12/05/09 [Xmas #2] - Sorry, Virginia...

[Chakat Blackspots]

@Mao Laoren, yes.  It corrents my assumptions and answers my questions.  I should learn to hold my tongue sometimes.

[inuhanyo]

I dislike this thread, but only because this holiday was designed originally to trample another holiday.  I wish folks would stop trying to ruin the Winter Solstice celebrations.

Go ahead and celebrate Winter Solstice. It's December 21 this year.

As it has, and will, for many years.  Remaining in sync with the seasons was one of the design criteria of the Gregorian Calendar.   The Japanese were sufficiently impressed with it, so that they abandoned the Chinese Lunar Calendar that they had been using (updated whenever they were in contact with China).

[Mao]

@Mao Laoren, yes.  It corrents my assumptions and answers my questions.  I should learn to hold my tongue sometimes.

Nah, don't worry about stuff like that.  If you don't speak your mind and honestly voice your thoughts and opinions none of us will grow or learn more about one another.

I am really offended by the claim that Christmass "trampled" another holiday, when it was actually a preservation of the Pagan tradition adjusted to be compatible with Christianity... The proto-Catholic Church created the Christmas celebration so Christians could join the Winter Solstice celebrations while remaining true to Christ. Once the Church outnumbered the Pagans, it was a way for the non-converts to keep their traditions mostly intact while still following the new faith. Evangelism without compulsion is not wrong. Spanish-style inquisitions on the other hand, are.

*kicks soapbox out from under himself to prevent further ramblings*

First:  Might want to gear down there, as that comment was meant as an attempt to make a point concerning how asinine it was to be offended about Santa stealing the show from Christ.  Especially when one considers that, from your own post, Christ stole the show from someone/something else.


Also, your statement is rife with problems:

1- "non-converts to keep their traditions in tact while still following the new faith"?

     If I were to read that as it is, it's essentially saying "Alright, you don't want to believe what we say, but you still have to do it our way."

2- "when it was actually a preservation of the Pagan tradition adjusted to be compatible with Christianity..."

    Then it's not a preservation at all.  If you're adjusting it to be in your view, you're changing it.  That's the exact opposite of preserving it.

3- "Evangelism without compulsion is not wrong."
    Except, if I'm taking what you're saying as fact (though you've not provided any sources), then there is a compulsion there.  "Your holiday is now a christian one too, but since we outnumber you, we're doing it our way and you will too."

4- " Once the Church outnumbered the Pagans, it was a way for the non-converts to keep their traditions mostly intact while still following the new faith."
     The holiday *was* trampled by your own words because the pagans were outnumbered.

Edit: Minor grammar, spelling and punctuation fixes.

[inuhanyo]

In a lot of those cultures, if the leader converted then everyone else did too.  But the conversions were shallow for generations. 

Establishing a Christian holiday to substitute for an existing holiday allowed the converts to keep some of their traditions and ease the switch.  Though, arguably, All Saints Day didn't succeed.

[Ted Schiller]

(snip)  Though, arguably, All Saints Day didn't succeed.

On the other hand, All Hallows' Eve is doing quite well. 

With regards,
Ted