2007-05-30 [790] Nutmeg enjoys speaking in the third person

[Aridas]

With a little bit of monkey magic, there'll be fireworks tonight. With a little bit of monkey magic, everything will be all right

[Tapewolf]

I didn't mean the E=MC^2 it as the exact rule, but as a parallel idea that I'd recalled being mentioned somewhere in DMFA.  In any case, I believe that Abel's speech was concerning the ability of 'cubi to shapeshift clothing and such onto themselves rather than create matter from nothing.

I still say transmutation is the way to go.

Unlike a lot of fantasy universes, DMFA's setting appears to have a strong science presence that is capable of integrating with magic(Jy's patches), so It could be assumed that there are enough strong parallels to make certain areas of science equivalent to magic, though invoked via a different process.

Like I said, it's a pretty good bet that the physics are similar, otherwise they wouldn't have electronics.  In Perdido Street Station magic is the product of subatomic particles which they refer to as thaumaturgions, and they use this alongside regular physics depending on which is most suitable for the job.  Whether Amber's world-design goes down to that level I have no idea - it's something I'd have glossed over myself unless I needed to write something that used the underlying mechanism as a plot point.

And once more, e=mc² in DMFA is probably relatively easy to work around if you're using magic.  Either that, or they're using a much larger external energy source and can afford the losses.

[kaskar]

 

I didn't mean the E=MC^2 it as the exact rule, but as a parallel idea that I'd recalled being mentioned somewhere in DMFA.  In any case, I believe that Abel's speech was concerning the ability of 'cubi to shapeshift clothing and such onto themselves rather than create matter from nothing.

I still say transmutation is the way to go. ) 

Unlike a lot of fantasy universes, DMFA's setting appears to have a strong science presence that is capable of integrating with magic(Jy's patches), so It could be assumed that there are enough strong parallels to make certain areas of science equivalent to magic, though invoked via a different process.

Like I said, it's a pretty good bet that the physics are similar, otherwise they wouldn't have electronics.  In Perdido Street Station magic is the product of subatomic particles which they refer to as thaumaturgions, and they use this alongside regular physics depending on which is most suitable for the job.  Whether Amber's world-design goes down to that level I have no idea - it's something I'd have glossed over myself unless I needed to write something that used the underlying mechanism as a plot point.And once more, e=mc² in DMFA is probably relatively easy to work around if you're using magic.  Either that, or they're using a much larger external energy source and can afford the losses.

In this parallel universe, magic needs vast powers. Therefore , the equation may not be E=MC^2 but E=MC^3 or higher ...   

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

In this parallel universe, magic needs vast powers. Therefore , the equation may not be E=MC^2 but E=MC^3 or higher ...   

Er. That would increase the energy requirement (and therefore the difficulty of obtaining said energy) immensely. c² is very large - you're talking 299792458 m/s for c, so c² is 8,987,551,783,681,764, give or take a bit. That's a -big- factor. One gram of mass, times that, gives you a whopping big chunk of energy, in units of kg*m²/s², or Joules.

Just to put that in perspective, a Kilowatt-hour (kWh) is 3,600,000 Joules. That's enough power to power a 1000 watt lightbulb for an hour, or a 100 watt lightbulb for ten hours.

1 gram of mass, to be created, by this formula, requires 24,965,421 kWhs of energy. Plus change. To put that another way, Chernobyl put out about 4GW of power. So you'd need the -entire- output of all four reactors at Chernobyl (only one of which melted down)  for more than 6 hours. The largest reactor in the US, at Palo Verde in Arizona, runs at about 3.875GW. ref - you'd need about 6 and a half hours there.

This is for -one- gram. If you wanted a kilogram, you'd need 650 hours, or 4 -weeks-. Or you could take the entire output of the -entire- US nuclear power plant (all 103 or so of them), assuming you could get it into one place, for most of an hour. That is, according to the NEI website, something like 19% of the US power generation capacity. Or you could take the -entire- output of the US power generation net for maybe 5 minutes.

That is an incredible amount of power.

e=mc², remember. And you want to make it -worse- ??

[Netrogo]

Is EVERYONE an astrophysisist these days? Is THIS why I should have paid attention in math class? I got a headache, go sleepy now *passes out*

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I should mention, there's no accounting for loss in transmission, or loss in generation of the mass, or anything like that. And at these numbers, that's a -big- factor...

[Fuyudenki]

you also have to account for the very small binding mass which is used to hold atoms together.  A Helium nucleus is slightly lighter than the four protons and two neutrons that it contains, because some of the mass of the particles gets converted into a binding energy that keeps the nucleus from splattering itself into Hydrogen atoms.(Electrons may be assumed as freebies, since they're stripped off and added onto atoms constantly in everyday life.)

I believe Amber's magic is just magic.  She earlier mentioned that some things in the DMFA universe are concessions to "I know this shouldn't technically work, but in this case, it does," and that sometimes, magic was one of those.  She doesn't like doing it, but she will when the plot requires it.

Remember, the most powerful force in the universe, even greater than love, war, or E=MC^2, is the power of Plot Device.

[Netrogo]

The ever popular 'Cuz I said so' XD

[Naldru]

Regarding the quote "I'm not greedy.  How about a million dolllars.", I may have it.

Was it Dr. Evil in Austin Powers, International Man of Mystery when he was discussing how high to set his blackmail demand.  The other people in the room then explained that, due to inflation, a million dollars didn't go very far.  They then decided to change million to billion.

However, I don't know if it was an American billion (9 zeroes) or a European billion (12 zeroes)

[Netrogo]

Those crazy Europeans have twelve zeroes in their billion? Wtf?

[Tapewolf]

Those crazy Europeans have twelve zeroes in their billion? Wtf?

It was the UK standard when I was a kid.  I don't know who messed with it or why, but in the UK at least everyone uses the US standard now.

And no, we're not astrophysicists (or at least I'm not) but I did do physics at A-level because I had a burning desire to learn about subatomic particles.  However, I would suspect that pretty much all the people involved in the mass-energy discussion are hard-SF fans who've read Niven, Hogan and that sort of thing...

[Netrogo]

I do physics at a level too. F is a level right?

[Tapewolf]

I do physics at a level too. F is a level right?

It means 'Advanced Levels'.

In the UK, you can't go straight from school to university, there is an intermediate step which is usually called 'college', a word I avoided because it seems to mean 'university' in the US. 

School usually runs up until you're 16.  If you get decent grades at that stage (which are known as GCSE) you can go on to college, which lasts two years and if you get decent grades at that (A-levels in my case, although there are others now) you can go on to university and get a degree.

In theory anything after school is optional.  In practice you generally have to go further if you want a decent job.

And I think we are now officially off-topic 

[Netrogo]

Officially yes. However we're not nearly far enough off topic yet. I'm pretty sure we need to get into something involving ninjas before we're successfully far enough off

[Kenji]

Geeze, I leave you guys alone for just a little bit, and this topic goes from bad innuendo to pseudo-science like -that-! 

[Netrogo]

And we're just getting started

[SpottedKitty]

apperantly you forgo the classics, i have yet to read any science fiction book that begins with "call me Ishmael". kudos on confusing me with space pajamas though, thats a new one on me.

I was riffing off the source of Khan's little speech, the original Moby Dick. And the "pajamas" are, of course, the Starfleet uniforms in ST:TMP. Whoever designed them must have been hitting the Romulan ale a bit too much...   

[Whitemagebishieboy]

Ahem.

Technology != Science.
Physics != Science.

Science is a process though which the world is understood. If magic is part of the world, magic will be scientifically studied.

[Kenji]

Yeah, but science used to be:
"This bacteria is smaller than a man and has no city, therefore it is less successful as a species. Now, to find the wizard who cursed our land and people into sickness."

I dunno what brought that on, but I wonder if magic would fall into a science category. Since, in fine detail, there are lots of variables, constants, and so on.

[King Of Hearts]

So long as magic follows rules then it can be considered a science.

[techmaster-glitch]

It really depends on what kind of fantasy setting you are in. Examples:
-In Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura, it is a game where an industrial revolution has occured in a world of magic. Now the world has been divided with the Technologists and the Mages battling for power. In that setting, science and magic are precicely two competely different and incompatible things, if play as a technologist, you get massive penalties if you try to mage, and vice versa.
-On the flip side, in the book series Artemis Fowl, magic is a cosmic force that can be explained in scientific terms, and follows its own scientific physics laws, which very closely interact with the laws of physics already in place, but it is still refered to as "magic"

DMFA, like most fictional settings that have magic and technology coexisting, seems to be giving the impression of something in between. Magic is partially explainable, as any Being who tries to use magic has to actually learn it, wheras the Creatures have instinctive control over it. And as Jyrras has demonstrated, magic and science can be made to work in unison with each other, but I think that the magic is still magic. It does NOT follow any established laws of physics at all, but it does have its own set of rules that govern its use, which is how Jyrras was able to manipulate it (with the help of Mab, of course).
My point is, I personnaly really don't think that E=MC2 has any relevance whatsoever in regards to magic.
Ultimately, it does not matter how YOU define magic, but how the SETTING that the magic is in defines it that really matters.

[terrycloth]

Oh, and on a completely different note, I bet that fae bid on souls by offering to take on more and more responsibility for the fairy race. As queen, Nutmeg has already gone as deeply into debt as it's possible for a fairy to go, and has nothing more to offer.

[Naldru]

Those crazy Europeans have twelve zeroes in their billion? Wtf?

See http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/billion?view=uk

I believe that the NATO standard says not to use the word billion because of the confusion.


*****  *****

Another source of confusion for some is that the French use spaces in large numbers where the British and Americans use commas and commas where we put the decimal point.  That's the reason for some of the strange numeric formats in Microsoft Excel and other packages.  Many stores in Quebec use the French standard.

Many years ago, I was visiting Quebec with my wife and daughter.  My daughter saw 2,00 as the price of a cheeseburger and thought that it was two thousand dollars.  She was afraid that we were going to starve to death because we couldn't afford the food.  (She was much younger then.)

[Aleolus]

Wow, I wonder where Mab's pulling all these weapons from.  After all, that is not the same spear she stabbed Nutmeg with last time we saw one poking through her chest.  I wonder how long it will take for Mab to get all of her anger out and let it go?

[Valynth]

Those crazy Europeans have twelve zeroes in their billion? Wtf?

It was the UK standard when I was a kid.  I don't know who messed with it or why, but in the UK at least everyone uses the US standard now.

And no, we're not astrophysicists (or at least I'm not) but I did do physics at A-level because I had a burning desire to learn about subatomic particles.  However, I would suspect that pretty much all the people involved in the mass-energy discussion are hard-SF fans who've read Niven, Hogan and that sort of thing...

So what unit did you use between the billion-million mark?

[Naldru]

Wow, I wonder where Mab's pulling all these weapons from.  After all, that is not the same spear she stabbed Nutmeg with last time we saw one poking through her chest.  I wonder how long it will take for Mab to get all of her anger out and let it go?

About the same time, the people of Georgia in the USA forgive General Tecumsah Sherman for his march during the civil war from Atlanta to the sea.

As for how long Mab can keep getting weapons, she doesn't have much trouble getting hold of things.

http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_431.php

[Tapewolf]

So what unit did you use between the billion-million mark?

We just called it a thousand million, I think.  I can't really remember.

[Rafe]

Wow, I wonder where Mab's pulling all these weapons from.  After all, that is not the same spear she stabbed Nutmeg with last time we saw one poking through her chest....

Allow me to introduce you to a concept first developed in the 1940's by Robert Clampett and Tex Avery to explain the sudden appearance of weapons in the animation of that time.  Whenever a character like Bugs Bunny or Screwy Squirrel needed a weapon,  they could just reach behind themselves and one would appear from "hammerspace". 

It is worth noting that hammerspace and hammertime are not related.  Hammertime appeared sometime in the 1980's and involves dancing and parachute pants.

[terrycloth]

So what unit did you use between the billion-million mark?

We just called it a thousand million, I think.  I can't really remember.

I've heard 'millard'. That's what Heinlein used; I thought it was supposed to be a weird affectation from an alternate universe, and maybe it was, but it might be the old british unit thing.

[Netrogo]

I suddenly have this mental image of Nutmeg and Mab wearing parachute pants and dancing poorly.

On a side note, *ahem* WHOOOO broke 100 posts!