(Amber vs Computers: Rd 4) *update: Culprit found*

[Amber Williams]

Typing from my husbands computer.

Went out this evening due to a friends birthday, left the computer on while I was away. Got back and the screen had locked up. Not the end of the world...isn't the first time the compy froze on me. Turned off power, waited a moment, turned power back on.

Computer started up...then started down.

Tried again. Same result.

I am pretty sure the guilty party is the cooling and that the computer is just overly warm at the moment. I dont even get to the point where the computer *beeps* in startup but it seems more like it tries to start...realizes its too warm...so just shuts back down.

Right now I am letting my computer sit unplugged for a bit before I hit it with the compressed air and try to turn it on again. I'm relatively optimistic it will restart, but I'll have to keep an eye on things.  Either way, I think even worst case, it is just one part that is causing the problem. (The power supply I think it is? The one that is pretty much a box with a small fan.)  It's unsettlingly warm and so I think its just too toasty in there right now.

I'll keep you updated. In a bit I will be airing it out and trying to turn it on. If that doesnt work, I'll probably leave it for the night then try again. If that still doesnt work...I guess I'll go from there.

Either way, just wanted to give everyone a heads up.  If it does become an issue, I'll post on the main page and take the computer in Monday so it should be back up by the update after.

Blah. Computers. They are butt-faces.

[Jack McSlay]

What de you mean Started up and then started down? If it boots up and then shows an error screen, it's probably a hardware foult or some seriously corrupted system files. But if it boots and then start the shutdown or reboot sequence shortly thereafter, it's probably just a shortcut to a shutdown/reboot command on autostart

[Amber Williams]

There is no error screen. It doesnt even get to the part where its trying to start stuff up.

Its like I push the button, the fans start up for a second or two...then the fans shut down. Nothing on screen. So I am pretty sure its not a file corruption because I dont think the files are even getting a chance to load.

[Jack McSlay]

Could be the power source, but if you're using an Intel processor, could be the processor fan, as some Intel processors shut down the system when it overheats

[inuhanyo]

That does sound like a power supply problem.  Power supplies are one of the more common components that fail in computers, hopefully yours is a standard model, thus easy to find a replacement for.

[seuta]

Power supplies do get quite warm naturally, as they have so much current going through them.  Is your computer out in an open environment, out of the sun  or direct intensive light, the various vent fans not covered/obstructed by anything, especially the wall? 

Hopefully it's the power supply, though I had a similar problem a couple years ago.  Push the power button, everything would come on and then it'd just turn itself off.  Wasn't a power supply problem, the processor had died.  

[Amber Williams]

Yeah. Everything else seemed relatively ok. And like I said...if the thing isn't even getting to load-up...I am pretty sure the problem isn't in the files.

Right now 'm just waiting to see if its something I can at least turn off after a bit of cool-down or if I am going to have to take it into the shop right away.  Thankfully I still have a little saved up from the donations so unless this sucker requires 400+ bucks of repairs...I hopefully will be able to handle. If I recall, power supplies are not the most brutal of cost to replace.

But yeah...right now just going to see if the computer will start up after its had some cool down time.  Either way, I am incredibly confident that the actual contents of the computer are fine and that its something to do with heating or power supply.

[Amber Williams]

UPDATE:

The computer seems to be running again after letting it cool for a bit and a good run through of compressed air. Gonna leave it off for the night and start keeping an eye on it.

Definately think its the power supply and it just got overheated. Either way, I'll watch it for a bit to see if it keeps causing trouble.

[icarus]

good news is if it's the power supply, they're cheap on desktops (25$ if i recall from newegg.com was the one i got once) and really, really easy to install.

it was the first thing i ever replaced in a desktop...back when i was so naive i didn't even know how to install a drive. ah, bygone days of ignorance.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

IIRC, Amber's machine is a little higher spec, and needs a larger PSU. Something about thirsty CPUs and thirsty graphics cards. But that's just from memory. I'm sure Mason can help her out figuring it out.

[Turnsky]

IIRC, Amber's machine is a little higher spec, and needs a larger PSU. Something about thirsty CPUs and thirsty graphics cards. But that's just from memory. I'm sure Mason can help her out figuring it out.

sounds like it, either the PSU needs cleaning or amber needs to shoot for something upmarket.  either way, not an overly expensive fix, a good PSU isn't an immensely expensive replacement.

Later on down the road, it might be wise to look into cases with better airflow/dust filters.

just thought, if one can (i have no allusions as to amber's computer tech skills, so one of the others may be able to do this.) carefully remove the fan from the CPU heatsink (if it's a base model, they usually are able to do this) and with a can of air, or in lieu of that, a soft paintbrush, clean any dust from the fan and heatsink, sometimes dust likes to cake in under where the fan sits and can be a pain to remove otherwise.

[RobbieThe1st]

good news is if it's the power supply, they're cheap on desktops (25$ if i recall from newegg.com was the one i got once) and really, really easy to install.

it was the first thing i ever replaced in a desktop...back when i was so naive i didn't even know how to install a drive. ah, bygone days of ignorance.

I must warn against those $25 PSUs - often times they will not even produce half of what they are rated for; and even then the power is "dirty" and can cause problems.
They can even explode!

Case in point:
I have a friend who - against my suggestions - got a cheap PSU off newegg. It was rated highly, and was well-overpowered for his lightweight system.
It worked for a little while, then died. When it died, it took his motherboard, RAM, and harddisk also. He was lucky in that he was able to RMA most of the broken components, so he only ended up spending an extra $60 or so getting the other components replaced.
He invested in a -quality- Corsair model, and has had no trouble with it since.

IIRC, Amber's machine is a little higher spec, and needs a larger PSU. Something about thirsty CPUs and thirsty graphics cards. But that's just from memory. I'm sure Mason can help her out figuring it out.

Which makes the problem even more crucial. The more power you draw from a cheap power supply, the worse it comes out as a general rule.


However, the fact that Amber's PC survived this and still boots leads me to believe that she already has a good one in her PC and probably doesn't need to replace it.


-Robbie

[icarus]

yeep, exploding is not a good thing.

however newegg.com has a pretty good user review/rating system, and the users are all hardcore nerds and not afraid of tearing a part to bits just because "the fan is noisy" or whatever in their reviews.

i'd say if something lands in happy medium between price and good reviews on that site, it's a safe bet. i've never gone wrong with them in the past.

are you sure your friend didn't get a lemon? newegg reviews are generally very truthful/helpful. i mean granted if it's only got 6 reviews, not a good basis to go from...but when you're getting into 40 or so?

[Jack McSlay]

Back in college, I had an internship for keeping the computers functional. Over 100 of them, all using generic power sources and whenever there were hardware problems it was rarely the power source. And when it was, it was just the fan gone dead - just because it's a $25 PSU doesn't mean it'll blow in one month

My guess is that it could just be a dead fan or the computer was made with a power source with an actual limit too close to the system needs (like, a 400W power source in a 380W system). both which explains  why it blow just now

[RobbieThe1st]

Back in college, I had an internship for keeping the computers functional. Over 100 of them, all using generic power sources and whenever there were hardware problems it was rarely the power source. And when it was, it was just the fan gone dead - just because it's a $25 PSU doesn't mean it'll blow in one month

However, it doesn't mean it -won't-. Though above about $50, price isn't an indicator; you can easily have an improperly made high-end PSU which doesn't perform up to spec.

One thing to keep in mind is that over the years, the over-rating factor of cheap PSUs has increased. So a cheap "400w" model back then isn't the same as a cheap "400w" model now.

Also, any system built by a large company or professional outfit generally will have a PSU which will be perfectly sufficient for the operation of the device; This however isn't the same as when you are making your own and buying parts off Newegg, unless you do your research well.

yeep, exploding is not a good thing.

however newegg.com has a pretty good user review/rating system, and the users are all hardcore nerds and not afraid of tearing a part to bits just because "the fan is noisy" or whatever in their reviews.

i'd say if something lands in happy medium between price and good reviews on that site, it's a safe bet. i've never gone wrong with them in the past.

are you sure your friend didn't get a lemon? newegg reviews are generally very truthful/helpful. i mean granted if it's only got 6 reviews, not a good basis to go from...but when you're getting into 40 or so?

With PSUs, I wouldn't trust newegg reviews; I only suggest trusting a good in-depth review that hooks the PSU in question up to a proper load-simulator. Plugging in a bare-bones PC and saying "Oh! it boots up! It must be good!" just doesn't cut it when your $500+ computer is on the line.

It becomes even more of an issue when you have a high-end computer; Instead of your 400W(really 250W) PSU having to put out 200W and keeping it running, your comp needs 300-350+ and the PSU right up and fails.

As far as "dirty" power and ripple... Sometimes it causes problems, sometimes not. You need an oscilloscope to detect it, and your average computer user probably doesn't have one at hand.

Also, some of these problems may only manifest with heat; someone living in California will probably have a worse time with a borderline product than someone in North Dakot(A cheap trick is rating the PSU's wattage at 20C ambient... Which is nigh impossible to have in a real PC environment).

And of course you have tolerance to worry about - Electronic components come in standard tolerances up to 20%, though 10% is generally a standard as far as high-tolerance components. This means that, for a given component, it can either be 10% better, or 10% worse than it is rated. So(ignoring the cumulative effects of these tolerances on the many components inside a PSU), your 250W power supply could be anywhere from 225W to 275W. This makes a real difference if the computer is close to the limit.

That being said, I would prefer to trust the quality tests to someone who has proper equipment; In the case of PSUs, Newegg is good for seeing if there was a bad run of something, but I would still check a trusted reviewing site before buying.

I apoligise if some of this didn't make sense, I am quite tired right now.

Hope this helps in some way,

-Robbie

[Amber Williams]

Found the culprit when I turned on the pc with the case partially off to be able to see it in the light. (Hard to check some things at night)

The small fan on the powersupply (Or the big box with 500 watts written on it) is no longer moving...which probably is the reason the thing overheated and refused to go for a bit.  So I'm not sure if that means I need a new one entirely or just a new mini fan.

But yeah. It's sunday...so not a lot of tech stores open.  And I admit I don't know enough of what I'm doing to try this solo in person and as much as I love you guys...there is just some things that are better explained in person than over the internets.  Mason is at work, and while I can turn my computer on...without that fan I'm not too confident running my PC right now and I really would rather not risk having it go blargh on me.

Gonna call a couple friends and see what can be what.  But yeah, right now its likely I will have to put DMFA on hold for one more day one more time since I am gonna guess running a behemoth like Photoshop is not something I should be doing on a powersupply that has no fan.

I'll keep you all updated.

[Turnsky]

*Heap o' text*
-Robbie

Translation: Sometimes a PSU rating isn't as advertised. (seriously dude, Amber doesn't work at MIT)

Edit in lieu of update: well there's your problem </mythbusters>

[Amber Williams]

On one hand, I'm relatively happy the problem is so easily seen.

It's a lot easier to be like "Little fan on box no work, make box hot and computer no run. Fix little fan or little box." and throw money at a new part and all is well...than having to deal with some software issue.

I am starting to suspect that perhaps my recent problems with Photoshop have been now it just causing the thing to go "oh screw this!" and lock up due to processing heat.  So yeah...not sure if you can just replace the fan or you gotta get a whole new supply. But I'll be looking into getting that done ASAP. If its a simple replacement and easy to aquire part, I may get one of my friends to just install.  If not, I know a good place that handles computers really well which I could go to on Monday.

[Tapewolf]

It may be possible to repair the fan itself.  I had one go on a server at work and it had simply gummed up with dust.  I managed to dismantle it, lubricate it with bicycle grease and it was right as rain.
I guess the real question is whether the PSU was permanently damaged or whether it just went into some kind of self-protection mode.

But yeah, one of the machines I had at work had a PSU fan failure which went undetected for a long time.  When the problem finally became apparent it began to reboot itself continuously and when I opened it up, the case inside was too hot to touch.  That one was permanently fried at the motherboard level, though the disk survived fine.

[Buhamet]

I had a similar problem s few years ago.

I got round it by putting a desk fan behind the computer so it blew air into the computer, until I could repair it

[Amber Williams]

It may be possible to repair...but I'm very much not the type who wants to be fiddling around with the inner workings of my computer. 

But anyways. It looks like the computer wont run for longer than 5 minutes before it declares itself time out and just shuts down, so I think there is a trigger in there saying "too hot. Time to stop before anything gets damaged"  My guess is the issues I was having a couple days ago was the fan on the power supply sputtering out and now its pretty much toast.

Mason wont be home till late evening and its Sunday so I doubt many places are going to be open for power supplies or their fans. So it looks like I'm kind of out of a spot cause I'd rather not run risk of trying to keep my computer going if I know that at this time, nothing but the power supply is broken.

I should be able to get the pc fixed Monday no problem since thats Masons day off. So woo. Fun times for all.

[ShadesFox]

Mucking around with repairing computer parts tends not to be fun.  Especially when the inner working is part of a power supply which is typically pushing through enough electricity to kill you 

It is also possible that there was some sort of damage to the PSU because of the heat, so buying a whole 'new' replacement is a good idea.  New in quotes because you could always get something after market...

For a new power supply you should be spending at least $100 to get something that isn't a liability.  Preferably with the '80 plus' label.

[Gamma]

You can get away with a good 500Watt power supply for less then $100, online. Locally, yeah it's gonna be more.

For alot of people once they get over the fear, changing most components are no hard task.

Also, check and see if you can RMA that old PSU, that way when you get the replacement back you will have a nice spare handy for whatever.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Yeah. You're probably offline by now, but as Tapewolf, Shades, and Gamme have said, it's probably simplest to replace the PSU.

You could possibly get it to work by putting more fans in the case, but you'd be better off replacing it. Although I'll leave it to the experts who have it in front of them to provide you a precise answer.

And yes, as you surmise, that would create your problems with photoshop shutting down, along with other issues. You might want to talk to them about putting more fans in the case while they're at it - mention you run it in a warm room, because you do art on it and want your fingers to not freeze up; that indicates you run photoshop in a big way in a hot area, and suggests more temperature monitoring or moderating may be useful.

Adding another fan usually makes the thing louder, but will help keep it cooler. And really, the coolness factor is the important part, when you're stressing it. And I'd suggest that you probably stress the machine more than most people here, purely because you do a lot of photoshop stuff, and that's one of the biggies.

[Chakat Blackspots]

Make sure you buy a Corsair branded PSU, they are great power supplies, are 80 plus certified and have higher rated parts in them than other PSU's, though you can buy a Seasonic PSU and they would work just as well.

Also, Antec and Enermax are good brands.

[Jack McSlay]

Mucking around with repairing computer parts tends not to be fun.  Especially when the inner working is part of a power supply which is typically pushing through enough electricity to kill you  :

Not too likely. PSUs have regulations that include protection against shocks. Also the voltage levels aren't high enough to warrant lethal damage, and repairing the fan doesn't require touching the circuitry anyway - the fan is typically connected to the PSU via a wire, thus it's easy to replace or fix it risk-free.

But as Tapewolf said, it might be good taking it to an expert anyway, there's no other means of knowing if something else has toasted since Amber has left her PC unattendeed fer hours. Although it really does seem it's just shutting itself down to prevent damage. PSUs that ignore overheating usually just watch the world burn

And yes, as you surmise, that would create your problems with photoshop shutting down, along with other issues. You might want to talk to them about putting more fans in the case while they're at it - mention you run it in a warm room, because you do art on it and want your fingers to not freeze up; that indicates you run photoshop in a big way in a hot area, and suggests more temperature monitoring or moderating may be useful.

That's not a good solution. The computer is not overheating because the cooling system is not enough for the ambience temperature (she's in Canada for crap's sake, and even if she turns on a heater, temperatures high enough to make PCs malfunction are rarely comfortable), it's overheating because a fan went off.
Extra fans do not offer enough air flow to effectively replace or act as backup cooling system. Poorly planned fan positioning could even make refrigeration worst.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

...

I wasn't suggesting that adding another fan would be instead of replacing the PSU. I was suggesting that, since she's already burnt one out, it might be a good idea to get some sort of monitoring on the ones that are already in there.

An additional fan would be something to discuss with the guys who are looking at her PC, as an optional extra to help it remain stable under high pressure, since she's already mentioned instability in photoshop in the past.

[Watani]

Interestingly enough, I also had this sort of problem happen to me, except with a laptop.  I spent ages trying to figure out what was wrong, but I just couldn't find it.  The fans were all working fine, and power was coming from the PSU.  All that I knew was that the laptop was overheating for some unknown reason.

It later turned out to be the AC adapter, which was broken from overuse and was providing power that heated up the laptop too fast for the fans to compensate.  The AC adapter had even burned out a newly bought battery that I tried to charge!  After I replaced the adapter, the laptop started working again.

Replacing the fan may be good enough, but it would be a good idea to also check whether the PSU is working properly.  Otherwise the fan may break again if the PC heats up faster than it should and the fan tries to keep up with the temperature.

[Rambon]

Mab, I honest suggest that you get a expert to look at it *bring it to a computer store* and tell you the best course of action with the fan.

[Amber Williams]

Yeah. I know a pretty good place that I usually go to take the computer in. Its the place that fixed the computer last time and they did really good work. I think I'll probably take it in on Monday, have it cleaned and look into either fixing or repairing the PSU (I'll let them check it out and figure out the best course of action) and let them check to make sure nothing else was damaged with it being on.

It shouldn't take too long unless they have a lot of other customers. So hopefully I will get my compy back in time to update Abel's Story on Thursday no problems.

In the meantime I guess I'll get sketching.