Brotherhood of the Machine (OOC Thread) {03}

[Lisky]

the high voltage was a bluff actually... but he's not gonna let them know that at the moment.   As for integrating with a team, that'd be far less difficult if each side would show a little trust... which i believe he just initiated with the revealing of hidden capabilities of the armor

He's seeming like a loner at the moment because he's something akin to a scout/sharpshooter and he's also just been whacked in the back of the head soo he's also not thinking all that clearly... ya know, possible concussion and all

[techmaster-glitch]

the high voltage was a bluff actually... but he's not gonna let them know that at the moment.   As for integrating with a team, that'd be far less difficult if each side would show a little trust... which i believe he just initiated with the revealing of hidden capabilities of the armor

Oh yeah, we're gonna be reeeeal happy once we find out he lied about electified armor. Yeah, that's an initiation of trust

[Lisky]

true, but he also admitted that he was in possession of hidden weapons, and revealed them to the team

[techmaster-glitch]

Short of searching him while he's unconscious (as we would be putting ourselves at risk otherwise), how do we know he isn't lying about that? He could have even more stuff hidden.

[Arcalane]

i dunno about new underwear... definatly a bigger gun though

That would be reserved for me.  A 15.2mm tungsten carbide round is what my primary weapon chambers.  I currently hold the most powerful of dedicated matter small arms, excluding Exo's repeating grenade launcher thing.

Which is basically the bastard lovechild of a rocket launcher and a grenade pistol, yes, with rounds probably in the 20 to 40 mil' range. Just be thankful it doesn't have thermobaric rounds.

's practically useless vs heavy armour since all the payload went into raw explosive rather than anything regarding penetration.

PS: The rest of you, duck.  Oh, and do girlyscreams.

[Lisky]

i just had some inspiration on how we could solve the whole trust issue, get him out of his armor, and keep him unstuned

so, my understanding of ion weapons is that they are somewhat heated, but also overload electronics... seeing as Morgan carries an ion weapon, he could temporarily shutdown darkshine's systems, by firing an ion pulse into the reactive section of armor. Those areas are networked with the whole armor, meaning the whole system would be overloaded until it restarted, so, given the AI time to recover, it'd give the team at least a minute or 2 to get the armor off, while keeping him awake... now there's the problem of clothing afterwards, but i guess we can solve that when we get there

[Tapewolf]

By 'neutral party', is Exo's inner narrator referring to Darkshine, or the rebels?  (Use of plural in "intruders detected") makes this a little unclear...

As for ion weapons, I'm not sure anyone's made a practical one yet, so its electrical characteristics are kind of up in the air.

[Lisky]

true, but seeing as a cluster of ions either carry a massive positive or negative charge depending on the type of ion (anion or cation) either would at least temporarily damage anything electronic the cluster came into contact with (think an electromagnet next to a computer) it's going to distort the usual electromagnetic fields that the system is designed to operate under... and the suit darkshine is wearing is heavily computerized
now, i'm no master on particle physics, but i've got a fairly solid grasp of the concepts involved

[Arcalane]

By 'neutral party', is Exo's inner narrator referring to Darkshine, or the rebels?  (Use of plural in "intruders detected") makes this a little unclear...

The former. The plurality is merely to make the act more convincing.

[Tapewolf]

The former. The plurality is merely to make the act more convincing.

Thanks, that gives me a better idea how Dorcan should react.

[Azlan]

The problem is that this weapon is primarily designed to damage, not disrupt electrical systems.  That comes as a secondary effect if the target survives the shot.  

The weapon uses a electromagnetic containment chamber and an magnetostriction system to form a positive charged bolt of extreme density.  This allows for the accumulation of large quantities of ionized atoms, and to pack them in an fairly dense form in the main chamber of the barrel.   The bolt is then easily accelerated along the barrel of the weapon, which is a simple, highly efficient LINAC.  Thanks to an excellent electric charge/mass ratio, it can attain high velocities in relatively short barrels.

It will have a secondary effect of damage to electrical systems, but it will primarily cause damage, lots of damage.

[Lisky]

yep, which is why a shot to the chest plate was going to be my idea, survivable for darkshine, and it shuts down his armor while the AI restarts all the systems

[Azlan]

yep, which is why a shot to the chest plate was going to be my idea, survivable for darkshine, and it shuts down his armor while the AI restarts all the systems

You are missing the point, high velocity particle acceleration...

[Lisky]

right, and he's wearing reactive armor that spreads a massive force out over a huge area (more or less the entire body) so yes, i get your point, and yes, it'll probably put the armor out of commission for quite some time until he gets to repair it, but the initial shock would be survivable

Edit: though in retrospect, probably a bad idea, since getting shot by strangers who could very well lie about the output of their weapons isn't something i'd be willing to do

[Azlan]

Yes well, even if you are using NERA or NxRA... or even ERA, reactive armour is designed against matter projectiles (i.e. shaped charges, rod penetrators, etc.).  The design does not accommodate energy weapons, as those are still outside our reach in real life (at least practical vehicle mounted varieties).  Explosive Reactive armour essentially detonates outward to damage the penetrator.

From the ERA manual of the Israeli M60A1: the moving plates change the effective velocity and angle of impact of the shaped charge jet, reducing the angle of incidence and increasing the effective jet velocity versus the plate element. Second, since the plates are angled compared to the usual impact direction of shaped charge warheads, as the plates move outwards the impact point on the plate moves over time, requiring the jet to cut through fresh plate material. This second effect increases the effective plate thickness during the impact significantly.

NERA and NxRA (non-energetic and non-explosive reactive armour) rely on an kinetic energy dissipating inert layer and armor plate bulging to alter the angle of the projectile.

There is also electric reactive armour which works similar to Explosive Reactive Armour, except instead of an explosive charge it relies on discharging an energy capacitor to vaporize the projectile.

These concepts are not highly effective against directed energy weapons such as lasers, particle beams, ion cannons, and such.   

[Lisky]

the concept of the reactive armor i'm talking about is more a material science experiment currently.

Take layers of special engineered material that hardens when an electric current is passed through it, then laminate it with layers of conductive fibers, and insulation, when given an impact, it compresses the entire laminate, causing less distance between the conductive layers, when the conductive material is close enough to generate a full current, it flash hardens the reactive material, as it hardens, more material gets compressed because of the hardening, and thus the force is spread out over a larger area... pretty neat stuff really, though currently in real life, very expensive, and overly sensitive...

Edit:  The real problem is finding an elastic material that can brake the current once the circuit is complete, rubber sort of works, but it's a little too much of an insulator, nylon has been used with fair success from what i've heard...  Regardless of real life, if you take the level of technology involved here in the RP, i'm pretty sure a new man-made material could be found to fill the niche of what is required to make the concept work as an efficient form of protection

Edit part 2: now, i know i didn't mention anything like an ablative coating, or any other form of energy weapon based protection, but, the setup should trigger the hardening when some insulation gets melted by high heat too... if that happens i guess i'd need to use the AI to turn off the circuit manually though, seeing as it would be debilitating to his movement if a section of his armor were permanently hardened

[Ryudo Lee]

What Azlan is describing would possibly penetrate such armor, even in a minimal fashion.  You are going to take damage from such a weapon.  Remember that no armor is 100% protective.  There are ways around everything.  Even EXO can be taken down with the right amount of firepower.

And FYI, I'm not going to go through the old "My weapon can do this!  But my armor protects against it!  And my weapon does this too!  But my armor protects against that too!" situation.  So please, keep in mind that everyone should have some sort of weakness.

[Lisky]

yea, i get what your saying and agree the argument could go on forever, i was just suggesting a hit to the breast plate because although probably ruining a good deal of functionality to the armor itself, it'd probably be survive... and probably is the key word... also if we took that route and he himself suggests it, it would give darkshine a chance to get to a safehouse that his usual team operates out of, either that, or it'd give the rebel techs a chance to see something new, that, although probably not balancing tipping, could provide an edge if combine with other technologies they have available. 
Also it has the added bonus of building trust on both sides, so it'd help diffuse the situation at hand, provides an excuse to take him to HQ, and assuming i play his cards right, integrate with the team once his armor is back up to combat capable conditions

[Tapewolf]

A note about removing the pins:

I wasn't sure whether to add this to the narration or not, but Dorcan's fur isn't particularly conductive.  A high-tension supply would not be good, but something like household current is fine.  He does have conductive finger-pads (since some touch-screen displays require a conductive finger) but they're electrically isolated from the rest of him, so he should be fine.

[Lisky]

he should be fine, the pins are higher voltage, as in 220 volts, which is the standard voltage throughout the entire suit.  Enough so that the reactive portions can activate, and the strength enhancing effects of some of the mesh working, but a low enough voltage that a suitable insulator can keep the reactive portions current free.

[Tapewolf]

he should be fine, the pins are higher voltage, as in 220 volts, which is the standard voltage throughout the entire suit.

Yeah.  I was thinking 240v when I said "household current" - blame it on a sudden attack of ethnocentricity.

[Lisky]

haha, either really works, i guess "household standard high voltage" would work just as well as exact numbers

the one thing i was thinking, assuming it's ok with people, is darkshine's rifle, or more specifically the ammo... as a armor penetration aid, the rifle is set to 3 round burst, 30 rounds in a clip, so 10 bursts...  each burst consists of 3 rounds, designed to maximize the lethal punch  of the 3rd round against armored individuals... so, the first in the burst sequence is a high explosive round, in essence a micro grenade, it probably won't kill someone, but will shatter ceramics, and dent metal plates.  Then comes a high heat, something like thermite, this round's goal is to melt or expand fiber based armor (kevlar) or soften the metal in plate armor, the third round is a tungsten core solid slug, and meant to do the real damage...
so the idea is based on current technology, but applied in a new way

[Arcalane]

I didn't think they made recoil compensators that allow weapons to do that kind of thing.

[Lisky]

actually, it all depends on the weapon, take the MG42 from WWII for example, it had a high enough rate of fire, that in bursts, you'd get off 3-5 rounds before the recoil actually took effect, it only happens if you get 1400+ Rounds Per Minute, but at the same time, fairly easily doable if the weapon is designed for 3 round burst only. 

The idea was something that the West Germans experimented with, but dropped because of the "need" for fully automatic weapons during  the cold war.  Then, after the fall of the soviet union, the "need" for precision weapons on the modern battlefield along with the need to stick to 1 ammo type throughout nato led to more setbacks...

One downside is that if the weapon isn't heavy enough, after the burst, it becomes uncontrollable from the compounded recoil... If kept in burst though, it'd have a nasty kick when the recoil hit, but your rounds would already be on target. So combine the high ROF burst rifle with an oil spring in the stock of the weapon, and you've got a nasty weapon for covert-ops... and despite all it's advantages, the largest and most obvious problem for a weapon like that, is that the weapon would be custom, from the ground up, making it ungodly expensive unless you either are or know a gunsmith.

[Azlan]

I would agree to something like that if ammunition was so ridiculously expensive all your funds had to be dedicated to buying it and the weapon's upkeep.  Thereby making you an utter pauper, but with a shiny gun.  Or even better, you were dependent on another NPC to manufacture it, an NPC that hates you with a passion.

Honestly, after over 20 years of gaming you would think that people would stop using the same cheat.  "Oh, here's all these advantages... oh, but to balance it the weapon is so custom and ungodly expensive!" 

Why can't anyone come up with more story driven complications?  Morgan had to be specially augmented to fire his unit's sniper class weapon, cybernetics and all.  It also has such an unusual caliber and very few employ it, making it reasonably easy to trace it back to him or his former organization (and gives him a rather unique calling card).

Yes, the weapon is good for us... but its stacked, unless I'm missing something here?   

[techmaster-glitch]

For me, after coming up with a character concept I like, I follow a simple rule in keeping the character balanced:

The more 'powerful" or "skilled" the character is, the bigger an Achille's Heel weakness he has. Basically, I try to keep the character's strengths proportional to weaknesses, adjusted for the specific setting.

[Lisky]

not actually stacked, it's basically his signature, and it's meant to increase, not guarantee, his chance of penetrating armor, some other big disadvantages are that he has to fire in 3 round burst, meaning basically 10 shots per clip, when he's using that setup.  Another thing is that if he's sniping, he can't use 3 round burst, as it's too inaccurate for anything beyond 300 or so yards, even with the high ROF... 

a couple other dis-advantages, the high ROF tends to cause jamming more often because a cartridge casing gets caught in the slide fairly easily when spewing out casing at that high a rate.  It's a more delicate rifle, so, he's more cautions when using it, and it's going to have other problems if he doesn't keep it constantly maintained, (i'm going to add a story behind why he keeps it so well maintained later) and it's not going to be used as a melee weapon.

It's a longer rifle since it's multi-purpose, 32inches, and he's going to have a tendency to use his pistols indoors because of that. 

The whole idea behind the ammunition setup was a, "oh crap, i'm dealing with other mercs with specialized gear and heavy armor, i'd better get in range and switch over to that setup i made to maximize armor penetration" he's not going to do something like that standard, say he carries 8 spare magazines, 1 or 2 of them would be the special setup, marked with red tape across the mid-section, 2 would be steel core,armor piercing only marked with green tape , and 4-5 mags would standard lead... so, it's more like carrying specialized grenades for a launcher, like the M203, than a "i can kill everything" kinda setup...

as for the weaknesses of darkshine himself, compared to the rest of the team, he's pretty fragile, but he's extremely fast, and agile to make of for it... he isn't going toe to toe in a slug it out gunfight, he's going to find cover, move to a flank, or behind, and take a pop shot from where his target can't really shoot back.  His armor is meant to provide a little protection while he moves from cover to cover, not let him survive an extended firefight in the open

and let's not forget, he's wearing a well protected bomb on his back too

[Ryudo Lee]

I'm going to step in on this special ammo issue.  Weapons that have these special setups are going to have a severely limited amount of ammo, due to so few manufacturers making non-standard rounds.  To combat this, these weapons should be able to fire standard rounds, and regardless of the caliber, standard rounds would be much easier to get.

I can go with the slug, and maybe the high heat round if you change the substance away from thermite, but the explosive round seems a little bit outlandish.  Unless you can provide me with a real-world example of an explosive bullet, then I'm gonna have to bring down the "GM said no" hammer on that one.

[Lisky]

fair game, the first round could be something like a solid tungsten sabot, so it's concentrating a huge force in a smaller area than a standard slug, it's more the idea of cracking or shattering ceramic armor.  As for the high heat, something like white phosphorous would work, the idea is just something that is hot enough that either softens metal plates to a degree, or melts/expands fiber based armor so that the third round in the sequence gets to the person, and isn't stopped by the armor

and it's more of a "nasty suprise in case things go horribly wrong" setup, darkshine relies on standard issue rounds far more than the speical stuff, he just has it with him... quoting AVP "think of it kinda like a condom. I'd rather have it, and not need it, then need it, and not have it"

[Ryudo Lee]

White phosphorous works for me, unless anyone else has an objection to that.