The Clockwork Mansion

So.... It get more confusing as ever... but it seems Dan is smarter than he looks.

Notes:
Why did he borrow that book, if not to find out more about his mother? (I doubt he actually wants to learn said techniques)
Judging from his lack of reaction, he probably already know all this. (and from said book)
How did Edward manage to tame such a beast?
Relating back to Aniz... could it be possible that the "She" Aniz referred to be Destania, instead of Fa'Lina?

Dan has always been smarter than he let on. Keep in mind how long he lasted as an adventurer, and his fight against Dark Pegasus.

"It takes a smart fur to play dumb."

***

this also brings to mind the question : We know Alexsi was the third scariest thing Abel ever faced. We can be pretty sure that Destinia was either the first or the second...  How much I want to bet that Dan's father might have been the other? Would make humorous sense for the 3 scariest things Abel has faced to be the Ti'Fiona family.

I guess it wasnt smart to all hold it back Abel...then again..Ask a odvius question you get a very odvius answer!!

Somehow I doubt that we're getting the whole picture from Abel.  It may be true from his perspective, but I suspect that he might be being a little bit hyperbolic.  Partly because I don't think that Destania has anything as simple as a good/evil switch.  I might believe that she's not evil towards family, but that doesn't sound like what Abel's describing.

After all, I'm sure she's not as evil as Manservant Hecubus?

Quote from: Psaakyrn on August 27, 2007, 04:10:10 AM
How did Edward manage to tame such a beast?

I really don't know.  My first guess would be that she was keeping Edward as a pet and living as a Being for a laugh, but in #726 she seems genuinely concerned about him.

Still, she's 7000... maybe she just got bored with being evil?  :B

Abel's reaction to the fact that Dan is only mildly perturbed should be interesting to see.  I've always had a suspicion that Dan's goofiness is mostly just a front and it's starting to look that way.

Maybe it was that book which prompted the question?

Gotta give him this, that frostbite dig was one of the better yer moma digs I've ever seen. :)

Does the book cover taking candy from babies? :dface

I suspect there will always be suspicion about the true nature of an cubi in DMFA, after all you have one who didn't just imitate someone for 25 years, they were someone else for that long, having to 'kill' that person to become themselves again. Plus of course personalities are in flux, you live long enough and everything about could change, one bit at a time.

Dan's reaction does seem a little off, he freaks out when he finds out his friend is gay (and fancies him) but doesn't bat an eyelid when told his mother is everything he fought against as an adventurer (and perhaps fears becoming himself). Depends on his method of rationalising  I guess.

Quote from: MT Hazard on August 27, 2007, 05:00:10 AM
Dan's reaction does seem a little off, he freaks out when he finds out his friend is gay (and fancies him) but doesn't bat an eyelid when told his mother is everything he fought against as an adventurer (and perhaps fears becoming himself). Depends on his method of rationalising  I guess.

Firstly, he didn't freak when he found Jyrras was gay for him.  In fact, it was his idea that Merlitz was gay for him back in the Disasters arc.  What freaked Dan was finding out that Jyrras was gay for a 'Cubi.  Which makes sense since he's got the idea that all 'Cubi are basically evil to some degree.

To me his lack of reaction over his mother being everything he hates says that he must have guessed long ago.  "The only thing I ever inherited from my mom was her wings, and that doesn't make me a ['cubi]"  As I said once before, that line makes me think that he was fully aware his mother was a Creature generally held to be evil, and that he had hoped/deluded himself that he wasn't going to inherit her less desirable aspects.

He might also have hoped that she had changed, which could conceivably occur a'la Catastrophe Theory, where something suddenly changes state completely after a long period of slow, almost undetectable change.

Assuming she hasn't flipped polarity and become good-with-evil-tendencies, what is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

A couple of other unrelated points:

Saying this seems to have hurt Abel an order of magnitude or so more than it has hurt Dan.  Again, I wonder if he has read the book from SAIA (which I'm assuming is what Abel's referring to, and not a figure of speech) which is why Dan has suddenly come out with this question.

If Dee really is so cold, was she really friends with Aary?  On a slightly related note, Dee said in the 700 series that she had had high hopes for Abel.  I wonder if they fell out because he couldn't shed his compassion?

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 04:40:30 AM

Quote from: Psaakyrn on August 27, 2007, 04:10:10 AM
How did Edward manage to tame such a beast?

I really don't know.  My first guess would be that she was keeping Edward as a pet and living as a Being for a laugh, but in #726 she seems genuinely concerned about him.

Still, she's 7000... maybe she just got bored with being evil?  :B

well, evil for evil's sake can get boring after a while, perhaps she decided to have a vacation and be a little more "morally ambiguous"?

Quote
Abel's reaction to the fact that Dan is only mildly perturbed should be interesting to see.  I've always had a suspicion that Dan's goofiness is mostly just a front and it's starting to look that way.

Maybe it was that book which prompted the question?

well, Dan didn't get to be a good adventurer just by being 'goofy' i suspect that he has a dead serious side, lurking beneath the overall veneer of Dan's outward personality.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 05:55:44 AM
well, Dan didn't get to be a good adventurer just by being 'goofy' i suspect that he has a dead serious side, lurking beneath the overall veneer of Dan's outward personality.

Exactly.  We've even seen it come up a few times, yet it's surprising how many people think he's simply an idiot.

I wonder if Alexsi and Pyro are still watching?

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 06:03:00 AM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 05:55:44 AM
well, Dan didn't get to be a good adventurer just by being 'goofy' i suspect that he has a dead serious side, lurking beneath the overall veneer of Dan's outward personality.

Exactly.  We've even seen it come up a few times, yet it's surprising how many people think he's simply an idiot.

I wonder if Alexsi and Pyro are still watching?

he's prolly relaxed and aloof when he's not "on the clock" as it were, we all wear masks, Dan's adventuring professionalism is prolly gathering dust somewhere, so to speak.
I reckon that the whole 'cubi deal seems like one big Adventure to Dan, and that might cater to his nature, as well.

You know, I think I realized one of the things that's bugging me about Abel's description of Destania.  It's Aary's description of Destania.  In 294 (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_294.php), she looks positively beatific.  The closest that my teachers ever got to giving me a look like Dee did in panel 2 of that strip:

(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t102/superluser/alanford2.jpg)

Now, I had some really nice teachers, but as a general rule, I tend not to see teachers smiling a whole lot, even the really nice ones,  Especially the really nice ones.

This may be chalked up to Aary's warped view of life, but I think she'd tend to prefer remembering Destania as being vicious.  After all, I don't remember the teachers that I liked as being smiley.  In fact, the teachers that I liked were the meanest SOBs there were.  Because they made sure that you actually learned stuff from them.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMWhat freaked Dan was finding out that Jyrras was gay for a 'Cubi.  Which makes sense since he's got the idea that all 'Cubi are basically evil to some degree.

I think it's more that dealing with Jyrras would be high stakes, because he's a good friend and can't allow the friendship to end badly.  And thinking that he turned Jyrras gay.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMAgain, I wonder if he has read the book from SAIA (which I'm assuming is what Abel's referring to, and not a figure of speech)

Well, he did borrow a book from the library (I assumed you remembered it, but there may be others with hazier memories (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_579.php)).  Interestingly, Aary seemed repulsed when she returned it (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_581.php).

Oh, also: Psaakyrn missed a golden opportunity to make a reference to Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.  Maybe Reaper Rapist Sadist...Scribe?

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 06:31:38 AM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMWhat freaked Dan was finding out that Jyrras was gay for a 'Cubi.  Which makes sense since he's got the idea that all 'Cubi are basically evil to some degree.

I think it's more that dealing with Jyrras would be high stakes, because he's a good friend and can't allow the friendship to end badly.  And thinking that he turned Jyrras gay.

Perhaps, but he didn't actually lose it until Jyrras said he fancied Abel, and the reasons he gave were explicitly anti-'Cubi.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 07:07:58 AM

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 06:31:38 AM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMWhat freaked Dan was finding out that Jyrras was gay for a 'Cubi.  Which makes sense since he's got the idea that all 'Cubi are basically evil to some degree.

I think it's more that dealing with Jyrras would be high stakes, because he's a good friend and can't allow the friendship to end badly.  And thinking that he turned Jyrras gay.

Perhaps, but he didn't actually lose it until Jyrras said he fancied Abel, and the reasons he gave were explicitly anti-'Cubi.

lesse... Dan's known Jyrras for how long? They've done stupid stuff... how many times?  Who wants to bet that Jy Jy and Dan have both wound up completely pantless after some of their stunts?

Yeah, high stakes is a good term.

Behold, it's Amber, crusher of fandom theories!

At the same time, we finally know what book Dan got from the library. The only remaining question is who taught Destania all that stuff at SAIA... she probably got there just a few centuries or so after it was founded, but I figure she started as a student... (Yeah, I know, it's a minor question, and I don't really expect an answer, but it's a valid question when you're dumb enough to set your fic in that era :dface)

Quote from: Sid on August 27, 2007, 07:54:06 AM
The only remaining question is who taught Destania all that stuff at SAIA... she probably got there just a few centuries or so after it was founded, but I figure she started as a student...

As I understand it she was about 26 when SAIA was founded, which would have put her among the very first generation of students.

**EDIT**
This is assuming the 7000 figure is correct for SAIA.  We don't know, it could well have been rounded down.  I'm not even sure what the primary source for that was now.

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 06:31:38 AM
You know, I think I realized one of the things that's bugging me about Abel's description of Destania.  It's Aary's description of Destania.

A good point — we should remember this is one 'Cubi being described by another 'Cubi known to be "just like the monsters in all those stories". Aary could have meant Destania was "a creature of beauty (when in a berserk rage) and grace (when dismembering adventurers)", and other 'Cubi would have understood the unspoken parts of her description.

Oh, I do so hope that last comment of Dan's was a dig at the forum's mad conspiracists.

I would think an adventurer and monster slayer would be happy that he had a convenient source of information on how to kill things.

Meh. Every student gets one or two teachers that fit Abel's description.  :mowtongue

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 07:58:46 AM
As I understand it she was about 26 when SAIA was founded, which would have put her among the very first generation of students.

**EDIT**
This is assuming the 7000 figure is correct for SAIA.  We don't know, it could well have been rounded down.  I'm not even sure what the primary source for that was now.

Then again, what she's teaching is part of her clan's forte, so she could've been the first generation teacher as well.

Quote from: Illusionist on August 27, 2007, 08:27:01 AM
I would think an adventurer and monster slayer would be happy that he had a convenient source of information on how to kill things.

Kill perhaps, but that book's not about killing. At least, not killing fast and mercifully. You're better off with the "know your foe to counteract them" theory. But I'd think that book would go into far more detail than any adventurer would need..

What, I wonder, does Dan think Abel owes him for?

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 07:58:46 AM

Quote from: Sid on August 27, 2007, 07:54:06 AM
The only remaining question is who taught Destania all that stuff at SAIA... she probably got there just a few centuries or so after it was founded, but I figure she started as a student...

As I understand it she was about 26 when SAIA was founded, which would have put her among the very first generation of students.

**EDIT**
This is assuming the 7000 figure is correct for SAIA.  We don't know, it could well have been rounded down.  I'm not even sure what the primary source for that was now.

Yeah, that last part is the "problem". Both Fa'Lina's age and the founding date of SAIA are rough figures, so I guess there's a +/- 100 years or so margin of error. Still, she would've been in the first generation of students (keeping in mind how Cubi tend to measure things like generations and age).

 Know what I liked about it? Well, everything, really, but the ultra-special cream-filling was the tail tremble.

On dialup, things load sloooow, so I saw the upper half of the comic for a good thirty seconds before I could read all of it. And Abel's tail spoke volumes.

My cats do that in real life when upset; I had one a few years back who would do the tailtip shake if he saw a spider. Kudos to Amber for covering even the minor details so perfectly!

Quotethis also brings to mind the question : We know Alexsi was the third scariest thing Abel ever faced. We can be pretty sure that Destinia was either the first or the second...  How much I want to bet that Dan's father might have been the other? Would make humorous sense for the 3 scariest things Abel has faced to be the Ti'Fiona family.

The librarian has to figure in there somewhere.

Well. This is interesting news. Another viewpoint on Destania. I'm honestly at a loss as to what to make of this woman.

*Charline grrrs angrily*  Destania is NOT more evil than me!  *broods and grumbles*  I'll show her, I'll show them all!  I'll be so savage and cruel that beings will fear to even mention my name for eons! 

*Charles chuckles*  Hee, so you'll be called "You-Know-Who-She- D:<Is".   :giggle

*Charline attacks!*  NO HARRY POTTER JOKES!!!!   D:<

*Charles comments before he's once again sliced into bacon bits* This makes the reason Abel is interested in the Ti'Fiona line even more interesting!  Yet Abel doesn't seem to know about the dragon connection, yet he still hates dragons for some unknown reason...  Wow, this plot is really convoluted.   :3

*Charline ceases her assault and ponders*  Ooo... you're right!  This requires serious analysis!  I need to go make flow charts!   :boogie

Who is defining this evil, Evil is a pretty vague and broad subject.

Quote from: Wanderer on August 27, 2007, 10:18:08 AM

Quotethis also brings to mind the question : We know Alexsi was the third scariest thing Abel ever faced. We can be pretty sure that Destinia was either the first or the second...  How much I want to bet that Dan's father might have been the other? Would make humorous sense for the 3 scariest things Abel has faced to be the Ti'Fiona family.

The librarian has to figure in there somewhere.

Well. This is interesting news. Another viewpoint on Destania. I'm honestly at a loss as to what to make of this woman.

Remember that old saying "Thos who can Do, Those who can not, Teach"

Perhaps Destania knows how to do all those things she wrote about, and taught to other cubi, she just couldn't bring herself to do it.

Also People put on an acts.. Perhaps shes not really as bad as Abel makes her out to be, he just took her at face value, and that was the "Mask" She was wearing for so long,  Aary perhaps saw through the mask.. partially.. to get a more accurate (( But no not less gruesome )) Picture of Destainia...


Side question, that I think has been answered, But if two cudi from diffrent clan's have a baby.. What clan will the infant belong to?

I have a feeling that some of the drill instructors at Paris Island (United States Marine Corps site for basic training) are nice fellows after hours.  But I wonder if the people they're training might have similar opinions during the training period.

Maybe the reason that Abel is interested in Dan is that he wants to see how somebody could have Destania for a mother and still turn out decent.  Perhaps that could be another explanation for his reaction to the tests that Dan was exposed to (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_527.php).

I'm still curious about the nature of the vested interest (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_713.php) that Destania had in Abel.

*Charline smirks, looking up from her piles of flow charts*  A cubi teacher often has to teach by example.  You know how Being teachers usually do a sample problem in math on the blackboard to show the students how it's done?  Same thing with cubi!  Don't forget Kitty's classroom with the bloody beaters.   >:3

Heh, saw that one coming.   :B

K enough of that. Invested interest....yeah she probably had invested interest in Abel because his life was pretty much ruined by Aniz, and since Aniz did make a reference to Fa'lina a few strips earlier in Abel's arc, it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Aniz was also taught by Destania.

You could just imagine their first encounter. Meeting the one who taught the murderer everything he knew. You can't tell me Abel would ever forgive Destania for that, for taking away his old life. I bet somewhere inside his head he thinks it might have ended differently had Des never existed. What's more though Abel had to learn under her tutelage. Can you really think of a bigger slap in the face then that? Of course she had invested interest in him, perhaps she was trying to break him, or perhaps seeing him finally sparked Destania's desire for redemption, through her son Dan. In Abel's eyes though I think he'll always see her as pure evil.

Edit:I think this may also explain why Abel owe's Edward for something even though he never met him. Since Edward married Destania, she never went back to SAIA, where Abel was. Just a thought.  :3

Quote from: Naldru on August 27, 2007, 11:04:39 AMI'm still curious about the nature of the vested interest (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_713.php) that Destania had in Abel.

Yeah, I also thought about this one.
I have some difficulty bringing that strip together with today's.
Well, at least if Abel isn't exaggerating.
Besides: I had already forgotten how hot Destania looks with glasses!  :E

Quote from: rabid_fox on August 27, 2007, 08:19:55 AM
Oh, I do so hope that last comment of Dan's was a dig at the forum's mad conspiracists.

No doubt it was. However, note that what Abel says and what is true are two entirely different things. For all we know, he might have an unrequited love of sorts of Destania, which was spurned early and caused him to develop that view of her as a cold and callous wench as a sort of excuse or aid to get over her.

Also, if you ask me, Destania is simply evil. How did she manage to get along with Edward? The answer is simple; all people need some love, even the terrible and despicable. Ask me. I know all about it. Also in support of this we have the fact that Destania obviously hasn't changed. When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AM
Saying this seems to have hurt Abel an order of magnitude or so more than it has hurt Dan.  Again, I wonder if he has read the book from SAIA (which I'm assuming is what Abel's referring to, and not a figure of speech) which is why Dan has suddenly come out with this question.

If Dee really is so cold, was she really friends with Aary?  On a slightly related note, Dee said in the 700 series that she had had high hopes for Abel.  I wonder if they fell out because he couldn't shed his compassion?

I think Abel may be reacting from personal experience. From what we've seen in Abel's Story, he has every reason to hate evil 'cubi. So, when he meets Destania and she's teaching classes in evil, he probably associates that with his own experiences. And assumes she's just as awful as the ones he's run into before.

It's possible she is. But, from what we've seen, she does care for some people. It may be that she teaches classes in evil, while not fully embracing evil herself. Which raises even more questions...

Quote from: Stygian on August 27, 2007, 12:22:37 PM

Quote from: rabid_fox on August 27, 2007, 08:19:55 AM
Oh, I do so hope that last comment of Dan's was a dig at the forum's mad conspiracists.

No doubt it was. However, note that what Abel says and what is true are two entirely different things. For all we know, he might have an unrequited love of sorts of Destania, which was spurned early and caused him to develop that view of her as a cold and callous wench as a sort of excuse or aid to get over her.

Also, if you ask me, Destania is simply evil. How did she manage to get along with Edward? The answer is simple; all people need some love, even the terrible and despicable. Ask me. I know all about it. Also in support of this we have the fact that Destania obviously hasn't changed. When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

Thats dangerious thought there...Aw well, Lesson learned and all will lead Dan to ask more question. Its bluntly true even the only male of his clain be so stupid for the intake on part of the truth. >:3

Abel go boom.

I find myself feeling like I was just thwacked in the head with a sack of carrots - surprised in a somewhat negative way, but kind of exhilarated.

The fact that Dan took this in stride bothers me in ways I can't explain. But I'm not too surprised about Destania, seeing as Cyra-clan has a pain affinity. (Thank you, Dr. Ink.)

Quote from: Stygian on August 27, 2007, 12:22:37 PM

Also, if you ask me, Destania is simply evil. How did she manage to get along with Edward? The answer is simple; all people need some love, even the terrible and despicable. Ask me. I know all about it. Also in support of this we have the fact that Destania obviously hasn't changed. When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

True, true. But that is still an endeavor of love, n'est-ce pas? It may be twisted with her love for destruction and pain, but there is love in there. Somewhere. I think what happened is that after marrying Edward and having Dan, she tried to settle down to a normal life, but just couldn't, Cubi behavior being so ingrained in her. Edward's getting kidnapped is the perfect chance to have a little fun again.

*Looks at the last discussion thread* Talk of the devil.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMwhat is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

I don't get what you're saying here.  "Sense of evil"?

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMIf Dee really is so cold, was she really friends with Aary?

Sure, why not?  Aaryanna's got a soft spot for Merlitz, but beyond that...

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 06:31:38 AMIn 294 (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_294.php), she looks positively beatific...

This may be chalked up to Aary's warped view of life, but I think she'd tend to prefer remembering Destania as being vicious.  After all, I don't remember the teachers that I liked as being smiley.  In fact, the teachers that I liked were the meanest SOBs there were.  Because they made sure that you actually learned stuff from them.

Different kind of teacher.  I've known mean teachers who didn't really care what you learned, nice ones who made a point of teaching, etc.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on August 27, 2007, 10:41:28 AMWho is defining this evil, Evil is a pretty vague and broad subject.

Whoever thinks rape, torture and wanton murder are evil.  That's pretty much evil at its least vague.

Quote from: Kesh on August 27, 2007, 12:46:35 PMIt may be that she teaches classes in evil, while not fully embracing evil herself.

Unless someone forced her to, somehow - not that I'd count that out, there's not much that you can in a story like this - I doubt it.

i think the phrase "evil" is pretty vague, and a bit too "absolute" to describe anything, too "black and white", as it were. there's shades of grey between those two points, folks. i reckon most 'cubi lurk in varying areas in that scale.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:01:32 PM
i think the phrase "evil" is pretty vague, and a bit too "absolute" to describe anything, too "black and white", as it were. there's shades of grey between those two points, folks. i reckon most 'cubi lurk in varying areas in that scale.

I repeat: Rape, torture, wanton murder.  If that's a shade of grey, and I highly doubt it, it's the darkest one there is.

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 12:57:09 PM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMwhat is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

I don't get what you're saying here.  "Sense of evil"?

Dan grew up to be a virtuous little Being who set off to right wrongs and battle against evil.
She could quite easily have corrupted him into something more like what Abel's describing, since he looks like he was about 3 when Edward left.

However, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.  Dan and Abel pretty much saved her ass with the interview and she hasn't showed the slightest hint of gratitude so far.

QuoteSure, why not?  Aaryanna's got a soft spot for Merlitz, but beyond that...

Yeah, but with 7000 years of practice at manipulation and acting, it's going to be very hard to tell if it's real.

Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?
It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PM

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 12:57:09 PM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:32:41 AMwhat is curious is that she hasn't instilled Dan with a sense of evil, but she has done a pretty decent job on Alexsi, IMHO (who didn't even have the heart to tell Dan that his mother was still alive by the looks).

I don't get what you're saying here.  "Sense of evil"?

Dan grew up to be a virtuous little Being who set off to right wrongs and battle against evil.
She could quite easily have corrupted him into something more like what Abel's describing, since he looks like he was about 3 when Edward left.

However, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.  Dan and Abel pretty much saved her ass with the interview and she hasn't showed the slightest hint of gratitude so far.

QuoteSure, why not?  Aaryanna's got a soft spot for Merlitz, but beyond that...

Yeah, but with 7000 years of practice at manipulation and acting, it's going to be very hard to tell if it's real.

Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?
It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

And now class I will teach how to get the nutrints out of a persons skull without killing them. >:]

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 01:05:58 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:01:32 PM
i think the phrase "evil" is pretty vague, and a bit too "absolute" to describe anything, too "black and white", as it were. there's shades of grey between those two points, folks. i reckon most 'cubi lurk in varying areas in that scale.

I repeat: Rape, torture, wanton murder.  If that's a shade of grey, and I highly doubt it, it's the darkest one there is.

well she's not a saint for sure, but other than the rape part, the same can be said about General Patton. >:3

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PMHowever, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.

I hadn't noticed.  All the violence I can recall was provoked.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PMIt made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

Wow.  A theory I can actually get behind.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:28:58 PMwell she's not a saint for sure, but other than the rape part, the same can be said about General Patton. >:3

Uh... wait, are you equating "killing random people" with war?

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 01:32:18 PM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PMHowever, Alexsi... I can think of about two strips where Alexsi actually behaves in a sympathetic manner.  Usually she's violent and uncaring.

I hadn't noticed.  All the violence I can recall was provoked.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PMIt made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

Wow.  A theory I can actually get behind.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:28:58 PMwell she's not a saint for sure, but other than the rape part, the same can be said about General Patton. >:3

Uh... wait, are you equating "killing random people" with war?

it's all very subjective, is what i'm saying.
it screams "evil" at us, but to other 'cubi, it might be something quite different, y'see.
We define her actions by our own moralities, forgetting that as a Succubus, Destania could quite possibly operate under a very different set of moralities, which condones her actions.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:42:32 PMit's all very subjective, is what i'm saying.
it screams "evil" at us, but to other 'cubi, it might be something quite different, y'see.
We define her actions by our own moralities, forgetting that as a Succubus, Destania could quite possibly operate under a very different set of moralities, which condones her actions.

Well, if we're going to go by that logic (Abel certainly doesn't seem to), shades of grey don't even exist.

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 01:55:28 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:42:32 PMit's all very subjective, is what i'm saying.
it screams "evil" at us, but to other 'cubi, it might be something quite different, y'see.
We define her actions by our own moralities, forgetting that as a Succubus, Destania could quite possibly operate under a very different set of moralities, which condones her actions.

Well, if we're going to go by that logic (Abel certainly doesn't seem to), shades of grey don't even exist.

and neither do absolutes, therin lies my point.  :)

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:58:51 PMand neither do absolutes, therin lies my point.  :)

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 02:04:54 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:58:51 PMand neither do absolutes, therin lies my point.  :)

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

while i'm at it, Abel's description of Dee may not be entirely accurate, he's been known to overreact in the past, don't forget. and he was a student of hers, i mean, we've all had at least one teacher that we thought was pure evil incarnate or something.   :P
So she wrote the book on evil, she can't have been that evil, though.
Something must've changed in her to soften her harsh edges to the degree they have.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 02:14:59 PM

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 02:04:54 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:58:51 PMand neither do absolutes, therin lies my point.  :)

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

So that's a yes?

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 02:17:32 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 02:14:59 PM

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 02:04:54 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:58:51 PMand neither do absolutes, therin lies my point.  :)

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

So that's a yes?

what are you? the gestapo?  i'm thinking that i need to stop this right here, since it's eating the thread alive with our banter.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 02:26:24 PM

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 02:17:32 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 02:14:59 PM

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 02:04:54 PM

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 01:58:51 PMand neither do absolutes, therin lies my point.  :)

Your point was "there's shades of grey between those two points".  Now you're saying there are neither shades of grey nor points?

i'm saying that while we think Dee's evil, her behavior would be among 'cubi norms, and thus isn't considered evil by their own standards. Saints and Sinners, Caswin old bean, one from one perspective, the other from the other perspective.

So that's a yes?

what are you? the gestapo?

No.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 27, 2007, 02:26:24 PMi'm thinking that i need to stop this right here, since it's eating the thread alive with our banter.

I've seen worse.  Yes, there are no shades of grey to begin with?

I'm surprised Drip hasn't been mentioned yet, as what Abel just said in the comic resembles what the general board populice says about Drip quite closely, just not in as much detail.

Dee vs. Drip: who's more evil?

Drip. Hands down.

@Amber's rant:
Funny, that's the same way I feel about film stuff. It's really hard to get me to watch anything, unless it's something I've already decided I'll like, which isn't much. Otherwise, all my watching is old Star Trek and Doctor Who episodes. Which I watch way too much of, because I discovered them relatively recently. For some reason, I don't get the same negative vibe off them. (Unless it's a TNG episode with Troi's mother in it. I hate her.)

Quote from: SpottedKitty on August 27, 2007, 08:00:24 AMA good point — we should remember this is one 'Cubi being described by another 'Cubi known to be "just like the monsters in all those stories". Aary could have meant Destania was "a creature of beauty (when in a berserk rage) and grace (when dismembering adventurers)", and other 'Cubi would have understood the unspoken parts of her description.

While this is possible, think back on your teachers.  Do you remember any of them like Aary remembered Destania?  I remember friendly teachers, but my memory of them never changed to making them that friendly.  And I remember liking teachers, but a lot of the teachers that I remember were pretty mean, and I never had occasion to remember them as friendlier than they were.

It is possible that we're seeing Dan/Mab/Merlitz's mental image of what Aary's saying, but I'm not convinced of that.

(And Caswin, I do remember friendly teachers who taught things well.  It's just that most teachers that taught things well were the ones that everybody else would say, ``Ugh.  She's an ogre.''  Sometimes, they were wrong.  But sometimes, the teacher was a real jerk, and you learned because they cared enough to be a jerk.  I also remember one or two total jerks that were bad at teaching.)

Quote from: Aurawyn on August 27, 2007, 10:45:43 AMAlso People put on an acts.. Perhaps shes not really as bad as Abel makes her out to be, he just took her at face value, and that was the "Mask" She was wearing for so long,  Aary perhaps saw through the mask.. partially.. to get a more accurate (( But no not less gruesome )) Picture of Destainia...

This is my theory, right now.  If you want to keep a job as professor of Pain and Terror, you have to teach pain and terror.  And effectively.  I'm imagining Destania played by Donald Sutherland saying, "Don't write this down, but I find pain and terror probably as despicable as you find pain and terror."

Quote from: Alondro on August 27, 2007, 10:36:19 AMYet Abel doesn't seem to know about the dragon connection, yet he still hates dragons for some unknown reason...

What?  Yes, he does.  In 685 (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_685.php), Abel knows that Dan and dragons don't mix.  He also knows that Aary knows this, and that Aary and dragons could mix just fine.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PMSomething that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?

If you're not planning to come back, then you should probably retire.  It doesn't mean that you hate what you did, but simply that you may have found something better.

Quote from: Raist on August 27, 2007, 02:47:27 PM
I'm surprised Drip hasn't been mentioned yet, as what Abel just said in the comic resembles what the general board populice says about Drip quite closely, just not in as much detail.

Dee vs. Drip: who's more evil?

Because there apparently are no other rapists or murderers in the history of the WORLD.

Every time someone makes a Jack reference in a  DMFA thread, I take a shot.
I have alcohol poisoning. Thanks.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 01:21:58 PM
Something that has occurred to me is the bit about Aary taking over from Dee when she retires.  This raises the question, why would she retire at all?
It made me wonder whether she was starting to realise that what she was doing was not very nice.  It might explain how Edward managed to talk her out of wiping him, if she had already been having doubts previously.

It may be that when Edward was kidnapped by dragons, Destainia relapsed back to her old ways.

Quote from: Zina on August 27, 2007, 04:06:14 PM

Every time someone makes a Jack reference in a  DMFA thread, I take a shot.
I have alcohol poisoning. Thanks.

You're welcome, but I can't be responsible for more than five of those.

somehow I think everyone is missing an important aspect to what Able just said and how he said it.  Dan was wondering what kind of individual Able is and judging what he just said not to mention how he said it only proves one thing, able is a nice (hemi-good) guy trying to put on a bad guy image.

Lets not forget that evil is in fact how one views another. 
for example, If you eat a bucket of ice cream you  could feel happy about it because you had all that ice cream to yourself.  Though getting a stomach ache would make the idea a bad one in 20:20 hind sight.
Or two sides to a war. 
Both sides would think that the other side is evil, even though both sides are not evil (it happened in a World War).

That can explain the differences between how Able views Destania and Aaryanna views her (lets not also forget that Aary-kitty took over Destania's position).

Though I do not think Destania was really evil, I think she was more like Able. Putting on an evil front and doing her best to prepare her students for the outside world
(though judging from what Able said she could have used a different approach).

This comic adds more intregue and mystery to the Mysteries that are Daniel, Able, Destania, Edward and how they got together.

also as someone once said, "there is no black and white, just shades of gray."

i love the end "are you too scarred to read it, you should be" lol

no wonder arry looked up to destinia

If you are living a world where people solve problems with violence and pointy fangs and claws (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_534.php), being nice is not necessarily going to be helpful to your friends, and knowing all of the dirty tricks may intimidate your enemies into leaving you alone.  As Machiavelli said, it is better to rule through fear than through love.  (You can argue whether this is a reasonable statement now, but it was probably appropriate for his time.)  As Kria Soulstealer said, how the skills are used is up to the individual. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_24.php)

Furthermore, if the only cubi who don't disguise themselves are the very arrogant and the extremely powerful, (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_620.php) it means that what beings know about cubi is actually based on a very small, unrepresentative fraction of the population.

Regardless, this is not a world that I'd want to live in.  However, the world wasn't very nice for the non-Romans during the Roman Empire or for the medieval English during the frequent raids by the Norsemen.

******
Edit:

By the way, it looks like Abel learned quite a bit in the course in pain and terror (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_425.php).

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 03:51:53 PM
If you're not planning to come back, then you should probably retire.  It doesn't mean that you hate what you did, but simply that you may have found something better.

She was planning to come back.  According to what Alexsi was told, anyway.  Falling in love with a Being and raising a child kind of scuppered that.  Either way, Fa'Lina was left with no P&T department.

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 03:51:53 PM
This is my theory, right now.  If you want to keep a job as professor of Pain and Terror, you have to teach pain and terror.  And effectively.  I'm imagining Destania played by Donald Sutherland saying, "Don't write this down, but I find pain and terror probably as despicable as you find pain and terror."

There's only one problem with that theory - pain is the emotion she's most keyed to, so she is going to get a kick out of it.  (I might also add that she taught the 'incantation ploy' thing as a joke to allow you to kill your Being easier).

It had occurred to me that she might have stopped getting a kick out of pain.  If you had your favourite food for seven thousand years I imagine you'd get pretty sick of it.

Another, related aspect is certain drugs used recreationally in humans.  Various opiates, I believe.  The body builds up a resistance to them, so a higher and higher dose is required to get a kick from them.  If pain works that way for Destania, it might be that she 'burned out' in this manner.  A problem with this theory is that her interest in it would have waned.  The students would have noticed this - unless she was putting on a front, which is possible - and Abel would have had a far less harsh description of her.

Am I the only one who thinks this is pretty gripping? :P

Also - is it just me, or is Abel getting a bit of a Karen Carpenter look about him? Cat needs more pie.

Take 2: the one I was thinking of when I made a mess earlier.

I find a fairly interesting contrast between Aniz and Destania.  Not the characters, but our reactions to them.  To Aniz, I see constant "Oh no, he gave Abel a brow cut!  BURN HIM!!!11!!oneoneone"  whereas with Destania, I see "Oh, I bet she had a good reason for teaching rape and murder, she must have been putting up a front, she couldn't have been so bad."

All we really know right now are the differences between the Destania we've seen, lying to her own stepdaughter, even for her own good, and the Destania Abel is describing, who may in fact be the scariest thing he's ever met... though I suspect Ink is in the top 3, as he's the image Abel got for "Imagine the most evil thing possible."  If there was a marked change, then the change itself and the reason will probably be illustrated at a later point.

One thing of note is that Dee clearly does love Edward, in steep contrast to the "incantation ploy" which she concocted, as illustrated by her willingness to go to great lengths on his behalf, even after 25 years.  Aaryana didn't do that.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:17:10 PM

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 03:51:53 PMIf you're not planning to come back, then you should probably retire.  It doesn't mean that you hate what you did, but simply that you may have found something better.

She was planning to come back.  According to what Alexsi was told, anyway.  Falling in love with a Being and raising a child kind of scuppered that.  Either way, Fa'Lina was left with no P&T department.

Right.  She was planning to come back, but she never did.  I think that disappearing for 25 years and having your son tell your boss that she's left for parts unknown is a pretty effective way to tender your resignation.

(and if she had been expecting a long assignment away from SAIA, she might have taken some personal effects with her.)

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:17:10 PMThere's only one problem with that theory - pain is the emotion she's most keyed to, so she is going to get a kick out of it.  (I might also add that she taught the 'incantation ploy' thing as a joke to allow you to kill your Being easier).

I'm not saying she's not a right b*stard, but everything we've seen from her so far seems to indicate that she's not quite as bad as Abel says.  Sure, she's planning to commit genocide, but the fact that she wasn't stubbing a cigarette butt out in Biggs' eye as she was saying that suggests that she's probably a couple notches lower than Abel would have Dan believe.

Quote from: Raist on August 27, 2007, 06:34:33 PMI find a fairly interesting contrast between Aniz and Destania.  Not the characters, but our reactions to them.  To Aniz, I see constant "Oh no, he gave Abel a brow cut!  BURN HIM!!!11!!oneoneone"  whereas with Destania, I see "Oh, I bet she had a good reason for teaching rape and murder, she must have been putting up a front, she couldn't have been so bad."

Who are the Destania apologists?  Who are the Aniz haters?  Are they the same people?

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 06:48:44 PM
Who are the Destania apologists?  Who are the Aniz haters?  Are they the same people?

They're simply the loudest people in both given groups.  Actually, in retrospective, I think the Destania apologists are the same people as the Aniz apologists, but I'd have to go back and look to make sure.

I've got an hour until my next class, maybe I should do that.

Dee sympathizers include...
Tapewolf
Superluser(you)
Turnsky
Regal
GabrielsThoughts(though apparently not Gabriel himself.  Just his thoughts.)
Aurawyn
Naldru

Aniz crucifyers include...
AndersW
Techmaster Glitch
Madmann135
Shadowcatcher
Zedd
Manawolf
Illusionist
Aleolus(who actually started preaching to the fictional character)
Cogidubnus

Hmm, no overlap, it seems.  Point made.

Quote from: Wanderer on August 27, 2007, 10:18:08 AM
Well. This is interesting news. Another viewpoint on Destania. I'm honestly at a loss as to what to make of this woman.

How about meat cookies?

Now now Raist I didnt say anything to slay Aniz or practily worship him..Your puting words in my mouth

Quote from: Raist on August 27, 2007, 02:47:27 PM
I'm surprised Drip hasn't been mentioned yet, as what Abel just said in the comic resembles what the general board populice says about Drip quite closely, just not in as much detail.

Dee vs. Drip: who's more evil?

(shakes her head disappontedly) That you'd even compare the two is shameful.

Destania doesn't even come close to Drip; she can feel compassion, and she cares enough about someone to kill dragons for them. Drip knows no such feelings; he thinks of people as victims, and he could never care about anyone more than himself. (taps Raist's knuckles with a ruler for not realizing this)

Quote from: Stygian on August 27, 2007, 12:22:37 PM
When dragons go and kidnap her husband, what does she do? She plots and tries to wipe out the whole lot of them, that's what.

I'm not so sure about that. I got the impression from earlier mentions that the feud between Cyra Clan and the Dragons was something that had been going on for what we'd consider quite a long time. Maybe hundreds of years, maybe even thousands, certainly a lot longer than Edward's been kidnapped. Remember Biggs' comment to Destania (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_726.php) about her being a friend of his family "for generations". Could that be how long she's been working on her plans against the Dragons? I see it as the other way round: the Dragons snatched Edward in an attempt to flush Destania out and maybe find out more about her plans.

As I mentioned before, I believe that I could be considered an agnostic when it comes to Destania and Aniz.  (agnostic actually means "without knowledge", as opposed to the gnostics, who believed that they knew the secrets of the universe.)  I don't know how cubi training methods compare to those of ancient Sparta or those of the Japanese armed forces in the first half of the twentieth century, but those two groups definitely had training techniques that would be abhorrent today.

If Destania or Aniz existed in modern American society, I feel that they should probably be in prison for the types of actions that they carry out. However, the stories aren't taking place in modern society.  If I seem to be an apologist for these two, it is because I feel that the attacks are based on emotion rather than logic.  As Spock said on Star Trek, there seems to be no location where logic is more sorely needed.

I remember when the animated film Pocahontas was released by Disney, and all of the discussions about whether the two sides were accurately portrayed.  Russell Means, who was one of the voice actors, summed it up very well: "It's just a story, folks."

Quote from: Raist on August 27, 2007, 06:50:40 PMDee sympathizers include...
Superluser(you)

Well, I don't know if I sympathize with her.  She's liable to be worse than the most despicable person on Earth, but I still think she's not as bad as Abel lets on.

Quote from: Naldru on August 27, 2007, 07:59:21 PMI remember when the animated film Pocahontas was released by Disney, and all of the discussions about whether the two sides were accurately portrayed.  Russell Means, who was one of the voice actors, summed it up very well: "It's just a story, folks."

Well, except that Pocahontas was real.

Quote from: Madmann135 on August 27, 2007, 04:18:26 PMalso as someone once said, "there is no black and white, just shades of gray."

I don't think anyone's doubting that, but so far, the evidence (Abel's testimony - you know it's spelled "Abel", right?) - points toward Destania being pretty darned close to black.

Quote from: Naldru on August 27, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
If you are living a world where people solve problems with violence and pointy fangs and claws (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_534.php), being nice is not necessarily going to be helpful to your friends, and knowing all of the dirty tricks may intimidate your enemies into leaving you alone.

Which would explain fighting techniques, and "dirty" ones, at that.  But I still don't see where torture and rape play in.

Quote from: Naldru on August 27, 2007, 04:36:14 PMFurthermore, if the only cubi who don't disguise themselves are the very arrogant and the extremely powerful, (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_620.php) it means that what beings know about cubi is actually based on a very small, unrepresentative fraction of the population.

...now that is actually a pretty interesting point, I must admit.  Hmm.

*Charles nods*  Yeah, and John Smith was like 50.  But Pocahantas was a teenager... HE WAS A PEDO!!!   :U
And what name does the Doctor give whenever he's asked for one?  JOHN SMITH!!!  They were one and the same!  The Doctor is really a time-travelling alien child molester!  ZOMG!  Now you all know yet another horrible truth!   :U

*Charline  :erk *  Oh dear, I think the brain damage I gave him was permanent this time.  Oh well.  Anyway, it remains to be seen if Destania ever had any real feelings for Edward, or if she was and still is using him.  Personally, I vote for using him.  But I'm biased since I'm truly evil.   >:3

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 08:40:50 PM

Quote from: Naldru on August 27, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
If you are living a world where people solve problems with violence and pointy fangs and claws (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_534.php), being nice is not necessarily going to be helpful to your friends, and knowing all of the dirty tricks may intimidate your enemies into leaving you alone.

Which would explain fighting techniques, and "dirty" ones, at that.  But I still don't see where torture and rape play in.

Unfortunately, some societies today view rape and torture as just another means of intimidation.  Take a look at Northern Ireland thirty years ago and Africa and the Middle East today.

Hmm... Lesse.
Destania feeds on terror and pain.
She taught torture, murder, rape, and all sorts of other nasty things.
She had previously invested interest in Abel.
And Abel hates her guts.
Put it all together, and what do you get?
A really pathetic theory on my part. I actually doubt this more than any other theory I've thought up for this particular comic, which is why I'm posting it. So we can let go of all this tense grey/black/white stuff and laugh at somebody. Even if that unfortunate someone is me.
But seriously, I have no idea about any of this. It seems to me that Abel and Aary saw two totally different people, probably due to their introductions to the Cubi world. Abel's is pretty damn awful, and Aaryanna's seems to have been a bit better, judging by her willingness to inflict pain and rape and and all that other fun stuff. (see comics 218,222, and 226. Sorry, haven't figured out how to put in links. *is an idiot*)

Quote from: Sajoli on August 27, 2007, 09:47:24 PM(see comics 218,222, and 226. Sorry, haven't figured out how to put in links. *is an idiot*)

Highlight the text you want to turn into a link and put "=[the link you want]" after "url".  It's not exactly intuitive.

Oi, Dan!  What do you think you're doing, renting a book from the library of a place you don't plan on ever going back to?!?

On a funnier note, think about if Abel really did have a crush on Destiana.  Wouldn't that cause quite a bit of hysterics when she finally shows up?

Quote from: Aleolus on August 27, 2007, 10:12:33 PM
Oi, Dan!  What do you think you're doing, renting a book from the library of a place you don't plan on ever going back to?!?

On a funnier note, think about if Abel really did have a crush on Destiana.  Wouldn't that cause quite a bit of hysterics when she finally shows up?

That could be true,Abel seems to always claim to be an expert at"jerkdom",murder,rape,and torture just seem to be a one up on a jerk.

Quote from: Aleolus on August 27, 2007, 10:12:33 PM
Oi, Dan!  What do you think you're doing, renting a book from the library of a place you don't plan on ever going back to?!?

On a funnier note, think about if Abel really did have a crush on Destiana.  Wouldn't that cause quite a bit of hysterics when she finally shows up?

Dan has to return for one month a year (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_592.php) or Fa'lina crushes his spine like a stalk of celery (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_599.php).

The meeting between Abel and Destania should be interesting either way.

Quote from: Caswin on August 27, 2007, 10:10:29 PM

Quote from: Sajoli on August 27, 2007, 09:47:24 PM(see comics 218,222, and 226. Sorry, haven't figured out how to put in links. *is an idiot*)

Highlight the text you want to turn into a link and put "=[the link you want]" after "url".  It's not exactly intuitive.

Highlighting does not make url tags appear. You've got to click the "Insert Hyperlink" button, too.  :3 

Sajoli, to make a text link, it should look like this in the "post reply" box:
See [url=http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_778.php]comic 778[/url] which proves my theory that Abel wants to hit Dan with an axe.
When posted, it'll look like this:

See comic 778 (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_778.php) which proves my theory that Abel wants to hit Dan with an axe.

Superluser and Zedd, I just went through and recorded everyone who expressed one-sided sentiments of rage towards Aniz or one-sided sentiments of "maybe she had a reason for it, or a sudden change of heart" towards Destania.

Technically, I belong in the first grouping as well, currently, but I'd prefer to see how things unfold before actually choosing a side.

BlackAngel, I think I've mentioned before, I don't read Jack.  I don't actually know what goes on there.

*pulls shot glass away from Zina* ah, not this time.

Quote from: Black_angel on August 27, 2007, 07:45:06 PM

(shakes her head disappontedly) That you'd even compare the two is shameful.

Destania doesn't even come close to Drip; she can feel compassion, and she cares enough about someone to kill dragons for them. Drip knows no such feelings; he thinks of people as victims, and he could never care about anyone more than himself. (taps Raist's knuckles with a ruler for not realizing this)

Not true... Drip, as a creation of God, does have such feelings, though likely to such a low extent that it rarely shows up. Do note that of Destinia's many years of existance, only in the recent couple of years did she start to show compassion. Drip only had how many years of existance thus far? Reference: http://pholph.com/index_a.php?Strip=262 (you can't struggle against something that doesn't exist, so it must exist to an extent)

BLAH BLAH BLAH JACK BLAH

Quote from: Sajoli on August 27, 2007, 09:47:24 PM. It seems to me that Abel and Aary saw two totally different people, probably due to their introductions to the Cubi world. Abel's is pretty damn awful, and Aaryanna's seems to have been a bit better, judging by her willingness to inflict pain and rape and and all that other fun stuff. (see comics 218,222, and 226. Sorry, haven't figured out how to put in links. *is an idiot*)

Thats good points.  Abel was raised as a being.. Aary mostly likely in a cubi clan.. they are coming from two totally different starting points.. Aary probably saw all kinds of bad things are normal starting at a very young age, where as we see abel's introduction to Cubiess at a much older age and after a far more"Normal upbringing.

What we have SEEN of Dee makes her out to be faaar less evil then what Abel has said, and untill we actually see more of her back story I will withhold total judgment..

PS. you guys are really hard on Alexis! She dosen't seem nearly as bad as you guys are making her out to be! Look here she is somewhat comforting. dan (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_379.php)

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 27, 2007, 05:17:10 PM

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 03:51:53 PM
If you're not planning to come back, then you should probably retire.  It doesn't mean that you hate what you did, but simply that you may have found something better.

She was planning to come back.  According to what Alexsi was told, anyway.  Falling in love with a Being and raising a child kind of scuppered that.  Either way, Fa'Lina was left with no P&T department.

Quote from: superluser on August 27, 2007, 03:51:53 PM
This is my theory, right now.  If you want to keep a job as professor of Pain and Terror, you have to teach pain and terror.  And effectively.  I'm imagining Destania played by Donald Sutherland saying, "Don't write this down, but I find pain and terror probably as despicable as you find pain and terror."

There's only one problem with that theory - pain is the emotion she's most keyed to, so she is going to get a kick out of it.  (I might also add that she taught the 'incantation ploy' thing as a joke to allow you to kill your Being easier).

It had occurred to me that she might have stopped getting a kick out of pain.  If you had your favourite food for seven thousand years I imagine you'd get pretty sick of it.

well, if emotions were like sound, you hear a nice song, you get enjoyment out of it, if it's too loud, it might deafen you.. the same analogy could apply to emotions, she might've gotten too much pain, as it were, i know 'cubi have mental barriers to keep themselves from getting too much, but the proverbial dam walls can only hold so much before they crumble.

Quote from: Aurawyn on August 28, 2007, 02:02:19 AM
Thats good points.  Abel was raised as a being.. Aary mostly likely in a cubi clan.. they are coming from two totally different starting points.. Aary probably saw all kinds of bad things are normal starting at a very young age, where as we see abel's introduction to Cubiess at a much older age and after a far more"Normal upbringing.

The fact that he still sleeps and eats and doesn't like shapeshifting makes me wonder whether he wishes he was still a Being, even after 375 years.  It might be that Dan is actually better at adapting than him.  Dan uses his morphing powers to make Godzilla and Pacman.  I can easily see Dan using his ability to stay up all night in a rave or something.

But yes, the fact that Abel (and Dan) were raised as Beings has a lot to do with the whole good-evil business.

QuotePS. you guys are really hard on Alexis! She dosen't seem nearly as bad as you guys are making her out to be! Look here she is somewhat comforting. dan (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_379.php)

Yes, and the other one is in Disasters, but that's it.  I guess I'm just fed up with the way she treats Dan.  Either way, she really should have told Dan that his mother is still alive, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  She might have mentioned that his mother knew Abel.  She hasn't - Dan had to work that out on his own.  And she owes Dan for the inn business.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 04:15:14 AM

Quote from: Aurawyn on August 28, 2007, 02:02:19 AM
Thats good points.  Abel was raised as a being.. Aary mostly likely in a cubi clan.. they are coming from two totally different starting points.. Aary probably saw all kinds of bad things are normal starting at a very young age, where as we see abel's introduction to Cubiess at a much older age and after a far more"Normal upbringing.

The fact that he still sleeps and eats and doesn't like shapeshifting makes me wonder whether he wishes he was still a Being, even after 375 years.  It might be that Dan is actually better at adapting than him.  Dan uses his morphing powers to make Godzilla and Pacman.  I can easily see Dan using his ability to stay up all night in a rave or something.

But yes, the fact that Abel (and Dan) were raised as Beings has a lot to do with the whole good-evil business.

QuotePS. you guys are really hard on Alexis! She dosen't seem nearly as bad as you guys are making her out to be! Look here she is somewhat comforting. dan (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_379.php)

Yes, and the other one is in Disasters, but that's it.  I guess I'm just fed up with the way she treats Dan.  Either way, she really should have told Dan that his mother is still alive, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  She might have mentioned that his mother knew Abel.  She hasn't - Dan had to work that out on his own.  And she owes Dan for the inn business.

given that Alexsi's only related to Dan by father, and the fact that Dan's a Incubus to boot, there might be a little envy there. Sure 'cubi have a Stigma about 'em, but Dan's Dan, he isn't your usual Incubus, he might be a new generation of 'cubi that's far more "socially adjusted" than his more experienced peers.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 04:15:14 AM

Yes, and the other one is in Disasters, but that's it.  I guess I'm just fed up with the way she treats Dan.  Either way, she really should have told Dan that his mother is still alive, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  She might have mentioned that his mother knew Abel.  She hasn't - Dan had to work that out on his own.  And she owes Dan for the inn business.

Just wanted to correct you on 2 things...

1) Where did it say Dan doesn't know his mom is alive? We know that Dan last met her in Twink Territories, which shouldn't be too far ago.
2) I see no where about Alexi even knowing WHO Abel is before her reunion with Destinia. So far it's like only 24 hours since Alexi knew about that association. (basically, time from her returning from kidnapping, Which Dan happen to walk out of the door for no apparent reason, then her getting them to work on chores first thing in the morning. Not really much time to have a talk, especially if she's in a bad mood for almost everyone not missing her.) For all we know, she is intentionally trying to get Dan and Abel to bond together.

[EDIT] On hindsight, her sending Dan to get back her hammer might have been an indirect way to arrange a meeting with Destania, since she DID know that Destania went there. [/EDIT]

[MORE EDIT] Wait a minute... Abel wasn't learning pain and terror from Destania to begin with. (or at least, that isn't the vested interest that Destinia had with Abel.) She was teaching him how to survive without anyone's help... [/MORE EDIT]

Quote from: Psaakyrn on August 28, 2007, 04:38:57 AM
Just wanted to correct you on 2 things...

1) Where did it say Dan doesn't know his mom is alive? We know that Dan last met her in Twink Territories, which shouldn't be too far ago.

I stand corrected.

Quote2) I see nowhere about Alexi even knowing WHO Abel is before her reunion with Destinia.

When Dan returned from SAIA, Abel turned up with him.  By my reckoning there have been at least four days since then.

QuoteSo far it's like only 24 hours since Alexi knew about that association. (basically, time from her returning from kidnapping, Which Dan happen to walk out of the door for no apparent reason, then her getting them to work on chores first thing in the morning. Not really much time to have a talk, especially if she's in a bad mood for almost everyone not missing her.) For all we know, she is intentionally trying to get Dan and Abel to bond together.

That is a possibility, I'll admit.  I've been assuming a slightly larger time-lapse, say a week.

**EDIT**
But that wouldn't wash, since they should have noticed Wildy's absence by then.

QuoteWait a minute... Abel wasn't learning pain and terror from Destania to begin with. (or at least, that isn't the vested interest that Destinia had with Abel.) She was teaching him how to survive without anyone's help...

Yes.  This is an interesting point that no-one has explored yet and I kept forgetting to bring up myself.

If she's really that evil, how did he manage to pluck up the courage to ask her to help him in that regard?  Unless of course they have some kind of optional module scheme in SAIA and he kept taking the 'surviving alone' module over and over again...

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 04:15:14 AMAnd she owes Dan for the inn business.

It's late, and my brain isn't too clear, but I don't remember ever hearing that Dan has an explicit stake in the business.

Quote from: Psaakyrn on August 28, 2007, 04:38:57 AMAbel wasn't learning pain and terror from Destania to begin with. (or at least, that isn't the vested interest that Destinia had with Abel.) She was teaching him how to survive without anyone's help...

From her perspective, they might be the same thing.  I'd think that Pain and Terror are mighty useful tools for surviving without anyone else's help.

Quote from: superluser on August 28, 2007, 05:36:47 AM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 04:15:14 AMAnd she owes Dan for the inn business.

It's late, and my brain isn't too clear,

Evidently  >:3

I meant the scene where he pretended to be her in order to save the magazine interview, not the day-to-day running of the inn from a financial perspective.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 05:39:15 AM

Quote from: superluser on August 28, 2007, 05:36:47 AM

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 04:15:14 AMAnd she owes Dan for the inn business.

It's late, and my brain isn't too clear,

Evidently  >:3

I meant the scene where he pretended to be her in order to save the magazine interview, not the day-to-day running of the inn from a financial perspective.

Alexsi might not know the full extent on how Dan helped her out, though.

Quote from: Turnsky on August 28, 2007, 05:53:39 AM
Alexsi might not know the full extent on how Dan helped her out, though.

That's a good point.

...

But Abel could still have the hots for her, Nope... didn't hear a denial.

...

Hmm... or Abel was the one that Dee used as a subject for the practical applications for her craft... including rape.

Quote from: King Of Hearts on August 28, 2007, 08:25:44 AM
Hmm... or Abel was the one that Dee used as a subject for the practical applications for her craft... including rape.

Let's just make it simple and say Destania was Kria's teacher or something to that effect. Not hard to imagine how she could've outsourced herself.

And as long as we're on the topic, I'd think that whenever Destania got around to teaching rape she'd be the demo /instructor and not the other way around... And if we're going that far, It's a safe bet that rape is traumatic enough without some Teacher grading you on technique.

From an artistic viewpoint, it was neat to see Abel's reaction in the lower left-hand corner... it looked like a watermelon'd down version of his mother's reaction in the Abel's Story arc.


Jigsaw Forte said:

And as long as we're on the topic, I'd think that whenever Destania got around to teaching rape she'd be the demo /instructor and not the other way around... And if we're going that far, It's a safe bet that rape is traumatic enough without some Teacher grading you on technique.

Comment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'


If you didn't know a lot about your mother, and you wanted to learn something about her and the only thing you knew about her was some book on torture, rape, and all those negative emotions, would you check it out of the library?  Could you take the risk that it would impact your world-view?

Would it be cowardice if you didn't or if you did?

Quote from: Wageslave on August 28, 2007, 09:19:07 AMComment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Consider the subjects at hand.  To not expect "creepy" is to be completely out of touch with pretty much the whole "dark" side of DMFA.

Quote from: Wageslave on August 28, 2007, 09:19:07 AMComment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON? :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk

Quote from: Jigsaw Forte on August 28, 2007, 09:01:57 AM

Quote from: King Of Hearts on August 28, 2007, 08:25:44 AM
Hmm... or Abel was the one that Dee used as a subject for the practical applications for her craft... including rape.

Let's just make it simple and say Destania was Kria's teacher or something to that effect. Not hard to imagine how she could've outsourced herself.

Since Kria was a demon and SAIA is an academy for cubi, it doesn't seem likely that Destania would have had Kria as a student.

Some of the techniques may have been taught on a more theoretical basis although there does seem to be some hands on demonstrations with regard to torture (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_530.php).  However, just because martial arts classes may teach you how to kill somebody, it doesn't mean that they actually kill anybody during the training.

However, it also appears that cubi use the Burke and Hare (http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/burkhare.htm) method of  getting test subjects (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_386.php).  If you want to give Destania the benefit of the doubt, you can picture her getting her test subjects from the local outlaw community.

That last panel is the best part. 

Quote from: techmaster-glitch on August 28, 2007, 10:05:39 AM

Quote from: Wageslave on August 28, 2007, 09:19:07 AMComment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON? :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk

Random people grabbed from their homes against their will?

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all? :kruger

Quote from: Caswin on August 28, 2007, 11:12:03 AM

Quote from: techmaster-glitch on August 28, 2007, 10:05:39 AM

Quote from: Wageslave on August 28, 2007, 09:19:07 AMComment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON? :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk

Random people grabbed from their homes against their will?

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all? :kruger

in that day and age, well.. the pun of "serf's up" may apply.

Quote from: Caswin on August 28, 2007, 11:12:03 AM
What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all? :kruger

I was thinking they'd be a bit more dead than that  :B

Quote from: Turnsky on August 28, 2007, 11:39:26 AM

Quote from: Caswin on August 28, 2007, 11:12:03 AM

Quote from: techmaster-glitch on August 28, 2007, 10:05:39 AM

Quote from: Wageslave on August 28, 2007, 09:19:07 AMComment:  Wow, that's just creepy.  Creepier than your grandmother watching you get your groove on.  'Now do it again, but make sure your victim really feels it... you won't pass this course until you do!'

Whoa. That IS creepy. It also makes you wonder. Even if Dee is the first-time demonstrator/instructor, who do they PRACTICE ON? :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk :erk

Random people grabbed from their homes against their will?

What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all? :kruger

in that day and age, well.. the pun of "serf's up" may apply.

Ouch.  Nice pun.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 11:43:55 AM

Quote from: Caswin on August 28, 2007, 11:12:03 AM
What's a few beings left as sobbing wrecks, after all? :kruger

I was thinking they'd be a bit more dead than that  :B

That would depend on the student, instructor, and class.  There's only so much you can inflict on a dead body.

Quote from: Caswin on August 28, 2007, 11:54:04 AM
That would depend on the student, instructor, and class.  There's only so much you can inflict on a dead body.

I'm thinking it would be like trying to get that last little bit out of the jar.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on August 27, 2007, 10:41:28 AM
Who is defining this evil, Evil is a pretty vague and broad subject.

Please, not the stupid act of saying it's all relative.  Abel's did give at least 3 examples of entirely evil acts (and anyone who tries to discount torture and rape as not being evil need a kick in the groin).

Also, not sure it's been said yet (I'm not reading back through four pages of this chatter), but Destania did say she left her old life behind when Dan was born.  Obviously, this meant her life of evil, as her new priority was looking after Dan and her family (such as her husband who she is still searching for in Twink territory).

I don't know, I think hello kitty is evil, but I'm sure many would disagree... in the dark ages I'm sure rape and torture were considered less evil than masturbation. I never said she wasn't evil, but I would like to see the scale of evil with regards to the DMFA Universe.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on August 28, 2007, 12:37:01 PM
I don't know, I think hello kitty is evil, but I'm sure many would disagree... in the dark ages I'm sure rape and torture were considered less evil than masturbation. I never said she wasn't evil, but I would like to see the scale of evil with regards to the DMFA Universe.

offhand i'd say Dee would be perfect among the spanish inquisition.

I'm reminded of some lines from the Tom Smith song 'Hellraiser' as we keep talking about 'evil'

"...everything is relative within the eyes of God, someone's pain is someone else's delight.. and all it takes is just a subtle change in point of view to make the wrongs of Man seem good and right..."

((http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/hellraiser.htm for the full lyrics))

If one could be anything they wanted (in essence) and were subject to the emotions and thoughts of those around them, wouldn't a little bit of 'burn-out' be desired by powers that be to prevent pure and utter chaos that would disrupt the carefully organized Academy and the world order as a whole?

"In this class we're going to instruct you in Torture 101: Basics of Information Gathering.  With the ability to gather the data you need for infiltration without destroying the opportunity that gave you the information should you need it again in the future"

Quote from: Manawolf on August 28, 2007, 12:27:34 PM
Please, not the stupid act of saying it's all relative.  Abel's did give at least 3 examples of entirely evil acts (and anyone who tries to discount torture and rape as not being evil need a kick in the groin).

While I'm not trying to justify it, consider that we humans rape, torture and kill turkeys and other livestock - and for the most part, people consider this normal.  You have people who go vegetarian over it but for the most part no-one seems to care.

Now flip this over, and the Creature PoV is that Beings are as far below them as turkeys are below us.  You'll get 'Cubi who think it's abhorrent, especially from those who were raised as Beings, but in many cases you'd have a "Shame, but it was only a Being" attitude.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 01:31:25 PM

Quote from: Manawolf on August 28, 2007, 12:27:34 PM
Please, not the stupid act of saying it's all relative.  Abel's did give at least 3 examples of entirely evil acts (and anyone who tries to discount torture and rape as not being evil need a kick in the groin).

While I'm not trying to justify it, consider that we humans rape, torture and kill turkeys and other livestock - and for the most part, people consider this normal.  You have people who go vegetarian over it but for the most part no-one seems to care.

Now flip this over, and the Creature PoV is that Beings are as far below them as turkeys are below us.  You'll get 'Cubi who think it's abhorrent, especially from those who were raised as Beings, but in many cases you'd have a "Shame, but it was only a Being" attitude.

I'd argue most people don't think raping turkeys is particularly normal.  In fact, I recall talking to a particular pacifist and sex addict who will remain unnamed, who would have taken peoples' heads at the suggestion.


On the topic of "surviving alone," intimidation is far more effective at keeping yourself from getting hurt than killing, as it takes less effort and prevents you from breaking laws.(not that Cubi would care about laws)  Case in point, I've been taught that when you're surrounded by hostile gang members(a very real possibility where I live, though not a common one), they will send the smallest of their number to attack you, and then if you hit him, they'll mob you "out of protection."  Instead, the proper strategy is to ignore the little guy, search out the biggest guy in the group, and deal one or two strikes.  Nothing fancy, just something brutal and vicious enough to bloody him a bit or knock him out cold.  Then, take the distraction, and RUN FOR YOUR EVER-LOVING LIFE!

Quote from: Raist on August 28, 2007, 03:00:55 PM
I'd argue most people don't think raping turkeys is particularly normal.

Usually it's referred to as artificial insemination, but the net result is the same for the turkey.

Will it blend? That, is the question.

Definitions and meanings applied to the words rape, torture, and murder that are not as evil as you thinkl

Rape...
1. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

2. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Torture...
1.to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.)

2.the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

Murder...
1. a group or flock of crows.

2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.

Quote from: GabrielsThoughts on August 28, 2007, 04:27:36 PM
Definitions and meanings applied to the words rape, torture, and murder that are not as evil as you thinkl

Rape...
1. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

2. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Torture...
1.to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.)

2.the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

Murder...
1. a group or flock of crows.

2. Slang Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.

I'm... pretty sure that's not what Abel was talking about.

EDIT: Much as I may hate to admit it, the "it's all relative" argument makes sense here.  "Evil is a strong/vague word" and "shades of grey", however, have practically no bearing.  I'm getting tired of hearing those.

As an addendum to the turkey arguement, I would like to remind that the target victims of the lessons taught is likely intended for Beings.

A) Creatures view beings as lesser creatures/lifestock.
B) Most Creatures are not raised as beings. The only exception we've seen is Dan and Abel.
C) For comparison, consider how we view Lorenda: Even though she is more being-adjusted than most creatures, she still occasionally eats people who irritates her (like door-to-door salesmen).

Likely, only Beings (or Creatures raised as such) view these acts as Evil. Creatures are more likely to view this as a "How-to" on Bestiality. (and assuming that Bestiality is acceptable norms as well) (I'm not going to go into the whole Zoophile/Bestiality arguement here, so don't push this analogy too far please. :x )

[EDIT] Clarafication: I'm not implying that the "rape" of turkeys was referring to any bestiality acts, but was using the turkey analogy to link back to the point that Creatures view Beings as cccc lesser creatures/lifestock. [/EDIT]

Quote from: Psaakyrn on August 28, 2007, 06:27:26 PM
Likely, only Beings (or Creatures raised as such) view these acts as Evil. Creatures are more likely to view this as a "How-to" on Bestiality. (and assuming that Bestiality is acceptable norms as well) (I'm not going to go into the whole Zoophile/Bestiality arguement here, so don't push this analogy too far please. :x )

I'm starting to get worried here.  Just in case I am the only person who saw the clip on 'top 20 most disgusting jobs' or whatever it was, I'd just like to state that my comments about turkey rape pertain to the breeding techniques used in industrial farming.  Not perversion.

Quote from: Tapewolf on August 28, 2007, 07:25:23 PM

Quote from: Psaakyrn on August 28, 2007, 06:27:26 PM
Likely, only Beings (or Creatures raised as such) view these acts as Evil. Creatures are more likely to view this as a "How-to" on Bestiality. (and assuming that Bestiality is acceptable norms as well) (I'm not going to go into the whole Zoophile/Bestiality arguement here, so don't push this analogy too far please. :x )

I'm starting to get worried here.  Just in case I am the only person who saw the clip on 'top 20 most disgusting jobs' or whatever it was, I'd just like to state that my comments about turkey rape pertain to the breeding techniques used in industrial farming.  Not perversion.

Not that some people wouldn't think it was just fine, am I right? :B

This brings up an interesting point also, as far as I know, Abel grew up in a creature-centric area. He was educated with and among creatures (demons, angels, mythos, basilisk, etc.) the environment he was raised in at 'home' was the only contact he had with beings, His father was also a creature, even if he pretended to be a being, therefore the idea that most creatures view beings as livestock does not seem viable, because  that would have been subconsciously engrained on Abel's personality as well. 

The reality is that beings are more hypercritcal, and a majority likely view Creatures as Monsters

whereas only a minority of creatures view beings as inferior.

According to Abel, having a distrust of cubi is not altogether unreasonable (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_657.php).  And some mythos have personal attributes that could be somewhat frightening (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_641.php).  So, it isn't surprising that cubi would resort to disguise to avoid disturbing the locals (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_620.php) and Pyroduck avoids going around in his dragon form (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_683.php).  Given their long lifetimes, creatures who want to be friendly could develop means for reassuring creatures around them or else techniques for disguising their potential destructiveness.  It is therefore reasonable to view any strange creature as a potential monster until proven otherwise.

With regard to the attitude of creatures towards beings, I suspect it would vary greatly.  And the hostile creatures would get more press than the nice ones (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_524.php).

*Charles looks at all the links to previous comics, examining the backlog for clues... and after many hours of mind-numbing calculations and scenario simulations he arrive at THE TRUTH!*  Fa'lina is totally dead sexy.   :3

*Charline face-palms*  I hate testosterone.

Quote from: Naldru on August 28, 2007, 10:24:00 PMIt is therefore reasonable to view any strange creature as a potential monster until proven otherwise.

Less so in a demon city.

Quote from: superluser on August 28, 2007, 11:16:28 PM

Quote from: Naldru on August 28, 2007, 10:24:00 PMIt is therefore reasonable to view any strange creature as a potential monster until proven otherwise.

Less so in a demon city.

I agree, for a number of reasons.

Creatures who believe in violent antisocial behavior are likely to have problems dealing with other creatures as well as with beings.  "Disturbing the peace" is taken very seriously by most cultures.

Beings who are especially nervous about living near creatures won't move to a demon city.

***

It should also be mentioned that the demon city Zinvth had many creatures, but only a fraction of them appeared to be actual demons.