The Clockwork Mansion

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/printedition/2008/07/22/paddling.html

I heard this one on the radio, coming into work this morning.  Apparantly, and it's not just Georgia that's doing this,  but some school districts across the country are bringing back the age-old method of paddling students that misbehave.  Why?  Because other methods, time-outs, detentions, and the like, just aren't working for some students.

Of course, there are restrictions.  There can be only a certain amount of strokes, and at least one other member of the faculty must be present to witness the paddling.  Plus the parents have to sign a waiver at the beginning of the year to either allow or not allow the school to hit their kid.

Personally, I find this to be a breath of fresh air.  Finally, someone figured it out that kids these days aren't respecting authority and the best course of action is to give them a reason to respect authority.  "If you don't listen, I'll make you listen... with my belt across your backside!"

Yes, I got whooped (several times) when I was a kid, by my parents.  I even got hit with a switch... a freakin' tree branch!  And let me tell you, I never repeated those mistakes.  Ever.  I got away with nothing.  The schools I went to didn't have corporal punishment, but they knew that my parents would bust my backside if I did wrong, and they had no problems reporting what I did to my folks.  And it made me a better person.  It made me respect my folks and my teachers.

I started to notice that younger kids weren't respecting authority when I was a junior in high school.  These little kids, and I mean little guys, who barely came up to my waist, were walking around acting like they're the baddest thing to walk the planet, and they kept getting busted for the same behaviour over and over again.  And I couldn't help but think that if their parents would just employ the belt, they'd behave better.  Cuz those were some kids who got a stern talking to or spent some time in the corner.  I think Jeff Foxworthy said it best.  "If your mom drops you off at school in the morning, you ain't no gangster."

There are two things that I fully support for schools: mandatory drug testing, and corporal punishment.  In fact, let's step it up a bit.  Public corporal punishment.  There's only one thing worse than getting paddled.  And that's getting paddled in front of the whole school.  I guarantee you, if you whup a kid in front of the entire student body, he or she will never do what they did again. 

And you know what?  I went through both of those.  They work.  My parents whipped me every time I did something wrong.  I got drug tested when they implemented it in my high school.  I came up clean.  But 3% of the rest of the student body didn't.  And those were most of the troublemakers, and some of the big sports guys too.  The second half of my junior year and my entire senior year were complete smooth sailing.  And because of all that, I've stayed away from violence, drugs, crime, and have got myself on a path to a great career.

That's what I think anyway.  What about the rest of you?

i think public humiliation should be one of our more used forms of punishment- especially if its a really stupid and petty crime that gets laughed at.

put up a stocks in the center of main street, and have violators of public nudity, public drunkenness, small theft, and vandalism will be left to be laughed at and possibly have fruit thrown at them or small children write on their face with a marker.\


in schools, well, i think it would be a good idea to make some of those kids walk around with a big sign saying what they did, with the exception that any 'cool' crime that would give them 'street cred' would not be done this way. 'cool' crimes i think should be punished by making people wear stupid hats, or pink pajamas, or whatever would make them embarrased in front of the rest of the school

at least with a paddling the offender knows that only they and the administration know it happened, things like this have to be for all to see.

Quote from: Brunhidden on July 25, 2008, 10:07:02 AM
at least with a paddling the offender knows that only they and the administration know it happened, things like this have to be for all to see.

Exactly, that's why I say do it in front of the entire school.  They'll never hear the end of it and never repeat what they did to deserve the paddling.

While I agree with the concept, I have to say I'm not sure that it would be much different then where we are now.  Everyone responds differently, even children.  Some children who respond to those things that 'just aren't working' will not respond to the corporal punishment.  My parents figured out that it with me it only served to make me want revenge.  It drove me to fight back.  The harder they hit me for discipline (and trust me it was discipline, my folks are good parents and had the best intentions) the more rage they fed into me and the more destructive I became.  I'm fortunate that they realized this early on.

I guess I'm just wary of this going from one extreme to another.  No physical punishment to all physical punishment.  It won't work.  Children are people too and will respond just as differently as you or I.  I know here in Canada there's been a move to give the teachers a lot more leeway (my Dad is actually a part of that movement and has been for as long as he's been a teacher, which is longer than I've been alive) but I think it's really a double edged sword.  I guess it will depend on the implementation.

In all though, I'm glad to see that they are open to the concept.  Something needs to be done to ensure a good future for children and if physical discipline is what a kid needs, then I'll be the one to hold the switch myself.  I guess it's kinda like a Dark Knight scenario for a lot of people in that regard.  Be the villain to ensure the fostering of good in people.  Be whatever it is they need you to be to grow, even if it's bad.

I'm with Brun, here.

Public humiliation for public crimes.

Sorry, guys. While I hate disobedient and unruly brats as much as the next person, I don't like the idea of corporal punishment. This is coming from someone who hates disorderly, rampaging children, mind you.

Granted, throughout my childhood, I had never been exposed to such treatment. My Mom wouldn't hurt a fly (anyone who's met her at AC can attest to this), and my Dad likes to make people think he can hurt a fly by vaporizing it through radiating sheer manliness, but deep, deep down, is really a big softie.

~Keaton the Black Jackal

I was, on rare occasions, caned by my parents.  That said, I was the firstborn, so by nature they were trying things to see what worked.  It was something my father regrets now, and they certainly didn't do it very much to my younger brother.

So where do I stand on this issue?  Well, I don't like caning.  I would not cane my children.  Smacking, however, I would not have a problem with, used in moderation (this seems to have been made illegal in the UK, which I believe is a mistake).
But I would draw the line at other people disciplining my children in this way.

I dunno...I'm kinda torn on this one. On the one hand, I've certainly seen kids who will probably be in detention until they're 40, and been called up in front of the principal more times than you can count on both hands, but keep misbehaving. For them, maybe something like this would work. However, and I can't think of any specific examples of this, but I do vaguely remember situations where it seemed like the school/teachers/whoever was handing out an awfully heavy-handed (metaphorically only, no spanking) punishment for something that seemed like a much more minor offense.

Also, just a thought about waivers. I have to say, I think this might be the sticking point. On the one hand, are going to be some kids who can get their parents to do (or not do) anything for them, and it wouldn't be fair if say Jhon and Joe did the same thing, but only one gets paddled because the other had immunity. The other would be on a broader scale, how many parents support this for their children? I mean, that's pretty much what you'd be asking them with individual waivers. But I've also seen a great idea go down due to parental opposition. School in Texas, decides that since duck-and-cover worked so bloody well ([/sarcasm]) in the last few school shootings, they were going to teach proactive defense. (e.g. Throw heavy things at, jump on your attacker, rather than hide & wait to be shot.) But guess who was against that plan. Yup. Gosh forbid that someone might get injured. Bah. But that school no longer teaches it. Back to the issue at hand, if most of the parents support it, that's fine. In any caucus, there'll probably be people who disagree, but if you can secure a majority, then you're good. But if you start to get into a situation wherein a teacher can only spank half the kind in their class, you've got a problem.

I was both punished by my parents with spankings, and for some of my grade school years I went to a school that would also offer this as a punishment. My parents signed the waiver, although it was never necessary for that to happen to me at school.

I am of the opinion that physical punishment is a necessary thing. It would be heartwrenching to do to my own child, but in some ways, pain is the better teacher - if you do this, then there will be tears as a consequence.
It is possible to explain the difference between a right and wrong action to someone, but the trick is to make them care.

I don't hold all wisdom, of course, but this has been the way I have been taught.

As far as this happening in schools, it's probably not something I'd trust someone else to do to my own child, if I had one.

Caning is awesome!  My brothers and I used to beat each other with sticks just for fun all the time!

Of course, there wasn't much else to do in the NJ Pine Barrens, 'cept fer gittin skwerrls fer supper.   :B

My dad's friend had the best idea ever for teaching.  Go into the class on the first day with a gun carrying two bullets.  Shoot one kid.  Tell the others that the first one who acts up gets the second bullet.   >:3

yeah, everyones got stories of how they were disciplined, although nowadays it usually has something to do with stickers or the taking away of special rewards that weren't deserved anyways. and of course 'time outs'..... thats just kinda pathetic



whenever i said something my parents or older siblings did not like (which constitutes almost anything) i usually got a backhand to the face, often close to knocking me flat. my sister was the exception, she instead just lifted me off the floor by my ear, so that i could only touch one toe to the ground for balance.

after that (also usually for talking in general, even if it was not even something they particularly disliked) i would be sent to a corner of the house near the front door where the hard floor was littered with gravel and told to kneel on the gravel for an hour or two, or until my parents had forgotten they had sent me there- in which case i had to gamble if they had only forgotten how long i was there and would send me back thinking it had not been long enough, or had forgotten i was being punished in the first place and it was safe to sneak to my room and hide.

they forgot about me alot, and to this day they still confuse me with my brother..... my brother who is 7 years older, about 50 pounds heavier, is blond with a crewcut when i have hair so dark its almost black and reaches the small of my back.... yeah, they paid a lot of attention to me didn't they?

spankings i only got when i was very small, and only for things i had intentionally done that cost money. i learned very quickly to be mostly obedient, ask for little, and endeavor to cost as little time, energy, or cash to the household. the need to be spanked vanished when i became afraid

some kids are asked if their parents had wanted a girl instead of a boy, or a boy instead of a girl. my parents wanted a mute, and often tried to enforce it.




couldn't they have 'grounded' me like other parents? i lived in the middle of a swamp, had no means of transportation, and nowhere to go to. they could have thought i was being punished by saying i could not go anywhere for a whole month, and i would have gotten away scott free being unable to have gone anywhere anyways.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that you have to hit kids to get them to pay attention. I was never, never hit while I was a kid. My childhood was fairly quiet, and I'm a responsible member of society.

Honestly, it disgusts me how many of you people seem to condone this behavior. Absolutely disgusts me. Hitting is not a good form of punishment. Ever.

Pain is a valid teaching method. The important thing is to not overuse it.

In Brun's case, I'd say it was overdone. In my case, we were belted for lying to our parents; the result was I, at least, learned to not get caught.

Note that this isn't what my parents wanted to teach me. The end result, however, is much the same; most times, lying only leads to more lying, and as it snowballs, you get caught in the end anyway.


Lest I be misunderstood, I thought I should at least elaborate a bit, at a time when I can, rather than leaving various people under the impression I'm endorsing random corporal punishment. On the other hand, waving your finger at a child for 15 years, saying "bad boy" and not actually doing anything more significant, and then as soon as he magically reaches the line, he ends up on the other side of the bars, looking out at death row. Tell me that makes sense?

There's got to be a better way than that; there has to be a better way than beating the child senseless. As in all things, moderation is the key. Where to draw the line, however, is a very very fraught conversation.


Suffice it to say, if my son plays up, I expect his teacher to slap him down verbally; I also expect them to let me know, so I can reinforce the point at home. Despite being perfectly willing to resort to pain if necessary, I don't think we've had to do anything of the sort in the last three years. I'd say longer, but I don't remember, and it's possible that I'm thinking of accidents, rather than deliberate training; having the child smack himself with a door, after you told him not to play with it, sort of thing.

I think llearch has stated what I mean more clearly than I have.

Lest our emotions get the better of us and this turns into a flame war here we should can this discussion.  It's clearly a sensitive topic for some and there's a lot of stuff that would be better left unsaid.  Let's just chill out.  Maybe lock the thread?  I'm not one for stamping out free speech but I don't want to see bad blood here.

Yes, I think llearch has summed up what I was trying to say.  Slapping a child for every minor infraction is not something I agree with.  As with Cog, it is not something I'd want to do either.  But I do believe it is necessary to back up threats, e.g. "If you ever do that again, you're getting smacked".  That sort of thing.  If done right, it should (hopefully) only be necessary to do this a few times, and in any case it's something you'd tail off as the child grows up.
Maybe Darkmoon is thinking of a 15-16-year old.  I'd agree with him there, but I'm thinking more in terms of 10 and under.

I'm certainly not saying to beat a kid for everything he/she does wrong.  Other methods of discipline are quite valid.  Personally, when my grades were down, my folks took all but the television and radio away from me.  When my grades went back up, I suddenly saw my game consoles again.  When it comes to destructive tendancies (self, or otherwise), then a spanking is called for.  In the end, it boils down to the parents and how responsible they are.  In my experience, the kids who are running around getting into fights and using foul language are the ones who really needed a belt across their backside.  But that's the problem right now.  Many parents aren't taking the responsibility to discipline their children.  I know that's not the case with many people on this forum, but I went to school with kids like that.  At the time, I couldn't understand why parents would let their kids get like that.

I stand behind my statement. Never necessary. I'm not saying you can't punish them, but no hitting isn't that hard to accomplish.

... it's funny now that I think about it, but even though I know my parents used to give spankings, I can't actually remember the last time I got one. It must have been before I was eight or so. My parents were never believers in hitting: if we broke the rules or did something bad, we lost privileges or electronics. You probably wouldn't be surprised at how effectively you can motivate a teenager if you threaten to confiscate their iPod if they don't clean their room (my parents had a rule: our roof, our rules. So yeah.) And back when they did spank, it was because of something really bad: broken windows from rough-housing was a grounding, if I recall. And there were a few problems I had that I'm not really comfortable talking about online, but I didn't get punished for those at all... the time I beat up my best friend in fifth grade was an exception (I almost got expelled for that, but even then all I did was get grounded: everyone knew why I had done it and everyone involved took steps to make sure it would never happen again). My parents basically figured out what really motivated us and used that. I guess I was kind of lucky.

hmm, I'm not sure where I stand on this...

On the one hand, I dreaded the stern talking to taht my dad would give me when I disapointed him.  But there's an important thing here, in that I respect the man.  If there is no respect, it's just a boring lecture.  I don't remember if I ever got the belt or was spanked, but it was a punishment I knew was there if I did misbehave.

I don't think that the problem is necessarily a lack of corporal punishment.  I think the problem is a combination of a lot of things, parents weak on dicipline, pandering to spoiled children, things like that, but a firm and definite punishment may well answer the problem.

Quote from: Darkmoon on July 25, 2008, 12:51:51 PM
I'm not saying you can't punish them, but no hitting isn't that hard to accomplish.

While I see where you're coming from Darkmoon, that's a generalization that I think that is part of the problem.  There is no one size fits all solution.  Unfortunately it's difficult to say what the solution is with any given person.  To say that something is or isn't the solution definitively potentially rules out what may very well be the solution.  Now I know that this is likely heading into circular arguement territory at which point we'll have to agree to disagree (hideously over used statement, I know) but I feel that an open mind to all possible solutions, no matter how vile is the only way to work towards one that is at least better than what we have now.  I think we've all seen that the situation we're looking at today isn't good and for alot of the children in this situation, the outlook doesn't look so good.  Does this mean that they're screwed? No.  However based on similar events in our own live this is normally a bad start and often leads to alot of sadness and misery for folks who walk down that path.

That said, it's their path to walk.  So now we get into the nasty philosophical realm of choice.  What right do we have at all to interfere?

Quote from: Reese Tora on July 25, 2008, 01:10:23 PM
I don't remember if I ever got the belt or was spanked, but it was a punishment I knew was there if I did misbehave.

This is how I saw it from my folks.  If I screwed up, then I would get yelled at, have something taken from me, or get whipped.  The third being the most effective deterrent, for me at least.  The problem is that there are kids out there right now who aren't seeing that.  They're misbehaving and getting a boring lecture.  If there's no fear of discipline then why should a kid not misbehave?

Pandering to the spoiled children is one of the biggest problems of all.  Every time the little retards cry and whine, they get rewarded.  Then as they grow they want more and more, and the parents never give punishments that they actually stick to for any misbehaviors, and then the kids end up shot dead in a drug deal gone bad one day.

Besides, I got beatings all the time!  And look how normal I turned out!  *says the vorarephilic furry who plans to exterminte the inferior human species and replace them with his cybernetic army of Charlek mutant clones*

As a teacher in a comprehensive school with 42% SEN (Special Educational Needs) I have never required corporal punishment to make a class behave.

The thought of striking an 11-year old makes my stomach churn. The thought that striking an 11-year old may be legal makes my stomach churn like a cement mixer. The thought that striking an 11-year old would be encouraged as a public event is just plain sickening.

Corporal punishment is grotesque and unnecessary. 

Now, I am not going to comment on what should be done at home, but for what should be done at school, I do like a compromise one-size-fits-all solution:
You have a system where for any particular bad thing you do, the punishments get worse every time you do it. The first time, you just might get a verbal warning, the second a harsh verbal warning and/or letter to parents and or detention, then detention and letter to parents, and finally yes, a beating might be called for. You also might want to add two beating stages, one private and one public. Perhaps after that you could give suspensions or bans.

Also, a good idea came up in another forum I visit: Always put the subject in detention for a while before administering any punishment. You want the anger to have warn off, otherwise any beatings would not do any good, just fueling the anger.

The idea here is that the people who are motivated by verbal warnings would stop doing it right off, and that would be that. The people who aren't motivated would, however, only be able to do the particular thing a certain number of times before getting physically whacked, which would hopefully solve the problem.

This is just what I feel is probably best, out of all the solutions offered so far. Obviously, the system that we have in place now, with no beating whatsoever isn't really working, at least in the cities around here.


-RobbieThe1st

Could always make em do what prisoners -used- to be doing, back before all they did was get a free gym to be in all day... brilliant idea, really.  :rolleyes


Aaaanyways, make em do mandatory community service in a private or public setting, depending on the crime. And I mean anywhere from a week to a month or so. *shrugs* Doesn't hit em, but doesn't make them want to do it again cause no one likes to have their free time taken up with work.

I only got spanked once or twice by my parents. That was when I was about six or seven. I very quickly learned I did not enjoy pain on my rear and that I should avoid that pain. So I acted like a good, quiet child. It's not the most pleasant thing, for the one punished or the one punishing, but pain is a very instinctual motivator. A person won't stick a finger into a flame after they've been burned. And a child won't misbehave after being spanked.

However, I don't think that schools should have the right to paddle at any infraction. And to that I have to say that I think Robbie's idea sounds best, build-up of punishments and such.

*Charles beats children and forces them to work in the coal mines!*   >:3

Although, one can indeed draw a powerful inverse correlation to the decline in corporal punishment and the increase of promiscuous sex, drug use, and school shootings.

Maybe the two data plots have no cause and effect correlation, but when has that ever stopped people from drawing a consensus as long as the data can be warped to fit what people want to believe? 

*makes headlines "Statistics Show Beating Your Children Daily Will Lower Drug Use and School Shootings!"*  Excellent...  *prepares to mass-market professional-grade bamboo canes for beatings and make a fortune on the suffering of children!*  >:3

I think this can be good and bad. It can be a very good thing if done properly, however I have no doubt that there will be a few cases as always of some psyhco in the classroom who takes it a tad too far. That or does it for pleasure.

I can think of 5 kids in my area that could have used some severe beatings however instead they got away scott clean of rape for being "minors."
In school I know of kids who went after teachers and beat the living tar out them and only got a slap on the wrist.

I say this is a VERY good thing overall with underlining problems. However, I would like to add that in light of allowing teachers to punish students the teachers should also be given the right to defend themselves from the students as well.

School violence is getting out of hand.

Sorry "Modern" and "Enlightened" methods of child rearing have delivered inferior citizens and employees in the USA.

Back to the methods that work.

Correct Zorro!!! Glad your on the same page!

Hey folks, here is another reason WHY we need to have corporal punishment in schools:
Parents are monumental failures at raising their own children. Most do not even raise their own children anymore, they leave the boob tube and games to raise their kids, and when it comes to teaching them civility, discipline, morality or ethics parents immediately back down and go hide somewhere like rats.

Parents are mostly to blame as the reason for needing such laws.

its liability- the parents expect the schools to do things that the schools expect the parents to do. and should the school do absolutely anything questionable the parents will blame them for all their kids problems despite being horrible parents of delinquent children.

nowadays your child is not allowed in school unless they are potty trained, can state their full address including street number, apartment number, city, county, state, and zip code. they also need to know their parents full names, phone numbers, and the proper procedure to call 911, which is more complex then you think when its a little kid


you are expecting a five year old to know all this- i was seven before i knew my parents first names and could get my phone number and address straight every time by about nine even before the age of each parent having two different phone numbers.

all of this is because the school does not want liability, and the parents will blame the school if something happens, thus someone somewhere has to glue three pages of personal information to the back of each child's head like a nutrition label in case they wander off somewhere

Yet the fact still remains parents are incompetent. I believe in order for anyone to have children they have to pass a government test on how to raise children, treatment of children pending circumstances, and also pass an IQ test. That alone would wipe out 90% of the people who have children, parents are just too dumb and ignorant anymore. That as well as being too fat and lazy to get their rears off the couch longer than to go to the bathroom or get another beer.

Here is a video to look up: The Idiocracy
Gives a future for what humanity may become like if this keeps up and people keep getting dumber, with comedy thrown in.

Quote from: Vekar on July 27, 2008, 05:37:49 PM
Yet the fact still remains parents are incompetent. I believe in order for anyone to have children they have to pass a government test on how to raise children, treatment of children pending circumstances, and also pass an IQ test. That alone would wipe out 90% of the people who have children, parents are just too dumb and ignorant anymore. That as well as being too fat and lazy to get their rears off the couch longer than to go to the bathroom or get another beer.

That is eerily almost the same as what I had had in mind :erk

Or, for the ultimate nanny government (which is where the country's headed), read "Harrison Bergeron".

Yep, gotta make everyone retarded so we'll all be equal and no one will feel bad.

Work everything to the lowest common denominator!  Equality by stupidity!  

(kill those who resist and then make everyone forget about them)

Sounds like modern socialism to me.   >:3

Darkmoon was never struck growing up, and is among the most successful and useful of his classmates in college.  He pays his taxes, he has a full time job, he doesn't break laws, and is a well adjusted member of society.  He has a loving and respectful relationship with his parents.

I, on the other hand was spanked and slapped by my parents.  The above is also true of me, with the exception of two.  I am not well adjusted.  I am horrified of upsetting someone, as I am literally frightened of the consequence.  As a result, I am passive aggressive, and unable to confront someone if they have done something to upset or hurt me.  Additionally, not only do I not have a loving and respectful relationship with my parents, I have none at all.  We do not speak- if we do run into each other at the grocery store (as we live in the same suburb) you would never know we were related, we speak to each other as aquaintances.  The way they chose to raise me, which is extremely similar to the way you all seem to want to raise your children, has left me with more baggage then I care to go into at this time.

So, in conclusion, the need to beat children as the only form of punishment acceptable several of you seem to exhibit is troubling, and I only hope you never have a position of authority over a child.  It's the beatings that my generation and the generations before I received that has contributed to this need to coddle children.  Blame previous parents and grandparents for being abusive to the point that we feel the need to be opposite.  That's the problem with society.  There are many other ways to punish a child.  Obviously you all aren't creative enough to come up with one that doesn't involve striking them.

"Spanking" and "slapping" are two very, very different things.

As practiced by my parents on me (hence my experience, etc etc) - with whom I still have a very good relationship, despite being on the other side of the world - they managed it very very carefully.

In hindsight, it was usually the parent that wasn't transgressed against that was doing the punishment; it was clearly explained to us, in words we understood, precisely what we were being punished for; the parent punishing was not in a state where they would be applying more than the bare minimum of required force; and, as paramount, it was considered a last resort. That means, all other avenues of corrective behaviour were followed first.


Lest it be taken as criticism, this is merely my experience. In my opinion, there is a place for corporal punishment. It is a carefully regulated place, ninety nine times out of a hundred (at the very very least) it shouldn't be required at all, and it should be extremely carefully thought out beforehand. Having said that, the child should know that there are limits, and what the penalties for crossing those lines are. If these lines are set up in advance, and are reasonably consistent across all parents and guardians, then the corporal punishment should never be implemented.


That's spanking. A carefully measured, precise response to children pushing their parents beyond breaking point. It happens; children need limits, and need those limits enforced, and parents are only human, and will break sometimes; particularly with more than one child, as the children will tag-team the parent...


Slapping, on the other hand, is off-limits. That's simple rage speaking; the "fight or flight" reaction. Again, this is my opinion, but that has no place in a home; I will admit to having slapped my child, once, when stretched to the breaking point; I apologised, immediately, and sat down with him and explained why I had snapped (extremely long day, and had been looking after him for ~10 hours straight with no breaks, we were both tired, and he was whining at me; no excuse, but that's why), and we hugged, and made up. It was wrong of me, and I'd expect him to do his best to avoid slapping anyone, just like I do my best to avoid slapping anyone. As I said above, though, I'm only human, and I make mistakes just like everyone else.


People are animals, just like monkeys. Monkey see, monkey do. Important to be aware of it, though, and deal with the results before they become a problem. The problem is, many of the children that are being pointed to as a problem do not have anyone in control of them; their parents have given up, or never learned the right skills in the first place (I know I didn't; I'm in awe of my wife, and learn all I can from her) and the children are left to make do.

Lord of the Flies. Nuff said.

Very well said, llearch.

Each parent that honestly cares about their children and disciplines them has their own methods, some absolute failures others effective.

Here is a book for you all to go look up and read: The Dumbing of America. It came out back in 2000 or so, not sure if they even print it anymore. None the less it went over how ciriculums have been dumbed down, it works like this:
(this should sound familiar since No Child Left Behind was based on this)
1: School X has Y grade level as the norm and Z as the minimum
2: Parent gets lawyer because their idiot child who only by the grace of god can wipe themselves, sues the school because their kid hardly made a 1%.
3: School rather than duke it out backs down.
4: Governor or some high up official in the education system agrees that the standards are "too high" despite 50% are well above the minimum.
5: School drops standard to the old minimum, the minimum gets reduced.
6: Parent sues school again because child again did not make the new minimums. Sues on basis of "discrimination."
7: School drops the standards AGAIN.
8: Child fails AGAIN, parent sues AGAIN.
9: School drops standards AGAIN.
10: Notice the trend?

The above is a few chapters long in the book and documents actual cases that errupted just like the above that lead to schools lower standards.

Not sure but George Carlin even picked up on this one at some point about dumbing down of america and hit the nail on the head.

Alondro: See if you can find a copy of that book, because what I said and you said are EXACTLY what they did and are doing right now.

Children get dumber, they lower the standards, and then on top of that allow parents to get by with leaving schools as the "day care center" for them so they do not have to put up with them. Schools are nothing more than a large government funded modern day care center.

I say parents have the "puppy dog syndrom" which is they love the child to death when they are little and take care of them but the second they get past X stage being different for each parent the parent looses interest just like a little kid does in a pup after it starts to grow up. Then they just shove it asside or shove it on someone else like they do with the education system.

I say each teacher needs to be issued:
1 cattleprod
1 whip
5 pairs handcuffs
1 sidearm (9mm) for inner city or an AK-47/M16
1 INTERCEPTOR vest for inner city
1 helmet
1 radio tuned in to the local police

Things are far too out of control anymore. I actually got to see a school once in North Carolina where parents abandoned their childrens discipline to such an extent that the school became a war zone for gangs. The local police had snipers, patrol cars and heavily armored SWAT on the roof and other cops wearing riot gear just to keep the situation under control EACH DAY! I know you will not believe that but I understand, you actually have to SEE that one to believe it. I NEVER set foot in that city again. In fact I left the state and moved  to New Mexico.

So, out of curiosity, how many people who've posted in this thread are educators?  I know rabid_fox was at one time, and I dealt extensively with children and the schools during my tenure at the library, but I'm interested in the rest of you.

And then, because this is important as well, how many are actually parents or deal with children on a three to four time a week basis?  I know Brun is public about his family, but how about the rest of you?

Worked as teachers aid, worked in the school library so on. My mother was and still is a teacher to this day starting in the 90's. As for children, why in whatever is holy and unholy would I want to bring a child into this nightmarish world? I could think of nothing more cruel.

One does not have to work in the education system to know it SUCKS and is a JOKE! All you have to do is look at the facts and statistics to realize how bad things are. Actually, just go stand in a school hallway for about a week and you will leave with a very downlooking view of the education system and 99.99% of the students in the schools.

Just because someone does or does not have children or first hand experience in an area does not mean they are not entitled to an opinion and it does not mean they are unwise in what they have said.

Teacher's aid/lecturer when the teacher was out. Can't say it applies too much to the thread, though, as it was in an advanced subject(AP Compsci, so if the students got there, they were at least vaguely motivated).
I'd say it really depends on the situation, and most notably the level of schooling(elementary vs. later grades). I definately believe in the idea expressed through the thread that you both make it clear to the child what the problem is(so as not to send mixed messages), WHY the problem is bad(amazing how many times people forget that part), and to clearly show the kid that the punishments will grow worse. I don't believe in ever starting a punishment tree off with physical issues except in extreme circumstances(if two students are fighting intensely, I won't hesitate to put one or both of the students into the ground to stop it quickly). Also notable is the inclusion of meeting with the parent(s) if the problem continues. At this stage is one part I'd disagree with buisness as usual, in the effect that I'd refuse to accept the problem as wholly my fault(apologetic attitudes are silly ways of conducting business if the teachers aren't to blame).
Anyway, mindspew done.

EDIT: Vekar brought a good point on teacher defense, so back in I go! In terms of schools where it's that bad, that's a level where the faculty needs to suck it up and ask for help. A situation that bad is not one a public school should be in(or even has the capacity to handle). If the school was required to stay open for reasons unknown, the level of teacher defense proposed has merit. When applied to less violent schools, I'd not go to that level of riot gear level, instead allowing teachers the safety items they would like with the understanding that using them outside of an emergency is not only strictly forbidden, but a very quick fireable offense. Aka, the teachers should be allowed to prepare for the unknown(school shooting, etc), but shouldn't need any of these for student discipline. If a teacher is in a position of bodily harm from a student in their class, the student should not be in that class. Whether that's sent off to a disciplinary school, or given counseling, depends on the child.

As for the standardized test setup, I'm interested in how the New Mexico tests work in that regard, because the Texas ones are amazingly easy. The 11th grade one(needed to pass high school) has such wonders as:
Verbal: This is the SAT verbal on Very Easy mode, and has the exact same stuff(including the new SAT writing)
Math: Algebra!(that stuff you learned freshman year). Some geometry, but there's a formula sheet to make it amazingly easy.
Social Studies: Basic facts and figures, and 20% of the questions are there to see if you can read a graph or map. Not joking, fully labeled graphs and maps, just find the answer on them and bubble it in.
Science: The only real test, this is Easy mode freshman biology, with IPC(aka remedial Physics and Chemistry) with formula chart.
This would be vaguely scary until you realize you have FIVE chances to pass the test. FIVE. If you can't pass this test, you don't really have any business passing high school.
Anyway, now mindspew is done.

Well, I'm not an educator, but my mom is, so I asked her what her take on this is.

She thinks that an occasional swat is not necessarily a bad thing as opposed to yelling at a kid all the time, but thinks that allowing it in schools is not because of a potential for abuse. (abuse of being allowed to administer spankings, that is, not abuse as in physical abuse)

I have a 3 year old niece (from my sister) who we have found out is autistic.  She stays with us at least four days out the entire week.  You can probably imagine all that we go through with her.  We are usually quite patient with her (moreso than my folks were with me and my sister), and she's not talking yet so we haven't yet gotten to the point where we can hold a conversation with her, so we have been very reluctant to spank her because we don't know if she fully understands what's going on.  But, like llearch mentioned, there's a limit to what granny, or paw-paw, or uncle can take, so she has gotten a swat across the backside a few times, accompanied with a firm "NO".  She doesn't like it, but there are some mischevious things that she's stopped doing altogether because of that.  And she's not acting afraid of us afterwards either.  She's generally very happy and active (endlessly so), much like a 3 year old should be.

In my experience though, my folks too were very careful about the whole spanking thing.  I was never slapped, though my sister and I did our fair share of slapping each other around, sibling rivalry and all that, which my parents took in stride.  But when I was going to get whipped, I would get a lecture about why it was going to happen, and in that way I understood the crime for which I was being punished, and I knew never to do that again.  We understood that my folks were in control when they were going to discipline us.  And they never took it further than that.  They even gave some of the teachers in my school permission to whip us should we misbehave.  Although the school never acted on that, it was deterrent enough.  Both my sister and I graduated with diplomas from the same grade school, and we both have high school diploma's.

From all that, I have a healthy relationship with my parents.  We ride motorcycles on the weekends when we can afford it.  I'm even helping them financially (I live with them and pay them rent, which turns out to be the cheapest rent in the area), and have been dubbed the family tech support.  I've started on the road to a successful IT career.  I pay my taxes.  I'm better on my taxes than my folks are.  I don't break laws, and I don't do any illegal drugs.  I barely even smoke, and only drink on special occasions.  Even my sister has become a productive member of society.  She's employed, is married, has a baby and is a homeowner.  True, she relies on us to help take care of my niece, but that's due to her and my brother-in-law's irregular work hours.  But my mother doesn't mind.  She loves having her grandchild around the house.

Frag: Currently teachers defending themselves is basically this:
1: You are not permitted to even TOUCH the student no matter what
2: You can not touch the student in defence
3: If you do your open to lawsuit from parents, student, school, government and you will either have your liscence, one revoked, two put on "probation" or three the possibility of conviction for something you did honorably and wind up in jail and your life destroyed.

I am amazed there has no been more school shoots than there has already been since the teachers are so helpless in what they do. Those schools that DO bring in police or security is NOT enough, they are lucky if they can keep track of 10% of the student population. Also the fact there are SO FEW cops it is insane, I believe someone said there is about 1 cop for every 5000 people. So forget government help, it is not comming.

I would do like I said and arm the teachers heavily and give them classes in basic combat, in other countries this is MANDATORY! Teachers are ISSUED an AK-47 or some form of assault rifle before they are permitted to teach. Not only to protect the students but to keep out the "crazies" so to speak.


As for punishment again:
I would say that parents who DO punish their children are split, we have a portion that spanks, beats or slaps them when it is justified, however we only hear about those who do it for fun and for kicks. Taking a wooden spoon or a switch after a kid who did something WRONG was acceptable at one time and society was for the better. Now it is demonized, if you touch your kid in any wrong way you are immedietly "evil" or someone who should have their children taken away from them. A cop even voiced this once (back in oh I believe 1998) about how kids would call the cops on their parents for spanking them after they tried to set fire to something in the house and have the parents arrested.

Lee, guess you must be one of the few who get along so well, for me it is more along the lines of declaring mortal combat when I see the "relatives" who I have denounced as relatives since I was 15 or so.

Anyway, due to how messed up the school system is and how bad it continues to get each year is why I have nothing to do with education anymore. Not worth the beating with the law books for defending yourself against a psyco kid who tried to take you out.

One last thing, punishment should be turned into a manual. Teachers should get a manual for what kind of punishments they can give on what levels of problems that are KNOWN so as to create a guideline and streamline the equality of punishment.

I'm quite aware of the silly apologetic nature of schools, and I dislike it just as much. The cop rate is a bit wierd, though again, I'm not in New Mexico. Our urban schools generally have 1 cop to every 250. Note that my ideas on how to work the issue are a bit biased, because I already am trained in martial arts and such situations.
As for the punishment guidelines idea, that won't help unless the school is willing to be firm with those punishments. Many public schools do run that kind of idea, but the punishments are either too light or not backed up by the faculty, so the end effect is moot.
Also, there comes a question, how would you go about training teachers in combat? Have you seen the average physique of a(non-coach) teacher? Of course, not speaking absolutely, but a a good amount of public school teachers are not what you'd call "fit" even if you were nicely drunk.

The cop remark is for the general public. Also, if you stop to think about incidents in schools 1:250 is a really bad situation for the cops.

Being firm with them is teaching them as part of the ciriculum for becoming a teacher, also get rid of those darn "teach for america" whelps who are worthless. 100% trained BEFORE teaching ONLY! Anyway, enforcing any rules what so ever has become moot because teachers also are afraid to back them up or simply do not care anymore and let everything slide. You start by actually sending in state officials who are paid to do the same thing except investigate X and Y school and observe as a teacher of other teachers. You then can anyone who does not follow the protocols. However, simply making it legal, teaching teachers the basics of punishments and then making it known to them they are not going to get canned for doing so should be enough. Otherwise you are dealing with teachers who are corrupt and do not care in the slightest and are only there because it was a "quick" job and pays despite the pay being very low.

Shooting ranges and basic hand to hand combat. Any fat man or woman can do that. Anyone. Even a man/woman in a wheelchair can use a gun and do some hand combat though it will have to be specialized for them since they are going to be fighting point blank unlike the rest of us who keep at arms reach. Have all teachers take a PE class in college to whip them into shape and then the year after they follow up with hand to hand combat and weapons and tactics training on a minor scale. This could be done easily by calling out one or two state police, local police or a SWAT member. It will not take long at all, the hand to hand will take hardly any time, if you want to go the way of the Army you can take 3 months up. Weapons pending on what weapons are to be used I would suggest they are all trained in AK-47, M16 and 9mm handgun use of their preferance. Make this a class that will take up once a week for a year or everyday of the week for 3 months and push more training.

Again all you need it some PE classes to get them going basic fitness, then follow up with hand to hand then weapons and tactics training. I am sure the police would be willing to sacrifice one officer to do this. Heck, you could probably call up your state militia and have them come in and do some training and gun use.

Options are endless on how to do it, it is a matter of willingness.

Lastly to your martial arts, what kind DID you learn? I spent my time learning non-dojo, non-orthodox fighting styles developed for street fights and all out "it really hit the fan this time" type situations. So I learned a bit of everything based on its effectiveness, real life situations and not on using it in a matted room.

I used to be an educator.  I'm done with those days after one of the little punks rammed a pair of scissors into my leg and I was unable to do anything about it because I would have been sued.

I was also raised by a man who is a principal of a k-12 school here in the Canada.

My experiences are exactly the same as llearch's.  I was spanked, I understood why.  My relationship with my parents is great.  I talk to them almost every day.  Why?  Even though it made me angry, it did correct the behavior.  Now, unfortunately it did have a side effect at the time:  it made me angry at them and I pent that up for a while.  This isn't the case for everyone.  Thankfully after a time I let go of my anger.  Maybe you can't, but I was able to.  Once I let go of my anger and focused on the intent of the action, I couldn't find any fault in it.  Any pain they caused me then pales in comparison to the pain I would have encountered if I hadn't learned those lessons.

It's easy to say that we're not creative enough to come up with a better solution and to take a few samples and say:  SEE!  Beating them doesn't work and is just the product of an unimaginative and violent mind that will beget a vicious cycle of violence.  However this whole thread all I've seen is revisions of ideas and conversation and proposals to regulate what is a very risky method.

Quote from: Damaris on July 27, 2008, 10:00:14 PM
And then, because this is important as well, how many are actually parents or deal with children on a three to four time a week basis?  I know Brun is public about his family, but how about the rest of you?

Do I have to answer that? ;-]

I deal with my 6yo child every morning, when he climbs into bed with us. Not so much after that during the week, because he usually goes to bed before I get back from work.

Weekends, though, is me and my wife and him. I usually get him Saturdays, with spells off when my wife tags in, and she takes Sundays, again with tag-teaming so neither of us is overwhelmed.

Plus he's a good kid. ;-]

Quote from: Damaris on July 27, 2008, 10:00:14 PM
So, out of curiosity, how many people who've posted in this thread are educators?  I know rabid_fox was at one time, and I dealt extensively with children and the schools during my tenure at the library, but I'm interested in the rest of you.

And then, because this is important as well, how many are actually parents or deal with children on a three to four time a week basis?  I know Brun is public about his family, but how about the rest of you?

My brother's a teacher and every day he complains about how bad the kids today are.  Especially the ones pinning teachers in the hallways and throwing desks around in class. 

There's at least one knife fight in the high school a week now.  When I went to the same high school we had one in two years, and that was the last year I was there.

It's either beatings or extermination.  I vouch for the latter option!  Works for my plans much better.   >:3

Quote from: Vekar on July 28, 2008, 12:15:04 AM
Lee, guess you must be one of the few who get along so well, for me it is more along the lines of declaring mortal combat when I see the "relatives" who I have denounced as relatives since I was 15 or so.

Oh believe me, there are relatives in my family that no one in the family talks to or about anymore, but not for the reasons related to this thread.

Back on topic, the major issue is not with the kids that are already well adjusted.  Good kids don't get spanked.  Simpler forms of discipline work well in those situations. 

It's the kids that aren't well adjusted that need to be disciplined.  And there's a very good reason for it.  If left unchecked, that bad behaviour can turn into a mental disorder.  Case in point, my uncle Buddy.  Buddy was never told no.  He was given free reign through his life.  He's a chronic liar, takes advantage of everyone he meets, been in and out of jail more times than I can count, has used more drugs than I knew existed, and was declared mentally unstable by a hospital's psychiatric ward.  I am not exaggerating here.  He is one of those people who vehemently believes that the world owes them everything and there's no two ways about it.  This all could have been avoided had my grandfather actually disciplined him earlier on.  Last we heard, he's either somewhere north of the lake, or somewhere in Florida, and the Feds are looking for him.

Vekar: Ever been in a wheelchair? You lack the leverage to do any real fighting, not to mention the inability to sidestep makes dodging tricky. As for my martial arts, I use a self taught style focusing on redirecting blows(not judo, which focuses on using their power against them, but rather forcing them to be open so I can use my power on them effectively.). Aka, while most aggressive martial arts attempt to make an opening, I make the opponent make their own opening. Generally, a specialized form to counter my small size and lack of ability to grapple.

Alondro: By the time you get there, that's way out of line. That's the part where you start talking to the kid's parents about the problem, and make it clear that they'll be shipped off to disciplinary schooling(which is definately not somewhere parents want their kids, as some of those schools end up on their permanent record). When a student shows that much disdain for a peaceful learning environment, it's about time to ship them off to one where the teachers are set up on a no-nonsense policy with cops in the room.

I'm with Damaris on this one. I can hardly believe you people are supporting this. Just because the parents are irresponsible and careless it doesn't make it right to physically punish the children. Why not try to help the children understand rather than inducing fear into them? And if it comes to punishment, there are less scarring and more productive ways, like detention and extra homework.

Of course, that won't solve the problem of having parents who neglect their children, but neither does corporal punishment. I don't know how often teachers talk to parents in your country, but it seems to me that it should be done a lot more often.

There are some cases in which the children also need professional help, and in those cases they should get it. But they're not nearly as many as people tend to believe. More often than not it's just that they're not getting a decent education at home.

Talking to the parents does nothing.

They always deny that anything their child does is wrong and threaten to sue if the child is given extended detentions or threatened with expulsion.  And in many cases in our area, the parents are involved with the kids drug-dealing and gang activities, because they were raised teh exact same way.

Meh, I'm sticking with the extermination solution.  It's the easy way out, fast and efficient, therefore it's the best way!   >:3

I'm going to go partly with Alondro on this.  Except for one difference.  Talking to irresponsible parents does nothing.  Those are the ones that get sue happy the moment someone says something bad about their child.  It's the responsible ones who will do everything they can to discipline their kids.  If spanking produces results, then go with it.  If not, move onto other things.

But in extreme cases, pyschological therapy would be a viable solution.  The trick is to find what method of discipline works.  And spanking is a form of discipline that has shown results.  I'm living proof of that.  Parents just have to be careful and not cross that ever so thin line.

*Sighs.* If only there was a way to send those people to jail...

I hate it whenever I hear that someone has done something awful but he's untouchable because he's a drug dealer.

Well sometimes bad parents get sent to jail for being abusive.  Unfortunately, you also get the ones who'll use fear to keep their kids from talking.  "Fell down the stairs" my left foot...

In response to the parental talk, the idea isn't to change how the parents are acting. Leveling accusations, even if they are quite true, gets nowhere. Rather, approach it from the perspective of the system. The student has done some action, wherein the school has little recourse but to give a punishment, with the public knowledge that harsher punishments await the student if the actions continue. From this, the weakest link in the process is the knowledge aspect, thus, the teacher meeting with the parents is not to change their ways, but to show them exactly what has happened, what will happen, etc. If these parents are suit-happy already, not communicating this to them at the proper time would dramatically raise the chances of a lawsuit being leveled against the school/teacher. Also, it's important for the teacher to know his/her options in the scenario. If the parent declares that the teacher is the source of the problem, the teacher must show that the classroom setting is perfectly fine to other students, and that the student in question is behaving in an extreme manner. If the parent declares that the punishment/possibility of alternative education is too much, the teacher should remind them that the actions of the student fall under the classification of battery, leaving the teacher legally open to return such violence if necessary, and that the recommended punishment is a much nicer, diplomatic method of alleviating the problem.

tl;dr Fraggy talks legalese on how to avoid lawsuits and leave the conversation as an informative gesture, not an attempt to change the parent's methods of child raising.

Though I'm not entirely sure I approve, I think there is a marked difference between kids who were exposed to corporal punishment and kids who weren't. I've compared families that did spank their kids (mine) to families that didn't (our across-the-street neighbors) and found differences.

My brothers and I were spanked as children, as was our father. Our mother never was, but she doesn't take well to disobedience, even if she's never hit us. Even so, Dad would only do this to us if we were REALLY being brats - throwing a major-league tantrum and stomping on our good clothes when we didn't want to dress up, or fighting and shouting when company was around. And to this day, even though none of us is ever spanked anymore, we only disobey within limits - never anything big. Maybe a fib or two about doing homework when we were watching Happy Tree Friends, or sneaking into each other's rooms really late at night to talk about the books we're staying up and reading.

Our across-the-street neighbors have two sons, the older one of whom is friends with my little brother. The older one is a decent kid - he does sometimes give in to mob rules if my brother's other friends are being jerks, though. The younger one, though, is a nightmare when he puts his mind to it. And the parents never do anything except scold them vocally. Now, in my family, this has come to be enough for us as well; when my dad does it, it's usually a threat he never has to carry out, and with my mom, it's either a long talking-to or what we like to call "The Irish Mother Guilt Trip." But all of us agree that "Matthew, don't do this" or "Patrick, don't say that" are far less effective than a swat on the wrist and a stern warning.

Still, I think there should be limits on this in school; it seems more like you should let the parents deal with the kid, or at most, give them advice. At a certain age, physical violence stops being okay to use on kids and becomes more traumatizing than ever. And it should never be used too much on little kids, of course - never enough to hurt them or scar them inwardly.

I know this sounds kind of wishy-washy, but I really can't think of any other way to put it. There's a limitation to everything, and it should always be observed.

Parents and teachers need a weapon of last resort. 

Spanking bans remove that weapon of last resort, and the kids learn this and use the ban AS A WEAPON against the parents and teachers.

Quote from: Ryudo Lee on July 28, 2008, 03:09:00 PM
Well sometimes bad parents get sent to jail for being abusive.  Unfortunately, you also get the ones who'll use fear to keep their kids from talking.  "Fell down the stairs" my left foot...

*Charles falls down the stairs alot...*  The stairs, uhm, have fangs and claws...  *phears the lioness*  :<

...Kids aren't generally idiots. If you tell a child that violence is the wrong way to solve problems, then carry on to spank him, you are telling him that violence is wrong... unless it's inconvenient. Or maybe that it's justified when you're mad enough. Not good messages to send!

But then, I was raised with the message, 'violence is wrong,' and was spanked on a few occasions, and I guess I turned out alright. I still can't shake the feeling that hitting children is innately wrong.

I'm lucky enough that I was raised somewhere where people aren't INSANE prone to violence, as in Alondro's example. At that point, it sounds more like a job for security / the police than for teachers, though.

Quote from: Ryudo Lee on July 25, 2008, 09:41:11 AMThere are two things that I fully support for schools: mandatory drug testing, and corporal punishment.  In fact, let's step it up a bit.  Public corporal punishment.  There's only one thing worse than getting paddled.  And that's getting paddled in front of the whole school.  I guarantee you, if you whup a kid in front of the entire student body, he or she will never do what they did again. 

I mostly agree with you, except for the public humiliation.

Paddling (essentially spanking) in a controlled environment seems efficient, but making it into public humiliation is something that really should only be reserved for severe offenses, if it were used at all.