So this one time I was sitting there thinking about DMFA stuff, and I got to thinking: Cubi don't eat food. They feed off of emotions.
So then I started to wonder: if they don't eat food, how do they maintain that perfect body weight? Does it depend on how many emotions they feed off of? Will Cubi get fat if they feed off too many emotions? Will they lose weight if they don't feed on enough? Is there some kind of magical property that keeps them at perfect body weight at all times?
Or am I just thinking on this too much? :B
Quote from: PetFriendAmy on March 19, 2010, 11:44:20 AM
Is there some kind of magical property that keeps them at perfect body weight at all times?
Cubi are naturally good looking as per their nature.. that said it'd prolly be more along the lines of "Amber doesn't wish to shift character models much if at all"
Quote
Or am I just thinking on this too much? :B
Just accept that it is what it is, you'll sleep better that way. :U
Quote from: PetFriendAmy on March 19, 2010, 11:44:20 AM
So then I started to wonder: if they don't eat food, how do they maintain that perfect body weight? Does it depend on how many emotions they feed off of? Will Cubi get fat if they feed off too many emotions? Will they lose weight if they don't feed on enough? Is there some kind of magical property that keeps them at perfect body weight at all times?
Maybe you're overthinking it but you're not alone.
If I were designing the 'Cubi race like a piece of technology, I'd try to add a limiter so that it self-stabilised and they didn't become overweight (unless they wished to via shapeshifting). They would become underweight if they starved, but I think it's sensible to assume that whatever mechanism allows them to feed on emotions is able to synthesize the components needed for their metabolism to run (and to repair their bodies).
What I really want to know about is if they eat and feed on emotions, like Abel does, and like Aniz presumably did while he was being Cid. That might put them overweight, though again, if I were designing them I'd try to make the emotion absorption mechanism silently reject the excess emotions if they didn't need them.
Hmm, i have my own theory little similar to tapewolfs'
You see, all in all, it seems magic has little problems converting matter to energy. (Abel explaining how only the structure is the difficult part - creating pure substances is easy)
This would mean , since such conversions (i am going to assume that instead of pure conversion they just rip stuff (air or whatever) to nucleons and reconstitute whatever material instantly as it requires somewhat less energy to do on a large scale...)
As annihilation of matter is enormously energetically efficient i think that overfed cubi can just gain a few grams of mass and to the counter it would take a looong time to get one to starve entirely.However, perhaps the conversion is not so efficient (i mean a lot of spare heat given out) so that it will sustain a cubi, but not so much for it to use its abilities and maybe even mind properly, which would be the reason why they still prefer to feed regularly.
EDIT: Besides if they can shapeshift that means they can add and substract matter at will, if they have enough energy to carry it through, which makes the idea of over/underweight meaningless.
Might be funny to imagine an older cubi, in perfect concentration, shapeshifting the atherosclerotic plaques out of his arteries :D
Fat doesn't have to be the only place for excess food/emotional-energy to go. It could be dissipated as heat, put into magical reserves, proprtionally distributed mass (hair, skin, muscle, bone, etc), or just not absorbed in the first place.
Don't you pay attention? If a 'Cubi absorbs too much emotion, they get headaches! http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_488.php
Quote from: Trazz on March 19, 2010, 11:45:34 PM
Don't you pay attention? If a 'Cubi absorbs too much emotion, they get headaches! http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_488.php
True, but they might get headaches
and plump >:3
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 20, 2010, 05:14:03 AM
Quote from: Trazz on March 19, 2010, 11:45:34 PM
Don't you pay attention? If a 'Cubi absorbs too much emotion, they get headaches! http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_488.php
True, but they might get headaches and plump >:3
Hmm, as is said, converting matter to energy is much more efficient than just storing energy via C-H chemical bonds in lipids.
So beyond fat for thermal isolation, a cubi could gain small amounts of mass by direct conversion from energy...
Also they might use proper food to grow - with this kind of ability transmutation of matter might be possible... although difficult (but with enough time masterable) which would explain the size of Cyra for example.
But thinking of it .... plump kind of loses meaning for someone who can shapeshift into anything it chooses with little effort (and semi-perm it seems - look at Aniz)
I was admittedly mostly wondering how they don't get underweight if they never eat food. :B Which is when I started figuring that feeding on emotions probably takes care of that somehow.
Then again though, these are the same Cubi who can modify their body mass (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_690.php) so maybe they're just in the habit of always shapeshifting to whatever weight they look good in. And then it occurs to me that maybe that's why some of them (e.g. Abel) prefer to regularly eat food anyway?
Quote from: danman on March 20, 2010, 09:59:52 AM
Hmm, as is said, converting matter to energy is much more efficient than just storing energy via C-H chemical bonds in lipids.
Actually, the C-H bonds are fairly low in energy. As are the C-C bonds, really. The energy that comes from fatty acid catabolism comes from the fact that it can be broken down into several acetyl-CoA units, which can go through the citric acid cycle to generate NADH and FADH₂, which in turn can be used in the electron transport chain to generate a proton motive force, which can be used to drive the action of ATP synthase, which phosphorylates ADP to create ATP, which can be dephosphorylated to drive any number of biological pathways. So, basically, the energy is "stored" in each 2-carbon unit of the fatty acid chain, since that's what's converted to acetyl-CoA.
... What? I have an exam on the citric acid cycle and lipid metabolism next week. :mowtongue
But anyway! Back on topic. I agree; I think 'cubi weight is mostly a matter of aesthetics and personal preference. They seem like they can pretty much choose their own weight, via shapeshifting and by choosing how much food (emotional energy or otherwise) they ingest.
... Great. I caught myself wondering how emotional energy could be converted to biologically-available energy. Does it create some kind of electrochemical (electromagical?) gradient in magical mitochondria? Are there enzymes for phosphorylating ADP using emotional energy? Does it act like a hormone to drive ATP synthesis via other pathways? But even if it did, it would need...
:mowdizzy I should really stop thinking while I'm ahead...
Quote from: Liatai on March 20, 2010, 10:38:07 AM
... Great. I caught myself wondering how emotional energy could be converted to biologically-available energy.
From what I've heard, it isn't. Emotional energy is used as a catalyst, the real energy source is elsewhere - this is how they're able to feed on their own emotions, or several 'Cubi are able to mutually feed on each other's emotions.
Quote from: Liatai on March 20, 2010, 10:38:07 AM
Quote from: danman on March 20, 2010, 09:59:52 AM
Hmm, as is said, converting matter to energy is much more efficient than just storing energy via C-H chemical bonds in lipids.
Actually, the C-H bonds are fairly low in energy. As are the C-C bonds, really. The energy that comes from fatty acid catabolism comes from the fact that it can be broken down into several acetyl-CoA units, which can go through the citric acid cycle to generate NADH and FADH₂, which in turn can be used in the electron transport chain to generate a proton motive force, which can be used to drive the action of ATP synthase, which phosphorylates ADP to create ATP, which can be dephosphorylated to drive any number of biological pathways. So, basically, the energy is "stored" in each 2-carbon unit of the fatty acid chain, since that's what's converted to acetyl-CoA.
... What? I have an exam on the citric acid cycle and lipid metabolism next week. :mowtongue
But anyway! Back on topic. I agree; I think 'cubi weight is mostly a matter of aesthetics and personal preference. They seem like they can pretty much choose their own weight, via shapeshifting and by choosing how much food (emotional energy or otherwise) they ingest.
... Great. I caught myself wondering how emotional energy could be converted to biologically-available energy. Does it create some kind of electrochemical (electromagical?) gradient in magical mitochondria? Are there enzymes for phosphorylating ADP using emotional energy? Does it act like a hormone to drive ATP synthesis via other pathways? But even if it did, it would need...
:mowdizzy I should really stop thinking while I'm ahead...
Nice!
I have little knowing of biology, just some chemistry and lot of physics ,so i thought it is similar to when you burn the stuff, where C-H gives you more energy per unit mass... (I naively thought ATP is just used for short-term storage)
I guess, since it is pure energy, there must be something in cubi cells which acts like an antenna - is able to transfer the emotional energy into perhaps thermal (vibrations) That would explain the headaches - if a cubi takes in more than can be stored , his/her brain overheats
That isn't such a naive thought, danman! :smile ATP is such a high-energy molecule that it's very thermodynamically favorable for the third phosphate group to be snapped off. That, coupled with the fact that so many pathways use ATP as an energy source, means that ATP doesn't stick around for long. So, in that sense, it is a short-term energy source. It's energy in an easy-to-use package. Fatty acids, carbohydrates, and sometimes amino acids can store energy for later use in making that easy-to-use package.
It's kind of like a cookie, in a way; you can have the flour, sugar, eggs, etc. laying around the house ready to bake with, but until you do things to them, they don't become the easy-to-consume, readily-available cookie. The potential is there; it's just not in the right form to be used.
Tapewolf: That makes sense, although now you've got me wondering what the energy source is. :. You can only break down glucose and acetyl-CoA so many times before you end up with an excess of carbon dioxide and a sore lack of anything to take energy from... Maybe 'cubi have some way of recycling the CO₂ into carbohydrates/lipids/proteins/what have you that requires emotional energy as a sort of cofactor? Some kind of photosynthesis-like system that uses emotional energy instead of light? What would you call that, anyway? Emotosynthesis?
Or, maybe... does it say anywhere that 'cubi need to breathe? Maybe they're the largest nitrogen fixers known to man. xD Or maybe I just need to accept that it's probably magic and stop thinking about it.
Quote from: Liatai on March 20, 2010, 12:23:41 PM
Or, maybe... does it say anywhere that 'cubi need to breathe?
This we do know a little about. Like sleeping, eating and other biological leftovers from their Being stage, they gradually lose the need. Dan needs to. Abel can IIRC hold his breath for hours. Destania probably doesn't need to breathe at all except to speak, and it's pretty much a dead cert that none of the Tri-wings need to.
QuoteMaybe they're the largest nitrogen fixers known to man. xD Or maybe I just need to accept that it's probably magic and stop thinking about it.
Well, there is a limit to how far you can push it. At the end of the day their metabolism is magic-based, and in the DMFA universe it seems to be easy to create raw materials via magical processes.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 20, 2010, 12:32:11 PM
Well, there is a limit to how far you can push it. At the end of the day their metabolism is magic-based, and in the DMFA universe it seems to be easy to create raw materials via magical processes.
Ah! Somehow, I'd forgotten that little fact. Now I remember Abel's economics lecture. :animesweat That makes this whole business
much easier to think about. Thanks!
Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 19, 2010, 04:14:02 PM
Fat doesn't have to be the only place for excess food/emotional-energy to go. It could be dissipated as heat, put into magical reserves, proprtionally distributed mass (hair, skin, muscle, bone, etc), or just not absorbed in the first place.
Doctor: You have a temperature of 176 degrees!
Dan: Oh yeah, that. I had some granola with my morning dose of Pip huggles, and I'm trying to keep my weight down.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 20, 2010, 12:32:11 PM
Well, there is a limit to how far you can push it. At the end of the day their metabolism is magic-based, and in the DMFA universe it seems to be easy to create raw materials via magical processes.
Well, exactly - i believe they can transmute substances by messing with nucleons.
Compared to that, recycling metabolites (chemical bonds are much less energetic) is a doddle - that is why they are able to do it passively, and since there is not much more structure, it should not be more difficult....
So i would expect magical mitochondries that convert CO2 and H2O into glucose and uric acid and such into proteins. If they are oversupplied you get the equivalent of a sun sickness in a person (or a plant for that matter) which explains the headache.
As for the remaining part.. it might not be that the emotion is a catalyst, but that when released it binds energy from the enviroment of some form.. so the thing with eating your own emotions is like when a chimp puts a stick with some "coniferous plant juice" (i do not know the term in english) down an anthill and then picks up termites ....
In this case the stick is digested as well but is a minor part to what makes the thing energetic...
Quote from: Shachza on March 20, 2010, 01:29:18 PM
Doctor: You have a temperature of 176 degrees!
Dan: Oh yeah, that. I had some granola with my morning dose of Pip huggles, and I'm trying to keep my weight down.
Fahrenheit? Celsius?
Kelvin?
Quote from: Bjalf on March 20, 2010, 02:06:05 PM
Quote from: Shachza on March 20, 2010, 01:29:18 PM
Doctor: You have a temperature of 176 degrees!
Dan: Oh yeah, that. I had some granola with my morning dose of Pip huggles, and I'm trying to keep my weight down.
Fahrenheit? Celsius? Kelvin?
Rankine!
Quote from: Bjalf on March 20, 2010, 02:06:05 PM
Fahrenheit? Celsius? Kelvin?
Kelvin. They are the Clan of Winter's Touch, no?
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 20, 2010, 02:28:05 PM
Quote from: Bjalf on March 20, 2010, 02:06:05 PM
Fahrenheit? Celsius? Kelvin?
Kelvin. They are the Clan of Winter's Touch, no?
176 rankine is colder - it is the fahrenheit equivalent to celsius=>kelvin
Actually, this conversation got me thinking about Matilda. Warm blooded animals are normally warmer than their environment. Since Matilda was raised in a very hot area, this would make her body very, very hot. I don't think that this would be the type of hot date that Dan is looking for.
If she was cold-blooded, one would expect her to be very lethargic in an environment so much colder than what she is used to.
Another possibility would be that she is warm-blooded, but able to change her body temperature at will. (In the Dick Tracy comic strip, the inhabitants of the moon had this ability.)
Quote from: Naldru on March 20, 2010, 03:05:29 PM
Actually, this conversation got me thinking about Matilda. Warm blooded animals are normally warmer than their environment. Since Matilda was raised in a very hot area, this would make her body very, very hot. I don't think that this would be the type of hot date that Dan is looking for.
If she was cold-blooded, one would expect her to be very lethargic in an environment so much colder than what she is used to.
Another possibility would be that she is warm-blooded, but able to change her body temperature at will. (In the Dick Tracy comic strip, the inhabitants of the moon had this ability.)
I think she is magical. She's kind, loving and can breath fire. What more could a guy wish for in a woman? :3
Quote from: Naldru on March 20, 2010, 03:05:29 PM
Actually, this conversation got me thinking about Matilda. Warm blooded animals are normally warmer than their environment. Since Matilda was raised in a very hot area, this would make her body very, very hot. I don't think that this would be the type of hot date that Dan is looking for.
They teach element-resistance at SAIA, though.
Quote from: Naldru on March 20, 2010, 03:05:29 PMActually, this conversation got me thinking about Matilda. Warm blooded animals are normally warmer than their environment. Since Matilda was raised in a very hot area, this would make her body very, very hot. I don't think that this would be the type of hot date that Dan is looking for.
If she was cold-blooded, one would expect her to be very lethargic in an environment so much colder than what she is used to.
According to her cast page, it
does state that she dislikes rain and doesn't travel much in the winter.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 20, 2010, 03:10:03 PMThey teach element-resistance at SAIA, though.
Yeah, but Dan hasn't taken that class, yet. ~_^
One thing I thought I'd bring up about the headaches: Fa'Lina says that absorbing a lot of emotion-energy can cause a lot of pain
IF they aren't trained to handle it. (Link (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_488.php)) Admittedly, I've been skimming over the chemistry bits here, but it seems that Cubi can condition there bodies to better deal with the reaction, or to absorb the energy more efficiently, whether or not such science is involved. Human bodies can adapt and be trained for a lot of such things, so I wouldn't be surprised.
Science and shapeshifting (never would've thought I'd hear
those two words in the same sentence) aside, I guess since they primarily feed off of emotion-catalyzed-energy, then their bodies would probably use other resources as secondary supplies. So to obtain energy, their bodies would probably go though stores in this order: emotion > carbs > fat > other. If that were the case, assuming they
did choose to still eat, it would be harder for them to maintain weight naturally since it would take longer for the body to use it's other energy supplies before it has to use fat. This would be especially so at SAIA and other emotion-rich places. On a similar note, it would be harder to 'starve' a Cubi, especially since they can feed off their own emotions, to some extent.
...Okay, now I'm not only wondering not only about weight-loss, but body-building and whatnot. Assuming they used their absorbed energy and converted it into body mass, could they readily use any emotion for any, nutrient or would they have to balance their diet as usual? Hmm... Nah, maybe it wouldn't matter. Though it
would be interesting if, say, anger was the equivalent of protein.
Can't... Stop... Self... Must... NNNNGH! Comment... RrrrrrrAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u299/Maxmaz/phsyicscatgirl11011763000974ri.gif)
For those of you who don't care for catgirls... Well, I'm just gonna get out of your way then...
TO SELF: Stay out of it, self. I'm warning you... YOU HAVE WRITING TO DO! GET BACK TO WORK!
Hmm, but this is not that fantasy of a comic - i mean the universe is well defined and although modified ,some kind of physics applies!
It is soo much more interesting when one actually comes up with reliable mechanisms for events, because they give structure and so allow for interesting advanced speculation.... and fun ideas.
Knowledge is power!
Except.. this isn't knowledge. It's speculation.
Totally off topic. What's with all the "fan" and "familiar" things in people's sigs?
But speculation similar to real world - either everything will go in accord to our theories, and then they are workable, or something does not and then we have to improve them,...
It is sort of like science , except we cannot conduct proper experiments :D LOL
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 20, 2010, 12:32:11 PM
Well, there is a limit to how far you can push it. At the end of the day their metabolism is magic-based, and in the DMFA universe it seems to be easy to create raw materials via magical processes.
See this bothers me, (and I've had this discussion with others so I'm curious where you guys take it) Even in a cosmology that contains magic there still has to be a fixed amount, conservation of energy tells us that 'simple' shape shifting is in fact a
far more complex system than it appears at a glance.
Take for example what is presumably one of the most common shape shifts, hiding of the head wings. They can't just go away, they have to go somewhere.
Now the easiest way to account for that is transference to energy, but that's only a relatively(pardon the pun) simple solution since Matter to Energy conversion is ridiculously energetic. So where does the energy go? Worse, when going in the other direction and reforming the wings a Cubi needs to somehow access a similarly large energy reserve and consume it when converting back to matter.
And we know they don't 'save' it somehow otherwise magical combat would be leveling cities, if Cubi were able to bank their excess power from shapeshifing mass away magical combat would consist of a Cubi shrinking an inch and unleashing a godlike blast of energy fueled by a matter/energy conversion.
And you can't just say "It's magic." Even magic has to follow rules, even if we might not understand all of them yet.
I
know I'm over thinking this, but this is what I do for fun :D
Quote from: danman on March 20, 2010, 07:17:22 PM
But speculation similar to real world - either everything will go in accord to our theories, and then they are workable, or something does not and then we have to improve them,...
It is sort of like science , except we cannot conduct proper experiments :D LOL
Problems with that: You're waiting on the word of god (Amber) and that word of god can change overnight either because she changed her mind, or she forgot, or she sneezed and the chain reactions that went from there caused it to change. Instead, why don't you just sit back and enjoy the show? I'm all for scientific thought and careful consideration, but when those things lead you to start trying to state something as fact when there is, unfortunately, too many variables you simply can't account for.. it seems to me that you are not only being counter productive but are flat out wasting time.
Beyond that: this is a comic. A magical realm where dragons and fae with god like powers roam the world. The more you try and apply the logic of our world on to it, the more you, pardon the reference to vulgarity, effing beat the magic out of it. Seriously? I know this isn't a beef with you, but I really think there should be a sub-forum for these crazy speculation threads. They're not even story discussion as far as I'm concerned.
Actually, a sub-forum for crazy/insane speculation threads sounds like an excellent idea...
Quote
I know this isn't a beef with you, but I really think there should be a sub-forum for these crazy speculation threads. They're not even story discussion as far as I'm concerned.
i am for, too, actually!
Although since comic threads easily (d)evolve into speculation, it might be difficult to set a border
(Ohh, i see what you are trying! You want to create situations where such threads die before they begin as the creator will be unsure where to put them! Ebil!)
Even fantasy magic needs to follow some form of logic. And, actually, in a lot of fantasy worlds, arcane spellcasters need to spend a lot of time studying the physics behind their magic and how to affect the world in order to properly cast their spells. In fact, in things such as FullMetal Alchemist, they explain that they're basically manipulating things on a molecular level. And when it comes to how much energy this stuff would take, well, I guess we can basically say that it's commonly assumed that one's own mana/aura/spirit/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is very powerful (and frankly, I agree). To what measurement in energy? We don't know.
Besides, it's fun to theorise.
Hmm... I wonder how difficult a water-to-wine spell would be considered in DMFA? Or better yet in Dan's view, water-to-ale.
Quote from: Infranscia on March 20, 2010, 10:16:50 PM
Hmm... I wonder how difficult a water-to-wine spell would be considered in DMFA? Or better yet in Dan's view, water-to-ale.
That depends, do we get to simply transmute at no loss, or do we have to pay for the skipped process of brewing as well?
^^^
I believe the leading theory on that is that it can be done, but the results taste terrible...
Heck, the whole water-into-wine trick can be done by a simple knowledge of chemistry. The trick is mixing two clear liquids that look like water, but react, forming a wine-colored liquid. (As for certain biblical references, debating that is gonna need another thread.)
And for specifics, FullMetal Alchemist eventually revealed that the life-energy of one world powered the alchemy of the other world. Considering that hundreds, if not thousands, of people die every day, and the population of Edward's world seemed smaller than that of the "other" world...
And even then, Edward "skipped" some steps in the process, nearly losing his life at a young age and gaining knowledge that would've taken years of study and practice in the process.
And yes, I have bought the whole series plus movie on DVD format. (Though I did have to watch some fan-subbed episodes due to TWO defective collections and crappy Best Buy not having YET ANOTHER set to exchange...)
And now, I must leave before I kill any more catgirls...
Quote from: Infranscia on March 20, 2010, 10:16:50 PMBesides, it's fun to theorise.
Hmm... I wonder how difficult a water-to-wine spell would be considered in DMFA? Or better yet in Dan's view, water-to-ale.
"Eye of rabbit, harp string hum, turn this water into..." *
KABOOM!!*
Quote from: Shachza on March 20, 2010, 07:11:11 PM
Totally off topic. What's with all the "fan" and "familiar" things in people's sigs?
In the Villa is a thread.
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,7164.0.html
You have been enlightened.
Quote from: TypoNinja on March 20, 2010, 07:21:44 PM
And you can't just say "It's magic." Even magic has to follow rules, even if we might not understand all of them yet.
I know I'm over thinking this, but this is what I do for fun :D
But
of course we can say "it's just magic"! :P
The thing is, since magic doesn't seem to exist in the real world, anything we can say about how its presence would affect the laws of physics is just speculation to begin with. People who take the lazy way out by saying "well, of course the world works exactly like ours, only with magic!" are one of my (thankfully lesser) pet peeves -- if it has magic, it
already doesn't work "exactly like ours", and thus it's silly to unthinkingly assume that
any of 'our' rules must apply unchanged by default.
I mean, for all we know Furrae actually is just an oddly two-dimensional world populated by lifeforms made up from lines and blobs of color rather than biological cells as we'd understand them. Although I'll concede that that sounds just a
touch farfetched even to me... ;)
But remember, a human popped in there accidentally, so the physicses have to be compatible !
Quote from: danman on March 21, 2010, 11:35:02 AM
But remember, a human popped in there accidentally, so the physicses have to be compatible !
Does that human need to have been from our universe? With the probability of thousands of realities being out there the world that human was from did not need to be ours.
Also this is a silly discussion for silly people.
True, true. But it's fun. :3
Quote from: Liatai on March 21, 2010, 11:50:20 AM
True, true. But it's fun. :3
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/WEO/Emicons/butIfantytaj.png) Can't win. :<
Do you all have Catgirl hunting licenses? There've been several hundred catgirl deaths as a result of this thread alone.
Fortunately, I do have catgirl hunting licenses available; it costs i250 for each catgirl license tag....
Quote from: Tangent on March 21, 2010, 12:46:55 PM
Do you all have Catgirl hunting licenses? There've been several hundred catgirl deaths as a result of this thread alone.
Fortunately, I do have catgirl hunting licenses available; it costs i250 for each catgirl license tag....
I'm a Trek nerd, I got the bulk license years ago.
Quote from: A. Lurker on March 21, 2010, 10:54:24 AM
But of course we can say "it's just magic"! :P
The thing is, since magic doesn't seem to exist in the real world, anything we can say about how its presence would affect the laws of physics is just speculation to begin with. People who take the lazy way out by saying "well, of course the world works exactly like ours, only with magic!" are one of my (thankfully lesser) pet peeves -- if it has magic, it already doesn't work "exactly like ours", and thus it's silly to unthinkingly assume that any of 'our' rules must apply unchanged by default.
Right, but everything has rules, everything
has to have rules, even magic. These rules might differ drastically from what we are used to, but there's no doubt they exist. You can't have a chaotic system existing in an ordered reality. Even more simply, able took a magic class, the fact that magic can be taught as a class tells us there are certain constants, limitations, and rules for magic, otherwise there would be nothing to teach.
Quote from: Tytaj on March 21, 2010, 11:44:20 AM
Does that human need to have been from our universe? With the probability of thousands of realities being out there the world that human was from did not need to be ours.
Yes, or rather at least from one similar enough to ours to be indistinguishable without extensive studies (in terms of the rules it operates on). The human body is a pretty complex machine, putzing with the rules of reality would make us break pretty quickly. Similarly, we can assume that biology is relatively unchanged across the spectrum, since beings seem to eat much the same food we do, Alexis talks of giving free apples to children in one case. Their idea of Cake and ours match up, this means chemical reactions work as we'd expect as well, since Able's cake came out looking fairly tasty, yeast rising and all that. Same for ales/beers. Fermentation of alcohol is a another bit of chemistry and matches up, even more telling, Beings and even Creatures seem to process alcohol the same way we do. This tells us that their physiology is quite similar to ours, close enough to even have the same biological quirks we do, like forehead wounds bleeding a great deal even though the actual wound is minor.
Many people assume that its hard to get solid information from a fantasy world, but simple observations and some logical deductions will leave you with surprisingly large amounts of information.
Quote
Also this is a silly discussion for silly people.
Well yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.
Quote from: TypoNinja on March 21, 2010, 03:44:27 PM
Quote from: Tytaj on March 21, 2010, 11:44:20 AM
< chunk o text >
<chunk o text>
Irrelevant, since the possible number of alternate realities is infinite or at least near infinite. By this we could determine that a human from that reality did not need to be as sensitive as one in hours. As well that crossing between universes may bestow changes upon the human itself which we have no information on. It is uncertain in both aspects and because this was one of the earlier comics is more random silliness than well thought out scientificly well supported phenomenon.
Quote from: TypoNinja on March 21, 2010, 03:44:27 PM
Even more simply, able took a magic class, the fact that magic can be taught as a class tells us there are certain constants, limitations, and rules for magic, otherwise there would be nothing to teach.
Abel took
only one magic class in the last 400 years? :mowwink I'm sure he took a multitude of magical subjects in that time, whether he was proficient at most of them or not.
Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 21, 2010, 04:24:31 PM
Quote from: TypoNinja on March 21, 2010, 03:44:27 PM
Even more simply, able took a magic class, the fact that magic can be taught as a class tells us there are certain constants, limitations, and rules for magic, otherwise there would be nothing to teach.
Abel took only one magic class in the last 400 years? :mowwink I'm sure he took a multitude of magical subjects in that time, whether he was proficient at most of them or not.
One that we've seen, it'd be reasonable to assume he took more, since he was proficient enough to polymorph Dan in #691.
The point stands however, be it 'magic 101' or 'Advanced Techniques in Thaumaturgic Manipulations', the fact that classes on magic exist shows us there are consistent traits to it that can be learned/taught. Since there are, you can further conclude that they will for the most part follow the established laws of reality, like conservation of energy, or drag/lift, unless demonstrated otherwise because a system that breaks reality as its nature would never come about naturally*, a system that follows the established laws of realtiy, but has the potential to conflict is more likely however.
*the Fey have mentioned that Furrae exists as a sort of an inter-dimensional middle of nowhere, so nobody cares if anybody breaks it (#841) so its entirely possible that the Fey and/or Dragons set up an inherently unstable system just to see what happened to it. But you can't draw any realistic conclusions from that assumption (plus there's no evidence for it, but that's kind of the point of a grand conspiracy anyway). Mab does seem to have some kind of plan that involves a magic vs technology clash at some point, that seems related, but we wouldn't get much out of speculating along those lines yet since its likely to be covered in future comics.
This entire insistence that any given hypothetical alternate reality has to have the same rules as ours at its root or else it couldn't work at all (based, essentially, on the fact that those are the rules we're the most familiar with) in all honesty rather reminds me of that old joke about a drunk, his lost keys, and a street lamp...
...but going down this road any further looks likely to just end in flames, which I'm just as honestly not interested in. So instead, here's a mow with a cookie. I'm out.
:mowcookie
I've got to say, you've now got me interested in the joke. Care to enlighten me? I collect bad jokes...
Quote from: A. Lurker on March 22, 2010, 12:50:57 PM
This entire insistence that any given hypothetical alternate reality has to have the same rules as ours at its root or else it couldn't work at all (based, essentially, on the fact that those are the rules we're the most familiar with) in all honesty rather reminds me of that old joke about a drunk, his lost keys, and a street lamp...
...but going down this road any further looks likely to just end in flames, which I'm just as honestly not interested in. So instead, here's a mow with a cookie. I'm out.
:mowcookie
Uhh no, I maintain it has to have similar rules to ours because of observations about the world we've gotten through the comic. Things like Booze showing they have similar chemistry to us, and their state of inebriation appears much the same as ours argues for a similar physiology, red blood shows its likely they have similar biological makeups, forehead wounds bleeding copiously , things of this nature.
Its not that its the rules we are familiar with its that so far they've been conforming to the rules as we'd expect. Given that they seem to follow quite a few of the Laws we are familiar with and that the laws of our reality are greatly interdependent, I don't think its unreasonable to assume their reality operations on the same rules as our, or at least on a close enough set of rules to not be easily distinguishable without advanced study.
Though that's kind of side tracking, I was originally curious about possibly extrapolating some of the principles of magic in the world and ended up distracted while justifying why I thought there had to be consistent rules for it.
Jyrra's was doing some experimenting on it in #370, so I don't think I'm completely out of left field expecting there to be some rules to it. Maybe I'll have to hold out for another comic though :mowtongue
It would be interesting though if they had ether, or other of the more fancy physics theories of 19th century!
Quote from: danman on March 22, 2010, 10:52:22 PM
It would be interesting though if they had ether, or other of the more fancy physics theories of 19th century!
Oh, geeze. That'd be a hoot. :mowhappy
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 22, 2010, 01:20:34 PM
I've got to say, you've now got me interested in the joke. Care to enlighten me? I collect bad jokes...
I think it's something like the drunk dropping his keys in a dark corner but searching under the streetlamp because that's where he can actually see.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 23, 2010, 05:06:20 AM
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 22, 2010, 01:20:34 PM
I've got to say, you've now got me interested in the joke. Care to enlighten me? I collect bad jokes...
I think it's something like the drunk dropping his keys in a dark corner but searching under the streetlamp because that's where he can actually see.
Oh, i thought it was the one with the drunk strafing around the lamp, trying his keys and then commenting: This tall building and they do not have an elevator....
Well, now that Piflak's around, we know that 'Cubi CAN in fact get fat =P
Quote from: Trazz on March 28, 2010, 03:31:40 PM
Well, now that Piflak's around, we know that 'Cubi CAN in fact get fat =P
Though the jury's still out whether that's actual body fat or not :P