycling 73 tons of TNT continuously.  That strains credulity.

I mean, seriously.  ``A wizard did it'' would be fine.  Or ``they gain residual amounts from the emotional background radiation.''  Or ``They get that energy from divine intervention.''

I can accept that there's no physics, but partial/bad physics makes me cry.

(psst.  Maybe you ought to focus on getting well and not on answering our dumb questions when you're under the influence of mind-altering chemicals)

[Reese Tora]

Much as I hate to jump into a debate with an overused cliche, I have got to say this.

It's magic.

Creatures, most of them, have abilities (and I'm sure I will be corrected, if I'm wrong) that are essentially magic.  Magic, does it come from somewhere? probably.  Where does it come from? Probably only Falina and Amber know for sure.

I would guess that 'cubi use magic (an invisible, inexhaustible, omnipresent energy source external to a creature) to metabolize raw emotion into the energy thier bodies can use.  Then a self feeding cubi would be more analogous to a hydrogen powered car.  Raw emotion that feeds the 'cubi is like water, and the cubi burns uses magic(energy) to turn emotion(water) into whatever mysterious thing it is that is life(hydrogen)

That, of course, is assuming that cubi are in any way concerned by the laws of thermodynamics.

[Jim Halisstrad]

That, of course, is assuming that cubi are in any way concerned by the laws of thermodynamics.

Obviously demons are concerned, and cubi are +10 sexy.

[Amber Williams]

When Cubi reach a particular level, they don't need to even take in oxygen to breathe. It's hard to put a creature who's physics are completly unnatural into natural terms.  And that isn't even attempting to tack on the magical physics which always put a monkey wrench into logical understandings.   At best I can say that said Cubi exerts 1 point of energy, including that of a particular emotion(for walled case, lets say rage).  They gain supposed 3 energy from said rage back via their particular affinity for that emotion. Repeat cycle.  And as I said, this is a rare case example.  Not the norm in any sense.  It takes an insane amount of discipline and determination to pull it off...and it likely would help if they were powerful to begin with.

As for my 9,000 comment, I wouldn't think too much about applying humans to the scenario.  While beings in DMFA have a similar setup as humans in our world do, they aren't running completly parrallel to our society and a few people have tripped over things not lining up perfectly.