Netami's Religion Thread

[Darkmoon]

My reason for asking, and ER touched upon this, is that anyone that SAYS they have an open mind have to be willing to admit that the other side (or ANY other side) could be right. I will admit, just like ER did, that I could be wrong. There could be a God, and he could be a spiteful bugger. That doesn't mean I'm going to really change the way I live, but I can say I'm willing to admit it's a possibility.

However, those that can't admit the other side could be right, as in those with a religion being unable to state that the "atheists" could be right, really shouldn't be taking part in a religious debate. They can't debate the issue at hand, they can only regurgitate their beliefs.

[superluser]

My reason for asking, and ER touched upon this, is that anyone that SAYS they have an open mind have to be willing to admit that the other side (or ANY other side) could be right.

What if I admit that you could be right, and that by definition I can't be sure about what happens after I die, but feel very strongly that there is a god, and that it would be virtually impossible to change my mind?

If I could be sure that there was a god, then I'd probably be out there making with the forced conversions, but I understand that all of this is based on personal experience and private revelation, and that certainty isn't something that we have the luxury of in this life.

I'm constantly looking and reevaluating my beliefs, but I know in my heart of hearts that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Does that make me open minded or not?

[Amber Williams]

I gotta say my mind is pretty closed.  Cause really...I respect individual opinions but I just can't honestly consider the world being flat.  With all the technological breakthroughs and various bits of evidence (that extends thousands of years in some cases), the concept of the world being flat is just too much for me to take seriously.

[Stygian]

My reason for asking, and ER touched upon this, is that anyone that SAYS they have an open mind have to be willing to admit that the other side (or ANY other side) could be right. I will admit, just like ER did, that I could be wrong. There could be a God, and he could be a spiteful bugger. That doesn't mean I'm going to really change the way I live, but I can say I'm willing to admit it's a possibility.

However, those that can't admit the other side could be right, as in those with a religion being unable to state that the "atheists" could be right, really shouldn't be taking part in a religious debate. They can't debate the issue at hand, they can only regurgitate their beliefs.

Of course. That might seem logical... However, more usefully, actually comparing and using the others' beliefs, or opinion, to further one's own point is of course a very good rhetorical tactic...

There are certain things that you simply cannot agree with, or compare to. The only thing that really matters, to me, is that you understand. Because once you do, you can begin to break down, analyze, and use what you understand. Now, whether that is the nature of existence or religious people...

It is possible and probable that people, and not natural phenomena or causality or the (non)existence of God, will be what ultimately baffles one most in the end. Other things just tend to be, while some people...

[Darkmoon]

My reason for asking, and ER touched upon this, is that anyone that SAYS they have an open mind have to be willing to admit that the other side (or ANY other side) could be right. I will admit, just like ER did, that I could be wrong. There could be a God, and he could be a spiteful bugger. That doesn't mean I'm going to really change the way I live, but I can say I'm willing to admit it's a possibility.

However, those that can't admit the other side could be right, as in those with a religion being unable to state that the "atheists" could be right, really shouldn't be taking part in a religious debate. They can't debate the issue at hand, they can only regurgitate their beliefs.

Of course. That might seem logical... However, more usefully, actually comparing and using the others' beliefs, or opinion, to further one's own point is of course a very good rhetorical tactic...

There are certain things that you simply cannot agree with, or compare to. The only thing that really matters, to me, is that you understand. Because once you do, you can begin to break down, analyze, and use what you understand. Now, whether that is the nature of existence or religious people...

It is possible and probable that people, and not natural phenomena or causality or the (non)existence of God, will be what ultimately baffles one most in the end. Other things just tend to be, while some people...

I debate your point. I like to think of myself as an open-minded person. Do I think the Christians could be right about the afterlife? Sure. I'm willing to state that they could be, as could the Jews about the afterlife, the Hindu, Taoists, even the crazy suicidal Muslims with the 99 naked virgins waiting for them at the end of the road.

I doubt they're right, but for all I know, I can't prove it. There's no empirical evidence to say they're wrong, so my mind stays open on the matter... and hell, if I'm gonna be wrong on any count, let it be about 99 naked virgins.

Things I can say I don't agree with:

The world being flat - I seriously can't believe any one would believe this, because there's proof it's wrong.

Creationism - The world is more than 6000 years old, dinosaurs were not planted in the soil by the Devil, and humans came from monkeys. There's proof on most all of this, and before we get into a debate about evolution, it's called the "Theory of Evolution" in scinetific circles because it's got enough scientific proof behind it to be acknowledged as a scientific. If there was no science to back it up, it wouldn't be a theory, it'd just be a crazy idea some dud had when he got stoned.

The religion matters - It's not what you believe, but simply that you exploer the world, learn, and in the end, take what you've learned and let your soul grow.

If you lock yourself into one set of beliefs and can't think outside that set, where's the growth? Where's the ability to let you soul become more than it is?

[superluser]

Things I can say I don't agree with:

...

Creationism

Ooh!  Do you lump Intelligent Design into that?

Because I think that needs to be taken out and ridiculed separately.  Because then we have two nutter theories to laugh at, not just one.

[Darkmoon]

I usually lump them together. However, if you want to take on each separately, that's your right.

[Reese Tora]

Personally, I don't see where all these intelegent design and creationism people get the idea that evolution and thier beliefs are incompatable.

The Theory of Evolution says things adapt so as to better survive, more efficiently function, that's it.

Intelegent design and creationism say that god (or a god) willfullt created life, the universe, and everything.

Nowhere does it say specifically how god created everything (except the whole rib thing with Eve), and everything in the bible can be interpreted within the structure of what science currently believes.

*completely random thought... will various religeous entities speak out against Spore, claiming that it "unfairly" supports evolution, or praise it as an example of intelegently guided evolution, supporting Intelegent design?*

[superluser]

I usually lump them together. However, if you want to take on each separately, that's your right.

Well, Creationism is internally consistent, and merely requires denying all evidence to the contrary.

Intelligent Design requires suspending all logic and declaring that whatever disproves your theory actually proves it.

Earlier, you said that it's possible that the other side is right.  By extension, it's entirely possible that Creationism is right and the dinosaur bones were placed there by the devil.

But based on the evidence that we have so far, it's not possible that Intelligent Design is right.

(Actually, modern Creationists don't claim that the dinosaur bones were placed in the earth by the devil.  They claim that Adam and Eve were in Eden with the dinosaurs 6000 years ago.)

[thegayhare]

*completely random thought... will various religeous entities speak out against Spore, claiming that it "unfairly" supports evolution, or praise it as an example of intelegently guided evolution, supporting Intelegent design?*

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=199

[Brunhidden]

i am still upset that most people cannot tell the diffrence between evolution and evolutionisim.

evolution states that living things change over time. its proven, can be described as either 'survival of the fittest' or simply anything that can survive to breed passes its traits to its young and those that don't die,  and can be demonstrated in laboratory settings reliably. evolution is compatible with any deity and any faith other then 'bloody stupid and don't wanna listen'

evolutionisim states that man evolved from apes and all life can be traced back to single celled organisms. this usually contradicts the creation stories of most known religions. Darwin himself was appalled at this idea, and was a strong believer of creationism.

which one you believe is a matter of choice, but please keep your mind open before snapping at either. a growing number of scientists are reaching the conclusion that some form of divine entity exists, and that it exists in harmony with the science instead of in conflict.

Dry clean only

[Darkmoon]

which one you believe is a matter of choice, but please keep your mind open before snapping at either. a growing number of scientists are reaching the conclusion that some form of divine entity exists, and that it exists in harmony with the science instead of in conflict.

How many of them are simply trying to justify their science to their religion?

Actually, modern Creationists don't claim that the dinosaur bones were placed in the earth by the devil.  They claim that Adam and Eve were in Eden with the dinosaurs 6000 years ago.

That requires to suppositions that fly in the face of current scientific evidence:

1) That the earth is only 6000 year old.
2) That dinosaurs existed on this planet at the same time man did.

Unless you (not superluser specifically, just people that think this) really have the wool pulled over your eyes, you have to realize that science has disproved that

[superluser]

i am still upset that most people cannot tell the diffrence between evolution and evolutionisim.

I usually hear that distinction as microevolution vs macroevolution.

Microevolution is the theory (like plate tectonics is a theory) that a single species can evolve over time and turn itself into something radically different.  For example, giraffes probably originally had shorter necks, but through natural selection, they now have extremely long necks.  There is an enormous amount of evidence backing up microevolution, and I walk away from debates with those who would deny it, since they probably couldn't be convinced that Stephen Jay Gould wasn't the antichrist.

Macroevolution is the theory (like General Relativity is a theory) that one species can evolve into one or more completely different species, incapable of interbreeding with the ancestor.  For example, Australopithecus afarensis evolving into Homo habilis, and then eventually Homo sapiens.  Until recently, there was very little evidence to support this (mainly H. habilis fossils end where H. erectus fossils begin, and that could be coincidence), but in the past 20 or so years, we have found significant evidence for it.  I can deal with people who don't believe in macroevolution because a lot of the evidence is new and just being evaluated.

And then there's gradualism/punctuated equilibrium.  I'll save that for another day.

That requires to suppositions that fly in the face of current scientific evidence:

1) That the earth is only 6000 year old.
2) That dinosaurs existed on this planet at the same time man did.

It's most common to see them claim that carbon dating is wrong.  After all, if the Earth must be 6000 years old, then carbon dating must be wrong, and the dinosaurs had to live with Adam and Eve--they were created on the same day.

(By the way, in case I haven't made myself clear, I believe that the universe is about 13B years old, the Earth is about 4B years old, life on Earth is about 2B years old, and that man descended from A. afarensis about 2M years ago, and evolved into H. s. sapiens about 50,000 years ago)

[Knight]

I think that if there really is a god-thing (I use that for lack of a better description) out there, it's so unfathomable and unlogical by our limited standards that even a hint of it's purpose couldn't be put in an instruction manual used by jews, then raped and pimped by the catholic, then protestant church.

In other words, if it's out there, as unlikely as that is to me, it's even more unlikely in my eyes it's something we ever touched upon.

I compare this to an example I use to myself in a way to keep my mind peaceful of "Trying my hardest to determine the furthest star from Earth". 

In other words, the further it is from us, and the harder we try to determine it's distance with insufficient abilities when we don't even really need to; the more we waste our time and screw up our minds and lives, which can be used for better, already discernable, recognitions and learnings.

When I walk out and look up at the sky and see three deities booming down three different messages (monty python style) directly at me, I'll stop and think it over, but I'm not going to try to figure it out with nothing but anecdotes.  The only conclusion I reach from what we have now is Atheism, and that's satisfactory to me.

[RJ]

My mind is pretty closed on what I've been brought up on, but it still doesn't mean I can't be nice to people

[Knight]

I knew a girl that stringently claimed to be Baha'i once, even though she didn't really understand it, simply because her parents raised her up on it.  She even tried to celebrate the holidays and shit by abstaining from meat/socks/whatever, and when asked why she was bothering she got real defensive even though she couldn't explain it.

I made her cry a few times.

[Brunhidden]

in the olden days a child was baptized when they were about 12 or so, NOT at birth. this is better because you first taught the child about the religion and gave them the option of joining of their own free will when they were informed about the choice. however they were given only one choice and inevitably everyone chose baptism because the alternative was being labeled as a pagan, but the philosophy still stands.

FYI- the practice of baptizing infants started because people were afraid that the fey would steal the child or lay a curse on them. baptism would stop this apperantly and parents kept vigil all night to make sure the baby never left their sight before baptism for fear of little men.

my daughter is two and a half years old, she is not baptized despite my mother insisting we do so. we shall make sure our daughter learns about pretty much all the religions (i hate to say 'except the stupid ones' but if you get around enough you find there are some reaaaaaly dumb ones out there) and it shall be her own choice as to what religion she is. this is largely because a great many atheists are created when their parents force them onto religion, or rather forcing their kids into THEIR version of it instead of letting the child find it for themselves. its shocking how different individuals think the same religion is, many is the person who does evil and stupidity with the bible as an excuse and many is the person who finds love and enlightenment.

my wife strongly hopes our daughter decides to worship the Aesir, and i think thats pretty cool.

There is a vitality, a life force, an energy, a quickening, that is translated through you into action, and because there is only one of you in all time, this expression is unique. And if you block it, it will never exist through any other medium and will be lost.

[Reese Tora]

It's most common to see them claim that carbon dating is wrong.  After all, if the Earth must be 6000 years old, then carbon dating must be wrong, and the dinosaurs had to live with Adam and Eve--they were created on the same day.

(By the way, in case I haven't made myself clear, I believe that the universe is about 13B years old, the Earth is about 4B years old, life on Earth is about 2B years old, and that man descended from A. afarensis about 2M years ago, and evolved into H. s. sapiens about 50,000 years ago)

Never mind that 'day' is a minor mistranslation of a more general term that means 'time period.'

I think the only bible I'd ever trust to be literally correct would be an original copy in the original language... which I can't speak or read, so i'll never know.

[superluser]

FYI- the practice of baptizing infants started because people were afraid that the fey would steal the child or lay a curse on them. baptism would stop this apperantly and parents kept vigil all night to make sure the baby never left their sight before baptism for fear of little men.

We do, however, find reference to infant baptism in Origen (185-254), Cyprian (?-258) and there are a few references to baptising a person and all in the household in Acts and one of Paul's letters, which was going on before 67 AD.

[Darkmoon]

Mmm, baby in water... a little gralic, some onions... peppers, mushrooms, a little bacon for flavor...

Baby stew. Nummies.

[Brunhidden]

why else would the fey want them so badly?

It's an explosion of flavor. I'm working with some very unstable herbs.

[Aridas]

Darkmoon has my mouth watering with just the mere mention of it. I think I'll have some tonight.

[Brunhidden]

Holy water, however, tastes horrid. and the chrism flavor never goes away- blehk!

I shall hug you and squeeze you and call you George.

[Caswin]

Personally, I don't see where all these intelegent design and creationism people get the idea that evolution and thier beliefs are incompatable.

The Theory of Evolution says things adapt so as to better survive, more efficiently function, that's it.

Intelegent design and creationism say that god (or a god) willfullt created life, the universe, and everything.

Nowhere does it say specifically how god created everything (except the whole rib thing with Eve), and everything in the bible can be interpreted within the structure of what science currently believes.

Thank you.

They just kept repeating it over and over in that Simpsons episode as though it were something to take for granted.  Grah.

[Brunhidden]

Just think how uneducated and uninteligent the early humans were when they first experienced anything resembling religon, it would probably go something like this.

God- Lo, mortal, bask in my glory for I bring you goodness and light!

Mortal- hiya!

God- Do you like the bananas? they took freaking forever to make.

Mortal- Really? they don't look all that complicated. I bet you could make, like, fifty of them in a minute.

God- Not really, I had to start with some plankton and keep tweaking it for a few centuries until it got advanced enough to support itself and provide some tasty extra matter. Its got phosphorous.

Mortal- huh?

God- You don't think I just go *snap* and make something new do you? I mean, I CAN but it doesn't work very well. it takes a long time of revisions and upgrades to make sure everything works in its surroundings and fits well in its designated role. Take you for example, primates weren't smart enough to be given a soul until two months ago, but I've been upgrading you sinse you were pretty much a chipmunk. I had high hopes for the dolphins, but they're too fixated on fish.

Mortal- err...I should worship the monkey?

God- How about I just say I made you out of dirt, does that work?

Mortal- makes sense to me!

God- Hoy! these little buggers give me a headache.... I'll send people down every now and again to make sure you guys figure stuff out for yourselves, okay?

Mortal- *sacrifices goat*

God- Stop that! Its annoying and a waste of good gyro meat.

Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.

[Zedd]

You know..You should do stand up Muse...Your killing me...It will be your fault I laughed to death by your dry jokes

[Knight]

When creationists get all riled up over theory of evolution, pointing to the "made in my image" part of the bible, I just ask them how they know God isn't a monkey.

It doesn't usually calm them.

[Brunhidden]

the 'created in my image' is always a tricky statement, because most likely it means having the light of reason instead of how you look...cause lets face it, people look nothing like each other.

i believe any supreme being will only look like a person if we will it to, otherwise any divine being is just a floating manifestation, think 'the force' in the way it permeates all things and is everywhere.

Practice and thought might gradually forge many an art.

[GabrielsThoughts]

here's my question, what difference does it make how we got here?

Weather we evolved, were created by God,  or if some omnipotent alien lifeform grew us in a test tube and dropped us off on this planet, how does it change our view of humanity, humans are humans, if our entire species were to die off tomorrow or a hundred  thousand years from now we'd still be human only our bodies would be adapted to whatever environment we were placed in.

for instance, a dog remains a dog regardless of what breed it is. A Chihuahua is a dog and so is a Great Dane, I could also make the argument that wolves are canines therefore not a different species. 

Dolphins have populated the globe hand have many different varieties ranging from bottlenose, to pink, and beyond, and yet they remain dolphins.

All living things die, people are forgotten, and and the wages of all sin is death.

[Brunhidden]

There is a school of thought that states it is irrelavent which happened, it goes like this.

1-either god or evolution creates humans, man exists for a time as an incredibly dumb creature afraid of lightning.

2- humans believe in god, the act of believing in god creates god. regardless of whether humans were originally created by god, due to gods current existence he always was.

3- humans disbelieve in god, thus god dwindles. regardless of whether god originally created man history changes itself to conform to the incredible power of the belief of 3 or 4 trillion humans

4- repeat steps 2, 3, and every few apocalypses repeat step 1

The problem with political jokes is they get elected.