but wait, what is ascension anyways?

[Psy-Kosh]

Okay, so we've got all this speculation about what it takes to ascend to tri-wing, etc... But... what's really the result? Just having super huge amounts of magical energy available? Or is it more than that? How deep are the changes, etc?

Anyways, a possibly silly thought but was just wondering that.

[Tapewolf]

This may well be wrong/has changed since, but my understanding (i.e. educated guess) is that it has at least the following benefits:

1. Immortality

2. Apparently generating your own energy, i.e. you would not need to eat, absorb emotions or consume souls in order to stay alive.  This is presumably the cause of (1)

3. Generating so much surplus energy that it spills out into your own clan members and descendants, increasing their own powers

4. (Optionally?) creating your own clan

5. Getting those snazzy heads on your clan's wing-tentacles

6. Becoming a seriously powerful force in your own right.  AFAIK you're pretty much top of the food chain at that point.  By and large you'd only have to worry about other Tri-wings (or other very powerful 'Cubi), Dragons and Fae.

7. Becoming less vulnerable to conventional attacks.  Demonology says that 'Cubi are vulnerable to "normal damage" (i.e. something that would kill a Being or a human) until they reach a certain power level.  I suspect that's referring to tri-wings (though it may not be).


Disadvantages would seem to be:

1. Extremely hard to do - mass soul-murder seems to be the best approach

2. Supposedly extremely dangerous and risky to pull off, a 6-12% chance of success has been mentioned, though that may not necessarily be the case anymore.  Failure results in death, quite possibly taking your soul out too

3. Becoming less mortal and more ethereal is presumably the cause of sterility in tri-winged clan leaders.

4. Attracting the attention of Dragons/Fae/Other 'Cubi who don't want any competition

[MT Hazard]

Immortality could be seen as a draw back, as could being mentally linked to your entire clan. I suppose cubi would be quite used to the problems associated with lack of bio rhythms (eat, sleep etc)  but these would be worst as a tri wing leader, you could get distracted and decades go by.

[Psy-Kosh]

Tapewolf: 6 and 7 on your list could be simply consequences of the rest, right?

But basically, "really huge amount of power/generating power" (and stuff related to being linked to/head of a clan) are the primary things, with everything else pretty much being just a consequence of those?

(I'd been mainly viewing it that way, but was now thinking/wondering if maybe there was more to it than that)

[jeffh4]

This does make me wonder what Fa'Lina did to achieve Tri-Wing status.  I suspect that's a story we will never hear, unless it's through fan-fiction, or Amber keeps up the comic for another 45 years.

[Tapewolf]

Tapewolf: 6 and 7 on your list could be simply consequences of the rest, right?

6, yes, 7 less so.  'Cubi tend to become less mortal and more magical as they increase in power.  Normal 'Cubi no longer need to eat, drink or ultimately breathe.  If they can enter a state where being shot through the head is no longer enough to kill them, I'd say it was a result of the ascension rather than a side-effect of generating more power than usual.

But basically, "really huge amount of power/generating power" (and stuff related to being linked to/head of a clan) are the primary things, with everything else pretty much being just a consequence of those?

Again, I'd argue that being immune to bullets (if indeed that happens) is another primary thing, rather than a consequence of power generation, but pretty much, yeah.

And of course, there may be more things that we don't know about.

[Keleth]

This may well be wrong/has changed since, but my understanding (i.e. educated guess) is that it has at least the following benefits:

1. Immortality

Cubi are not immortal. Otherwise Zezzuva wouldn't of been able to axe her former clan leader and take her place.

Unless you are referring to the term ageless. Where they do not die due to old age.

They can certainly still be killed, albeit harder to do so.

[Tapewolf]

Cubi are not immortal. Otherwise Zezzuva wouldn't of been able to axe her former clan leader and take her place.
Unless you are referring to the term ageless. Where they do not die due to old age.
They can certainly still be killed, albeit harder to do so.

Immortal does not imply invulnerable.  Not where I'm from, anyway.  If you prefer the term 'ageless', then yes.

EDIT:
Though you touch on an interesting point.  If tri-wings are almost invulnerable to conventional attacks, it's likely that removing their soul is one of the only ways to be sure to kill them.  This is pure speculation, of course.

[Mrs_A_ZeTavia]

Cubi are not immortal. Otherwise Zezzuva wouldn't of been able to axe her former clan leader and take her place.
Unless you are referring to the term ageless. Where they do not die due to old age.
They can certainly still be killed, albeit harder to do so.

Immortal does not imply invulnerable.  Not where I'm from, anyway.  If you prefer the term 'ageless', then yes.

EDIT:
Though you touch on an interesting point.  If tri-wings are almost invulnerable to conventional attacks, it's likely that removing their soul is one of the only ways to be sure to kill them.  This is pure speculation, of course.

I agree with that reasoning of Immortality. A good example would be one of my characters (Slate), he's died before, but has come right back up, been shot at, etc. (Some of you are probably thinking regeneration, right now but there's a difference, if his arm gets cut off he has to reattach it, he can't grow a new one as an example.) Most fun I had was writing the scene where he gets.......ah....."beating the snot"   out of him for non-consensually the president's son! *smiles at the remembrance of that scene*  

[Keleth]

it's likely that removing their soul is one of the only ways to be sure to kill them.

I'm pretty sure that'll work for any type of living/sentient creature.

[Gabi]

'Immortal' literally means unable to die. Not necessarily invulnerable (you may hurt an immortal entity, just not kill him/her/it). So I guess tri-wings are not immortal. Just VERY hard to kill.

[ShadesFox]

Well, by the strictest sense immortal is 'impossible to kill', though most people break down immortality into several categories, unaging, invulnerable, and true immortal.  Unfortunately, most people just use immortal interchangeably, causing confusion.

It is, however, important to note that this does not mean that something that is immortal is perpetual.  After all, what does it mean to kill something?  Did you truly kill it if it never existed at all?  There are techniques for... removing things from space/time such that they never existed... *wiping off hands*.

[Ghostwish]

Every dictionary you check will have varying definitions of the term 'immortal', but the most accepted variant pertains to a being which is incapable of dying via natural causes. Which basically boils down to unless someone offs them, they go on and on forever.

'Course, we'd have to look up Amber's definition of immortal to be clear.

[ShadesFox]

See, problem is that dictionaries are a type of book.  More specifically, a type of book that is full of lies.  Really, look it up in the dictionary.  Does it admit that it is full of lies?  No?  Then clearly it is lying, and subsequently full of lies.

Still, back on the topic of ascension, I'm curious if there can only be one triwing per clan.  Well, politically I would say no and one would kill the other, but is it possible?  This also raises questions regarding the matter of creating new clans.  Is that just impossible, or can a triwing forsake her old clan and start a new one?  Or do 'cubi create a new clan and then someone eventually becomes a triwing?  So many questions, and yet I doubt any of them actually has answers

[SquirrelWizard]

I think what Amber is trying to get at with immortality, is that most standard methods of your life ending naturally do not apply. they do not need to eat, normal diseases do not affect them, they do not age. Their resiliance to damage/magic/harm is likely a side effect of whatever they had to do to become Tri wing in the first place.  This doesn't mean that they cannot die, it just means that it will take some doing.

[Drayco84]

Heh... All immortal really means is that you need an "immortal" weapon to kill it. Plus, it depends on if Tri-Wings are etheral or not. (And judging by how easily Fa'lina smacks people around, I'm assuming that's NOT the case. But, we've seen fae take spears through the chest and forget that they're there. So, who the frig knows?)

And last I checked, vampires are supposedly immortal, but remove their head and PRESTO! They're dead! (Erm, again...) Or, take away enough of their life and/or magical essence, and without the energy needed to keep themselves alive, they'll die that way too.

On the other hand, insane amounts of magical power can make it difficult to approach the subject, and the ability to forsee their next attack makes things even worse. Plus, those wings are made out of some pretty strong stuff, and they shapeshift at will, making them some of the best armor/weapons in all of the furrae-verse. So yes, if you want to kill a tri-wing, the odds are NOT in your favor.

Conversely, if one had a spell or ability that lets them suck out their target's own magical essence, it might even the odds. If one could create small portals kinda like the game Portal, one could also divert attacks right back to the aggressor. (Imagine trying to stab your foe, only for a portal to open in front of your sword, with a second opening right in front of your chest. Yeah, PAINFUL.) Plus, how well/quickly do they heal? Remember that it looks like there's few guns in Amber's world here, and most of those have been made by Jyrras. Heck, if their skin has the density of some metals, low-caliber bullets might lack the punching power to pierce them and hit an organ. (Hmmm... Kevlar skin... Interesting concept...)

[Les]

One thing I'd like to know is what 'immune to normal damage' means in this context.

Obviously we can gather what will not hurt them, such as normal damage delivered via normal means, (i.e. being stabbity with a sword.)

But what will hurt them?  Normal damage delivered via extraordinary means? (i.e. being stabbity with an enchanted sword.)  Or extraordinary damage delivered via 'normal' means?  (i.e being stabbity with the Chrysler Building.) 

[Mrs_A_ZeTavia]

One thing I'd like to know is what 'immune to normal damage' means in this context.

Obviously we can gather what will not hurt them, such as normal damage delivered via normal means, (i.e. being stabbity with a sword.)

But what will hurt them?  Normal damage delivered via extraordinary means? (i.e. being stabbity with an enchanted sword.)  Or extraordinary damage delivered via 'normal' means?  (i.e being stabbity with the Chrysler Building.) 

Wow, I didn't know the Chrysler Building could be used as a sword............ .................you learn something new everyday! 

[Les]

Wow, I didn't know the Chrysler Building could be used as a sword............

Ordinarily no, which is why it's so Extraordinary when you hit somebody with it.   

[Turnsky]

Immortality is in the grasp of those who play their cards right.

[Mao]

...Go fish.

[Mrs_A_ZeTavia]

...Go fish.

I fished..................didn't find any immmortality though, maybe I need better bait.....

Wow, I didn't know the Chrysler Building could be used as a sword............

Ordinarily no, which is why it's so Extraordinary when you hit somebody with it.   

Epic Awesomeness!!! X3

[Mao]

Maybe it's a game of blackjack.. or poker.  Those are fun.  Maybe Uno....

[ShadesFox]

Watch it be a Magic game; me and my deck made of $0.05 cards.

[entropicage]

Wow, I didn't know the Chrysler Building could be used as a sword............

Ordinarily no, which is why it's so Extraordinary when you hit somebody with it.   

That... ummm... Why the Chrysler building? I'm sure there's even more pointy death buildings you can use... like the space needle! 

[Drayco84]

Maybe it's a game of blackjack.. or poker.  Those are fun.  Maybe Uno....

*Plays a Wild Draw 4*

I call blue, so draw Mao, draw. Oh, and UNO.

[Shachza]

One thing I'd like to know is what 'immune to normal damage' means in this context.

Obviously we can gather what will not hurt them, such as normal damage delivered via normal means, (i.e. being stabbity with a sword.)

But what will hurt them?  Normal damage delivered via extraordinary means? (i.e. being stabbity with an enchanted sword.)  Or extraordinary damage delivered via 'normal' means?  (i.e being stabbity with the Chrysler Building.) 

The Chrysler Building is still "normal" damage, it's just a LOT of it.

You need some sort of supernatural effect to kill such a creature.  Whether it be nukes that do damage to souls above and beyond what they do to bodies, wipe out the capabilty to enact or engage in heirarchies from every thing in existence, or just find the dagger whose fate it is to slay your target...

Or you can just stabbity with a +5 Sword of Snickersnack.

[Drayco84]

Hmmm... I wonder if a Death Note would still work here...

Heck, I wonder how well Jehuty would stand up to some of these creatures...

Ooooooh! How 'bout diseases?! Ya know, those kind that slowly suck out the life essence from your body?

How 'bout leeches? Giant spiders? (Yes, a little hard to live when your organs are being digested while you're still alive...) Drowning? Instant-death magic? Whoops, that only has a high success rate on PROTAGONISTS, it never works on major bosses/villians.

[Turnsky]

...Go fish.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/cubithaelithbattlesketch.jpg

[Les]

One thing I'd like to know is what 'immune to normal damage' means in this context.

Obviously we can gather what will not hurt them, such as normal damage delivered via normal means, (i.e. being stabbity with a sword.)

But what will hurt them?  Normal damage delivered via extraordinary means? (i.e. being stabbity with an enchanted sword.)  Or extraordinary damage delivered via 'normal' means?  (i.e being stabbity with the Chrysler Building.) 

The Chrysler Building is still "normal" damage, it's just a LOT of it.

You need some sort of supernatural effect to kill such a creature.  Whether it be nukes that do damage to souls above and beyond what they do to bodies, wipe out the capabilty to enact or engage in heirarchies from every thing in existence, or just find the dagger whose fate it is to slay your target...

Or you can just stabbity with a +5 Sword of Snickersnack.

Maybe, but I'd like to get some more info on that.  After all, "Protection from Normal Missiles" IIRC could be circumvented by using +1 arrows, or by throwing Boulders at the target.   

So what happens when, say....

[Being] "I shoots you with the Gun!"

[Tri-Wing Cubi] "Ha-ha, that tickles."

[Being] "I shoots you with the magic bows and arrows!"

[TWC] "OW!  Hey!"

[Being] "I shoots you with the Bazooka!"

[TWC] "N-now, now just wait a minute here... *BOOM!*  Owwwww..."