The Clockwork Mansion

Okay, terrible evil vile pun aside, what happened to Mink's mom just SUCKED. End of story. Both he and Abel have a lot of reasons to complain about their lot in life, and I honestly don't know whose life sucks more.

"Say Abel, what's your mum like?"

"Uh, a lot like yours (...unfortunately)"

All I can say is poor Mink. But Abel was right when he said that it is physically impossible for Mink to dislike something or someone. I salute you, Mink, you are a paragon of kindness and good will. :C

P.S. Bro, I'm gonna do terrible things to you for that pun. >:[

Just kidding. :B

This comic invokes an 'aww...' in so many different ways.  Of course, there's the sad 'aww...' for what happened to Mink's mom, but then there's mom's method of helping others, Mink's willingness to forgive, Mink's own aspirations to help others, and of course, Abel's sympathy. *^_^*  It seems Abel's sadness has probably been lifted a bit for knowing he's not alone, and such.  I wonder if he'll share or if he'll try to avoid a pity party like a certain (un)dead friend of his?

Mmkay, we know how adventurers primarily learn about Cubi, (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_524.php) but I wonder why no one seems to promote the fact that there are good Cubi on the side?  Does that stuff get tossed aside as 'not so interesting' or 'probably lies made by Cubi to get us to let down our guards'?  Are Cubi in general trying to not have too many secrets leaked so that surprise is on their side?  Or maybe it's possible that someone doesn't want people abusing that information?  *shrug*  I was just thinking that it would probably spare more good Cubi, although now I'm thinking it might inadvertantly lead to more adventurers' deaths, too.

Poor Mink.  :mowsad Not only he does not seek revenge, but also is eager to follow the same path.  And he will likely end the same way because he does not realise how stupid it is to do this... helping those who will jump on his neck if they learn who he is. We say in my country that the wise man learns on others' mistakes and the dull man on his own ... well ... in this case, one gets no chance to learn the second way.

Mink's joy and enthusiasm is incredible. Almost reminds me of the flash (Wally West).

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 01:17:54 AM
Poor Mink.  :mowsad Not only he does not seek revenge, but also is eager to follow the same path.  And he will likely end the same way because he does not realise how stupid it is to do this... helping those who will jump on his neck if they learn who he is. We say in my country that the wise man learns on others' mistakes and the dull man on his own ... well ... in this case, one gets no chance to learn the second way.

A true hero will help the needy regardless if they want it or not. A hero is not afraid to give his life. A hero does it because he is good, and because he knows it's right. If he has to die by their hands or by the ones trying to end theirs, it is still a sacrifice to give your life for those who will benefit most from it.
As one of my people once said "A very great vision is needed and the man who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky." Mink has a need to help beings. If that is what he desires, how can he deny who he is?

Mink really looks like a girl in panel 2.

This comic just makes me sad =< Poor Mink's mom.

Quote from: Infranscia on March 16, 2010, 01:11:47 AM
Mmkay, we know how adventurers primarily learn about Cubi, (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_524.php) but I wonder why no one seems to promote the fact that there are good Cubi on the side?  Does that stuff get tossed aside as 'not so interesting' or 'probably lies made by Cubi to get us to let down our guards'? 

Don't remember which comic number it was, but recall that Abel told Dan that the majority of Cubi are jerks, especially when it comes to their food. . . uh, I mean beings.  Mink, Abel, and Fa'Lina (in some instances) are the exception.  Cubi don't have to work for their reputation, Mink's mom just fell victim to the ill-will generated by the thousands of others of her race.

On another subject, here's where Abel gets to decide whether he will open up at all to Mink.  Anyone taking any bets?

"She once leaped across a desk and pummelled my principle. We had to move after that." :D

Ok. I was stunned to find out that Mink's mom was murdered. But that... that just blew me right out of the water. I admit I was surprised Mink managed to forgive the adventurer. I know Mink is one of the most friendly characters out there but GEEZ. He's like a guru of everlasting kindess.

I wonder if all of Jin's clan is like Mink...
And on another note, I wonder what Abel's response will be. Something tells me (though I may be wrong) that something very unexpected and possibly heart-warming is coming up.

That sounds like a rather risky ploy to me.  If it had been someone with a tattoo, the village would have lopped his head off instead.

WMG

This is the start of where Abel actively distances himself from Mink, putting extra effort into getting Mink to 'go away' and sever all ties.... so that Abel won't be hurt when Mink goes out into the world and inevitably (in Abel's view) gets himself killed.

/WMG

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 03:54:36 AM
This is the start of where Abel actively distances himself from Mink, putting extra effort into getting Mink to 'go away' and sever all ties.... so that Abel won't be hurt when Mink goes out into the world and inevitably (in Abel's view) gets himself killed.

Perhaps, but that's not the expression I'm seeing in the last panel.  I think he's going to be open with Mink about this, after all, they now have something in common which he plainly did not expect.

Panel Two Mink is awwdorably huggable.

Heh .. and the adventurer got a celebration feat to boot.

That must have sucked for Mink.

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 03:54:36 AM
This is the start of where Abel actively distances himself from Mink, putting extra effort into getting Mink to 'go away' and sever all ties.... so that Abel won't be hurt when Mink goes out into the world and inevitably (in Abel's view) gets himself killed.

I was wondering if Mink distances himself from Abel when he finds out that his Dad was the one who screwed up the Zinvth hospital plan.
However, he's had ample time to notice the clan mark and figure it out himself, and if he's able to forgive his mother's murderer, he probably isn't the sort to hold a grudge against Aniz' son.

Upon this time I harbor a bit of dread, as being Abel's (only?) friend, Mink is inevitably screwed.

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 16, 2010, 03:48:33 AM
That sounds like a rather risky ploy to me.  If it had been someone with a tattoo, the village would have lopped his head off instead.

Well, I guess anyone with a fake cubi clan symbol as a tattoo probably deserves to have his head lopped off..  :B

And yeah, Mink in panel 2 is soooo freaking cute.  :giggle

Quote from: RandomMetaphysics on March 16, 2010, 02:58:25 AMI know Mink is one of the most friendly characters out there but GEEZ. He's like a guru of everlasting kindess.

I wonder if all of Jin's clan is like Mink...

I'd expect so, considering that Jin Clan's affinity is Joy.  My reaction on reading this page was, "Oh!  He's in Jin's clan!  No wonder he's always happy!"

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 16, 2010, 07:36:04 AMI was wondering if Mink distances himself from Abel when he finds out that his Dad was the one who screwed up the Zinvth hospital plan.
However, he's had ample time to notice the clan mark and figure it out himself, and if he's able to forgive his mother's murderer, he probably isn't the sort to hold a grudge against Aniz' son.

Well, either that, Tapewolf, or Mink distances himself from Abel on orders from Jin herself.

Quote from: rhyfe2002 on March 16, 2010, 08:10:02 AM
Well, I guess anyone with a fake cubi clan symbol as a tattoo probably deserves to have his head lopped off..  :B

Again, there's a guy at work here who's almost certainly never heard of 'Cubi and has a runic symbol on his arm.
The only sure way to know if a tattoo is a clan mark is if they're obviously 'Cubi, or if you can memorise all the clan marks.  And you'd have to have studied at SAIA to have a hope of finding them all out.

And NOW we know one of the many reasons adventurers are so very disliked by creatures at large.

What can we say, shock soldiers aren't the most understanding lot.

;_; I want to hug Mink and make the bad go away. B'aaaw...

Quote from: Siarnaq on March 16, 2010, 07:48:20 AM
Upon this time I harbor a bit of dread, as being Abel's (only?) friend, Mink is inevitably screwed.

Don't forget, most mortals are inevitably screwed. It's just a manner of when and how.

Awwwwwww

Bah, just how life works, I guess :/

Mink is a woobie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie).

Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 16, 2010, 09:46:22 AM
Don't forget, most mortals are inevitably screwed. It's just a manner of when and how.

I hear a honeymoon is dedicated to that sort of thing... I'll be going now.

Quote from: jeffh4 on March 16, 2010, 01:44:06 AM
Don't remember which comic number it was, but recall that Abel told Dan that the majority of Cubi are jerks, especially when it comes to their food. . . uh, I mean beings.  Mink, Abel, and Fa'Lina (in some instances) are the exception.  Cubi don't have to work for their reputation, Mink's mom just fell victim to the ill-will generated by the thousands of others of her race.

On another subject, here's where Abel gets to decide whether he will open up at all to Mink.  Anyone taking any bets?

I believe you're referring to this strip (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_524.php), where Abel's explaining the interest factor in the respective books about nice or evil Cubi.  So I'd imagine, no, there's not much PR for the "good" Cubi.

And yeah, learning he was from Jin's, I was like AHA. And then wondered if ALL the clan members have tentacles or snakey bits. XD

@Anker: NO DON'T SUCK US INTO TVTROPES AAAAHHHH~!  Actually I think Mink's got a while to go before he hits true Woobie status - so far, the fact that his mom was killed is the only real bad thing to happen to him, and it was in his distant past.  Woobies are typically constantly being beat up on, so unless his life takes a turn for the dramatically worse, I think he'll stay away from Woobism.

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 16, 2010, 03:48:33 AM
That sounds like a rather risky ploy to me.  If it had been someone with a tattoo, the village would have lopped his head off instead.

There are tattoos and there are TATTOOS.  I expect the adventurer recognized it from the "Adventure's Compendium of Clan Marks of Overtly Evil Creatures Who Aren't Sexy Enough to Make You Forget About Them Wanting to Eat Your Soul for Breakfast." 

The book is in its 76th printing, actually.

Quote from: celelorien on March 16, 2010, 10:59:20 AM
I believe you're referring to this strip (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_524.php), where Abel's explaining the interest factor in the respective books about nice or evil Cubi.  So I'd imagine, no, there's not much PR for the "good" Cubi.

Close, and interesting, but AFAIK he's referencing this:
Strip 658 (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_658.php).
...given Abel's history and his weird state of mind - and particularly the way he "turned being alone into an art" (strip 742) - it's a bit difficult to say how biased he is.

Maybe I'm cynical and jaded.


No, scrap that. I am cynical and jaded. Maybe it's affecting how I view this strip.

I'm wondering how much of Mink's cheeriness is a by-product of his clan and possibly clan leader.  We know more powerful 'cubi can affect the emotional state of less powerful 'Cubi, and that the "majority of clan Jin" is at SAIA.


Speculation: Jin herself is at SAIA. Basis? She is still alive and the note about the clan leaders that her clan would have likely died without the creation of SAIA.

Furthermore, while I cannot cite the source, a lot of the empowering effect from 'cubi clan structure seems to radiate outward from the extremely powerful tri-wing 'cubi.


Speculation: While it is probably not quite mind control, coupling Jin's power with a tiny clan (Less people to dilute the effect) Jin's personality is in a sense, overwriting the other Jin clan members, forcing them into their beatific states.

And now I am getting uncomfortable visions of the Ludivocio technique.

Quote from: Corgatha Taldorthar on March 16, 2010, 11:07:41 AM
Speculation: While it is probably not quite mind control, coupling Jin's power with a tiny clan (Less people to dilute the effect) Jin's personality is in a sense, overwriting the other Jin clan members, forcing them into their beatific states.

Your speculation is incorrect.   An emotional affinity and active clan leader doesn't overwrite an individual's personal mind and morals.  Mink is just naturally Mink.  Which is admittedly a frightening thing and I can understand why some would think it would require artificial boosting. The lil squigglet is a bundle of sugar and pep.

Aw, Mink... :c I hadn't really expected that story. I was expecting a RAWRGH CUBI-VERSUS-DRAGONS massacre thing, so that's comparatively low-key, yet pretty darn heartbreaking. Poor guy. He's kind of like Abel's counterpart though - while Abel doesn't seem to have moved on or forgiven or forgotten by the present day, Mink is perfectly capable of doing so and still wants to help others. Not only that, he wants to help others by continuing his mother's quest even though she died during a charitable effort. AND her murder was celebrated. God, that sucks. But Mink's still so happy and cheerful.

I think he's one of my favorite characters now. It's kind of weird how he recited an inherently depressing story to compound the tragedy in a relentlessly depressing comic and yet he's still endearing.

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 16, 2010, 07:36:04 AM
However, he's had ample time to notice the clan mark and figure it out himself, and if he's able to forgive his mother's murderer, he probably isn't the sort to hold a grudge against Aniz' son.

Yeah, him suddenly holding a massive grudge against Abel and rejecting him would totally contradict the speech he just gave. I feel like it's more likely that Abel will push Mink away.

You know what would be depressing? If Abel discovered that Mink was dead in the current comic-time because he was killed while trying to build a hospital for Beings. Cue the waterworks. :<

The problem with that speculation is that Jin probably hasn't let Mink wander freely in Furrae even after Abel's Story.

Quote from: Amber Williams on March 16, 2010, 11:19:02 AMMink is just naturally Mink.  Which is admittedly a frightening thing and I can understand why some would think it would require artificial boosting.

You kidding? I want to give that squiggly a hug. It's nice to see a benevolent Cubi.

Bah- it figures that people recognize clan marks but don't recognize which clan it is.  Adventurers can be jerks.  And Mink is... Impressive.

Now I'm really confused about Abel letting his clan mark be seen...

Quote from: Keaton the Black Jackal on March 16, 2010, 11:26:14 AM

Quote from: Amber Williams on March 16, 2010, 11:19:02 AMMink is just naturally Mink.  Which is admittedly a frightening thing and I can understand why some would think it would require artificial boosting.

You kidding? I want to give that squiggly a hug. It's nice to see a benevolent Cubi.

you'll haveta pry Janus off him(?) first, however.

that said his mink dose is being fulfilled lately... next time you talk to him, ask him about "Mr Squiggles"  :U

Quote from: Keaton the Black Jackal on March 16, 2010, 11:26:14 AM
The problem with that speculation is that Jin probably hasn't let Mink wander freely in Furrae even after Abel's Story.

I would think not also. Being of a clan that makes their lives bringing joy and happiness to others, I would think they are not terribly well versed in combat skills, compared to other clans/ members of the cubi race. Such a modest (yet naive) detriment would make Jin's members 'sitting ducks' as it were.

Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 16, 2010, 01:24:08 AMA true hero will help the needy regardless if they want it or not. A hero is not afraid to give his life. A hero does it because he is good, and because he knows it's right. If he has to die by their hands or by the ones trying to end theirs, it is still a sacrifice to give your life for those who will benefit most from it.
As one of my people once said "A very great vision is needed and the man who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky." Mink has a need to help beings. If that is what he desires, how can he deny who he is?

As much as it pains me given the particular context, I feel compelled to play the advocatus diaboli here for a moment and state that no, "I'm going to do something you don't want me to for your own good" is not automatically a particularly heroic stance to take. At least in part because 'I', presumably not actually all-knowing and infallible, might well turn out to be wrong about what's good for 'you'...but hey, no harm in ignoring what 'you' think and going ahead with 'my' plans anyway, right? After all, 'I' only mean well...

There's a reason there's a saying about a certain road that's paved with good intentions.

....Mink is the most adorable thing ever. Oh my god.

I'm going to be really sad when Abel's Story is over and we'll never see him again. D8

*Charles eeps*  You-you mean Mink's mom wasn't trying an evil scheme?   :eek

*quickly hides blood-stained sword*  It wasn't my fault!  Charline made me biased about Cubi!  I had a troubled childhood!   :<

Quote from: Amber Williams on March 16, 2010, 11:19:02 AM

Quote from: Corgatha Taldorthar on March 16, 2010, 11:07:41 AM
Speculation: While it is probably not quite mind control, coupling Jin's power with a tiny clan (Less people to dilute the effect) Jin's personality is in a sense, overwriting the other Jin clan members, forcing them into their beatific states.

Your speculation is incorrect.   An emotional affinity and active clan leader doesn't overwrite an individual's personal mind and morals.  Mink is just naturally Mink.  Which is admittedly a frightening thing and I can understand why some would think it would require artificial boosting. The lil squigglet is a bundle of sugar and pep.

Hmmm, interesting.

Oh well, back to the drawing board. And to be honest, this was far less frightening than the alternative.

Hizell had it in for Jin -- I bet the dragons distributed a list of 'evil evil clan marks' to adventurers, to help them finish the job. There's probably a moldy old important looking tome somewhere with a handy reference table.

'Jin is the clan of Joy, whose members feed on the souls of those who are happy and cheerful.'

Quote from: jeffh4 on March 16, 2010, 01:44:06 AMDon't remember which comic number it was, but recall that Abel told Dan that the majority of Cubi are jerks, especially when it comes to their food. . . uh, I mean beings.  Mink, Abel, and Fa'Lina (in some instances) are the exception.  Cubi don't have to work for their reputation, Mink's mom just fell victim to the ill-will generated by the thousands of others of her race.

I mean no offense when I say this, it's just that that almost sounds to me like 'they shouldn't bother working up a reputation of not being all bad,' and well, that brings up the 'better safe than sorry for the adventurers' view that ends up with unhappy endings for the exceptions to the stereotype, IMO.  I admit that they don't have to earn their general reputation, and that part of the whole doing things can make the whole look bad (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_252.php).  I just kinda wish that the adventurers would know that not all Cubi are evil (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_20.php) and if possible Cubi should be judged for who they are (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_253.php).  Hard, and risky, I know, but still.


Tapewolf, Rhyfe:  Well, my idea was more like 'Okay, we Cubi have spread the word that the Jin clan is good, so let's shift fake Jin clan-symbols where adventurers can see them so they won't want to attack us... Then we can lop their heads off when their guard is down (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_568.php).'  Yeah, then I realized that would lead to more deaths and more bad reputation.  And still, like Tapewolf said, it would take forever to learn all the clans, what with there being hundreds of clans out there (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/Leader01.php).


Amber, etc.: Well, I'd certainly hope that's the case.  I can imagine an affinity influencing their morals and beliefs - if not, well, I guess the leader can at least influence them though dream-meetings - but I'd hope it wouldn't brainwash them.  Even if I thought Mink's behavior was creepy (which I don't, I'm both relieved at seeing a Cubi like Mink and finding it adorable), I'd find it less creepy than taking away their right to be themselves, even inadvertently.


A. Lurker:  I partly agree in that our knowledge isn't perfect, that you should listen to the voice of reason, and that just because you have good intentions doesn't make you a hero.  However, I'm going to throw out that the ones trying to reason with you also have finite knowledge, and that if you truly believe what you want to do is right, even with others' reasoning taken into account, you should probably go out and do it.

So... I think I'm going to go with a couple sayings by a certain fantasy race to 'be kind to those less fortunate' and to 'favor the road traveled by few.'

</rambles>

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 01:17:54 AM
Poor Mink.  :mowsad Not only he does not seek revenge, but also is eager to follow the same path.  And he will likely end the same way because he does not realise how stupid it is to do this... helping those who will jump on his neck if they learn who he is. We say in my country that the wise man learns on others' mistakes and the dull man on his own ... well ... in this case, one gets no chance to learn the second way.

The saying I heared was, "A wise man learns from others' mistakes, a smart man learns from his own mistakes, and a fool makes the same mistake over and over again."
But I'm sure Mink won't let any adventure see her mark (and I doubt any adventure would look under her skirt looking for one).

Quote from: iceick on March 16, 2010, 02:41:36 PM
The saying I heared was, "A wise man learns from others' mistakes, a smart man learns from his own mistakes, and a fool makes the same mistake over and over again."
But I'm sure Mink won't let any adventure see her mark (and I doubt any adventure would look under her skirt looking for one).

I think those first two are the other way around...a wise man learns from his own mistakes, and the smart man from others...

Quote from: iceick on March 16, 2010, 02:41:36 PM
But I'm sure Mink won't let any adventure see her mark (and I doubt any adventure would look under her skirt looking for one).

That, or s/he runs a children's hospital backed by the Soulstealer family. There is a sense of poetic justice there: One man derails Jin's centuries of negotiation in that regard, only for his son to fast track the project.

*Edit* Also, it gives a  chance for Mink to show up in DMFA proper. The main comic is destressingly squiggle-free. :mowmeep

Quote from: A. Lurker on March 16, 2010, 12:53:13 PM

Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 16, 2010, 01:24:08 AMA true hero will help the needy regardless if they want it or not. A hero is not afraid to give his life. A hero does it because he is good, and because he knows it's right. If he has to die by their hands or by the ones trying to end theirs, it is still a sacrifice to give your life for those who will benefit most from it.
As one of my people once said "A very great vision is needed and the man who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky." Mink has a need to help beings. If that is what he desires, how can he deny who he is?

As much as it pains me given the particular context, I feel compelled to play the advocatus diaboli here for a moment and state that no, "I'm going to do something you don't want me to for your own good" is not automatically a particularly heroic stance to take. At least in part because 'I', presumably not actually all-knowing and infallible, might well turn out to be wrong about what's good for 'you'...but hey, no harm in ignoring what 'you' think and going ahead with 'my' plans anyway, right? After all, 'I' only mean well...

There's a reason there's a saying about a certain road that's paved with good intentions.

*Edit* I misread what A. Lurker posted. Sorry Lurker. I hope its okay if I edit this and just say I didn't mean to imply that always doing something against the will of other people is okay. However sometimes you are doing them a benefit even if they don't want it depending on the situation or whether or not you plan on using violence for their cooperation.  *Edit*

Quote from: terrycloth on March 16, 2010, 01:45:18 PM
Hizell had it in for Jin -- I bet the dragons distributed a list of 'evil evil clan marks' to adventurers, to help them finish the job. There's probably a moldy old important looking tome somewhere with a handy reference table.

'Jin is the clan of Joy, whose members feed on the souls of those who are happy and cheerful.'

This is amazingly plausible...

Aw, Why must Mink be so bubbly?  :U I would have full of revenge if the MURDER of my mother was CELEBRATED.  :cry  Mink you're amazing.  :3

I seemed to have overdawed at panel two... if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go clean my pants.

I guess if you stumbled unawares upon a powerful opponent with the ability to read your thoughts and emotions, your best bet would be being fast on the draw...

Hmm. Seeing Mink there only increases my need to break him and reduce him to a quivering pile of suffering and woe.

Er, I mean... give him hugs! Yeah! Tight hugs. Heh heh heh.

Kodus to Mink!  :3 For keeping a positive outlook on life!  :mowhappy

I just hope that if/when Jin allows him to leave the academy to help others, that he succeeds and there's no repeat of what happened to his mom.....  :(

(PS: Reeeally, wish I had a member from Jin right now........ :knifed)

Quote from: iceick on March 16, 2010, 02:41:36 PM
The saying I heared was, "A wise man learns from others' mistakes, a smart man learns from his own mistakes, and a fool makes the same mistake over and over again."
But I'm sure Mink won't let any adventure see her mark (and I doubt any adventure would look under her skirt looking for one).

I do not know - in my country the version i translated is accurate - the original (without diacritics as i prefer a qwerty keyboard due to programming n stuff) "Mudry sa uci na chybach inych, hlupy na svojich"
It seems Czechs and slovaks have a little higher standard for error-freeness in sayings :D

Alright, long-standing mystery finally solved: Mink is a girl. I don't see how the (absolutely adorable) second panel could leave any more room for doubt about this  :3

Quote from: Infranscia on March 16, 2010, 02:26:47 PM
A. Lurker:  I partly agree in that our knowledge isn't perfect, that you should listen to the voice of reason, and that just because you have good intentions doesn't make you a hero.  However, I'm going to throw out that the ones trying to reason with you also have finite knowledge, and that if you truly believe what you want to do is right, even with others' reasoning taken into account, you should probably go out and do it.

So... I think I'm going to go with a couple sayings by a certain fantasy race to 'be kind to those less fortunate' and to 'favor the road traveled by few.'

I think what makes the difference is if you take the ones you're trying to reason with serious or not. Mink's mother's intentions were without doubt good and honourable, but what she did in the end (and I'm sorry I'll have to join the devil's advocates here) was basically playing Christian missionary. She never actually asked the villagers if they want her to set up a hospital. She also already assumed that humans only think of Cubi as cruel monsters and that she needed to hide her true form. So she went in there, concealed, right from the start and never even gave the villagers a chance to change their mind about Cubi or think about how they could possibly benefit from having one in their village.
While giving a banquet to the adventures is undoublty cruel from the Cubi point of view, why should the villagers know any better? She didn't seem to have given them many opportunities to realize her intentions are actually genuine.

Summing up ... isn't it amazing how many things you can 'deduce' from a single speech bubble? :rolleyes

Quote from: Anker Steadfast on March 16, 2010, 10:25:48 AM
Mink is a woobie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie).

Nuuuuu... I wanted to say that! :U But yeah, he definitely belongs to the 'properly executed' category of woobies...

Quote from: 127.0.0.2 on March 16, 2010, 08:29:17 PM
Mink's mother's intentions were without doubt good and honourable...

Were they? We only have Mink's word for that, and there are a number of ways in which that might not be one hundred percent reliable.

Quote from: Pascal on March 16, 2010, 08:34:57 PM
Were they? We only have Mink's word for that, and there are a number of ways in which that might not be one hundred percent reliable.

Well, I assumed that, with Jin's clan and all. Even worse if they weren't :P

Quote from: 127.0.0.2 on March 16, 2010, 08:37:02 PM
Well, I assumed that, with Jin's clan and all. Even worse if they weren't :P

Hey, you don't need to be nice to feed on someone's joy. All you need is, say... a steady hand and a shot of the right chemicals.

Quote from: 127.0.0.2 on March 16, 2010, 08:29:17 PM
Alright, long-standing mystery finally solved: Mink is a girl. I don't see how the (absolutely adorable) second panel could leave any more room for doubt about this  :3
I think what makes the difference is if you take the ones you're trying to reason with serious or not. Mink's mother's intentions were without doubt good and honourable, but what she did in the end (and I'm sorry I'll have to join the devil's advocates here) was basically playing Christian missionary. She never actually asked the villagers if they want her to set up a hospital. She also already assumed that humans only think of Cubi as cruel monsters and that she needed to hide her true form. So she went in there, concealed, right from the start and never even gave the villagers a chance to change their mind about Cubi or think about how they could possibly benefit from having one in their village.
While giving a banquet to the adventures is undoublty cruel from the Cubi point of view, why should the villagers know any better? She didn't seem to have given them many opportunities to realize her intentions are actually genuine.

Hmm, if she would do as you said then her life would be that much shorter and entirely pointless as she would end close to how Destainia nearly did (and without her fighting skill i presume)
Let us face the reality - although a person might not be stupid, people as a mass are - history shows examples of helping hands being cut off...
And what the missionaries did is (in the parts where it was not accompanied by looting, rape or worse) not wrong - i mean i find it somewhat undesirable that somebody spreads an ideology i disagree with but other than that, it makes perfect sense , especially from the missionaries point of view - they were in their opinion saving the people from hell, and well , unlike in this case , no evidence ever existed against it (for it either but that is a different story)
All in all, the only person who is able to pull a "Carrot" and live is Carrot himself - he could probably give a guest lecture about life's value at SAIA and not get ripped apart.
Others must use more calculated means of achieving their goals

Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

Also, on clan marks and tattoos.  Given the medium it's not hard to imagine a clan mark would look very distinct from a typical ink tattoo.. and that's leaving out how most beings (or creatures posing as beings) in Furrae have.. you know.. Fur.   :P

Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 16, 2010, 01:24:08 AM
Mink's joy and enthusiasm is incredible. Almost reminds me of the flash (Wally West).

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 01:17:54 AM
Poor Mink.  :mowsad Not only he does not seek revenge, but also is eager to follow the same path.  And he will likely end the same way because he does not realise how stupid it is to do this... helping those who will jump on his neck if they learn who he is. We say in my country that the wise man learns on others' mistakes and the dull man on his own ... well ... in this case, one gets no chance to learn the second way.

A true hero will help the needy regardless if they want it or not. A hero is not afraid to give his life. A hero does it because he is good, and because he knows it's right. If he has to die by their hands or by the ones trying to end theirs, it is still a sacrifice to give your life for those who will benefit most from it.
As one of my people once said "A very great vision is needed and the man who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky." Mink has a need to help beings. If that is what he desires, how can he deny who he is?

I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

Honestly, I struggle with the idea that anyone would willingly mark themselves with something that's often read as "Attention Adventurers: Cut here to slay monster". I mean, seriously, imagine a trend in body-warmers made to look like dynamite and you can imagine how well that would go down.

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
Hmm, if she would do as you said then her life would be that much shorter and entirely pointless as she would end close to how Destainia nearly did (and without her fighting skill i presume)
Let us face the reality - although a person might not be stupid, people as a mass are - history shows examples of helping hands being cut off...
And what the missionaries did is (in the parts where it was not accompanied by looting, rape or worse) not wrong - i mean i find it somewhat undesirable that somebody spreads an ideology i disagree with but other than that, it makes perfect sense , especially from the missionaries point of view - they were in their opinion saving the people from hell, and well , unlike in this case , no evidence ever existed against it (for it either but that is a different story)
All in all, the only person who is able to pull a "Carrot" and live is Carrot himself - he could probably give a guest lecture about life's value at SAIA and not get ripped apart.
Others must use more calculated means of achieving their goals

Well, the "reality" is that Mink's mom was killed anyway, so her concealment apparently didn't help much in the matter.
But Destania's clan isn't exactly the one with the most Being-friendly affinity, so I don't think we can compare those two cases so easily. And I didn't mean for Mink's mom to run into the village shouting GOOD MORNING FELLOW VILLAGERS! I AM A CUBY BUT NO WORRIES I AM GOOD AND YOU ALL ARE GONNA BE HAPPYTIZED NOW! either. She could have tried to hide for first, tryng to earn the trust of a few individuals, maybe casually bringing up the point of Cubi in a conversation and so on...
Maybe a good comparision is that of animal researchers. There are a lot of people who managed to live among apes, brants or other wild animals, even though those animals normally avoid humans. And they didn't do that wearing an ape costume.

... hm. But the idea of Carrot at SAIA has something fascinating.

I would say...

Mink is not allowed to leave Saia - because he is insane.

Quote from: Janus Whitefurr on March 16, 2010, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

But.. it seems some of who had said this are female.... so the theory should not hold there !?
Besides looking at the clan leaders history strip, he appears male there , featurewise

Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
:confused Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent?  :<

Quote from: Professor Fate on March 16, 2010, 10:13:42 PM
Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
:confused Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent?  :<

How many times have you played D&D and worried about all the widows and orphans your Paladin created as he waded through the goblin ranks?

Actually, as GM, I'd make my players suffer through just that. If they didn't kill the young, then the young would grow up (quickly for goblinkind) and go after them or other humans in revenge. And if they did kill the young, then relatives of them would go after them for being so evil and vile as to kill children. =^-^=

Ah, happy days. Between forcing players to choose between killing non-human women and children or letting them later attack villages, accidentally bringing about intelligent sentient races that hunt illithids for their brains (because said brains helped them evolve intelligence), and twisting the unexpected ideas my players came up with and utilizing them in the campaigns... it's no wonder why people said I am evil. =^-^=

(Sadly, the gaming group fell apart after a divorce among two of the players. But I was suffering GM burnout by that time anyway, so it gave me an enforced rest.)

Quote from: Professor Fate on March 16, 2010, 10:13:42 PM
Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
:confused Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent?  :<

Well a Murphy's law states "never attribute to malice what you can accurately explain by stupidity"
Compare with conspiracy folk today - even a disproof of their argument is evidence that someone is trying hard to cover up something sinister.
I can readily imagine a hero rejoicing after lopping off mink's head of how he saved the people from an elaborate evil masterplan of soulsucking through universal healthcare.
I believe Aaryanna explained hero mentality quite well back there

Quote from: Tangent on March 16, 2010, 10:26:19 PM
Actually, as GM, I'd make my players suffer through just that. If they didn't kill the young, then the young would grow up (quickly for goblinkind) and go after them or other humans in revenge. And if they did kill the young, then relatives of them would go after them for being so evil and vile as to kill children. =^-^=

Ah, happy days. Between forcing players to choose between killing non-human women and children or letting them later attack villages, accidentally bringing about intelligent sentient races that hunt illithids for their brains (because said brains helped them evolve intelligence), and twisting the unexpected ideas my players came up with and utilizing them in the campaigns... it's no wonder why people said I am evil. =^-^=

Hmm,  as with flies - you kill one and seven come to funeral :D
Hunting illithids for brains? that sounds rather ... awesome - reminds me of the specimen 47something the borgs brought in from other universe.

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 10:18:50 PM

Quote from: Professor Fate on March 16, 2010, 10:13:42 PM
Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
:confused Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent?  :<

How many times have you played D&D and worried about all the widows and orphans your Paladin created as he waded through the goblin ranks?

Arguably, from an adventurers perspective, it's justifiable. The more time an adventurer takes to think this all out, the greater the chance that the 'cubi will cotton on and seize the initiative, and 'cubi are Dangerous with a big D. And, as I said earlier, if someone is dumb enough to wander around wearing a 'cubi mark, they're pretty much committing an equivalent of "suicide by cop".

Quote from: 127.0.0.2 on March 16, 2010, 09:33:46 PM

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
Hmm, if she would do as you said then her life would be that much shorter and entirely pointless as she would end close to how Destainia nearly did (and without her fighting skill i presume)
Let us face the reality - although a person might not be stupid, people as a mass are - history shows examples of helping hands being cut off...
And what the missionaries did is (in the parts where it was not accompanied by looting, rape or worse) not wrong - i mean i find it somewhat undesirable that somebody spreads an ideology i disagree with but other than that, it makes perfect sense , especially from the missionaries point of view - they were in their opinion saving the people from hell, and well , unlike in this case , no evidence ever existed against it (for it either but that is a different story)
All in all, the only person who is able to pull a "Carrot" and live is Carrot himself - he could probably give a guest lecture about life's value at SAIA and not get ripped apart.
Others must use more calculated means of achieving their goals

Well, the "reality" is that Mink's mom was killed anyway, so her concealment apparently didn't help much in the matter.
But Destania's clan isn't exactly the one with the most Being-friendly affinity, so I don't think we can compare those two cases so easily. And I didn't mean for Mink's mom to run into the village shouting GOOD MORNING FELLOW VILLAGERS! I AM A CUBY BUT NO WORRIES I AM GOOD AND YOU ALL ARE GONNA BE HAPPYTIZED NOW! either. She could have tried to hide for first, tryng to earn the trust of a few individuals, maybe casually bringing up the point of Cubi in a conversation and so on...
Maybe a good comparision is that of animal researchers. There are a lot of people who managed to live among apes, brants or other wild animals, even though those animals normally avoid humans. And they didn't do that wearing an ape costume.

... hm. But the idea of Carrot at SAIA has something fascinating.

Well , the reality followed from her disguise having a fatal flaw. A flawed disguise failing does not make disguises unworthy of attention, just as the fact that a dull knife might not work for cutting a hard piece of meat does not mean that teeth are better.
The researchers - there are not many to be able to pull it off and they definitely did not have the opportunity of morphing their appearance to a perfect ape

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 10:27:35 PM
Well a Murphy's law states "never attribute to malice what you can accurately explain by stupidity"

I believe you're refering to Hanlon's Razor. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle97h4eweh?from=Main.HanlonsRazor)

QuoteI believe Aaryanna explained hero mentality quite well back there

Ironically, seeing as how she IS the (stereo)typical soul-sucking "sees beings as mere cattle" `Cubi. 

Quote from: Pascal on March 16, 2010, 10:31:10 PM
Arguably, from an adventurers perspective, it's justifiable. The more time an adventurer takes to think this all out, the greater the chance that the 'cubi will cotton on and seize the initiative

I guess I'm just confused because I'm a logical thinker. I wouldn't want to hurt someone unless I had a SMART and THOUGHTOUT reason for it. I mean, Yes if you wait too long to get a reason it's too late.. But, it's like "Oh no a creature can kill us if we don't kill it first." I just don't see the sense in that.  :<

Quote from: Eibbor_N on March 16, 2010, 02:13:38 AM
"She once leaped across a desk and pummelled my principle. We had to move after that." :D

I thought people's principles were compromised by themselves, not pummeled by their mothers.

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 09:16:38 PM

Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 16, 2010, 01:24:08 AM
Mink's joy and enthusiasm is incredible. Almost reminds me of the flash (Wally West).

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 01:17:54 AM
Poor Mink.  :mowsad Not only he does not seek revenge, but also is eager to follow the same path.  And he will likely end the same way because he does not realise how stupid it is to do this... helping those who will jump on his neck if they learn who he is. We say in my country that the wise man learns on others' mistakes and the dull man on his own ... well ... in this case, one gets no chance to learn the second way.

A true hero will help the needy regardless if they want it or not. A hero is not afraid to give his life. A hero does it because he is good, and because he knows it's right. If he has to die by their hands or by the ones trying to end theirs, it is still a sacrifice to give your life for those who will benefit most from it.
As one of my people once said "A very great vision is needed and the man who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky." Mink has a need to help beings. If that is what he desires, how can he deny who he is?

I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

Running out and jumping off of a cliff is one thing. Giving your life to help others in a dangerous situation is called courage. We're all going to die someday. It's just a manner of when and how like I've said before. Having a long life means being able to do more numerous things. But sometimes one great act of self sacrifice is worth more than 1,000 years of self serving. You also seem to be assuming those who give of themselves don't think things through. Yes, many heroes have a back up plan if things fail, after all we are programed for self preservation.  But we can't shy away from the greatest we can achieve simply because of a high probability of death. One great sacrifice can also inspire greatness in others. When Patrick Henry O'Rorke gave his life rallying his men to fight off the enemy approaching Little Round Top, I'm most certain he helped inspire his men to push the enemy away. The battle may have been lost if he said "We're gonna die if we stay here, let them have the hill!" If he had made self sacrifice the last thing to consider, he would have exhausted all other options, until it was too late to make a difference.

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 09:16:38 PM
I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

I don't think anything Mink's mom did could be considered self-sacrifice or getting killed like a lemming.

If a natural disaster occurs, and people are trapped, but an individual is able to find a way to rescue them, but loses their own life in the process... then are they being heroic?  Or foolish?

Admittedly, the counterargument is most likely "But there must have been another way that would have been safer!", but I'd conjecture that there isn't always "another way".

Similarly, then, if a doctor provides decades of service to his or her community, providing medical aid and saving lives, only to lose their own in the end -- were they heroic or foolish?

Mink's mother provided medical assistance to multiple communities, and none of them apparently objected to having a hospital, medical assistance, or the training that resulted.  In the end, yes, she lost her life -- but even so, I suspect she would have felt that the results were worth the risk she undertook...

After this page, I find myself likeing Mink alot more, I hope he makes an appearance in the main arc.. and is alive :U

Quote from: Janus Whitefurr on March 16, 2010, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

btw, anyone else who almost can't help but add another letter to his name and chuckle?

Quote from: Professor Fate on March 16, 2010, 10:54:44 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 16, 2010, 10:31:10 PM
Arguably, from an adventurers perspective, it's justifiable. The more time an adventurer takes to think this all out, the greater the chance that the 'cubi will cotton on and seize the initiative

I guess I'm just confused because I'm a logical thinker. I wouldn't want to hurt someone unless I had a SMART and THOUGHTOUT reason for it. I mean, Yes if you wait too long to get a reason it's too late.. But, it's like "Oh no a creature can kill us if we don't kill it first." I just don't see the sense in that.  :<

So, the fact that a 'cubi is just an incredibly dangerous monster, held by common knowledge to be treacherous, evil and manipulative, doesn't strike you as a good enough reason? Keep in mind these guys have nothing to go on but personal experience and what they've been told, both of which point most strongly to the conclusion of "kill it with fire". Also remember that adventurers came about as a response to predation by creatures. If the majority of creatures were nice, there wouldn't be any adventurers.

Quote from: Professor Fate on March 16, 2010, 10:54:44 PMI guess I'm just confused because I'm a logical thinker. I wouldn't want to hurt someone unless I had a SMART and THOUGHTOUT reason for it. I mean, Yes if you wait too long to get a reason it's too late.. But, it's like "Oh no a creature can kill us if we don't kill it first." I just don't see the sense in that.  :<

No, your thinking like that not "because your a logical thinker", but because you have more information on 'cubi than the In-universe adventurers, and you aren't at risk of being torn to pieces for making a wrong judgement call. The strip makes several indications that trusting a 'cubi is a dangerous proposition, illustrated beautifully by Destania's lesson (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_568.php), when it works properly.

Case in point: Merlitz (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_566.php), after being treated "Nicely" by 'cubi, thinks that Fa'lina and other 'cubi aren't inherently bad, yet Fa'lina's following comments indicate that had he not been dating Aaryanna, Fa'lina would have had no qualms ruthlessly killing him. And again, a common trick of malevolent 'cubi is to think they are friendly, then evicerate unsuspecting prey.

So... honestly, the death of Mink's mom was tragic, but remember... Adventurers are usually those who have already been wronged by creatures in the past (or know someone who has), like Furrae's bunny Inigo Montoya. So, for them, it's not as much they aren't willing to "give creatures a chance" as much as they aren't willing to risk giving creatures a second chance after being traumatized once by non-beings.

Also keep in mind, even 'cubi admit their modus operandi is deceit... it's how they compete with Demons and Angels. So, the adventurers could be seen as fully justified in their (tragic) course of action. Furrae is a world where the various races will never get along because of the specializations, power discrepancies, and pride between them. Beings' only strengths are their sentience, numbers, and ability to work spectacularly well together to overcome adversity. And thanks to JyCorp, soon they will have really, really sweet weapons.

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 08:30:06 AM
So, the fact that a 'cubi is just an incredibly dangerous monster, held by common knowledge to be treacherous, evil and manipulative, doesn't strike you as a good enough reason? Keep in mind these guys have nothing to go on but personal experience and what they've been told, both of which point most strongly to the conclusion of "kill it with fire".

There's some truth in this.  As Dan says, there are lots of evil creatures out there and the main defence a Being has against them is by not giving them a chance to attack.
However, you could also say the same thing about bandits, and that doesn't entitle you to murder strangers in the forest just in case they're dangerous.

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 17, 2010, 08:47:41 AM
However, you could also say the same thing about bandits, and that doesn't entitle you to murder strangers in the forest just in case they're dangerous.

Yeah, but what about strangers wearing mask who are lurking in the bushes holding swords? I mean, they might be there for perfectly innocent reasons, but if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, chances are we have a member of the genus anatidae on our hands. Of course, if they then turned out to be frat boys conducting a hazing, you would feel like a bit of a goose.

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 10:18:50 PM
How many times have you played D&D and worried about all the widows and orphans your Paladin created as he waded through the goblin ranks?

Monk, actually.  Our group never fought any goblins, but in every case where they did fight, it was against things or people that were already trying to kill them. (Ask about kobolds sometime.  Go ahead, ask.)

Quote from: Jasonrevall on March 16, 2010, 11:45:09 PM

Running out and jumping off of a cliff is one thing. Giving your life to help others in a dangerous situation is called courage. We're all going to die someday. It's just a manner of when and how like I've said before. Having a long life means being able to do more numerous things. But sometimes one great act of self sacrifice is worth more than 1,000 years of self serving. You also seem to be assuming those who give of themselves don't think things through. Yes, many heroes have a back up plan if things fail, after all we are programed for self preservation.  But we can't shy away from the greatest we can achieve simply because of a high probability of death. One great sacrifice can also inspire greatness in others. When Patrick Henry O'Rorke gave his life rallying his men to fight off the enemy approaching Little Round Top, I'm most certain he helped inspire his men to push the enemy away. The battle may have been lost if he said "We're gonna die if we stay here, let them have the hill!" If he had made self sacrifice the last thing to consider, he would have exhausted all other options, until it was too late to make a difference.

Hmm. we probably are, but for Cubi it is not that sure - after all, tri-wings are immortal (for me, immortal means does not die by itself , as compared to invulnerable - impossible to be killed)
The thing you state is quite possibly a good example of heroism (i am not very familiar with the battle - it seems to be one of the american wars, but i know some similar examples from slovak national uprising) but it changes nothing to what i say.
After all, look at Stalingrad battle - i am sure that many of the common german soldiers there put forwards impressive displays of determination and courage, comparable with the soviet soldiers even but it changes nothing on the fact that the decision to hold the city was utterly stupid and pointless feat, which made german war situation much worse.
The difference is that the guy who you described pretty much filled the description before  - although after his death, he achieved a honorable cause - military victory.

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 11:05:46 AM
The difference is that the guy who you described pretty much filled the description before  - although after his death, he achieved a honorable cause - military victory.

Yeah, but you're looking at that with hindsight. It's not like people know in advance how this stuff's going to work out. There's always an element of risk. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", as the saying goes, and the reward can often be proportionate to the risk involved in attaining it.

Quote from: Mischa on March 17, 2010, 12:34:23 AM

Quote from: danman on March 16, 2010, 09:16:38 PM
I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

I don't think anything Mink's mom did could be considered self-sacrifice or getting killed like a lemming.

If a natural disaster occurs, and people are trapped, but an individual is able to find a way to rescue them, but loses their own life in the process... then are they being heroic?  Or foolish?

Admittedly, the counterargument is most likely "But there must have been another way that would have been safer!", but I'd conjecture that there isn't always "another way".

Similarly, then, if a doctor provides decades of service to his or her community, providing medical aid and saving lives, only to lose their own in the end -- were they heroic or foolish?

Mink's mother provided medical assistance to multiple communities, and none of them apparently objected to having a hospital, medical assistance, or the training that resulted.  In the end, yes, she lost her life -- but even so, I suspect she would have felt that the results were worth the risk she undertook...

The lemming applied more to mink than his mother, but anyways..
There is something of a difference. If she was killed (by enemy or by natural means) while saving other cubi, or her clan leader or whatever else, that would be heroic, yes.
But, when we look at what has happened - she set up several hospitals in communities well, hostile to her kind... good for the beings , indifferent for cubi.
Then, she made one, got killed in the process, giving the locals yet another story of cubi vileness, and i imagine if anyone else will try to set up a hospital , he will be double screened for being a cubi , because although not necessarily smart, beings learn too.
Overall result?  bad for her, bad for cubi indifferent to beings ...
Besides, in any case she was helping a probable enemy :D (this brings reference to the old joke how a guy in military school around here came in to class with jeans on. "Soldier, why are you wearing the clothing of a probable enemy?" "Because it is a probable war trophy!")

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:13:54 AM

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 11:05:46 AM
The difference is that the guy who you described pretty much filled the description before  - although after his death, he achieved a honorable cause - military victory.

Yeah, but you're looking at that with hindsight. It's not like people know in advance how this stuff's going to work out. There's always an element of risk. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", as the saying goes, and the reward can often be proportionate to the risk involved in attaining it.

It is true, however to my defense there are two things - One is that it might have been an important battle (again i do not know) in which case there is the large element of "will life be any good if the enemy executes us when giving up, or they win and install their version of reign of terror?" (this was a large element in the heroic acts of soviet soldiers, specially when the stupid Commisar directive of hitlerites became known - executing all political commisars ,and if i remember right, party members, in an unit captured ....  (there were complaints because of this from german officers upwards because of this reason even)
Secondly the victory truly makes the act more heroic - there are tens thousands who died holding some position important or not - where it failed they are still mentioned, but it comes nowhere comparable to those who succeed.

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 08:14:58 AM

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

My youngest brother had a roommate that came across as a little effeminate. He now has a wife and kids.
Masculine girl? You mean like Kristen Johnston's "Sally" in 3rd Rock From The Sun? :mowmeep

Quote, anyone else who almost can't help but add another letter to his name and chuckle?

Smink? Minkl? Minka? Mink'd? ...I don't see it.

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
It is true, however to my defense there are two things ...

Just for future reference, as a rule you're not really supposed to do two consecutive posts like that.  If you're replying to two different people, the idea is to have both replies in the same post.  You can use the 'insert quote' link to make this easier  :3

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
It is true, however to my defense there are two things - One is that it might have been an important battle (again i do not know) in which case there is the large element of "will life be any good if the enemy executes us when giving up, or they win and install their version of reign of terror?" (this was a large element in the heroic acts of soviet soldiers, specially when the stupid Commisar directive of hitlerites became known - executing all political commisars ,and if i remember right, party members, in an unit captured ....  (there were complaints because of this from german officers upwards because of this reason even)
Secondly the victory truly makes the act more heroic - there are tens thousands who died holding some position important or not - where it failed they are still mentioned, but it comes nowhere comparable to those who succeed.

I really think you should drop Stalingrad as an example. That battle was pretty much decided by who could afford to sustain their stupidity for the longest. It was the Special Olympics of World War 2.

In any event, heroism is a lot like faith. It's intensely personal. Two people can look at the actions of a third person and see completely different things. Personally, I've never seen or even heard of someone I'd consider a legitimate hero.

Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 17, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
Masculine girl? You mean like Kristen Johnston's "Sally" in 3rd Rock From The Sun? :mowmeep

No, she was definitely all woman.

Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 17, 2010, 11:34:04 AM

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 08:14:58 AM

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

My youngest brother had a roommate that came across as a little effeminate. He now has a wife and kids.
Masculine girl? You mean like Kristen Johnston's "Sally" in 3rd Rock From The Sun? :mowmeep

well, i was going more for "girl who looks like a guy"

Quote, anyone else who almost can't help but add another letter to his name and chuckle?

Smink? Minkl? Minka? Mink'd? ...I don't see it.
[/quote]

And yes, what i meant was one of the ones you got, Minka. look it up on wikipedia to get it.
also, thanks for giving me another.
"smink" in swedish = make-up

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 12:20:54 PM


And yes, what i meant was one of the ones you got, Minka. look it up on wikipedia to get it.
also, thanks for giving me another.
"smink" in swedish = make-up

Yay, Minka.

Also; Smink is make-up in dutch as well.

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
In any event, heroism is a lot like faith. It's intensely personal. Two people can look at the actions of a third person and see completely different things. Personally, I've never seen or even heard of someone I'd consider a legitimate hero.

Oh?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/features/2379033/ ?

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 17, 2010, 12:57:04 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
In any event, heroism is a lot like faith. It's intensely personal. Two people can look at the actions of a third person and see completely different things. Personally, I've never seen or even heard of someone I'd consider a legitimate hero.

Oh?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/features/2379033/ ?

Not only that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Matz#United_Flight_232

I know it's Wiki, but what can ya do. :<

And for historical examples, although I fear I am violating Godwin's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Wallenberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Lazowski

Quote from: Keaton the Black Jackal on March 17, 2010, 01:17:28 PM

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 17, 2010, 12:57:04 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
In any event, heroism is a lot like faith. It's intensely personal. Two people can look at the actions of a third person and see completely different things. Personally, I've never seen or even heard of someone I'd consider a legitimate hero.

Oh?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/features/2379033/ ?

Not only that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Matz#United_Flight_232

I know it's Wiki, but what can ya do. :<

And for historical examples, although I fear I am violating Godwin's Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raoul_Wallenberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Lazowski

Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 01:39:30 PM
Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Well, curses. Back to Wikipedia I go! *flies*

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 08:14:58 AM

Quote from: Janus Whitefurr on March 16, 2010, 09:29:38 PM

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

Not hard at all, but even Taun has something resembling boobies.   :giggle

Quote from: Keaton the Black Jackal on March 17, 2010, 01:45:49 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 01:39:30 PM
Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Well, curses. Back to Wikipedia I go! *flies*

It wasn't supposed to be a challenge, but I appreciate the enthusiasm you're displaying on my behalf. ^^

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 01:39:30 PM
Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Hmm, if what Lazowski did is not grandiose enough for you then i have problems imagining what would be.
I mean, he in a most clever and well thought way saved several thousand people from the fascists!

But maybe it differs in the conception of what is a hero - for me a hero is most usually a common person who, when it is needed and an opportunity arises does something which although might be risky achieves a great goal

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 17, 2010, 11:36:39 AM

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
It is true, however to my defense there are two things ...

Just for future reference, as a rule you're not really supposed to do two consecutive posts like that.  If you're replying to two different people, the idea is to have both replies in the same post.  You can use the 'insert quote' link to make this easier  :3

Sorry, you see - in the other places where i post there is no such thing as this facility. I will know better next time!

Edit: Hmm, the only thing i could come up is Minsk, and then i was left wondering why the hell should belarussian capital be a funny word

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 12:20:54 PM

Quote from: AmigaDragon link=topic=7149.msg317041#msg317041
Smink? Minkl? Minka? Mink'd? ...I don't see it.

And yes, what i meant was one of the ones you got, Minka. look it up on wikipedia to get it.
also, thanks for giving me another.
"smink" in swedish = make-up

And "house" is funny because...?

Quote from: Tapewolf on March 16, 2010, 07:36:04 AM

Quote from: Les on March 16, 2010, 03:54:36 AM
This is the start of where Abel actively distances himself from Mink, putting extra effort into getting Mink to 'go away' and sever all ties.... so that Abel won't be hurt when Mink goes out into the world and inevitably (in Abel's view) gets himself killed.

I was wondering if Mink distances himself from Abel when he finds out that his Dad was the one who screwed up the Zinvth hospital plan.
However, he's had ample time to notice the clan mark and figure it out himself, and if he's able to forgive his mother's murderer, he probably isn't the sort to hold a grudge against Aniz' son.

Could it be more like Abel becomes close friends with Mink after this and then something happens to Mink that makes Abel give up friends all together?

Abel seemes more tolerant to Mink than he is with most people. But that is a difference of a few hundred years when you compare then and now.

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 01:39:30 PM
Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Could you be more specific about what sort of 'grandiosity' you are looking for?  The examples above saved thousands of lives, so the scope of their accomplishments are certainly grand.  

Are you looking for a certain "larger-than-life" personality?  Someone who has garnered a cult following/legendary status?  For reference, here's the Webster's definition for hero:

A person of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

As far as heroic war stories, here are some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/wwII-a-f.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman

...No dice? :<

God I love Batman.

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 02:05:28 PM
Hmm, if what Lazowski did is not grandiose enough for you then i have problems imagining what would be.
I mean, he in a most clever and well thought way saved several thousand people from the fascists!

But maybe it differs in the conception of what is a hero - for me a hero is most usually a common person who, when it is needed and an opportunity arises does something which although might be risky achieves a great goal

Quote from: jeffh4 on March 17, 2010, 02:33:10 PM
Could you be more specific about what sort of 'grandiosity' you are looking for?  The examples above saved thousands of lives, so the scope of their accomplishments are certainly grand. 

Are you looking for a certain "larger-than-life" personality?  Someone who has garnered a cult following/legendary status?  For reference, here's the Webster's definition for hero:

A person of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

As far as heroic war stories, here are some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/wwII-a-f.html

I wish I could tell you guys what it would take, but I don't know because I've never really seen it. I just feel that a hero should inspire you, or speak to you on some level. The closest out of the examples provided so far would probably be Alvin York, and that may just be because his Wikipedia entry contains some of his own words. It gives me more of a sense of the man.

Quote from: Keaton the Black Jackal on March 17, 2010, 02:41:13 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman

...No dice? :<

God I love Batman.

Now, there are a lot of elements to Batman that I dig, but his self-righteous attitude can all too often get right up my nose. Weirdly, his tendency to create itemised lists detailing how to murder all his friends doesn't bother me in the least...

Quote from: jeffh4 on March 17, 2010, 02:33:10 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 01:39:30 PM
Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Could you be more specific about what sort of 'grandiosity' you are looking for?  The examples above saved thousands of lives, so the scope of their accomplishments are certainly grand.  

Are you looking for a certain "larger-than-life" personality?  Someone who has garnered a cult following/legendary status?  For reference, here's the Webster's definition for hero:

A person of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.

As far as heroic war stories, here are some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
http://www.history.army.mil/html/moh/wwII-a-f.html

To add some our ones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maresiev  - a soviet pilot ace who flew (and shot down germans) with both leg prosthetics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozhedub - a soviet pilot which shot down a load of german planes , including the nearly unbeatable Me-262

As heroes of labour go, Sergej Pavlovic Korolyov was one certainly - he was the man responsible for pretty much all of Soviet space program's sucesses in 50's and 60's

For me, when it comes to being heroic, it often isn't so much reliant on a grand scheme or how much they change the world, so much that doing something regardless of whether or not the world is going to recognize or even know it happened.  Because it was the good thing to do.

An example off the top of my head is Arland Williams

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arland_Williams if you wanna wiki) who during the time the plane was crashed in the icy river and was given multiple chances to tie himself to safety, he instead gave up his chance each time to ensure the other people got out before him.  In the end just as the last person before him got put to safety, the plane sunk and he was killed.  He could have lived, no one would have blamed him for taking a turn for the rope, but instead he chose knowing full well what could happen to give a complete stranger he never met that chance.

To me he is very much a hero because I can only hope that should the situation ever happen to me, that I could be as marginally as brave and altruistic.  And to me a hero isn't so much someone who saves the world but reminds you that there are good things in the world worth saving.

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 01:39:30 PM
Sorry, guys, but none of that really does it for me. I mean, all those people deserve a slap on the back, it was damned decent of them and all, but... It all lacks a certain grandiosity, I suppose.

Odd. I thought staying under a burning tanker truck and trailer full of petrol, a pillar of flame 5 stories high that the local airport had to divert planes around, just for your $12.50/hr ? And just so the little 12yo girl under it doesn't have to die alone? Not only that, at one point the other firefighters couldn't stay close enough, due to the heat, and basically had to leave him there under a fire blanket and back off.

That, to me, is pretty damn heroic. Maybe it's just me.

Edit:

Quote from: danman on March 17, 2010, 02:54:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maresiev  - a soviet pilot ace who flew (and shot down germans) with both leg prosthetics

Sounds a lot like Douglas Bader, an english gentleman of much the same cloth. Both legs removed in a plane crash, one above and one below the knee, and continued to fly fighter combat ops because he could, did, and was very successful at it.

Also was involved in much of the development of the British Air Force tactics, which were their staple structure for the next 30 years or more.

Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on March 17, 2010, 05:36:38 PM
Odd. I thought staying under a burning tanker truck and trailer full of petrol, a pillar of flame 5 stories high that the local airport had to divert planes around, just for your $12.50/hr ? And just so the little 12yo girl under it doesn't have to die alone? Not only that, at one point the other firefighters couldn't stay close enough, due to the heat, and basically had to leave him there under a fire blanket and back off.

That, to me, is pretty damn heroic. Maybe it's just me.

See, this one I particularly don't get. The article says "while colleagues fought to save both their lives, Mr Kennedy comforted the badly hurt girl", which sounds to me like he got in the way while they did the actual work. Apparently, many of his colleagues feel the same way...

Edit: This isn't getting too off-topic, is it?

Quote from: Amber Williams on March 17, 2010, 05:18:03 PM
For me, when it comes to being heroic, it often isn't so much reliant on a grand scheme or how much they change the world, so much that doing something regardless of whether or not the world is going to recognize or even know it happened.  Because it was the good thing to do.

An example off the top of my head is Arland Williams

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arland_Williams if you wanna wiki) who during the time the plane was crashed in the icy river and was given multiple chances to tie himself to safety, he instead gave up his chance each time to ensure the other people got out before him.  In the end just as the last person before him got put to safety, the plane sunk and he was killed.  He could have lived, no one would have blamed him for taking a turn for the rope, but instead he chose knowing full well what could happen to give a complete stranger he never met that chance.

To me he is very much a hero because I can only hope that should the situation ever happen to me, that I could be as marginally as brave and altruistic.  And to me a hero isn't so much someone who saves the world but reminds you that there are good things in the world worth saving.

Altruistic very much, but i am not so sure if heroic is the right word - The others were doing the rescuing , so pretty much only thing he achieved is that he died instead of someone else,,,
An example of small scale heroism from the same accident would be mr. Skutnik who saved a drowning woman by jumping into the ice-cold water himself and dragging her out, thus saving one more life.

But who cares anyway.. It is important everyone has some heroes at least.

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
I really think you should drop Stalingrad as an example. That battle was pretty much decided by who could afford to sustain their stupidity for the longest. It was the Special Olympics of World War 2.

Okay. First, that's rather insulting. The people who participate in the Special Olympics didn't ask to be the way they are. Many were born that way. Others lost limbs in accidents or due to infection or the like. The point of the Special Olympics is that these people are persevering and working hard to overcome the problems they suffer from. And literally, there are no losers, either in the Special Olympics or in the regular Olympics. Just to have a chance to participate... that in and of itself is a great victory and shows skill and ability. Who gives a feth if you don't win the Gold or whatever? You still did your best. That's what matters.

Second, Hitler's war against Russia would have succeeded except for two things. One, the Soviets managed to convince Britain and the U.S. to open a war on a second front, which forced Hitler to split his attention. If the U.S. had waited one year further to invade? Hitler may have defeated the Soviets... and we would have had a much more difficult time in France and Italy as a result. Two, one of the worse winters in written European history hit, to the point that oil froze in engines. If the winter had been milder, the Nazis would have been able to send additional supplies and vehicles into the Soviet Union and may very well have taken Stalingrad and Moscow. The fact is, we (the Allies) got lucky. While we would have eventually prevailed in any event (as the U.S. was untouched by the war and able to build a lot of tanks and ships that Germany and Japan couldn't effectively touch), it would have been a far bloodier war if the Soviets had fallen... all because of a winter far colder than normal.

Quote from: Tangent on March 17, 2010, 07:05:39 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
I really think you should drop Stalingrad as an example. That battle was pretty much decided by who could afford to sustain their stupidity for the longest. It was the Special Olympics of World War 2.

Okay. First, that's rather insulting. The people who participate in the Special Olympics didn't ask to be the way they are. Many were born that way. Others lost limbs in accidents or due to infection or the like. The point of the Special Olympics is that these people are persevering and working hard to overcome the problems they suffer from. And literally, there are no losers, either in the Special Olympics or in the regular Olympics. Just to have a chance to participate... that in and of itself is a great victory and shows skill and ability. Who gives a feth if you don't win the Gold or whatever? You still did your best. That's what matters.

Second, Hitler's war against Russia would have succeeded except for two things. One, the Soviets managed to convince Britain and the U.S. to open a war on a second front, which forced Hitler to split his attention. If the U.S. had waited one year further to invade? Hitler may have defeated the Soviets... and we would have had a much more difficult time in France and Italy as a result. Two, one of the worse winters in written European history hit, to the point that oil froze in engines. If the winter had been milder, the Nazis would have been able to send additional supplies and vehicles into the Soviet Union and may very well have taken Stalingrad and Moscow. The fact is, we (the Allies) got lucky. While we would have eventually prevailed in any event (as the U.S. was untouched by the war and able to build a lot of tanks and ships that Germany and Japan couldn't effectively touch), it would have been a far bloodier war if the Soviets had fallen... all because of a winter far colder than normal.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I doubt I could argue the point without offending your sensibilities even further. All I will say is that pretty much everyone thought Hitler making a move on Russia when he already had his hands full elsewhere was stupid, and that the Russian tactic of "five guys to a rifle, one of you pick it up when the guy who has it now gets shot" pretty obviously lacked... finesse.

Quote from: Tangent on March 17, 2010, 07:05:39 PM

Second, Hitler's war against Russia would have succeeded except for two things. One, the Soviets managed to convince Britain and the U.S. to open a war on a second front, which forced Hitler to split his attention. If the U.S. had waited one year further to invade? Hitler may have defeated the Soviets... and we would have had a much more difficult time in France and Italy as a result. Two, one of the worse winters in written European history hit, to the point that oil froze in engines. If the winter had been milder, the Nazis would have been able to send additional supplies and vehicles into the Soviet Union and may very well have taken Stalingrad and Moscow. The fact is, we (the Allies) got lucky. While we would have eventually prevailed in any event (as the U.S. was untouched by the war and able to build a lot of tanks and ships that Germany and Japan couldn't effectively touch), it would have been a far bloodier war if the Soviets had fallen... all because of a winter far colder than normal.

Sorry , i am not really glad to discuss the great war here, but you got it ass-up.
At the time the fabled second front was opened, delayed as much as it was, hitler was already broken.
The war might have lasted a year longer, and be far more bloody than what it was, but at this point it would take a very incompetent leadership (and those were weeded out in the first years of the war) to NOT win for the soviets.
Besides the motives  of the west in the second front being opened were everything but altruistic... (hint hint If stalin won by himself, most of europe would be socialist => Uncle Sam  disapproves)

Quote from: AmigaDragon on March 17, 2010, 02:07:08 PM

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 12:20:54 PM

Quote from: AmigaDragon link=topic=7149.msg317041#msg317041
Smink? Minkl? Minka? Mink'd? ...I don't see it.

And yes, what i meant was one of the ones you got, Minka. look it up on wikipedia to get it.
also, thanks for giving me another.
"smink" in swedish = make-up

And "house" is funny because...?

ok, missed that one since i (obviously) know what i'm talking about. check the disambiguation page. second entry.

Quote from: Les on March 17, 2010, 01:48:18 PM

Quote from: psilorder on March 17, 2010, 08:14:58 AM

Quote from: Janus Whitefurr on March 16, 2010, 09:29:38 PM
They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

Not hard at all, but even Taun has something resembling boobies.   :giggle

Yeah, i know. :)

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 07:20:47 PM
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I doubt I could argue the point without offending your sensibilities even further. All I will say is that pretty much everyone thought Hitler making a move on Russia when he already had his hands full elsewhere was stupid, and that the Russian tactic of "five guys to a rifle, one of you pick it up when the guy who has it now gets shot" pretty obviously lacked... finesse.

People may have thought it stupid, but Nazi Germany had spent the previous year laying the groundwork for the purges in Stalin's military machine. These purges were why the Soviet war against Finland (which was a nominal ally of the Germans, in so far that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of way) was less than successful, and which revealed that by convincing Stalin that the officers in his military were plotting against him and needed to be eliminated, Stalin had fallen for the bait, killed almost everyone who could keep the Soviet army together, and that the time was ripe to attack. Don't forget, the Germans managed to get quite close to Moscow before things fell apart, which is a lot bit better than Napoleon did.

If the weather had been kinder, if the Germans hadn't started killing every Soviet they could get their hands on, instead of entering as "liberators" who were going to stop the purges and systemic murders, or if Hitler had listened to his generals and continued the offensive against Moscow earlier instead of securing the Ukraine, then the Soviets would have fallen. I've studied World War II, both in college (history minor) and on my own. Both sides suffered through inept leadership (both Hitler and Stalin, though Stalin did learn from his very costly mistakes).

But that's going on a massive tangent here.

BTW, you do realize that Mink's mother did have an ulterior motive here. She and her kind were strengthened by joy and happiness. By creating hospitals and curing the sick, she was enhancing her own power. Thus she was not creating hospitals out of a sense of charity... but instead out of a desire to feed and create a harvest of joy from which she could live off of. The "benefit" of the beings she was healing was secondary to her own desires. Thus the adventurer was quite justified in killing her.

I'm just gonna butt in here to say two things: One, that Mink is even more awesome and maybe even a little heroic, what with the forgiveness and tolerance and such in the face of massive head-explodifying racism (speciesism?) against cubi.

Two, does anyone remember Godwin's Law (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law")? ;)

Quote from: Tangent on March 17, 2010, 09:40:09 PM
BTW, you do realize that Mink's mother did have an ulterior motive here. She and her kind were strengthened by joy and happiness. By creating hospitals and curing the sick, she was enhancing her own power. Thus she was not creating hospitals out of a sense of charity... but instead out of a desire to feed and create a harvest of joy from which she could live off of. The "benefit" of the beings she was healing was secondary to her own desires. Thus the adventurer was quite justified in killing her.

I would hardly say that being selfish constitutes justifiable grounds for gacking someone. If that were the case, anyone who ever ran anything with the intention of making a profit would be fair game.

Quote from: Tangent on March 17, 2010, 09:40:09 PM
People may have thought it stupid, but Nazi Germany had spent the previous year laying the groundwork for the purges in Stalin's military machine. These purges were why the Soviet war against Finland (which was a nominal ally of the Germans, in so far that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of way) was less than successful, and which revealed that by convincing Stalin that the officers in his military were plotting against him and needed to be eliminated, Stalin had fallen for the bait, killed almost everyone who could keep the Soviet army together, and that the time was ripe to attack. Don't forget, the Germans managed to get quite close to Moscow before things fell apart, which is a lot bit better than Napoleon did.

Sorry, Mr. i am the evidence policeman, show your documents!
Edit: this makes it better:
(http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7022/evidencep.jpg)

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If the weather had been kinder, if the Germans hadn't started killing every Soviet they could get their hands on, instead of entering as "liberators" who were going to stop the purges and systemic murders, or if Hitler had listened to his generals and continued the offensive against Moscow earlier instead of securing the Ukraine, then the Soviets would have fallen. I've studied World War II, both in college (history minor) and on my own. Both sides suffered through inept leadership (both Hitler and Stalin, though Stalin did learn from his very costly mistakes).

But that's going on a massive tangent here.

So you basically say if the weather was favourable, and if germany did not make most of its blunders while soviets would, Hitler would have won?
Aah aah, i'm melting! The flash of the obvious got me full on!

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BTW, you do realize that Mink's mother did have an ulterior motive here. She and her kind were strengthened by joy and happiness. By creating hospitals and curing the sick, she was enhancing her own power. Thus she was not creating hospitals out of a sense of charity... but instead out of a desire to feed and create a harvest of joy from which she could live off of. The "benefit" of the beings she was healing was secondary to her own desires. Thus the adventurer was quite justified in killing her.

*Head asplodes*
*gets new artificial head* Aah, much better!
There is no such thing as a sense of charity as you state it here. Everyone even charitable does it, because he enjoys the happiness he creates in others - the only difference with Mink's mom was that she literally lived from it.
I do not know about you, but i would gladly cooperate with someone who enhances his power by curing me, especially since the alternative tends to be dying and/or being in pain.
Except for rare cases, motivation behind deed does not matter, what happens is important

Quote from: Tangent on March 17, 2010, 07:05:39 PM

Quote from: Pascal on March 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
I really think you should drop Stalingrad as an example. That battle was pretty much decided by who could afford to sustain their stupidity for the longest. It was the Special Olympics of World War 2.

Okay. First, that's rather insulting. The people who participate in the Special Olympics didn't ask to be the way they are. Many were born that way. Others lost limbs in accidents or due to infection or the like. The point of the Special Olympics is that these people are persevering and working hard to overcome the problems they suffer from. And literally, there are no losers, either in the Special Olympics or in the regular Olympics. Just to have a chance to participate... that in and of itself is a great victory and shows skill and ability. Who gives a feth if you don't win the Gold or whatever? You still did your best. That's what matters.

Second, Hitler's war against Russia would have succeeded except for two things. One, the Soviets managed to convince Britain and the U.S. to open a war on a second front, which forced Hitler to split his attention. If the U.S. had waited one year further to invade? Hitler may have defeated the Soviets... and we would have had a much more difficult time in France and Italy as a result. Two, one of the worse winters in written European history hit, to the point that oil froze in engines. If the winter had been milder, the Nazis would have been able to send additional supplies and vehicles into the Soviet Union and may very well have taken Stalingrad and Moscow. The fact is, we (the Allies) got lucky. While we would have eventually prevailed in any event (as the U.S. was untouched by the war and able to build a lot of tanks and ships that Germany and Japan couldn't effectively touch), it would have been a far bloodier war if the Soviets had fallen... all because of a winter far colder than normal.

Both the original quote, and the response to it, are riddled with historical inaccuracy.

Let us start with the statement that "I really think you should drop Stalingrad as an example. That battle was pretty much decided by who could afford to sustain their stupidity for the longest. It was the Special Olympics of World War 2"

I would recommend, because it can argue my point far more eloquently than I, "The Beginning of the Road: The Story of the Battle for Stalingrad," by Vasily Chuikov (the soviet commander of the 64th army and senior commander for the city of Stalingrad). Look from the Soviet perspective. The Luftwaffe has far more, and superior air power to you, and it's far enough south that the weather stays clear, even in the wintertime. It might get cold, but annual precipitation in and around Stalingrad averages at around 12.5 inches a year, with most of it falling in June. link (http://24hourincome.info/blog/?p=175), so the planes are likely hammering things in the open.

Despite popular perception of the Wehrmacht being this armored column smashing through things, the armored corps of Germany was inferior to the Soviets in a purely engineering sense. This is before the Panther tank came out in force, so the mainstays of the Germans were the PZIIIE and the PZIVD. Both tanks had worse armor protection and weaker cannons (superior anti-infantry weapons on the PZIV though) than the main Soviet opponent, the T-34. Furthermore, the T-34s were built in far greater numbers. The main problem that the Soviet tanks had, in fact, was their lack of air cover, and vulnerability to being bombed, as well as a veterancy issue, with the Wehrmact being far more experienced.

The "one rifle to five soldiers" thing, is largely a myth, and a holdover from WW1, wherein the Russian supply situation was far worse. In fact, soviet assault plans for during the city relied extensively on grenade throwing and automatic weapon usage, neither of which are items you'd expect an out of supply force to have.  (see book, especially the end note, where he goes into squad level tactics). In fact, during the battle, Soviet rates of fire were higher, and had similar accuracy to Wehrmacht soldiers. What problems the Soviets did usually have were for aviation  and vehicle fuel, as well as back line logistics. (Lend lease sent 450,000 trucks to the soviets in 1942 alone)


It wasn't the strength of any particular branch of the German army per' se that led to their immense tactical success, but rather the coordination between branches being so precise that was what lead to the conquest of most of Europe.   Now consider the Soviet position. It is remarkably similar to the Viet Cong tactics in the Vietnam war. By "hugging" the enemy, keeping their lines close to yours, you can negate most of the effect of the opposing air power. This gets even worse in a city, because even when it's mostly rubble, shattered buildings do a great job of hiding troop positions from the air. Furthermore, armor does not function well in cities. Tanks are relatively easy to destroy by massed fire, (bazookas were fairly common in WW2), especially when they cannot move easily. Furtermore, they are going to be more or less restricted to the streets, which are the most vulnerable point in any urban battlescape.  By pulling the Wehrmacht coordination out of a loop, by buttoning up in a city, made a great deal of tactical sense for an army that had been repeatedly outmaneuvered during the summer of 42.

From the Wehrmact point of view, yes, Stalingrad was a disaster, and there's no real way to argue around it. But you have to recall the German strategic position at the outbreak. Germany had, as mentioned above, a huge reliance on aviation and armor to make their war machine work. Tanks and planes require oil, and quite a bit of it, in order to function. There was some limited success in usage of sythenol to run things, but the German forces were plauged by fuel issues throughout the entire war. Moscow was a political target, but largely a symbolic one. Stalingrad, on the other hand, opened the door to the Caucases, and to the Caspian Sea, both of which had extensive petroleum drilling at the time of the war. Therefore, Stalingrad needs to be taken. It was General Paulus's stated opinion that after the bashing the Soviet armies took on the Don river bank, that they'd collapse out of the city with just a bit of pushing, a statement that certainly held true when storming cities like Minsk, Vitebsk, and Pskov, all of which had battered Soviet armies fall back into them, resist frantically, and get wiped out.

Obviously, he turned out to be wrong, but it was a reasonable assumption to make in late August. Perhaps he should have tried to bypass the city somehow, cut it off from reinforcement across the Volga, but that's a tricky thing to do. German armies were already quite overextended and there were a bunch of troops sitting in Stalingrad, and exposing your rear to them would be difficult. I have not done analysis, but I do not think the Germans had the manpower to circumvallate the city and continue onward.


As the above analysis shows, the STAVKA was hardly helpless in the face of German aggression, and it was more than bad weather and a bailout from the western allies that saved them. Danman has it exactly right. Operation Torch was a sideshow. El Alamein had around 116,000 combined German and Italian soldiers, about an eighth of what they committed to Stalingrad alone, let alone the other aspects of the front in the war in the east. The real American assault started with Operation Overlord, which began on June 6th, 1944. By that point, the Soviets had already

Won Stalingrad (750,000 German soldiers killed or wounded, 900 German aircraft lost)
Won Kursk  (Another 170,000 German soldiers killed or wounded, along with 720 tanks and assault guns and 681 aircraft)
Retaken Smolensk (another 200-250,000 German soldiers killed/wounded)
Re-crossed the Dniepr river (casualty estimates hard to get due to scattered front and it being more a mass of small battles than one big one. *lowest* German casualty estimates are around 400,000)

They were gearing up for Operation Bagration, which would throw the Germans out of Soviet soil for good.

In comparison, the damage the Western Allies inflicted was relatively light. Overlord-Cobra managed to kill/wound about 400,000 German soldiers, and that was the single largest concentration of German losses. Furthermore, German deployment and supply priorities put roughly 3 times as much men and material against the Soviets as against the Western Allies, (And the soviets still advanced far faster.)


As for the winter of 41/42. Yes. We all hear stories about how tit got so cold the tank fuel froze, and how the Germans didn't have winter uniforms expecting a quick victory.

Except.

German advances were virtually nil in the winter of 1939/40 against France, where the weather was far more mild.
42/43 already was seeing Soviet counterattacks.

German bombers routinely wouldn't fly in the rain, largely due to visibility issues. The biggest problem in the winter largely wasn't the freeze, it was the snow, keeping the planes, which the Wehrmacht extensively relied upon, on the ground. This would have occurred whether or not it got so cold. Furthermore, even when the snow melted, you had roughly six weeks in 42 where the entire country turned to mud. This further stalled advance. In the spring. 


Lastly, supposing that the Soviet union had actually fell? I, for one, do not see the western Allies getting into Europe. If the Soviet Union goes, then suddenly Germany has about 4 times as many soldiers to oppose landings, guard beaches, and counterattack at points of incursion. Furthermore, the annexation of Baku oil means that the fuel problems are largely gone. The German plan to react to an allied invasion of Northern France called for an armored reserve to throw the invaders back into the sea (since it would be hard to amphibiously assault with the sort of equipment that is required for anti-tank fighting). This never happened, largely because by the time June 44 rolled around, there wasn't enough fuel to keep an armored division or two some 60 miles away from the beaches (where they're out of close ground support range), drive them up to the allied points of incursion and start fighting.

Lastly, for the Western allies, this was not a war of survival, and for the U.S., not even a war in which they'd been directly attacked. While public support to smash Japan was high, the war fervor against Germany was far lower. Quite conceivably, America could have built an army that no amount of German preparation could have defeated, but it would have been hard, bitter fighting all the way, and whether or not the political will to endure such a struggle is a definitely open question.

In conclusion, neither STAVKA nor the Wehramacht were staffed by idiots. The battle of Stalingrad was not simply people charging at each other and getting mowed down by machine guns. The Eastern Front of WW2 held far greater concentrations of men, armor, planes, fuel, and casualties than the Western Front ever did. If anything, it's not the Soviet Union that helped the Western advance out, it's the Allied support (especially in Lend-Lease, some 30% of soviet self-propelled artillery was American made, and a lot of their fuel and supply trucks came from the States) that facilitated the Soviet victory.

Best wishes,
Corgatha Taldorthar.

 :bow

You have it utterly right. I admire you for having the patience to write the huge post clearing the situation up, as after seeing many with the "historical knowledge" akin to someone saying "Heh heh ,my grandma was not an ape" when presented with evolutionary theory.
I would only add that although in the beginning Stalingrad taking did make sense, it soon was shown to be a "bleeding resistor" for the german forces, especially since certain fat marshal failed to hold to his bold claims about the amount of supplies he will drop in, and the hardheadness of certain guy with chaplin mustache to fly one into stalin's face.
BTW the soviet film Fall of Berlin offers the funniest portrayal of Hitler ever done (and one of our best known humorists, Jan Werich plays Goring!)

One more thing  - towards the end of war, the western theatres saw german soldiers who needed to recover, and the "n00bs" much like Finland saw the crap de crap of the armed air forces of USSR

*applauds* That was well written. And based on fact and history; the problem with alternative reality historical adaptations is of course writing up a scenario that is plausible when compared to the reality; in some ways, I think science fiction and fantasy is easier to write compared to historical revision fiction because everyone knows the Soviets kicked Nazi ass. Eventually. ^^

@danman: No. There is no charity. Every act of kindness and decency in fact has an ulterior motive. This motive may be something as simple as performing charitable acts because of the sense of self-satisfaction and happiness one can feel when doing something nice for other people. We are, at heart, a selfish and self-serving species. Even the act of a mother sacrificing herself to save the life of her child is in fact an instinctive programmed response to ensure the continuation of the genetic lineage.

Or, at least that's one theory of thought. It's this philosophy which states a corporation exists merely to maximize profits and that the concept of the social responsibility of business is in fact flawed and should be abolished, even when this social responsibility can enhance profits through creating an image of the corporation being good for society; the profits earned through social responsibility methods is said to be less than that of a company thinking only of itself.

As for my own actual beliefs? I suspect the lack of vulgarity and personal attacks in the webcomic reviews I write is probably more indicative of my philosophical beliefs than my snarky comments about Mink and what happened to his mom. :tohell

Quote from: Corgatha Taldorthar on March 17, 2010, 10:09:46 PM
Words!

:erk
You... kind of lost me at the end of the second paragraph, there. Could you possibly summarise? Also, if you were to make it glib and in some way offensive, that would be a lot more my speed, thanks.

Edit: Actually, never mind. I will cheerfully concede this and any future point to you, as long you solemnly promise never to drop a wall of text like that on me again. I will put a note in my sig to that effect, if you want. :sweatdrop

Quote from: Tangent on March 17, 2010, 10:54:10 PM
*applauds* That was well written. And based on fact and history; the problem with alternative reality historical adaptations is of course writing up a scenario that is plausible when compared to the reality; in some ways, I think science fiction and fantasy is easier to write compared to historical revision fiction because everyone knows the Soviets kicked Nazi ass. Eventually. ^^

I see where you are getting at. Now, up there, a policeman wants to have a word with you!
Seriously -unlike him , you have not provided a single (i am not asking for sources proper even) bit of actual evidence beyond stating to have history minor - and given the differences between schools, might have about the same value as sgt. Fred Colon's "School of My Dad always said, College of It Stands to Reason, and postgradual at the university of what some bloke in the bar told me".

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@danman: No. There is no charity. Every act of kindness and decency in fact has an ulterior motive. This motive may be something as simple as performing charitable acts because of the sense of self-satisfaction and happiness one can feel when doing something nice for other people. We are, at heart, a selfish and self-serving species. Even the act of a mother sacrificing herself to save the life of her child is in fact an instinctive programmed response to ensure the continuation of the genetic lineage.

Or, at least that's one theory of thought. It's this philosophy which states a corporation exists merely to maximize profits and that the concept of the social responsibility of business is in fact flawed and should be abolished, even when this social responsibility can enhance profits through creating an image of the corporation being good for society; the profits earned through social responsibility methods is said to be less than that of a company thinking only of itself.

As for my own actual beliefs? I suspect the lack of vulgarity and personal attacks in the webcomic reviews I write is probably more indicative of my philosophical beliefs than my snarky comments about Mink and what happened to his mom. <picture snip>

I share the above view, however the conclusion is not that social responsibility of companies idea is flawed but that we need to force it upon them, as they will not do it by themselves, to achieve the greatest good for the society.
And true, there is no charity, nor there should be or should be needing to.


As Ayn Rand put it quite well, the whole of my point collapses to this:

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If a mother buys food for her hungry child rather than a hat for herself, it is not a sacrifice: she values the child higher than the hat; but it is a sacrifice to the kind of mother whose higher value is the hat, who would prefer her child to starve and feeds him only from a sense of duty.

*Walks in on the the WW2 debate and philosophical discussion on heroism and sacrifice.*
Whoa... I seem to be on the wrong forum... I'll debate philosophy tomorrow... Maybe...
*Slowly backs out of the topic...*

Quote from: Drayco84 on March 17, 2010, 11:59:46 PM
*Walks in on the the WW2 debate and philosophical discussion on heroism and sacrifice.*
Whoa... I seem to be on the wrong forum... I'll debate philosophy tomorrow... Maybe...
*Slowly backs out of the topic...*

Run! Save yourself! It's too late for us, but you can still have a life!

And on this note, this thread has more than long since expired a purpose to warrent it being part of the DMFA section.

If you wish to discuss world war or heroism, I suggest making a new thread in general.  This thread is heading to a new home.

But it will be lonely without all its friends...