just to debate

[gh0st]

i had this amazing idea a few minutes ago, i don't know if it was ever brought up before but i think it's rather original. so bone is made up of different kinds of minerals right? and as we've observed with other minerals, the shape of the Chrystal tends to depend on the shape of the atoms contained within the crystal (see quartz, diamonds, and metal) so wouldn't that mean that the shape of our bones are determined also roughly by the shape of the atoms contained within it? and if this is true then wouldn't there be a slight possibility that some bones could form the same between two species. (cough, evolution, cough, hack) to support this even more, some bones in dogs look like scaled down versions of human bones (see femur and dog femur). but yet last i heard evolution doesn't say that we came from the ancestors of dogs, or for that matter dogs themselves.

but at the same time i'm not sure, i don't major in medical knowledge, i barely even watch house. all that i know about evolution is the basic we came from monkeys propaganda, mixed with the whole "we didn't come from monkeys" propaganda. so, i don't believe i have much in the way of knowledge on this. what do you guys think because really i'd like to do a study and find out for myself...

[Brunhidden]

a crystalline lattice structure only really forms in 'pure' substances, usually a single element or a precise combination of two or three compatable elements that form a tessellation. also many lattice structures require a very precise environment, such as a system of heating and cooling to allow it to grow.

a crystalline lattice structure cant really form in bones, as bones are a slopy composite of many minerals and things that aren't really minerals, particularly one that continually changes its mineral composition from one day to the next as it stores minerals the rest of your body needs. usually crystals forming in your bones is a very painful thing that happens from nutrition problems, and may require surgery to remove spiky shards from your kneecap.

The average Ph.D. thesis is nothing but a transference of bones from one graveyard to another.

[gh0st]

but aren't diamonds color dependent on mineral impurities, as well as rubies? also i should probably clarify that i was trying to say bones ARE the lattice structure, it would explain why nodules and other spikes happen to form on bone (ouch). also diamonds are the hardest things known to man (unless we finally found something more durable) yet their structure is chaotic at best. on a further note the body stays regulated at around 98 degrees Fahrenheit iron and most other metals forms it's lattice at room temperature or less, with the exception of mercury.

[VSMIT]

While colors in diamonds are dependent on the impurities in the lattice structure, the amount of impure substance is not concentrated enough to make a real difference in the composition of the mineral in question.  If you had a diamond that was as red as a ruby, it would not be as strong as a clear diamond, because the impurities would make up too much of the diamond.

and as we've observed with other minerals, the shape of the Chrystal tends to depend on the shape of the atoms contained within the crystal (see quartz, diamonds, and metal) so wouldn't that mean that the shape of our bones are determined also roughly by the shape of the atoms contained within it?

That is not really correct.  The shape of the crystal structure is not dependent on the shape of the atom/molecule, it is dependent on the type of bond between each different part (in the case of a diamond, between each carbon atom, in the case of ice, between each water molecule).

and if this is true then wouldn't there be a slight possibility that some bones could form the same between two species. (cough, evolution, cough, hack) to support this even more, some bones in dogs look like scaled down versions of human bones (see femur and dog femur). but yet last i heard evolution doesn't say that we came from the ancestors of dogs, or for that matter dogs themselves.

The current fossil record does not state that humans were decended from ancient dogs, but it does state that all mammals came from pretty much the same ancestor.  The reason for the bone shape being similar is because that shape works for both species, and is not a specialized bone (such as those in the hands of creatures with opposable thumbs).

[Reese Tora]

while, certainly, you could make calcium crystals, that's not how bones form; a body forms (for lack of my knowing a better word) bones by means of specialized cells depositing the materials that the bones are comprised of.  Crystals, OTOH, are formed by the materials natural ability to align as they change from a liquid to a solid state.

Crystals, also, form into basic three dmensional geometric shapes (made of squares, hexagons, paralelograms, I forget the proper names for these shapes), and only with addition of impurities and irregularities do they deviate into less basic shapes.

I do believe that the processes by which human bones are formed are well understood by science, so you could probably find a very good descriptions of it in medical books in the library or on wikipedia.

[Eibborn]

Interesting idea, but it's got some major flaws.

I'll second what VSMIT said about evolution, although I'd like to add that even whales have finger-like bones within their flippers. Their skeletal structures are similar to ours in that way! It's quite fascinating- my Bio prof. showed us a picture contrasting the bone structures of a couple mammals' 'hands'- bats, whales, dogs and humans are all pretty similar! Some bones are longer, some are shorter, but it's the same general idea because they all derived from a common ancestor.

Also, I'm pretty sure than bones don't count as crystals.

[rabid_fox]

God made them that way. Femurs, I mean. He had nothing to do with shins, interestingly enough.

[lucas marcone]

while, certainly, you could make calcium crystals, that's not how bones form; a body forms (for lack of my knowing a better word) bones by means of specialized cells depositing the materials that the bones are comprised of.  Crystals, OTOH, are formed by the materials natural ability to align as they change from a liquid to a solid state.

Crystals, also, form into basic three dmensional geometric shapes (made of squares, hexagons, paralelograms, I forget the proper names for these shapes), and only with addition of impurities and irregularities do they deviate into less basic shapes.

I do believe that the processes by which human bones are formed are well understood by science, so you could probably find a very good descriptions of it in medical books in the library or on wikipedia.

take all wiki with a grain of salt. user regulated information sites are always a bit sketchy.

[gh0st]

that they are,

God made them that way. Femurs, I mean. He had nothing to do with shins, interestingly enough.

he deals in ribs...

and yeah it's just an idea, a theory, one that i would like to test in the future, with funding from me... still on the off chance that it is true, that could explain, at least a couple things...

[rabid_fox]

Yeah, he's a real show-off when he gets a rib on the workbench.

[lucas marcone]

*ahem* if i may state that i am a created evolutionist. i belive god made the universe and all the laws but let the universe take it's corse. we were indirectly created by god though he knew what he was doing when he set the events into motion.


on that note yes femurs were an evolutionary necessity for most land mammals

[Brunhidden]

i agree, anyone smart enough to make life would also be smart enough to leave fail safes allowing said life to adapt if its environment changes. the thing that always puzzled me is that when the bible says the world was made in six days- who was there to witness it? it just reeks of something that had existed long before Judaism and just got absorbed into the religion as a pre-existing myth. also, people being made out of clay is actually kinda true depending on how you think of it.

isn't it lovely how well minerals and whatnot can actually fit together to make something as useful as a bone? do you have any clue how strong per inch a bone is? or a pearl, just sit in amazement at how beautiful a pearl is despite being layers of mucous and sediment.

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.

[Jairus]

Isn't a human femur pound for pound stronger than concrete, or something like that? And it grows naturally, with no needed influence from the being it's growing inside of. And it's self repairing! It's directions are encoded into bits of DNA based on some ancient pattern predating all of human history! I swear, ever time I just stop to think about the complexity in the human body, I actually become a little more optimistic about the world. And then I think about the complexity of other lifeforms, all of which are build of the same stuff... and now I sound like I'm on a drug trip, and I should stop before I get to the point that I think about how each of the millions of cells in my body is constructed from stuff that's proportionally as big as a cell is compared to a body... And now I'm rambling again.

Someone once observed that whatever humans can do, nature came up with millenia ago, does it better, and it's all-natural. It's a pretty darn good approximation for it.

[Fragmaster01]

Isn't a human femur pound for pound stronger than concrete, or something like that?

Depends on what kind of strength you're talking about. In terms of lateral strength(pulling on both ends of the bone), bone has a great advantage against concrete. However, if you apply force perpendicular to a bone, well... that's how they get broken.

[Jairus]

Isn't a human femur pound for pound stronger than concrete, or something like that?

Depends on what kind of strength you're talking about. In terms of lateral strength(pulling on both ends of the bone), bone has a great advantage against concrete. However, if you apply force perpendicular to a bone, well... that's how they get broken.

True. Bones are stronger because of tensile strength or something like that... my Dad could probably answer that question better, since he does a lot of construction work. Concrete's good at having weight on it, but it's bad at being stretched out because it gets weaker that way. If I recall correctly, that's what rebar is for: to reinforce the concrete. And now I'm half-remembering stuff like compression forces, and it's annoying me to no end. Again, I probably have no freaking idea what I'm saying. That's what I get for half-dozing through my high-school science classes.