9/15/07 AS #98 Plan B always come out messy

[AnizInDisguise]

I'm...... gravely disappointed of the inconsistency that was just permited. (A character as intelligent as Aniz screws up when he almost certainly should have had a plan in case some stupid person decided to attack him.)

But, I guess even good writers can't avoid inconsistencies all the time...

Who said it was inconsistent? Really, I think that if you're already mad and badly injured, then when something suddenly tries to kill you it doesn't matter how intelligent you are. You go blind with rage and the will to survive, and attack that thing back with everything you've got, your mind suddenly filled with the same intent to kill.

But you are right on one matter: no matter how good of a writer you are there will be some inconsistencies in your work.

[Caswin]

if you're already mad and badly injured, then when something suddenly tries to kill you

...and I'll say it again.  Why do so many people assume Hennya was trying to kill him, when there's nothing suggesting she was and Amber has stated during her first attack that she specifically wasn't?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

if you're already mad and badly injured, then when something suddenly tries to kill you

...and I'll say it again.  Why do so many people assume Hennya was trying to kill him, when there's nothing suggesting she was and Amber has stated during her first attack that she specifically wasn't?

I don't think they're assuming that she was. I think they're assuming that Aniz would assume that she was.

... which doesn't make it any more correct - after all, she as much as said she was going to kill him, after attacking, then giving him a chance to run away, thereby suggesting that she -could- have killed him first time around, but chose not to.

[superluser]

Aniz didn't anticipate Hennya to be a threat. When you first start thinking about what can go wrong, you go to assess the most immediate threats. At the current time, Aniz really didn't have time to go planning some drawn out affair with an outsider, especially when that outsider has a few aces up her sleeve she isn't showing anybody.

My first thought would be, ``Witnesses are bad.  I should get rid of this one.''  I don't think I'm that strange to think that this would be most people's initial reaction.  There are countless entries in the Evil Overlord list about how pitifully weak opponents might not be able to defeat you, but they would certainly throw a wrench into your plans.

Certainly, this would be taught at SAIA.  If you've got an airtight plan, and the current situation is reducible to that plan, don't try to modify the plan; modify the situation.  The plan calls for Abel and May.  So you get Hennya out in the way that will make people take the least notice.  He already knows that other people know about Abel's headwings, so it's not like he can keep Abel's `cubi nature a secret by killing Hennya, and he'll face certain justice for killing her.

Or he could have told her to go home.  That's not really elaborate planning.

It isn't bad writing

You said it, not me.  Because I don't think it's true.

... which doesn't make it any more correct - after all, she as much as said she was going to kill him, after attacking, then giving him a chance to run away, thereby suggesting that she -could- have killed him first time around, but chose not to.

The way I read it, Aniz would have read Hennya's thoughts and killed her immediately if she had tried for a fatal wound.

[Naldru]

I have known some people who beonged to Mensa and still acted pretty stupid when it came to working on technology.   I have known world reknowned computer scientists who couldn't figure out how to work the remote control.  (I do mean these literally.  I am not going to name names.)

Dumb people screw up.  Brilliant people screw up.  There's no point in saying that Aniz should have been smart enough to do this or that,  Plus the cubi are known for random acts of violence and have a reputation as jerks.  Regardless of how smart they are or aren't, I can't see them as great successes in the area of crisis resolution or transcendental meditation.

Aniz had a plan.  Aniz screwed up.  Part of the measure of a man (or furry) is how they deal with things going wrong.  That's what we'll see about Aniz in the next few weeks.

[Sajoli]

Someone call a Cleric!  We need a Resurrection spell, post haste!

Resurrecting a body that's been sliced isn't always the best idea (warning: blood).

These two taken together suggest to me that she might well think that murdering children is, indeed, a good laugh - but she's intelligent enough to know where it likely will lead to if she let Destania start doing that in class.

I dunno.  She seems to have a thing for babies.  She's adopted two people (one of which wasn't even from the `cubi race), she's rather keen on Pyro having kids, and we know that she disliked the idea of using babies for torture class.  Sounds to me like she's got some psychological hang-ups around kids.

Aniz's real plan probably involved only HIM and Abel one-to-one, and maybe May. Still, I doubt 'the truth' coming up unexpectedly wasn't a part of his plans, nevertheless he couldn't have predicted another person's prescence in the ordeal, especially a creature who could do a great deal of damage to him.

I think one of the first things that you think of when planning something is to think about what happens if you get caught.  Like I said, it wouldn't have been difficult at all to send Hennya away so that the family could have a private discussion.

As to whether or not Aniz is working for SAIA, he's clearly expecting to meet Fa'Lina again, and expecting that getting there any later than he already is will result in a worse fate.

That's a good point, and brought something up that I hadn't thought of before. Could Fa'lina have had children before  her clan was slaughtered? Could explain her motherhood obsession-type thing.

ARGH! TWAS OFF-TOPIC! *punches self in punishment*

[Alondro]

*Charles wonders if DMFA will eventually go the route of "Sluggy"*  If you're not a main character, you have a 90% chance of a gruesome death... a 6% chance of many gruesome deaths, and a 4% chance of a humerous death that will have everyone rolling in the isles as your blood gushes out.   

[superluser]

Dumb people screw up.  Brilliant people screw up.  There's no point in saying that Aniz should have been smart enough to do this or that,

I'm just saying that this level of stupidity is enough to put Aniz on the pages of News of the Weird along with the guy who tried to rob a bank disguised as a tree or the guy who nearly set fire to his trailer trying to dispose of counterfeit money.

It seems hard to imagine that this is the same guy who could keep up such a ruse for 25 years.  There must be something else going on here.

[nikename2]

Well there's still a chance that he has multiple personalities....I guess. From acting like someone else for so long its possible. It would be beyond bizarre if suddenly the "Cid" in him came up again and he freaked out from Hennya lying skewerd on the floor. 

[pseudocompulsion]

I think this whole day has taken Aniz by surprise.  Even though we know that he expected some variation of this scene — he had a speech prepared, after all — he certainly wasn't expecting  Abel to suddenly be sporting headwings this afternoon when he got home as Cid. And I seriously doubt that he was expecting Hennya to be there for this little confrontation at all.   So, in spite of all his planning, he's had to pretty much improvise the whole thing.

He freaked out and killed Hennya, and he's smart enough to know that that's a problem. Honestly, he's behaving exactly as I, at least, would expect him to.

Besides, what evidence do we have that he's particularly intelligent? That he pulled off his Cid impersonation? He's a mind-reader; he could simply have gotten by by behaving as May would expect Cid to.

[AnizInDisguise]

if you're already mad and badly injured, then when something suddenly tries to kill you

...and I'll say it again.  Why do so many people assume Hennya was trying to kill him, when there's nothing suggesting she was and Amber has stated during her first attack that she specifically wasn't?

I don't think they're assuming that she was. I think they're assuming that Aniz would assume that she was.

... which doesn't make it any more correct - after all, she as much as said she was going to kill him, after attacking, then giving him a chance to run away, thereby suggesting that she -could- have killed him first time around, but chose not to.

You are correct about me assuming that he would assume she wanted to kill him.

[superluser]

Besides, what evidence do we have that he's particularly intelligent? That he pulled off his Cid impersonation? He's a mind-reader; he could simply have gotten by by behaving as May would expect Cid to.

The plan required a lot of forethought.  We have evidence that he's planned a lot of this, and that he can be quite patient.  He was intelligent enough to realize that he had to wear bracers and he's intelligent enough to incapacitate Abel with one finger.  He's not a dummy.  He's just extremely impulsive.  And I'm having a hard time reconciling his impulsiveness with his patience.

[Naldru]

"The best-laid plans of mice and men oft go awry" was a statement by Robert Burns, and it appears to apply to cubi as well.  To borrow a word from another thread, many very intelligent people find it inconceivable that things won't go as they plan.  After all, since they are so intelligent, they must be right.  Right?  This is a thread that usually unravels in real life, as shown by the statements "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy" and "Murphy was an optimist".

Frankly, the fact that he messed up so badly could be a point in his favor since it shows that he isn't an experienced enough cad to have worked out all the wrinkles.

I can't remember which detective show it was (it might have been Columbo) but the detective came up with a line similar to the following:  "Intelligent people sometimes think they can get away with murder because they're so intelligent.  And it may be that they're more intelligent than me.  But they only murder people once.  I track down murderers every day."

In the final analysis, those people who say they wouldn't have messed it up are actually the most likely to have messed it up.

[pseudocompulsion]

Besides, what evidence do we have that he's particularly intelligent? That he pulled off his Cid impersonation? He's a mind-reader; he could simply have gotten by by behaving as May would expect Cid to.

The plan required a lot of forethought.  We have evidence that he's planned a lot of this, and that he can be quite patient.  He was intelligent enough to realize that he had to wear bracers and he's intelligent enough to incapacitate Abel with one finger.  He's not a dummy.  He's just extremely impulsive.  And I'm having a hard time reconciling his impulsiveness with his patience.

I just think that our evidence of both his patience and his impulsiveness are a bit skewed. Yeah, he's patient enough to keep up the Cid charade, but I'm sure he was enjoying the challenge and the deceit. Plus, he's an incubus; what's 25 years? Likewise, our impression of his impulsiveness is from this Hennya thing, when something he didn't expect pissed him off until he did something dumb. Can we really call him impulsive based on that? It's just a lot to call him "intelligent," or "impulsive," or anything. We really know nothing concrete about this character.

So, based on what I, personally, have gathered from the comic, here is all I feel sure about regarding Aniz:

- He is at least somewhat intelligent. Again, I don't see anything suggesting that he is especially so; the fact that he would have to cover his clan marking is a bit of a no-brainer. Though I'll give him the little hemophobe-manipulation thing. That was pretty good.
- He has some skill at long-term planning. However, as a mind-reader, winging it (there's a pun there somewhere) wouldn't be particularly hard. Kill adventurer, devour his emotions, mind-read his memories, find his wife, and mind-read her to the point that you can passably portray her husband. Pretty straightforward.
- He's fairly patient. As I said, though, I believe that he's been enjoying himself quite a lot.
- He's not very good at short-term, off-the-cuff action. Note: his forgotten speech, his Creature-killing faux pas.
- He's arrogant as all hell.

AAAAND I'm realizing that I'm contradicting myself all over the place.  Honestly, I've kind of forgotten the point I've been trying to make, so I'll settle for this one:

We still really don't know anything about Aniz. However, given the kind of patience we've seen from him, and the kind of impulsiveness we've seen, I don't feel that they contradict each other.

Wow. Don't answer the phone in the middle of typing a post. It makes your thoughts go all askew.

[superluser]

This is a thread that usually unravels in real life, as shown by the statements "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy" and "Murphy was an optimist".

You don't kidnap people in front of witnesses.  I'm not saying that he's Mensa material, just that it takes a special type of stupidity and impatience to kidnap people in front of witnesses.  I did find one guy who kidnapped someone in front of some witnesses.  He was apprehended later that day.

In the final analysis, those people who say they wouldn't have messed it up are actually the most likely to have messed it up.

Oh, I'm sure I'd have messed this up.  But I'd be sure that when I messed it up, I'd be alone or with people that I could kill with impunity.

Edit:

I just think that our evidence of both his patience and his impulsiveness are a bit skewed. Yeah, he's patient enough to keep up the Cid charade, but I'm sure he was enjoying the challenge and the deceit. Plus, he's an incubus; what's 25 years?

He doesn't seem to have enjoyed it all that much.  Every thing that he has said about those years has been said with extreme antipathy, tending towards disgust.  As for what 25 years is to an incubus?  About 3 months.  It's still a long time.

Likewise, our impression of his impulsiveness is from this Hennya thing, when something he didn't expect pissed him off until he did something dumb. Can we really call him impulsive based on that? It's just a lot to call him "intelligent," or "impulsive," or anything. We really know nothing concrete about this character.

But we do know that he could have asked her to leave right at the beginning.  After all, it looked like Cid and May were going to have a talk about infidelity, and it would be perfectly natural to expect that Cid would ask Hennya to leave, since she's not from the family.  We know that he did not.  We also know that he tends to go for cheap, fast shots rather than slower, more effective ones (viz his slapping May).

We see him being impulsive, and we see him being really dumb.  Neither of those fit with the plotting Aniz that must have existed for the past 25 years.  There's something else we're missing.

[Tapewolf]

You don't kidnap people in front of witnesses.  I'm not saying that he's Mensa material, just that it takes a special type of stupidity and impatience to kidnap people in front of witnesses.

For a human, yes.  For Aniz it can work.  What good are witnesses if you can teleport to a magical academy where you can wait until the witnesses are long-dead?   The ability to assume a completely new identity via shapeshifting would also make it a viable proposition.
Granted Abel will remain the same, but the object of the kidnapping is to send him to boarding school for the next three centuries so that doesn't matter.

[superluser]

For a human, yes.  For Aniz it can work.  What good are witnesses if you can teleport to a magical academy where you can wait until the witnesses are long-dead?

While Aniz may be able to teleport in theory, he hasn't shown the ability to do so in practice.  Specifically, he's had about half a dozen opportunities to take Abel and zap out of there, but he hasn't yet.

The ability to assume a completely new identity via shapeshifting would also make it a viable proposition.

Not in a demon city.  `Cubi aren't the only creatures that can assume alternate forms, and I'm sure that the police have worked out ways of telling what your true identity is.  Heck, one of them is lying on the floor right now.

[Tapewolf]

While Aniz may be able to teleport in theory, he hasn't shown the ability to do so in practice.  Specifically, he's had about half a dozen opportunities to take Abel and zap out of there, but he hasn't yet.

He might be about to do that now, of course.  Even if he just cleans himself up slightly and walks out carrying Abel, it doesn't matter.  He'll be gone long before the police can figure out what happened.

Not in a demon city.  `Cubi aren't the only creatures that can assume alternate forms, and I'm sure that the police have worked out ways of telling what your true identity is.  Heck, one of them is lying on the floor right now.

Ah, you're assuming he's going to remain in Zinvth.  If I were in his position, I'd assume another form and never come back.

[superluser]

Ah, you're assuming he's going to remain in Zinvth.  If I were in his position, I'd assume another form and never come back.

Politics is a tricky business.  If I were the police, one of the first places that I'd check would be the safe havens.  If Fa'Lina wants to keep SAIA's autonomy, she would have to respond.  Failure to do so would result in rather serious consequences.  I'm not sure how feasible a creature raiding party on SAIA would be (specifically because I'm not sure if they could get there), but they would risk losing a seat on the council, among other diplomatic offices, should she refuse to respond.

This would have rather serious consequences for all `cubi.

(Don't believe me?  Remember the furore over Elián González)

[Tapewolf]

Politics is a tricky business.  If I were the police, one of the first places that I'd check would be the safe havens.  If Fa'Lina wants to keep SAIA's autonomy, she would have to respond.  Failure to do so would result in rather serious consequences.

True, but on the other hand it sounds a little too neat and organised for Furrae.  Kria has even gone around killing people in built-up areas, with little in the way of repercussions.  What Aniz has done isn't a patch on that.



'Cubi seem to spend much of their time pretending they aren't 'Cubi, so short of a witch-hunt (which is likely to harm more innocents than actual 'Cubi) politics are largely irrelevant, with the exception of SAIA which I think is too well-protected.

Finally, unless he's actually still studying, Aniz doesn't have to return to SAIA after his son is safely there.   He could just melt away into some Being village and lie low there.  No-one would be able to tell.

**EDIT**
Now soul-stealing... I imagine that would cause big trouble.

[Amber Williams]

If Fa'Lina wants to keep SAIA's autonomy, she would have to respond.  Failure to do so would result in rather serious consequences.

[Timothy]

Finally, unless he's actually still studying, Aniz doesn't have to return to SAIA after his son is safely there.   He could just melt away into some Being village and lie low there.  No-one would be able to tell.

Is there a hint somewhere that he wanted Abel to go to SAIA in the first place?
Maybe he had other plans for him and now fears loosing control over Abel.
Perhaps Abel being stuck at SAIA is a future result of unwanted attention to his existence.

Edit: My what large teeth you have! 

[Tapewolf]

Dammit, you can only give one point of karma at once.  That deserves at least ten...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

If Fa'Lina wants to keep SAIA's autonomy, she would have to respond.  Failure to do so would result in rather serious consequences.

http://www.missmab.com/WRY/Bwahaha.jpg

*snerk* Subtle, Amber. Nicely drawn, though. ;-]

Dammit, you can only give one point of karma at once.  That deserves at least ten...

... let me help you with that...

[Tapewolf]

... let me help you with that...

Aw, thanks

Is there a hint somewhere that he wanted Abel to go to SAIA somewhere?
Maybe he had other plans for him and now fears loosing control over Abel.

Yes, but it's just a hint.

http://missmab.com/Comics/Abel_92.php
http://missmab.com/Comics/Abel_94.php

In the first one, he's saying that his plan is to take Abel and leave.  In the second one, he's mentioned Fa'Lina with the implication that his mission has taken too long and he's going to catch it from her.

The inference is that he's going to take Abel to Fa'Lina, or in other words, SAIA. 

Now I could quite possibly have put two and to together and made five, but that's my line of reasoning.  You seem to be suggesting that he's trying to evade or outwit Fa'Lina... frankly I think that's doubtful, or at least doomed to failure if he is some kind of truant.  I guess we'll find out eventually...

[superluser]

Kria has even gone around killing people in built-up areas, with little in the way of repercussions.  What Aniz has done isn't a patch on that.

Sure it is.  He's killed another creature.

Now soul-stealing... I imagine that would cause big trouble.

I doubt it.  Not as much as killing a creature.

http://www.missmab.com/WRY/Bwahaha.jpg

Well, I guess that settles that.  Until you say otherwise, however, I'm going to clutch my theory that the council might refuse (or at least threaten to refuse) to seat the `cubi representatives.  Because that's the sort of thing that would happen on Earth, and that's the only reference that I have to go by.

[Alondro]

*Charline giggles along with Fa'lina*  I concur whole-heartedly!  Hate us all you like, but we cubi are not vulnerable to the simplistic actions of those below us.  We are even better liars than lawyers!  More powerful than the ACLU!  More manipulative than Michael Moore!  And more evil than Bill Gates. 

*Charles gasps!*  Such... horrible power!  There is no hope anymore. 

*Charline continues*  There is only one thing we fear!  Mab's cooking.   

[Tapewolf]

Sure it is.  He's killed another creature.

That almost happened to Abel in the forest.  Besides, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't look like Hennya was much more than a normal Being anyway.

Now soul-stealing... I imagine that would cause big trouble.

I doubt it.  Not as much as killing a creature.

By any sensible definition, killing a creature's soul must be a greater crime than simply killing their body.  (I meant to put soul-eating, by the way)

[Timothy]

Is there a hint somewhere that he wanted Abel to go to SAIA somewhere?
Maybe he had other plans for him and now fears loosing control over Abel.

Yes, but it's just a hint.

http://missmab.com/Comics/Abel_92.php
http://missmab.com/Comics/Abel_94.php

In the first one, he's saying that his plan is to take Abel and leave.  In the second one, he's mentioned Fa'Lina with the implication that his mission has taken too long and he's going to catch it from her.

The inference is that he's going to take Abel to Fa'Lina, or in other words, SAIA. 

Now I could quite possibly have put two and to together and made five, but that's my line of reasoning.  You seem to be suggesting that he's trying to evade or outwit Fa'Lina... frankly I think that's doubtful, or at least doomed to failure if he is some kind of truant.  I guess we'll find out eventually...

Interesting ... Yes I interpreted it the other way around.
That yes he wanted to take Abel with him but that he feared Fa'Lina interfering with his plans.

Time will tell. 

[superluser]

That almost happened to Abel in the forest.  Besides, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't look like Hennya was much more than a normal Being anyway.

I'm sure Hennya's family would disagree.  Also, the situation with Abel in the forest was different for quite a number of reasons.  It was a different jurisdiction--probably an unincorporated area.  It was a free-fire zone.  When the attackers engaged the group, they all appeared to be beings.  I'm probably forgetting some other differences, here.

By any sensible definition, killing a creature's soul must be a greater crime than simply killing their body.  (I meant to put soul-eating, by the way)

Well, eating a creature's soul, yes.  I thought you meant a being's soul.