D&D 4th Edition: The Return of the Topic

[Rakala]

Since I want to play RPGA events, I have been updating my cache of 4.0 books as we go. I recently got the Player's Handbook 2. With the release of that 4th edition is starting to grow on me. The thing I liked in 3.5 was how customizable the classes were. Well, now the classes don't have much customization but with this most recent release, you may not to be able to deviate far from the classes role, but now they have almost everything covered. It brings back the barbarian, bard, druid, and the sorcerer (all with a slightly new flavor) as well as a few new classes as well as the "primal" power source.

The Avenger, a divine striker who relentlessly assaults foes in the name of his god.
The Invoker, a divine controller, who casts nothing but offensive magic.
The Shaman, a primal leader who calls spirit animals to assist allies.
The Warden, a primal defender who can transform into different aspects of nature.

There are also a few new races as well as the half-orc and gnome make their returns as well. Honestly I'm starting to enjoy 4th edition for all it's add ons. It's becoming more and more a fantasy world than 3.5 due to the massive amounts of races and new classes which most of the time in missions at least one of the new races in either of the books will appear. In fact with most of these additions the game seems mostly complete now.

[Azlan]

There are some things I liked about 3.5 that are not available in 4.0, but overall I can say that it is simple enough to be playable once you get used to it.  For me, time will only tell.

[ShadesFox]

I've never had the chance to play 4th so far.  The one group I run with now is using 3.5 (especially since that is what we started with) and so far there does not seem to be any want to change that.  I do rather want to try it out for the sake of completeness though.

[Rakala]

Well, now that I've played a few sessions I enjoy it. Really the rules are based around combat because that is what most arguments were about between players. In all I think it added a few important things, but it also took away a few things. Really I think everybody who likes D&D should at least give it a chance before writing it off as bad. As long as you play a few sessions I don't care what you think. If you make your opinion out of ignorance then you need to shut your effing mouth. I have played a few RPGA sessions with good DMs, so I have had a good time.

[Reese Tora]

Well, I played a few sessions of 4th a while back, and I have to say...

it's not a bad game, but it's not as good as 3rd/3.5
(and, before anyone suggests that I am just resistant to change, I should note that I played 2nd for a few years before 3rd came out, and I welcomed the changes; they made sense and improved the game immensely; I didn't like all the changes when 3.5 came out, but they made sense.  I do not like the changes in 4th edition because most of them neither added to the game nor made sense)

One of my bigger gripes has to do with the combat rules, which allow for an attack that is a ranged attack with a physical object but ignores any ability to avoid a physical attack because it's /poisoned/ (I might expect something like that in a home brew, but I'm speaking specifically about an official module containing that!)

[Rakala]

Well, normally the poison would attack against fortitude while the weapon would attack AC.

[Yugo]

Physical ranged attacks from monsters that are poisoned almost always attack AC. For example, a yuan-ti archer shoots at you with his poisoned arrow. It's going to go up against your AC, and if it hits, it does 5 ongoing poison (as an example). Only spells and abilities with special effects attack other defenses.

[lucas marcone]

my biggest gripes are the fact that i appearntly cant make a monster character such as a gnoll, the monseter manuel telles nothing of the basic "personality" and neuances of each race, and it's HELL converting regular characters from 3.5 to 4 let alone the monster ones. my friends and i may just take some of the things we like in 4 and bring them into 3.5.

[Tezkat]

You should be able to turn most MM statblocks into a PC race fairly easily. Gnolls are already playable (with racial traits listed at the back of the new MM), and there's a recent Dragon magazine article with more detailed flavour info, racial feats, and whatnot.

I enjoy playing gnolls. Got an awesome voice for them, too. For some reason, snacking on the halflings seems to upset people, though.

[Reese Tora]

Physical ranged attacks from monsters that are poisoned almost always attack AC. For example, a yuan-ti archer shoots at you with his poisoned arrow. It's going to go up against your AC, and if it hits, it does 5 ongoing poison (as an example). Only spells and abilities with special effects attack other defenses.

Well, I'm not the one that wrote an official module with a kobold throwing a poison'd dart that attacked the fortitude save... and I find it objectionable that I would take poison damage without having a chance for a fortitude save to stop or reduce it.

[lucas marcone]

Physical ranged attacks from monsters that are poisoned almost always attack AC. For example, a yuan-ti archer shoots at you with his poisoned arrow. It's going to go up against your AC, and if it hits, it does 5 ongoing poison (as an example). Only spells and abilities with special effects attack other defenses.

Well, I'm not the one that wrote an official module with a kobold throwing a poison'd dart that attacked the fortitude save... and I find it objectionable that I would take poison damage without having a chance for a fortitude save to stop or reduce it.

as it says in every players manuel, these are just guidelines. feel free to play how you see fit

[Azlan]

Well, I'm not the one that wrote an official module with a kobold throwing a poison'd dart that attacked the fortitude save... and I find it objectionable that I would take poison damage without having a chance for a fortitude save to stop or reduce it.

Well, everyone now has 4 armor classes, essentially.  Certain effects and powers go against regular armor class, or maybe your reflex, fortitude or will.  You must 'hit' with everything now, there are no more saves like in previous editions.  The save that exists now is a 50-50 shot to eliminate an effect brought on by a power's main effect or secondary effects.  This save is performed at the end of the effected character's turn, and after the condition has had its go.   

For a poison dart, if one is hit they automatically suffer the poison's effect.  Those effects can be on-going 5 poison damage, slowed, stunned, etc.  Though for a dart to attack fortitude, I would think it would need to be a power or magical effect.

[Rakala]

Well, when it says poison that's the type of damage. It's not going to do the same as a poisoned drink. Poison for that attack is only the damage type. It's a little strange but I still think it's a well balanced game.

[Darkmoon]

See, this is why I ditched out on D&D a long time ago and made my own system. So much easier to work with (and much more fun).

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

I don't think anyone plays D&D strictly "by the book", every time I've played, my group has added in their own little twists and turns to things, based on what we think ought to "go right" (More especially in the earlier days when the rules were atrociously written)

[Azlan]

This version of D&D is for recovering MMORPG addicts like the nicotine patch is for recovering smokers.  It is a way to re-socialize them slowly.

[Reese Tora]

I know, that's how it ought to work, that's how it's supposed to work in the system (what, my dwarf, a member of a race known for it's hardiness and resilience against poison, has the same chances of survival against a poisoned dart as a frail elf? By Moradin's beard!)

I know that you can play it however you want, that's why I decided to stick with 3.5.

It's always been my contention that 4th is a decent game, it just oughtn't to be branded as D&D.

[techmaster-glitch]

IIt's always been my contention that 4th is a decent game, it just oughtn't to be branded as D&D.

Huh...my thoughts exactly.

[ShadesFox]

Recovering MMORPG addicts?  I must say that, though I've never played it, the rules give me the feeling that it IS an MMORPG, except with pen and paper instead of a PC.

[Azlan]

Recovering MMORPG addicts?  I must say that, though I've never played it, the rules give me the feeling that it IS an MMORPG, except with pen and paper instead of a PC.

It forces them to interact with real people in person... face to face, therefore it is a step up on the chain.

[Reese Tora]

Recovering MMORPG addicts?  I must say that, though I've never played it, the rules give me the feeling that it IS an MMORPG, except with pen and paper instead of a PC.

It forces them to interact with real people in person... face to face, therefore it is a step up on the chain.

It also forces them to use taht shriveled little organ that they havn't used in so long they ahve no idea what it's there for: their imagination.

It's why I have a standing policy that playing D&D, even 4th edition(or even just game night with Settlers of Catan or Munchkin or even Monopoly), wins priority over any video game I might be in to and "only this far away" from goal X in.

[Rakala]

However the large downside of getting MMO-addicts to play is that they are normally power-gamers. I can't tell you how many people I've invited to play only to have them look on the optimization forums and make something entirely ridiculous.

[lucas marcone]

my group wont let you do that, a character is created with 3 or more people presant unless you know how and can be trusted(DMs mainly).

[Reese Tora]

my group wont let you do that, a character is created with 3 or more people presant unless you know how and can be trusted(DMs mainly).

He's not talking about cheating, he's talking about feat and skill combinations and spell selection; unless the DM is aware of how powerful the synergy is and does not allow them to make a build with that combination(or contradicts the rules to deny the sunergy), there's nothing can be done to stop it because it's all legal within the rules.

personally, I like using non standard combinations and things that are not so commonly used, flavorful things that are in line with whatever character concept, even if they don't give the highest tactical advantage in most situations. (ie: NOT making a Power Attack->Cleave->Great Cleave Fighter with a two handed weapon... though the enhanced damage, thread range, and crit multiplier a Fighter Weapon Specialist with a halberd or Scythe in NWN is just wicked... )

[lucas marcone]

my group wont let you do that, a character is created with 3 or more people presant unless you know how and can be trusted(DMs mainly).

He's not talking about cheating, he's talking about feat and skill combinations and spell selection; unless the DM is aware of how powerful the synergy is and does not allow them to make a build with that combination(or contradicts the rules to deny the sunergy), there's nothing can be done to stop it because it's all legal within the rules.

personally, I like using non standard combinations and things that are not so commonly used, flavorful things that are in line with whatever character concept, even if they don't give the highest tactical advantage in most situations. (ie: NOT making a Power Attack->Cleave->Great Cleave Fighter with a two handed weapon... though the enhanced damage, thread range, and crit multiplier a Fighter Weapon Specialist with a halberd or Scythe in NWN is just wicked... )

i was aware of that...our dms use the rules that best suits our gamestyle. as in we wont let someone make power characters even if they are legal.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

my group wont let you do that, a character is created with 3 or more people presant unless you know how and can be trusted(DMs mainly).

He's not talking about cheating, he's talking about feat and skill combinations and spell selection; unless the DM is aware of how powerful the synergy is and does not allow them to make a build with that combination(or contradicts the rules to deny the sunergy), there's nothing can be done to stop it because it's all legal within the rules.

personally, I like using non standard combinations and things that are not so commonly used, flavorful things that are in line with whatever character concept, even if they don't give the highest tactical advantage in most situations. (ie: NOT making a Power Attack->Cleave->Great Cleave Fighter with a two handed weapon... though the enhanced damage, thread range, and crit multiplier a Fighter Weapon Specialist with a halberd or Scythe in NWN is just wicked... )

i was aware of that...our dms use the rules that best suits our gamestyle. as in we wont let someone make power characters even if they are legal.

Just wondering, how do you define "power gaming"? I mean, you wouldn't ban someone whose character's highest stat is strength for playing a fighter type, would you? Or how about using CoDzilla? At what point does someone cross the line into "power gaming?"

[lucas marcone]

ok heres an example.......one of our players wanted to be a lycanthrope but but like 7 diffrent ones in the same body at once. now SURELY that would upset gameplay so we told him that he had to have a way tio limet that power.....so he gave himself multi persomality disorder. to that we thought it was still over powered so we gave each one key words according to personality. we called that character captain shitty druid the rest of the campaign because it felt like a failed attempt to make a druid.


another famous example is my gnoll. he got godly rolls when making him so much that he was hellaciously strong and slightly more intellegent than humans with great constitution. well even i thought that was kinda over powered for the leve we were playing at....so i gave him the nonlethal rabies.

[Reese Tora]

i was aware of that...our dms use the rules that best suits our gamestyle. as in we wont let someone make power characters even if they are legal.

oh, I see.

I mistook your statement to mean guarding agaisnt cheating(as in fudging dice rolls.)
I don't see where having three guys present is necessary vs. submitting the character before hand for review, but each grioup must needs have its traditions.

[lucas marcone]

less of a tradition than "oh hay i dont have a character." or "oh guys i wanted to try something, get me the character sheets"

[Keleth]

I'm kinda glad that 4th ed seems a little harder for powergamers to abuse.

3.5 was kinda ridiculous in the combinations and multi-classing you could have to be almost perfect at everything :o

Also I don't know why people say combat is more. . MMO based, yeah they suggest you use tiles, but.

When we played 3.5 (And we played several years worth) we always used tiles anyways, since abilities and attacks were given in 5 foot increments instead of '1 square' and a square was 5 feet.

So now the only difference is they say "1 square" instead of "5 feet" At least in terms of placement goes.

Yeah combat is different, but it's also more streamlined. We find the combat goes by faster and we're actually doing the -roleplaying-  aspect much more often.