Amber and the monitor

[Netrogo]

Just a heads up, there were three different monitors up in the free section of craigslist for your area at the time I'm posting this.  Also I have a few sitting around the apartment that nobody's using, everyone upgraded to panels and we're all too lazy to throw anything out.

Either way, give a bit of a search and old monitors are everywhere. Classified sites like craigslist, and kijiji are generally full of the things. Most usually pretty functional, and you can atleast get people to show you the thing working before you take it unlike some things.

Best of luck Amber, and should you want one of my monitors just drop me a pm.

[Tapewolf]

I knew I'd forgotten something.  Yes, there are a ton of second-hand CRT monitors going around.  On ebay, the ones I've seen are pretty cheap, the delivery being the awkward part.  Mostly simply won't offer delivery, and the ones that do charge the Earth (surprise surprise!).
When one of my monitors next craps out I may have to make some difficult decisions.

[Netrogo]

How much does it generally cost to mail a monitor anyways Tape? I've never really mailed anything bigger then a pound or two.

[Tapewolf]

How much does it generally cost to mail a monitor anyways Tape? I've never really mailed anything bigger then a pound or two.

The going (shipping) rate here on ebay seems to be around £25-£35, which isn't so bad all things considered.  I don't know how much it would be in the US/Canada (probably less) - but I seem to recall the shipping being around the £30-£40 mark when getting the A807 delivered (and that was about 35kg).

[jeffh4]

Your craigslist idea is great, but here are a few more.

- Put a "wanted" ad in your local Craigslist for a free monitor if there isn't one close enough.
- Many thrift stores have a few CRT monitors avaiable for cheap.
- It's Friday. Hit the garage sales!

[Mao]

I've got a flat screen monitor with a nice view angle on it that I'm not using if she needs it.  I can't see much colour shift (if any, though I'll be the first to say that my eyes may not be as discerning as others) on it when I look at it from different angles.  Though shipping from my area to hers might be a pain.

[GabrielsThoughts]

I don't know I prefer a flat Liquid Crystal Display or laptop monitor to a bubbled out Cathode Ray Tube... I noticed the LCD isn't as bad on the eyes, and takes up less space. although they have the new flatscreen LED monitors, which are supposed to be really good.

EDIT: CRT monitors are things of the past Amber, you need to keep moving forward.

[Dekari]

Two LCD's (if you do end up going that way) I would highly recommend....

The ACER 22" Widescreen and the ACER 19" Widescreen.  I've used both (I own the 19" and my brother owns the 22") and see no color shift from any angle.  Both have a viewing angle of 170°(H) / 160°(V), can support a max resolution of 1680 x 1050, contrast ratio of 2000:1 (19") or 2500:1 (22"), and best of all they are inexpensive ($120 for the 19" and $160 for the 22", but there will probably be an extra $10-$20 shipping).


But yeah, like Gabriel said, CRT's are going away.  I think it's time to upgrade  .

[Tapewolf]

But yeah, like Gabriel said, CRT's are going away.  I think it's time to upgrade  .

There is a fallacy that newer is always better.  Sometimes it is, but if you can show me an LCD that has (A) a decent range of colours (B) contrast and (C) looks the same from a wide set of angles, I'd be a happy man indeed.  See also my reply to Gabriel later on.

I don't know I prefer a flat Liquid Crystal Display or laptop monitor to a bubbled out Cathode Ray Tube... I noticed the LCD isn't as bad on the eyes, and takes up less space.

I'm not sure what you mean there.  Laptop displays are LCDs.

CRT monitors are things of the past Amber, you need to keep moving forward.

My understanding is that she did.  The problem was the LCD monitor she had was not usable for colouring, so she went back to an older technology that worked.

LCD is more convenient than a CRT, no argument there.  But, like cassette tape replacing the reel-to-reel, the actual quality it gives you is noticeably worse.  Remember, they still make vacuum tubes, because there are some things which transistors can't easily replace (high power transmitters, for example.  And your microwave oven is powered by one.)

Also, remember that everyone has a slightly different requirement.  What works for you may not work for Amber, and vice-versa.  Saying "get with the times" isn't helpful in any way if the replacement technology cannot do what she requires.

That said, there are supposedly more expensive LCD monitors for film and suchlike which are able to reproduce a wider colour gamut.  If I had to get an LCD I might look at one of those (Viewsonic make some nice ones I think) but I'm not sure Amber has that luxury.  And the main problem I have with LCDs is the atrocious contrast (or lack thereof) and AFAIK that is inherent in the technology.  I'm desperately waiting for LCD to just go away and be replaced by something better.  Which brings us to...

although they have the new flatscreen LED monitors, which are supposed to be really good.

They are liable to have much better colour reproduction when they're new.  Certainly I'll be looking at them with interest when they reach a sensible price bracket.
However, I have not heard that they've yet fixed the problem of the blue LEDs dying young, with a half-life of 18 months or so.  In a comic that is liable to cause colour shifts for you within the space of a quarter  

If they do crack that, I'd certainly love to jump straight from CRT to OLED.

[Dekari]

But yeah, like Gabriel said, CRT's are going away.  I think it's time to upgrade  .

There is a fallacy that newer is always better.  Sometimes it is, but if you can show me an LCD that has (A) a decent range of colours (B) contrast and (C) looks the same from a wide set of angles, I'd be a happy man indeed.  

ASUS 23" Widescreen 1080p full HD maybe?

Though the two I linked to have a near 180 viewing angle horizontal and vertical.  This one is only 160 in both directions.

[Tapewolf]

ASUS 23" Widescreen 1080p full HD maybe?

I'd have to see it working.  I'll add it to my list of possibles, though.  On paper it looks pretty good.

Another pitfall of LCD monitors is that a lot of them are now using 6-bits/channel to cut costs.
This means that they can only display 262144 colours instead of the full 16.7m.  Your ASUS appears to be using an 8 bits/channel system, so it should be okay.  But it's another thing to be wary of if you're using the monitor for still or video work rather than to play games or write documents on  

[Dekari]

ASUS 23" Widescreen 1080p full HD maybe?

I'd have to see it working.  I'll add it to my list of possibles, though.  On paper it looks pretty good.

Another pitfall of LCD monitors is that a lot of them are now using 6-bits/channel to cut costs.
This means that they can only display 262144 colours instead of the full 16.7m.  Your ASUS appears to be using an 8 bits/channel system, so it should be okay.  But it's another thing to be wary of if you're using the monitor for still or video work rather than to play games or write documents on  

Interesting, I was not aware of that.  I'll have to keep that in mind from now on.

[ChaosMageX]

Amber, I also have two fully functional CRT monitors in my closet gathering dust when I switched to flat screen...and now that I'm using laptops, I also two flat panel monitors in my closet, also gathering dust.
So yeah, there are lots of monitors out there.

But yeah, like Gabriel said, CRT's are going away.  I think it's time to upgrade  .

There is a fallacy that newer is always better.  Sometimes it is, but if you can show me an LCD that has (A) a decent range of colours (B) contrast and (C) looks the same from a wide set of angles, I'd be a happy man indeed.  See also my reply to Gabriel later on.

But...but...what about the Cintiq 21UX?  I'm sure that would have to have all those things or there would be a lot of pissed off extremely starving (after blowing the 2 Gs to get it) artists out there.

[Dekari]

Going on what Tape has said, I did a little searching and found an interesting article I'd like to share.

LCD Color: 8-bit vs. 6-bit

How to Tell if an LCD is 8-Bit or 6-Bit

This is the biggest problem for individuals who are looking at purchasing an LCD monitor. Most manufacturers do not list the color depth of their display. Even fewer will list the actual per-color depth. If the manufacturer lists the color as 16.7 million colors, it should be assumed that the display is 8-bit per-color. If the colors are listed as being 16.2 million or 16 million, consumers should assume that it uses a 6-bit per-color depth. If no color depth is listed, it should be assumed that monitors of 12ms or faster will be 6-bit and the 20ms and slower panels are 8-bit.

The entire artical is a good read if you have five mins.


Edit: Also Tape, I did some more looking and the two ACER's I linked are in fact 8-bit color depth (or atleast most people are say it is when calibrated properly).  Rather surprising considering the price.

[ChaosMageX]

Going on what Tape has said, I did a little searching and found an interesting article I'd like to share.

LCD Color: 8-bit vs. 6-bit

If color depth is really that important, then is it really not a good idea to use an HD television as a computer monitor?

[Zedd]

Maybe she can ask Dr. Hax for a new monitor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0OZXnkfJB0

[Tapewolf]

But...but...what about the Cintiq 21UX?  I'm sure that would have to have all those things or there would be a lot of pissed off extremely starving (after blowing the 2 Gs to get it) artists out there.

Well, forgive my cynicism, but I'd be extremely suspicious of the fact that it has no performance figures for the monitor section whatsoever, let alone reassurances that it's using a full 8-bit (or 10-bit!) interface.
The even more cynical part of me might say that since they don't have much in the way of competition (that I'm aware of) for that class of device, they could probably use a cheap and tacky display and people would still lap it up

I imagine that if it's in your lap or on your desk and you're staring down at it it's probably going to relieve a lot of the angle problems, but at the end of the day I wouldn't trust it for video editing or shading unless I'd played about with it for a bit.  

For drawing line-art, colour consistency isn't a major issue - even if it did have a cack display section it would still be a dead useful tool for working out the lines if you used it as a second monitor to the OS, and you could then use a proper monitor to do the shading.

The Dell LCD I use at work is better than most LCD monitors I've seen but I still can't use it to shade highlights (during lunch, honest!), or if I do, I have to redo them at home later.  The underlying problem is that an LCD monitor works by shining light through an LCD matrix rather than generating its own light like an OLED, Plasma or CRT display.  That makes it very, very difficult to get black out of the thing because the backlight will tend to diffuse.
That and there seems to be a pervading culture of "Make it cheap, not good", but perhaps I'm just being too cynical here.

Either that or my problem is that I'm not as willing to accept compromises...

**EDIT**

If color depth is really that important, then is it really not a good idea to use an HD television as a computer monitor?

I'd have to check, but I've not yet seen one that would fit on my desk.  No idea about Amber's setup.

[Naldru]

One requirement that hasn't been mentioned is whether the connection would be VGA or DVI.

I would also like to mention that LCD displays have been improving significantly each year.  If her last experience with LCD's was a few years ago, it might be worth another look.

I know that there are a number of Photoshop magazines.  It might be interesting to see if any of them have reviews of displays.

Change (even to another CRT monitor) is scary and disruptive.  Don't assume that a new CRT monitors would be better would be better than an LCD monitor.  As technology changes, even with CRT monitors, it doesn't always make them more suitable for every purpose.

[Tapewolf]

I would also like to mention that LCD displays have been improving significantly each year.  If her last experience with LCD's was a few years ago, it might be worth another look.

This is true.  It is likely that they will catch up, I'm just not convinced that has happened yet, especially for Amber's budget.

I know that there are a number of Photoshop magazines.  It might be interesting to see if any of them have reviews of displays.

That is a good idea.

Change (even to another CRT monitor) is scary and disruptive.  Don't assume that a new CRT monitors would be better would be better than an LCD monitor.  As technology changes, even with CRT monitors, it doesn't always make them more suitable for every purpose.

Indeed.  It should be noted that I don't fear change for the sake of change.  I'm about to upgrade to Snow Leopard, for heaven's sake 
However, with this sort of change it's a matter of weighing up the pros and cons.  And for the LCD monitors I've seen and used so far, the cons are unfortunately winning.

[ChaosMageX]

Another thing worth noting:

Do the newer plasma displays emit beta particles like CRT monitors do?

[Dekari]

But...but...what about the Cintiq 21UX?  I'm sure that would have to have all those things or there would be a lot of pissed off extremely starving (after blowing the 2 Gs to get it) artists out there.

Actually if you have $2k to drop on a display, just get this.

You know, I can't even think of 1billion colors.

[Tezkat]

I don't know I prefer a flat Liquid Crystal Display or laptop monitor to a bubbled out Cathode Ray Tube... I noticed the LCD isn't as bad on the eyes, and takes up less space. although they have the new flatscreen LED monitors, which are supposed to be really good.

LEDs in computer monitors are usually for backlighting (instead of CCFL tubes). They still use LCDs.

My tablet PC has an AFFS-based LCD screen with LED backlighting. The display is very crisp. The colours are gorgeous and never distort even at extreme viewing angles. I haven't owned it long enough to see any aging effects, though.

But yeah, like Gabriel said, CRT's are going away.  I think it's time to upgrade  .

There is a fallacy that newer is always better.  Sometimes it is, but if you can show me an LCD that has (A) a decent range of colours (B) contrast and (C) looks the same from a wide set of angles, I'd be a happy man indeed.  See also my reply to Gabriel later on.

The main problem is that good CRT monitors are increasingly difficult to find these days, and they're almost impossible to service. If you remain married to CRTs, you're likely to find yourself rotating through used displays in various states of disrepair.

Many high-end monitors can reproduce colour gamuts wider than full NTSC, are quite sharp, and have negligible off-axis distortion. The professional graphics market moved away from CRTs years ago. I personally held out for a long time after LCD monitors became popular, because my old Mitsubishi and Sony aperture grille CRTs were just so much prettier. But I made the switch some years ago and haven't looked back.

But...but...what about the Cintiq 21UX?  I'm sure that would have to have all those things or there would be a lot of pissed off extremely starving (after blowing the 2 Gs to get it) artists out there.

Well, forgive my cynicism, but I'd be extremely suspicious of the fact that it has no performance figures for the monitor section whatsoever, let alone reassurances that it's using a full 8-bit (or 10-bit!) interface.
The even more cynical part of me might say that since they don't have much in the way of competition (that I'm aware of) for that class of device, they could probably use a cheap and tacky display and people would still lap it up

All of the Cintiqs use S-IPS panels. Very pretty colours. Wide viewing angles. Don't expect to do any gaming on a Cintiq, though. They have horrible response time.

The class of customers that fork out $2000 for a device which really has no use other than in colour-critical graphics applications generally don't put up with cheap LCD panels. Indeed, a lot of them are perfectly willing to return products if they can't get the colour temperatures just right...


The question of whether or not to shell out for a Cintiq depends entirely on workflow, however. Amber currently sketches and inks on paper. She would have to get used to an all-digital process to make the tablet a worthwhile investment. To say nothing of the fact that her roughs are often worth a bit of money at auction.

Personally, I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to inking on paper. Pure digital is the way to go, baby!

That and there seems to be a pervading culture of "Make it cheap, not good", but perhaps I'm just being too cynical here.

Either that or my problem is that I'm not as willing to accept compromises...

You can still have "good". You just have to pay for it, seeing as how it's the opposite of "cheap".

I would shy away from the cheaper, TN-based screens for colour-critical work. TN screens are optimized to look nice in fast computer games, not Photoshop. Unfortunately, non-TN screens are quite rare in sub-24" format. (Dell recently released a 22" e-IPS display, but I can't think of any others off hand.) And the pretty 24"+ monitors are on the pricey side (C$800+ including taxes). But Amber is, for all practical purposes, a professional artist, so it's not as if the investment would be unjustified.

Time for another wallpaper war, perhaps?

[Tapewolf]

The main problem is that good CRT monitors are increasingly difficult to find these days, and they're almost impossible to service. If you remain married to CRTs, you're likely to find yourself rotating through used displays in various states of disrepair.

Yep.  That's where I am at the moment.  The next time one dies I'll have a choice of either trying to get an acceptable LCD monitor (hence my taking notes of good-looking devices) or I'll have to try and get a second-hand CRT.  I'm kind of hoping that they'll last long enough for OLED monitors to become affordable, but with the XEL-1 still at $4000USD, I'm not sure they'll last that long.

[Netrogo]

Well since everyone in this thread knows more about monitors then I do XD

The monitor I have here I figured I'd pass to Amber, if she want's one of mine, is an LG Trinitron 775ft

[Tapewolf]

The monitor I have here I figured I'd pass to Amber, if she want's one of mine, is an LG Trinitron 775ft

If what I've found on Google is correct, at 1280x1024 it will only go up to 60hz, but apart from that it looks like a nice machine.

[Netrogo]

Certainly was when I used it. Should probably go hook it up and make sure sitting around hasn't worn it down though. We haven't had a CRT monitor hooked up in the apartment in a little over a year now >.>

[Tapewolf]

Do the newer plasma displays emit beta particles like CRT monitors do?

Interesting question.  I dunno about beta particles, but CRTs do emit small amounts of bremsstrahlung radiation in the form of X-rays, I think.  CRTs do work by accelerating electrons, but I don't think they reach the energy level of beta particles.

I don't know what plasma displays emit (if anything interesting), but I do know that fluorescent lighting and white LEDs (used as backlighting in LCD monitors) emit ultraviolet light.

IIRC they use UV photons to pump the phosphor with energy which is then emitted at a lower energy level, providing the visible light, presumably it emits photons of many different energy levels in order to get a roughly white mix of colour.  It's been a while since I've done that kind of quantum physics, though...

**EDIT**
I think SED displays also emit X-rays.

[ChaosMageX]

Do the newer plasma displays emit beta particles like CRT monitors do?

Interesting question.  I dunno about beta particles, but CRTs do emit small amounts of bremsstrahlung radiation in the form of X-rays, I think.  CRTs do work by accelerating electrons, but I don't think they reach the energy level of beta particles.

I don't know what plasma displays emit (if anything interesting), but I do know that fluorescent lighting and white LEDs (used as backlighting in LCD monitors) emit ultraviolet light.

IIRC they use UV photons to pump the phosphor with energy which is then emitted at a lower energy level, providing the visible light, presumably it emits photons of many different energy levels in order to get a roughly white mix of colour.  It's been a while since I've done that kind of quantum physics, though...

**EDIT**
I think SED displays also emit X-rays.

So, no matter what display you sit in front of, you'll probably end up getting skin cancer.  It'll just take a lot longer with LCD displays than with CRT displays.

Also, it's cool that you're about to upgrade to Mac OS X Snow Leopard, as I am about to upgrade to Windows 7.  It will be so much better than Vista.

[Tapewolf]

So, no matter what display you sit in front of, you'll probably end up getting skin cancer.  It'll just take a lot longer with LCD displays than with CRT displays.

CRT displays have been in use since the 30s.  I think we'd probably know by now if they were that bad.  You'll probably get more bad stuff by going outside during the day.

Also, it's cool that you're about to upgrade to Mac OS X Snow Leopard, as I am about to upgrade to Windows 7.  It will be so much better than Vista.

I'm contemplating getting that too, just in case.  There are finally a few things that would be nice to have that W2K can't do, but what concerns me is its dependency on connecting to Microsoft in order to operate, and the fact that like XP it will probably explode if I change any hardware.

Better than Vista it is, but if it wasn't for the fact that they're doing a steep discount, I wouldn't even consider it at all.
The RC version worked for a bit and wasn't bad, but now it's decided to sulk because I wouldn't let it activate, and it's just sitting there playing dead.  I might try the SMS activation or something one of these days, but so far I can't be bothered  

[Lucheek]

I'm not sure about this, but can't you plug your computer's input cords into a normal TV and use the TV as a monitor?