Oedipal relations among creatures

[Eboreg]

I was thinking for a moment about how Creatures are in their childhood for a very short time compared to the rest of their lives and only start feeling the effects of degenerative aging far, far down the road. My question is, since after a while, children would look no different from their parents in terms of age, would any oedipal or semi-oedipal (like dating mom's childhood friend) relations ensue and how would Creature culture handle it? We've seen Dan and Abel react negatively to such relations but they were raised as Beings. How would a Creature who was raised in an almost Being-exclusive environment react?

[Tapewolf]

You certainly wouldn't want to do that for reproductive purposes since it is liable to play merry hell with the gene pool.

Recreationally... well, I don't know.  In my writings Daryil has been known to go for his descendants, but they're multiple generations removed from him.  Not least because the idea of him going for someone too close squicks me.

[Lying Foo]

Why should it be any more tempting than an older sibling in our world?  With a difference of, say, 3-5 years, they'll be an authority figure much of your life, who suddenly becomes "the same age" once you reach adulthood.  And at least in that case you were never on the far side of their privates.

[Plotting]

That is a really good question.

I think incest would still be taboo even for creatures. We would need Amber to tell us to know for sure though.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Incest being taboo is a cultural thing, not genetic - there have been cultures (ancient Egypt comes to mind) where it was less objected to than it is in Western culture.

Having said that, most of the objections to it boil down to it being bad for the genes; and this is a very very good reason to avoid it.


Which means that, chances are, there's something there saying that Creatures would tend to avoid it. In the case of Demons, I'd say "it makes you weaker" is a good starting point. That would fit in with their strength motif. As for other Creatures? I'd hazard a guess and say "some will, some won't"



Which is about par for humans as well. Go figure.

[Plotting]

Incest being taboo is a cultural thing, not genetic - there have been cultures (ancient Egypt comes to mind) where it was less objected to than it is in Western culture.

True. Other cultures which come to mind include the Inca and Ancient China. My understanding is that brother–sister marriage was a means of maintaining wealth and political power within one family in these cultures. Whether or not this was legal for all levels of society is another issue. It may have been acceptable for royal family to do this in these cultures, but it may have been taboo/illegal for everyone else.

I think that was the case with the Incas. Not 100% on this though.

[Zebra Bug]

Considering just how long lived creatures tend to be (even given for the likihood that they will not live to die of old age) I don't think it is something that matters a great deal. Well, Kria and Dan didn't really seem to think age was a problem for a bit there. http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1205.php

[Plotting]

Considering just how long lived creatures tend to be (even given for the likihood that they will not live to die of old age) I don't think it is something that matters a great deal. Well, Kria and Dan didn't really seem to think age was a problem for a bit there. http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1205.php

Age may not be an issue, but incest is a different matter. Kria and Dan are not in anyway related, so it is simply a case of a toyboy and a cougar. However, if they were relatives it probably would not have been acceptable.

If creatures or mythos were not adversely affected by inbreeding then Oedipal relationships may be acceptable. It would really depend on how closely related the individuals were and the culture of the creatures in question. A little like how cousins marring is acceptable in England (particularly in the case of royals and nobles in centuries gone by), where as in America the same relationships would be considered incestuous.

Note: When this thread talks of a "Oedipal relationship" I assume it is referring to an incestuous relationship, and is referring to Oedipus, who in ancient greek myths killed his father and married his mother. Which is just wrong...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

If creatures or mythos were not adversely affected by inbreeding then Oedipal relationships may be acceptable. It would really depend on how closely related the individuals were and the culture of the creatures in question. A little like how cousins marring is acceptable in England (particularly in the case of royals and nobles in centuries gone by), where as in America the same relationships would be considered incestuous.

Cousins marrying is _NOT_ acceptable in England. Just in the case of Royals in centuries past, when what the law was was "what I say".

... and "I say, she's a looker." *ahem*


Having said that, many of those who took advantage of this option, so to speak, were not, as you or I could think it, dealing from a full deck anyway, and were mostly the movers and shakers of the world, as it were. So... perhaps more apparently popular than a rational statistical approach might suggest, given the particular folks who indulged.

[ChaosMageX]

You know, this has me suddenly wondering: How long do creatures with such long lifespans remain virile?
How long to males continue to produce sperm and how long do females continue to menstruate?

I mean, even though physically they retain the body of a 25 year old for most of their lives, is it that the case for their reproductive systems as well?

All I know is that Zezzuva's dissertation on soul mechanics basically stated that her clan's research led to the theory that soul eating can have negative consequences, and sterility was among those, but what about in creatures that choose not to devour souls and live out their normal life-span?

[Tuyu]

Cousins marrying is _NOT_ acceptable in England. Just in the case of Royals in centuries past, when what the law was was "what I say".

Relatively modern, from what I understand. Example: In The Importance of Being Earnest, Jack and Gwendolyn are cousins. When I asked in class about the cultural acceptability of their marriage, I was told that in the Victorian Era, cousins were sufficiently far removed. (I've never bothered to confirm it elsewhere, though).

I wonder whether a cultural "generation gap" would have any relevance. What's been shown in the comic of the populations of Zinvth and SAIA may be poor examples--everyone in those places seems fairly well integrated into modern society, and those that don't fit as well also seem to be those that mostly loom in the background.

[Amber Williams]

It tends to vary from individual to culture really.

Kria for example, is a bit of a hedonist, but for her a great deal of it tends to depend on how she first encounters someone.  Someone she encounters as a child will always have that remnant of her feeling they are a child in comparison to her. Where as someone who considers themselves an adult and thus acts like one when she meets for the first time she'll consider an adult thus flirtable.  Which is why Kria would flirt with Dan but not with Abel even though Abel is far longer lived than Dan.

But that's more for general age gap, I am guessing folks are more talking about more incestuous style relationships? That is likely one of those situations where the giant "PG Because Amber doesn't want that stuff clogging up her continuity" hammer will likely be brought forth.  It's a subject that will likely never be touched in DMFA and I'm rather content to go with the mature "la la la doesn't happen" approach.  I know that most Cubi clans really frown upon the idea of clan members dating within the clan. (If Project Future was fully continuity-linked, I'm sure his clan would have a rather unsavory reputation  with a couple clans because of Daryl's practice.)   While I'm sure in the world such instances happen, I prefer to brush it aside for light-hearted comedy.

[Tapewolf]

But that's more for general age gap, I am guessing folks are more talking about more incestuous style relationships? That is likely one of those situations where the giant "PG Because Amber doesn't want that stuff clogging up her continuity" hammer will likely be brought forth.  It's a subject that will likely never be touched in DMFA and I'm rather content to go with the mature "la la la doesn't happen" approach.

Sounds like a plan.

I know that most Cubi clans really frown upon the idea of clan members dating within the clan. (If Project Future was fully continuity-linked, I'm sure his clan would have a rather unsavory reputation  with a couple clans because of Daryl's practice.)

Amusingly, Daryil clan was always designed to be something of a pariah clan to separate them from canon...
Again, with Daryil it's more casual flings with folks multiple generations removed from him, not dating in the conventional sense and certainly not inbreeding.  (Though interestingly, Sunblink's Jyraneth clan did since they were religious zealots who believe they must keep their blood 'pure')

[Plotting]

Cousins marrying is _NOT_ acceptable in England. Just in the case of Royals in centuries past, when what the law was was "what I say".

Relatively modern, from what I understand. Example: In The Importance of Being Earnest, Jack and Gwendolyn are cousins. When I asked in class about the cultural acceptability of their marriage, I was told that in the Victorian Era, cousins were sufficiently far removed. (I've never bothered to confirm it elsewhere, though).

Actually King Henry VIII (28 June 1491 – 28 January 1547) of England decreed cousin marriage to be legal. So it has been legal in England for over 400 years.

But as long as Amber is armed with her "Giant PG Because Amber doesn't want that stuff clogging up her continuity Hammer " we need to worry about incestuous relationships in Furae.

[Zebra Bug]

There we go, perverted ideas stopped by "Word of god".  It was an interesting discussion though. So on the subject, I cannot wait for Abel to see Kria. I've been waiting for them to meet in the current run since Abel's backstory introduced her as his Kindergarten teacher.

[Tuyu]

Unfortunately, unless she escapes from the zombies, she's out of the picture until after the clan leader meeting.

[Zebra Bug]

Well, I just reread the archives, which took several days. XD Considering Aliph's reaction to seeing Regina's posing (and her being his second-neice which would mean a sibling's granddaughter, which is somewhat far removed genetically, she's like, an eighth his same genetics, or something, talking out of my head here) I would say that creatures do have an aversion to....relations with relations.  

And also! Kria is only eighteen years older than Abel! 

[littlekreen]

You know, this has me suddenly wondering: How long do creatures with such long lifespans remain virile?
How long to males continue to produce sperm and how long do females continue to menstruate?

I mean, even though physically they retain the body of a 25 year old for most of their lives, is it that the case for their reproductive systems as well?

Well assuming creatures function remotely like we do but lack menopause at ~35:

The average female only has 300,000 oocytes left at puberty. As necessarily dormant cells, I assume as they lack a full set of dna, they can't self-repair and don't/can't reproduce. Only a small amount of them actually mature into eggs but I can't find a decent percentage I'll just guess 5% of that total end up as viable. So that puts about 15k eggs likely around the top end and the vast majority of those at the leeward end will have badly damaged dna. That puts about 1250 years at a perfect one ovum per month. Creatures that release more than one naturally shrink that number rapidly. I'd guess though that the miscarriage rate would spike badly after a certain point from that progressive genetic damage. Though I imagine trying 20 or even 200 years to get a viable pregnancy for someone who lives so long wouldn't be that much of a problem. Males don't have this specific problem unless damaged in some way by disease/chemicals/age.

TL;DR - I'm assuming they're like us. Females manufacture all at birth but males instead do so continuously. Total fertile years in theory, ~1250; in practice something far below that. Egg viability isn't linear. They have a freshness date.

Though any creature regenerating to the degree that some do may perhaps not have this problem in making brand new oocytes.

[ChaosMageX]

You know, this has me suddenly wondering: How long do creatures with such long lifespans remain virile?
How long to males continue to produce sperm and how long do females continue to menstruate?

I mean, even though physically they retain the body of a 25 year old for most of their lives, is it that the case for their reproductive systems as well?

Well assuming creatures function remotely like we do but lack menopause at ~35:

The average female only has 300,000 oocytes left at puberty. As necessarily dormant cells, I assume as they lack a full set of dna, they can't self-repair and don't/can't reproduce. Only a small amount of them actually mature into eggs but I can't find a decent percentage I'll just guess 5% of that total end up as viable. So that puts about 15k eggs likely around the top end and the vast majority of those at the leeward end will have badly damaged dna. That puts about 1250 years at a perfect one ovum per month. Creatures that release more than one naturally shrink that number rapidly. I'd guess though that the miscarriage rate would spike badly after a certain point from that progressive genetic damage. Though I imagine trying 20 or even 200 years to get a viable pregnancy for someone who lives so long wouldn't be that much of a problem. Males don't have this specific problem unless damaged in some way by disease/chemicals/age.

TL;DR - I'm assuming they're like us. Females manufacture all at birth but males instead do so continuously. Total fertile years in theory, ~1250; in practice something far below that. Egg viability isn't linear. They have a freshness date.

Though any creature regenerating to the degree that some do may perhaps not have this problem in making brand new oocytes.

Wow, your biological knowledge is impressive.  However, I highly doubt that menopause occurs at 200 years of age, especially considering that Kria became pregnant with Lorenda 394 years after her own birth, given their respective ages.

The main problem is that your analysis is based on genetic damage, but IIRC it's this very same build-up of genetic damage in our own bodies (and probably the bodies of Beings and shorter lived creatures) that brings on the symptoms of aging and eventual "natural" death as the body loses its ability to repair damage done to it throughout its lifespan.

Since the longer lived creatures stay youthful throughout most of their lives, they probably have a process that slows down or perhaps even prevents this genetic damage.  In fact, since demons (and likely angels as well) become harder to kill as they grow older, their bodies are likely doing the opposite and getting better at repairing cell damage as they age.  What has me curious is how far this system extends into their reproductive system.  Like the increase in the strength of the rest of their bodies, could demons possibly become more virile as they age, and eventually not even the strongest contraceptives could prevent them from becoming pregnant?

What I'm really curious about in particular is Cubi.  We know from Amber's statements in the forums that Cubi biology becomes less natural and more magical as they age, and we also know that they become completely sterile upon gaining a third set of wings, because at that point their biology is well beyond natural.  However, that makes me wonder about regular non-tri-winged Cubi.  If a Cubi were to continue aging without ascension, would there still be a point where their biology becomes so magical/unnatural that it extends to their reproductive system, and they then become sterile as if they had ascended?  Or would they hit some sort of menopause before this point for more natural biological reasons (genetic damage, oocytes limit, etc)?

EDIT:
It would also be interesting to learn how long succubi continue to experience their menstruation cycle, as the emotional effects of PMS are probably particularly intense for these creatures of emotion.  They'd probably be very vulnerable to falling into emotional feedback loops during their special time of the month, and that would be cause for concern for their well being (and in some cases the well being of others).

EDIT2: I apologize if mentioning contraceptives and menstruation is pushing the rating of this forum, and if necessary I'll remove them on request from a mod.

[littlekreen]

I just know enough to find answers that seem consistent with everything else.

The problem is the ovum are dormant cells. if creatures work like us no matter how regenerative their biology the eggs don't have a metabolism to effect any self repair to avoid the damage as they don't/can't have a full set of DNA to start with to combine in that way. Though if more and more of a creature's biology is replaced by magic I could see it becoming a problem. The eggs would effectively be permanently useless if entirely or mostly replaced with something not DNA. Male or female they might as well be sterile when the other half might not see anything to chemically interact with.

I don't know about more virile demons but if they had a far higher ability to repair the damage normally caused by age, notwithstanding magical effects, I think they'd just maintain youthful virility forever.  That would make them rather effective as far as reproducing though. if the regeneration by demons extends to all cells though a female minting new oocytes constantly would probably have a ludicrous fertility rate throughout their life.

There's no guarantee a creature would have a menstruation cycle though. Anything with an estrus cycle would more likely just reabsorb an unfertilized egg rather than dump large quantities of hormones to shed lining. Though I'd think getting caught in an emotional loop would be a problem in either case if for different reasons, heh.

[Inumo]

Seeing this much text makes me think of one thing:





In all seriousness, I applaud your ability to discuss this with intelligence and dignity. So I can contribute a bit, we know that there's magic in everything based on Jyrras' studies; what's to say that reproduction hasn't gained some of those magic qualities even in Beings, making the more magical biology a non-issue?

[Zebra Bug]

Maybe when a creature stop physically aging in their twenties, so do their ovum?

[littlekreen]

In all seriousness, I applaud your ability to discuss this with intelligence and dignity. So I can contribute a bit, we know that there's magic in everything based on Jyrras' studies; what's to say that reproduction hasn't gained some of those magic qualities even in Beings, making the more magical biology a non-issue?

Today I was pondering how to take over the world, pinky, that kind of effect to come up with something plausible for the gulf between species. Especially for something as complex as adaptive and standard magic effects to be inheritable even across hybrids let alone at all. The best I can think of is their captured cell (mitochondria) being something that transcribes from templates in mitochondrial DNA into whatever magic represents. Perhaps the creature DNA too, I suppose, but a captured cell is a more of a duplicate)  The passing from mother to child (the father wouldn't contribute a captured cell) might account for inherent magic from mother to child in spite of the other parent. Assuming some funky biology to account for cubi overwriting those magic based parts of the cell in their kids on conception and some threshold point on growth wouldn't be out of the question I suppose.

Maybe when a creature stop physically aging in their twenties, so do their ovum?

If the ovum is more robust against genetic damage by some sort of magic I bet they would they'd stay fertile a whole lot longer at that. I wager with so much random and/or uncontrolled magic in the environment, perhaps carrying a lot of radiation-like effects, this kind of hardening might float up through sheer evolution from the effect on birth rate.

[Eboreg]

 

[littlekreen]

Even if you're unable to contribute to an intelligent discussion I still like you anyway. ♥