04/04/08 [Hybrid #3]

[Gamma]

An arrow would do the trick ehh? Makes me wonder about guns.

I know Wildy's novel touched on the idea of guns but I can't remember if guns exist in Furrae or not and/or their effectiveness.

[Fuyudenki]

It's not really all that broken.  Neither species is insanely powerful. Yeah, they have particular quirks that really make them useful...but they also have particular flaws that are exploitable if you know them. People seem to think that the Were's ability to null magic at them when in human form and the Cubi's shapeshifting gives them god-hax powers.  All it really takes to take them down would be one well-placed arrow.

Oooh, arrows.  I learned about those earlier today.  An RP character of mine got one between the eyes.

[Amber Williams]

Some guns exist...but definately not enough to be considered on scale with the weaponry we have.  They are sort of a novelty more than a serious weapon...mainly cause there are much more easily convenient magical alternatives.  That and the average gun is really only good if you were a being killing another being.

The average demon wouldnt even be phased by a bullet normally...and guns/bullets seem to have a mediocre reaction to having enchancments put upon them so they cant really be modified enough to really make an impact on the more magical creatures.  Not to mention the blam noise (there arent really any silencers yet) causes most creatures to automatically shield-up so you cant really get a good drop on them even if they could.

As such, guns are mainly just novelty devices and not really considered the serious arsenal like they would be considered here.  Granted, if the weapons that exist here were available in the Furrae worldframe..it would possibly be a different story.  But I figure thats a given.

[Fresnor]

Not including certain... 'farming' implements, right Amber?

[Kuari]

I'm guessing the keyword here is average though...  at least I'd hope...  I mean, anything Jy made would probably be good..

Not to mention though, I wonder...  is it possible to enchant arrows effectively?  If so, what's so hard about enchanting a lump of iron effectively?
This is going under the assumption that DMFA guns are at the level the first chinese guns were.

Yeah yeah, I'm bringing logic into the arguement...  so sue me..
Just saying though...  on the otherhand, you did say AVERAGE, so I imagine that means there are a few who got it right, they just may or may not pop in the comic.

[Amber Williams]

Oh it isnt the bullets that are causing the problem, its the weapon that fires it.  For some reason, complex weaponry has a wierd effect when it comes to magic.  Trying to put an echanted bullet in a gun will more than likely just cause the gun itself to lock up and be unusable.  On the other hand, enchanting a solid piece of metal or a bit of wood with string is snarking easy.

Jyrras would likely be able to explain this occurance better since he actually has research on the topic.  At a casual glance though, it could be said that magic and science have a strange effect on eachother and that there is a certain balance.  Where as when the balance is off, things just dont work very well in some aspects while it works fabulous in others.

A good example would be Matilda mentioning Jycorps items having little magical residue on them and how they are great for imprinting a magical signature on for pocket-dimension houses.  They work great due to little magical residue already on them to mess up the magic.  But using magic on them to "improve" the functions they do already...tends to just make em asplode.

[Kuari]

Though the oldest guns ARE basically just a metal tube with a fuse sticking out of it...  guessing its the powder that does it?

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, I just like satiating my hyperactive curiousity

[Amber Williams]

Dont worry.

Once I get sick of people asking questions, I simply just stop responding for a couple months.

[RobbieThe1st]

Hm... Why has no one thought up the obvious solution: A 'magic' powered 'gun' - Basically a metal tube with a hunk of something heavy in it and a cap at one end - Pour magic energy into it, and when you release the energy, the hunk of something heavy goes shooting out the open end, at a speed proportional to the amount of magic invested in it. Probably more or less quiet when properly designed, and would make for easy aiming.

Of course, the next step would be to take hunks of heavy stuff and enchant it with as much magic as possible in an unstable enchantment - When the device is 'fired', the magic enchantment on the 'gun' breaks the enchantment on the 'bullet', and directs it into accelerating the 'bullet' away from the cap at the back of the 'gun'.

In other words, a simple gun that uses magic instead of gun powder.


-RobbieThe1st

[Jadian]

...But using magic on them to "improve" the functions they do already...tends to just make em asplode.

Or have other unfortunate effects, such as panel #4 here?

First thing that brought to mind.

[Tapewolf]

Not to mention the blam noise (there arent really any silencers yet) causes most creatures to automatically shield-up so you cant really get a good drop on them even if they could.

Actually the blam is the shockwave from the bullets breaking the sound barrier
With a thought-reader or some other magical way of detecting they're going to be shot at they'll be laughing, but I don't think sound is going to be it...

**EDIT**
In any case, if you miss, or if you have more than one target, you won't get a second shot in.

[Amber Williams]

Outside of Cubi, there arent a whole lot of creatures that have a high tendency of thought-reading.  And like I said once before...Cubi are far from a common race.   Even despite that, an adventurer with less than one month of training knows enough how to make themselves undetectable via magical and thought-reading means. Its not a very difficult thing to do.

[Tapewolf]

Outside of Cubi, there arent a whole lot of creatures that have a high tendency of thought-reading.

I was thinking it could be done as a learned spell.  Though if it's as easy as you say to completely conceal your mind, there's probably not a lot of point in learning 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Its not a very difficult thing to do.

Wokka wokka. ;-]

[Jack McSlay]

Not to mention the blam noise (there arent really any silencers yet)

I even question how effectively silent a silencer would be, considering a lot of people on furrae have enough hearing capacity to hear a silenced gun from a considerable distance. Try making a silencer that a canid doesn't hear...

[Fuyudenki]

Of course, that brings to mind the fact that guns are LOUD! even to human ears, especially larger variants from a fairly close distance.(My dad has a revolver that I feel in my chest when he shoots it, even if I'm 30 feet behind him)  To the heightened hearing ability of your average Being/Creature, it's going to be even worse.

Though nothing you couldn't do with a properly-aimed Thunderclap spell, which would have less collateral damage, as well.

I like this justification for the romantic fantasy elements of DMFA, especially since Jyrras's lab indicates a potential that their technology level is actually beyond that of Earth.

While I can think up several ways to make a magic-powered gun(my favorite?  Mass Accellerator using temporary gravity wells.), what's the point, really?  Conservation of energy suggests that pitching a rock with someone using a gravity/telekenesis spell won't be nearly as effective as simply setting off a gravity well in the middle of their chest.  Blunt damage vs. "Your head in-splode."

[Kibin]

Incidentally, something I'm really really REALLY curious about now thanks to dragons seemingly being able to breed with anything so far...

How do dragon half-breeds work? Are they like cubi in that the traits appear later? Does it create a standard fantasy 'half-dragon', or a full dragon? Or do you just get a regular being/whatever hybrid?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

While I can think up several ways to make a magic-powered gun(my favorite?  Mass Accellerator using temporary gravity wells.), what's the point, really?  Conservation of energy suggests that pitching a rock with someone using a gravity/telekenesis spell won't be nearly as effective as simply setting off a gravity well in the middle of their chest.  Blunt damage vs. "Your head in-splode."

Range.

Depending on how you generate the gravity well, you may be limited in how far from the "gun" you can create the well. If so, limiting it to ~6ft or so means you can set up a hell of a fast shot, which means wind and curvature of the fire are negligible, making it easier to hit something - point and click interface.

On the other hand, generating a gravity well is indeed a nice, clean, neat method of making a hole in someone.

On the gripping hand, thermodynamics suggests that generating a large enough well to fire a 18g slug at mach 10 or so is much easier than generating enough of a field to crush someone's chest into mush. Maybe.


It's all a bit hand-wavey, though. And who doesn't like a nice Rube Goldberg machine, anyway?

[Tapewolf]

It's all a bit hand-wavey, though. And who doesn't like a nice Rube Goldberg machine, anyway?

Heath Robinson?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

It's all a bit hand-wavey, though. And who doesn't like a nice Rube Goldberg machine, anyway?

Heath Robinson?

Same diff. The yanks all call it after theirs, the Tommies after their own. I'd guess this labels you a Tommy, and me a hybrid who can speak either way. ;-]

[Gamma]

I really thank you for clearing that up Amber.



My own little idea for a gun would be a single action revolver that includes a magical dampening field either built into the gun or an item in close proximity, assuming you can actually make a field portable much less enchant it to the gun without jamming it.
The reason for the field would be for the rounds the gun fires, these would be enchanted for better effectiveness on creatures of any type.
There are two rounds, one explosive, one compressive, i.e. a vortex. Alternate firing of the rounds would help get around the defenses of different creatures. Unless they could heal very quickly alternating those forces would liquefy the insides of the enemy.

This gun is overly complicated compared with the rail gun like ideas already mentioned. It also has weaknesses such as needing to aim for the same location multiple times and the whole getting the drop on one enemy at a time.
I only still like the idea cause well, its mine, and I like making complicated things.


As for a semi-auto vs. revolver for problems with magic, its kinda a tossup. We would just have to ask Jyrras since he's done the research on the interactions of magic and technology.

[Kibin]

As for the gun, why not simply have some sort of magic nullifying effect on the gun itself? You don't need the enchantment on the bullets when you fire, just when it hits the other guy.

[Amber Williams]

I should also make mention of this:

I am not a gun expert...nor a weapon-freak in general.  I dont dig gun-talk and honestly...that last post Gamma made is like moonspeak to me.  And I can't find myself caring enough to delve on the subject anymore. 

It shouldnt be a suprise that besides story-reasons...a factor of why there is little weapon technology is I simply dont like drawing it and I dont have the energy/devotion to research it enough to be accurate. And I dislike writing stuff that gives the opening for people to easily pick apart due to them having more knowledge on the subject than myself.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Bweeeheehee.

And, of course, she's the author. If she don't want to draw it, it ain't there.


Which means theorise all you like, punks, there ain't gonna be no guns in the story. End of subject. ;-]

(of course, I'm not gonna let that stop me theorising ;-] )

[Tapewolf]

Bweeeheehee.  And, of course, she's the author. If she don't want to draw it, it ain't there.

Indeed: "There aren't any guns because I don't like them" would have been a perfectly valid excuse 

Which means theorise all you like, punks, there ain't gonna be no guns in the story. End of subject. ;-]

Oh, but there are... we've got this horrible situation looming where the Council finds out that Jyrras has been making them (I'm assuming that Albanion is keeping that to himself... for now).

[Fuyudenki]

Magical phase cannon

That seems overly complicated.  When you get down to it, a gun is a very simple machine: a blast chamber with a movable cap which is sent down a straight shaft for guidance when the blast goes off, and a couple of levers, usually spring-loaded, to set off the blast in a controlled way.  Most complexities are in how exactly the detonation works, and the question of feeding a new round into the chamber and ejecting the old one.

And that's apparently enough to conflict with a spell.

So you're adding a dampening field to the structure, itself a kind of magic, in attempt to protect the mechanics from magical interference making things go BLOOEY.  This seems to me like it would either gunk up the mechanisms itself, or be quite complex to tune to a point where it won't gunk anything up.  Now yes, this is a permanent fixture, so you can spend some time on it, and pay some extra cash to have a skilled magic-user do the enchantment(I've got Iron Kingdoms Gunmages running around in my head here), but you end up with one very expensive weapon that way, plus ammunition which has to be enchanted, as well.  Depending on the price, it might be cheaper just to cash in on a couple of Shield spells and an uber-enchanted sword or bow.

And this is still a precision instrument with lots of power going on in it.  Adding complexity upon complexity like that is also adding failure points, and as you add more failure points, the probability of failure increases exponentially, until you're pretty much taking your life in your own hands just by handling the thing.

I thought the idea of grenades was "pull the pin and throw," not "pull pin and hold in hand."

Go ahead and use it.  I'd just prefer if you'd keep a reasonable distance while doing so.

[Brunhidden]

when Europeans first settled on America they found that their 'superior' guns may have been more damaging then an arrow and often had greater range, but native arrows could be fired at like five times the rate, were readily available, and the users had great skill with them.

arguing technology in the furrae universe is kind of the same- you may introduce guns, but the fact that theres plenty of people who do just fine with swords and bows means they aren't going to catch on unless they have some very special advantage- which in a world with magic they just don't have.

and, of course, jyjy is the exception to all the rules. he may be capable of creating super advanced items, but the bulk of the world is still run by local blacksmiths and small henry ford style factories that probably use trolls instead of cranes or whatever. Jyjy may be able to make some kind of sniper rifle that can send a five pound depleted uranium slug two miles to cleanly remove the head of an offending demon with stealth and safety- but virtually every other gun in existence is probably more akin to the aincent chinese guns that look like a dog or a dragon and because people get the job of making them not by experience but by writing the best poetry about iron (im serious, in china for the longest time your exam to get government jobs was to write poetry, thus leading to many things which were made a lot crappier then they appear) well, those kind of guns tended to explode about one in five firings in a humorous banana peel way.

in a way it makes you wonder why Jyrras hasn't taken over the world yet, what with being the only (to hte best of our knowledge) dude that has giant mecha and the tech prowess to give people super powers if he darn well wanted to.



then again, you could bypass nonmagical guns by using quasi magical explosives- instead of gunpowder use freaky shit like pheonix feathers, dragon spunk, bat guano, and three hairs off of a heros butt collected at 1:43 in the morning and soaked in fey tears. however i would not want to be anywhere within three miles of the first moron to actually try to ignite that, however collecting the hairs might be fun.

[Alondro]

*Charles thinks Caster Guns from Outlaw Star would work!*  They fire spells!  That would be awesome!  And I'll bet Jyrras would be the one to invent them!  Or... has he already in that secret lab of his!   

*Charline suspects hse understands why technology and magic do not mesh... yes yes...*  I seem, it's all so simple!  I can rule the multiverse with this knowledge!   

[Ren Gaulen]

*Charles thinks Caster Guns from Outlaw Star would work!*  They fire spells!  That would be awesome!  And I'll bet Jyrras would be the one to invent them!  Or... has he already in that secret lab of his!   

Hells, yeah, Caster guns!!! A number 13 shell would be enough to take down anyone but fae - it almost took down Hazanko, after all!

I wonder if Jyrras would also build something like XGP15A-II?... Daniel would make an awesome star captain!

[e_voyager]

I think that there there are actually 26 types of cast shells i believe and the most dangerous ones are the 9, the 13, and the 4. i forget as it has been years since I've seen the series and cartoon net work never shows the swimsuit planet one which explains the caster shells where are actually some form of Tao spell as opposed to programed matter like i thought they were. but those caster shells i mentioned before? then need more then magic they acutely drain off part of your life as the price of their power.