12/03/07 [DMFA #849] - Worry's for Another Day

[Darkmoon]

I think this discussion need to relax some. People are becoming to incensed over this, and I'd rather not see it become a flame war... which, from the attacks being hurled around, it practically is.

Relax, or else Dunecat will get you.

[Amber Williams]

You ruin everything Darkmoon.

[Kaerou]

The.. the antics!  They're so zany!

I love the comic response to the question made me giggle on an otherwise stressful day!

[Netrogo]

When you refer to the changing of names due to pride and such Amber, are you talking about situations like the US declaring French Fries were to be called Freedom Fries just because they were mad at France?

[Goatmon]

Love the way you drew the doll in the last panel.  I wis hI could remember the name of that character, but I haven't seen that show in so very long. 

[Amber Williams]

When you refer to the changing of names due to pride and such Amber, are you talking about situations like the US declaring French Fries were to be called Freedom Fries just because they were mad at France?

Pretty much.

I fully accept and even at times embrace the slow evolution of slang and cultural words.  It's a given. Much like how New York will know a lot more yiddish-slang like Schlep, where as the majority of people in Texas will have no understanding.  That's a natural step I fully think is cool.

What I'm mostly getting at is when there is an obvious and gaudy reason that a word is trying to be pushed.  Like freedom fries, or as Tapewolf mentioned, people changing words for no reason other than to make it a word in their own language. (Exception obviously in cases where the word is simply too difficult to pronounce and needs to be altered to be spoken)

For me, it's a matter of respect.  To me, people deliberately trying to force a new word or change one for vanity reasons is incredibly disrespectful.  It'd be like me going through the forum and changing people's usernames to match a particular theme.  Sure I can do it, but it'd be disrespectful and would go against your original choice of name...and it'd be rude.

Love the way you drew the doll in the last panel.  I wis hI could remember the name of that character, but I haven't seen that show in so very long. 

Thanks.  It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right.  I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. 

[Paul]

I'm curious as to what specific example triggered this rant?

Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys

God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.

Bad example. First, telephone is not an English word to begin with. It's made by combining the Greek words tele and phone, and this combination word is a French invention. Second, no one in Europe other than native English-speakers would dream of saying "phone" instead of "telephone" (or the appropriate spelling thereof), and if you put "cell" into a non-English sentence, it simply looks like a spelling mistake. So it makes perfect sense to use another term than "cell phone", as this term makes absolutely no sense in German, French or Spanish. Handy, mobile or portable are, OTOH, very good descriptions of the object.

EDIT: on topic: Today's comic made me laugh, even though I've never seen Fraggle Rock. How odd.

[Kenji]

Thanks.  It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right.  I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. 

They actually made new ones recently. I know Hot Topic and Target sold em, at least. They aren't made too shabby, either. Red's been holding up from being tossed around and shuffled about really well.

Also, I bet more will come out when the Fraggle movie shows up.

[zopey]

what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something

[Kuari]

what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something

Looks more like a box of some sort...  or a shampoo bottle...  or would look like a shampoo bottle if it had a top.

[zopey]

or some siort of pink brick or a pink nintendo. what is it?

[Angel]

I gotta watch Fraggle Rock again... I loved it, but I don't remember a lot of it. Awesome comic.

[Goatmon]

Thanks.  It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right.  I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. 

They actually made new ones recently. I know Hot Topic and Target sold em, at least. They aren't made too shabby, either. Red's been holding up from being tossed around and shuffled about really well.

Also, I bet more will come out when the Fraggle movie shows up.

Whu... a movie? 

[e_voyager]

movies of shows past. it's happening all over again. after all Alvin and the chipmunks opens and less then 2 weeks.

[zopey]

eh... what??

[Sid]

Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys

God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.

Bad example. First, telephone is not an English word to begin with. It's made by combining the Greek words tele and phone, and this combination word is a French invention. Second, no one in Europe other than native English-speakers would dream of saying "phone" instead of "telephone" (or the appropriate spelling thereof), and if you put "cell" into a non-English sentence, it simply looks like a spelling mistake. So it makes perfect sense to use another term than "cell phone", as this term makes absolutely no sense in German, French or Spanish. Handy, mobile or portable are, OTOH, very good descriptions of the object.

Germany has a perfectly fine word for cell phones: "Mobiltelefon" (mobile phone). We just too silly to actually use it, so we "came up" with "Handy", which is just another English word (and also looks like a spelling mistake because it didn't exist like that in German and is just one letter away from our word for "hand": "Hand"), so... *shrugs helplessly*

[LoneHowler]

I'm curious as to what specific example triggered this rant?

Regarding the Rant: I completely understand the language gap, in Europe they call cell phones Handys

God yes, I was so going to bring up that example, too. It makes so terribly little sense to import an English word to replace another English word in non-English-speaking countries.

Bad example. First, telephone is not an English word to begin with. It's made by combining the Greek words tele and phone, and this combination word is a French invention. Second, no one in Europe other than native English-speakers would dream of saying "phone" instead of "telephone" (or the appropriate spelling thereof), and if you put "cell" into a non-English sentence, it simply looks like a spelling mistake. So it makes perfect sense to use another term than "cell phone", as this term makes absolutely no sense in German, French or Spanish. Handy, mobile or portable are, OTOH, very good descriptions of the object.

EDIT: on topic: Today's comic made me laugh, even though I've never seen Fraggle Rock. How odd.

oh so that explains it thank you, as to where the discussion originated was Amber's rant which is below the comic. I could have brought up what the British call a cigarette, it's so funny to see a persons face when they hear a Britain saying they are going out for a fag(smoke)

[rabid_fox]

In England, you can bum a fag in public and not get arrested.

Language is fascinating. Also, everyone's an expert and knows everything about language that there is to know. Because like, they like, like, speak it. Like.

[Eibborn]

No see what Amber is saying is that everyone should learn English and only use English names, because it's the master language. I object to this because it is morally WRONG and blah blah blah blah

Also, she eats babies.

[Rafe]

In England, you can bum a fag in public and not get arrested.

Reminds me of a story British actress Julie Andrews told about her early career in the U.S.  She was at a rehersal when the producer and one of his staff came by to ask her about something.  As she walked up to them, she remembered that she needed some cigarettes, and she around turned to another cast member and said in a loud whisper, "Fags! Fags!" .  She had no idea why they were offended.

Language is fascinating. Also, everyone's an expert and knows everything about language that there is to know. Because like, they like, like, speak it. Like.

Well speaking as a writer and historian, which kind of makes me an expert, I do think it's facinating.  The other thing I'd point out to Amber and everyone, is that, contrary to what you might think it's usually the newest stuff that gets called by all the different names.  Even in countries which speak the same langauge, like the U.K. and the U.S. if some gadget was around 300 years ago, we use the same word (mostly), but look at things like railroads and cars and electronics:

U.K  =  U.S.
driver = engineer
piston box  =  cylinders
guards van = caboose
points = switch

boot = trunk
bonnet = hood
gear box - transmission
windscreen = windshield

I've worked with British engineers.  Electronic parts are always "bits", (electronic) vacuum tubes are  "valves", and  my favorite - the technical help line is the "queries department".  They discoverd that asking for "queries" frequently makes people hang up on them.

But English is very welcoming of other languages.  It's so mongrelized it's hard to learn for non-speakers.  It borrows from all over the place.  Japanese is a close second.  They use European language terms just becuse they like the way they sound, and even if they don't understand them.  The real language chauvanists - to use a French term - are the French. 

The French created a whole bureaucracy (another French term) called Commission générale de terminologie et de néologie, to keep other languages, especially English, out.  The Japanese came up with the tiny portable music player and gave it an English name "Walkman".  Everybody called it that.  Not the French.  It had to be called "le baladeur" or it was illegal to sell it.  Same for IPods - "le baladeur" again.  Can't say "podcast" either.  It has to be "Baladodiffusion".  Software?, no it's "logiciel."  Everyone in the world knows whae email is, but in France it's "courriel" (from "courrier", mail, and "électronique", electronic).   

[Angel]

I've also heard that if you say "I fell on my fanny" in England, it's much much funnier than you'd think.

I kind of agree with Amber. I mean, it's pretty sad that the only universally understood word in the world is "Coca-Cola."

[bill]

"MY WORD IS BETTER THAN YOURS"

[Kenji]

Thanks.  It'd be Red, who I had to do a quick reference check to make sure I drew right.  I actually did own a doll of her way back when...but these days those dolls are mega-expensive. So I doubt I'll ever get a new one. 

They actually made new ones recently. I know Hot Topic and Target sold em, at least. They aren't made too shabby, either. Red's been holding up from being tossed around and shuffled about really well.

Also, I bet more will come out when the Fraggle movie shows up.

Whu... a movie? 

Fraggles in Outer Space
...
...
Just remember, "outer space" to Fraggles is just the surface world.

[zopey]

right...

[RJ]

"MY WORD IS BETTER THAN YOURS"

No it's not.

*insert colourful Australian swear words here*

[Rafe]

I've also heard that if you say "I fell on my fanny" in England, it's much much funnier than you'd think.

I kind of agree with Amber. I mean, it's pretty sad that the only universally understood word in the world is "Coca-Cola."

Actually, in Mandarin Chinese, which about one fourth of the world speaks, the name Coca-Cola had to be changed a bit (happened in 1928), because Coca-Cola itself means "bite the wax tadpole" or "a mare flattened with wax". 

[Alondro]

*Charline LOVES Dunecat!*  Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!  I want one!  *stuffs a cat into a tube... stuff stuff stuff SQUISH.. *   I broke my Dunecat. 

*Charles knows that the Master Language will be his own!*  Soon the world will speak only Piney!   

[Naldru]

what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something

Looks more like a box of some sort...  or a shampoo bottle...  or would look like a shampoo bottle if it had a top.

I thought that it was a chalk board eraser.  I know teachers who felt that they were useful for getting the attention of inattentive students.

I also know where there were a group of cubicles for grad students.  The lights would go off at night if they didn't detect motion for a certain amount of time.  So some of the students would stockpile erasers and throw them at the motion sensor when the light went out.

[Paul]

what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something

I thought it was a gaming console...

Germany has a perfectly fine word for cell phones: "Mobiltelefon" (mobile phone). We just too silly to actually use it, so we "came up" with "Handy", which is just another English word (and also looks like a spelling mistake because it didn't exist like that in German and is just one letter away from our word for "hand": "Hand"), so... *shrugs helplessly*

Yeah, that is a little silly. But plenty of languages work like that - nick a word from another language, even though you have your own word already, simply because the foreign word sounds clever or whatever. In a generation or so, everyone will have forgotten that "Handy" was not a German word to begin with. And come on, it's not a bad word... a Handy is clearly something you hold in your hand. 

The French created a whole bureaucracy (another French term) called Commission générale de terminologie et de néologie, to keep other languages, especially English, out.  The Japanese came up with the tiny portable music player and gave it an English name "Walkman".  Everybody called it that.  Not the French.  It had to be called "le baladeur" or it was illegal to sell it.  Same for IPods - "le baladeur" again.  Can't say "podcast" either.  It has to be "Baladodiffusion".  Software?, no it's "logiciel."  Everyone in the world knows whae email is, but in France it's "courriel" (from "courrier", mail, and "électronique", electronic). 

That's not a particularly French trait. Plenty of countries do the same. E.G. Icelandish and Swedish have local words for all the examples you give (in Swedish, software = mjukvaror; email = epost). In most cases, it's simply a matter of coming up with words that are A) pronouncable and B) make logical sense to native speakers. That's not chauvinism, it's being practical.

BTW, this is the third time in the two threads about this subject that someone has asserted that English is oh so hard to learn. Where did you get that idea? English is easy: no inflections. Ever.

[BlueTiger]

what exactaly did amber hit fluffy with
it looks like a box of tissues or something

Call me crazy, but I think it's an eraser. (Please don't actually call me crazy, that's hurtful and mean.)

For some reason, I started singing "So long and thanks for all the fish" when I read this comic. Maybe it's because I can't recall the Fraggle Rock theme song. Or maybe it's because that's what I hear Amber singing as she leaves her sanity behind.

Finally, I agree with what Amber said in her rant and you all are taking what she said as a quest for global domination. Sorry folks, she isn't Bungie, she just thinks when new things come out people should call it the same name. Don't change what's already there, but why create more confusion?