Council Confusion

[techmaster-glitch]

(man, I hope I don't get flamed to hell if this is a noob question, or if it has been discussed already and I missed it while browsing the old threads... )
Just a little somthin'-somethin' that's been bugging me... the Creature Council and the Creature-Being Council... are they realy two completely different councils, or are they the same? I'm pretty sure they are different, but i want to be completly sure. (the following statements will run on that assumption, until said otherwise) When Mikelo was doing the fun facts about Furrae, I gather that it is the Creature-Being Council that is shown, and from context, they seem to handle Creature-Being legal issues(obviously). The Creature Council that takes interest in Jyrras seems to handle shady inter-Creature issuses and possible Being threats. While from just this information, I am 100% sure the two councils are separate, (with the Creature Council also seeming to be a secret one) this is the one thing that knocks me down to 99% sure. I think there is a Being on the Creature Council, and I do believe that it is none other than Biggs himself. This, and this seem to support that conclusion. While it actually does make sense, the leader of the dreaded Twinks having a seat on the Creature Council, the thing that throws me off is if the two councils have accidentally or mistakenly been used interchangeably.

The two councils seem to handle completly different issues, and, heck, the Creature Council seems to be something most people arn't even supposed to know about, a big contrast from the Creature-Being Council. Based on all availiable information, it would seem that I already know the answer to this question, but... It. Just. Won't. Stop. Nagging. Me. (especially if I ever actually do the fanfic that I'm drafting in my head, I don't want to say the councils are separate when there is the uncertainty that they arn't, and end up getting cursed out as a noob )

Ok, my apologies, sorry for wasting everyone's time with this.

*braces self for possible flame outbreak*

[Tapewolf]

The two councils seem to handle completly different issues, and, heck, the Creature Council seems to be something most people arn't even supposed to know about, a big contrast from the Creature-Being Council.

I'm assuming (from the fact that they have their sessions in darkness if nothing else) that the 'Creature Council' is a secret organisation.  It may consist of members of the Being-Creature Council - we don't know - but since the CC seems to be afraid of Beings I'm convinced they have different agendas.

Biggs is the interesting one as you say, but it's possible that he's a corrupt Being who is sympathetic to their causes (or greedy enough to have sold out to them).

That's my guess, anyway.

[kaskar]

            Also, Biggs would now have met Alexi. Alexi is a powerful convincing force at the bar. A bit of 'persuasion' could go a long way in guiding yarras from the bar, and not by force.

[Tezkat]

The Creature Council can't be a very well-kept secret. While it might not necessarily be common knowledge in Being circles, and their meetings are cloaked in darkness, the wording of the Demonologies implies that the organization itself has very broad recognition among Creature races. It's like a UN for Creatures. It only looks like a social club for powers that be trying to control the world from behind the scenes because... well... that's precisely the position that Creatures hold in the Being world anyway. 

Furthermore, information in the Demonologies and Amber's posts suggests that the Creature Council predates the Creature-Being Council by many, many years. Amber regularly speaks of councils in the plural, indicating more than one.


Despite superficial similarities (i.e. the hairstyle and headband), I doubt that that particular member of the Creature Council is Biggs. He's much too large, and the face/ears are the wrong shape. Not only is he a Being, but sitting two seats away from the Dragon representative must be just a teeny bit awkward given his agenda.

That line from 479 is a good catch, though. Naturally, we can assume that they've crossed paths--Kria is a demon-for-hire, and Biggs used to employ her daughter--but I believe that it's the only solid reference connecting Kria and Biggs.

[Nino]

The Creature Council can't be a very well-kept secret. While it might not necessarily be common knowledge in Being circles, and their meetings are cloaked in darkness, the wording of the Demonologies implies that the organization itself has very broad recognition among Creature races. It's like a UN for Creatures. It only looks like a social club for powers that be trying to control the world from behind the scenes because... well... that's precisely the position that Creatures hold in the Being world anyway. 

Furthermore, information in the Demonologies and Amber's posts suggests that the Creature Council predates the Creature-Being Council by many, many years. Amber regularly speaks of councils in the plural, indicating more than one.


Despite superficial similarities (i.e. the hairstyle and headband), I doubt that that particular member of the Creature Council is Biggs. He's much too large, and the face/ears are the wrong shape. Not only is he a Being, but sitting two seats away from the Dragon representative must be just a teeny bit awkward given his agenda.

That line from 479 is a good catch, though. Naturally, we can assume that they've crossed paths--Kria is a demon-for-hire, and Biggs used to employ her daughter--but I believe that it's the only solid reference connecting Kria and Biggs.

I don't know, that amulet sure reminds me of what Biggs has. Who knows, Amber might have Wildy and Biggs secretly be Weres (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/were.php) or some other creature. Wildy does have a human fascination and after all, she did warp her tail (the explanation given for this doesn't seem to make much sense in present-day DMFA).

[Aridas]

I don't know, that amulet sure reminds me of what Biggs has. Who knows, Amber might have Wildy and Biggs secretly be Weres (http://www.missmab.com/Demo/were.php) or some other creature. Wildy does have a human fascination and after all, she did warp her tail (the explanation given for this doesn't seem to make much sense in present-day DMFA).

But weres don't shapeshift, so that's right out the window. They can't change their body parts.

[Aurawyn]

I am pretty sure that there are two councils.. the older Creature council and the newer Being/Creature Council..

I noticed Kira's comment about Biggs in 479 the other day while I was re-reading old strips and meant to comment about it actually, but never got around to it..

As for "Biggs" being only a few seats away from the Dragon rep... Who says the dragons know Biggs has ill intent for the at all?  Also.. remember this is art.. so it is possible thats hes just drawn slightly differently.. As I recall, and I could be wrong,  Biggs has only appeared in the strip twice.. Back in  85-90 and then again 713-726, so there is bound to be changes...

Unless amber says otherwise.. I choose to believe tha6 Biggs is on the creature council, given the evidence I have seen.

[techmaster-glitch]

The Creature Council can't be a very well-kept secret. While it might not necessarily be common knowledge in Being circles, and their meetings are cloaked in darkness, the wording of the Demonologies implies that the organization itself has very broad recognition among Creature races. It's like a UN for Creatures. It only looks like a social club for powers that be trying to control the world from behind the scenes because... well... that's precisely the position that Creatures hold in the Being world anyway. 

My thoughts exactly. To me, the Creature Council seems to be something the majority of Beings are unaware of, but the majority of Creatures are aware of it.

Wildy does have a human fascination and after all, she did warp her tail (the explanation given for this doesn't seem to make much sense in present-day DMFA).

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. She got an offer for a free mail-order tail, and took up on it. If you are thinking of patches, they are actually quite expensive, and if Wildy was just going to change her tail, just attaching a new one is alot cheaper and less of a hassel than getting a patch.

Wildy being a Were... that would account for a fair amount of things... but we don't actually have any reference evidence, so nothing even slightly conclusive can be said either way.

Not only is he a Being, but sitting two seats away from the Dragon representative must be just a teeny bit awkward given his agenda.

As for "Biggs" being only a few seats away from the Dragon rep... Who says the dragons know Biggs has ill intent for the at all?

Seriously, if the dragons knew that Biggs was planning something that would "end" their race, I can say with utmost confidence that he would not be breathing anymore.

Also.. remember this is art.. so it is possible thats hes just drawn slightly differently.. As I recall, and I could be wrong,  Biggs has only appeared in the strip twice.. Back in  85-90 and then again 713-726, so there is bound to be changes...

A very good point. Not counting Biggs' "secret" appearance on the Creature Council, there have been almost 600 comics in between his appearances. Counting it, it goes something like this:
Biggs' first appearance: the twink adventure.
Fast forward about 300 comics,
second appearance: the Creature Council chamber.
fast forward another 300 comics
Third appearance: the "plotting" segment.

Given how much other characters have changed over time, I would have to say that Biggs' character would undergo the most changes with Amber's art drawing, because he has been seen probably less than any other character, and with the most time in between apperances. I mean, compare the old Biggs model with the currrent Biggs model. Theyalmost look like different people entirely, becuase Amber's art has changed and improved so much. If that really is Biggs in the council chamber, don't be surprised if he doesn't look exactly like the modern Biggs.

[Nino]

Wildy does have a human fascination and after all, she did warp her tail (the explanation given for this doesn't seem to make much sense in present-day DMFA).

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. She got an offer for a free mail-order tail, and took up on it.

Wait, are you serious? Did you seriously say that? I can't believe you really meant that (hint: tails have bones).

Oh wait, look. I just got an offer for a free mail-order arm. I'll just cut off the one I currently have and attach it. I've always wanted blue skin.

Patches, on the other hand, make sense. I hadn't thought of that.

[thegayhare]

Of course the creature council could be dismissed as an urban myth like most modern folks treat roumers of the illuminati, the new world order, black helecopters and the like

[Tapewolf]

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. She got an offer for a free mail-order tail, and took up on it.

Wait, are you serious? Did you seriously say that? I can't believe you really meant that (hint: tails have bones).

It was a coupon for cosmetic surgery.  Alexsi seemed to regard this as normal, and in a world where RJ can reattach wings by passing her hand over them, it probably would be.

[techmaster-glitch]

It was a coupon for cosmetic surgery. 

Yeah, that. Sorry about the misunderstanding Kattuccino, I didn't word my post correctly. That's my bad. My fault entirely.

Of course the creature council could be dismissed as an urban myth like most modern folks treat roumers of the illuminati, the new world order, black helecopters and the like

That is a very good point, TheGayHare. It could be that too.

[Nino]

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. She got an offer for a free mail-order tail, and took up on it.

Wait, are you serious? Did you seriously say that? I can't believe you really meant that (hint: tails have bones).

It was a coupon for cosmetic surgery.  Alexsi seemed to regard this as normal, and in a world where RJ can reattach wings by passing her hand over them, it probably would be.

Ah okay, that makes more since. Sorry, I should have known that, but it's been a long time since I've read the archives.

[Tezkat]

Seriously, if the dragons knew that Biggs was planning something that would "end" their race, I can say with utmost confidence that he would not be breathing anymore.

We don't really know how dragons think... or even that much about the history of conflicts between them and other races. We do know that they aren't very well liked. They're sufficiently powerful (and likely complacent) that they don't need to take such threats seriously, especially from a Being. For all we know, they have full knowledge of his plans and are running a betting pool on how long this latest dragon slayer will last before someone gets bored of his antics and eats him.

Given how much other characters have changed over time, I would have to say that Biggs' character would undergo the most changes with Amber's art drawing, because he has been seen probably less than any other character, and with the most time in between apperances. I mean, compare the old Biggs model with the currrent Biggs model. Theyalmost look like different people entirely, becuase Amber's art has changed and improved so much. If that really is Biggs in the council chamber, don't be surprised if he doesn't look exactly like the modern Biggs.

You guys aren't giving Amber enough credit. Her art evolution is hardly random. Biggs has evolved along the same templates she uses for Wildy and Jyrras. And it still doesn't explain why he would be as tall as the other members.

[superluser]

We don't really know how dragons think... or even that much about the history of conflicts between them and other races. We do know that they aren't very well liked. They're sufficiently powerful (and likely complacent) that they don't need to take such threats seriously, especially from a Being. For all we know, they have full knowledge of his plans and are running a betting pool on how long this latest dragon slayer will last before someone gets bored of his antics and eats him.

Perhaps not of Biggs, but if you've also got Destania, who can probably call a few dozen aged `cubi to help her and the military of Twink Territories massed against you, that's probably at least at the level of annoying gophers chewing up your lawn.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... And it still doesn't explain why he would be as tall as the other members.

... Stilts?

Perhaps not of Biggs, but if you've also got Destania, who can probably call a few dozen aged `cubi to help her and the military of Twink Territories massed against you, that's probably at least at the level of annoying gophers chewing up your lawn.

Maybe. Depends on if you can get the Cubi to focus long enough. After all... think back to the advice about thinking about legal documents...

[kaskar]

                 Biggs does not have to be large in size. With Destina, his employee representative, and communications equipment, (magical), he could already be well represented . In the creature council meeting, you note that the backlit bunny is like the undead Rachel-Rebecca the 3rd , along with a backlit angel? (  Akaen ) This could mean, with Akaen having so much invested in modern technology, the when and how's of the creature council reactions .

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

kaskar, we're talking about the physical size of the "Biggs" shadow on the Creature Council, as shown in the strip http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_366.php on panel 3. Since his shadow is about the same size as everyone else, it can't be Biggs (See 365 for reference for him next to a Cubi, if you like)

Since all the various Creatures appear to be more or less the same height, that leaves Biggs (who is a good 2-3 feet shorter) out in the cold - despite the way that you can take panel 3 of strip 366, and reverse the image, to pick up an apparent B on a chain around his neck, just like the one that Biggs wears (see him wearing it in 736, just as an example)...

Do attempt to keep up, there. :-)

[techmaster-glitch]

Actually, Biggs doesn't seem about the same size as everyone else to me... I personally think that he is probably sitting on a particularly high chair, that would explain why his head is at about the same hight as everyone else in 365.And, in 366, while everyone elses waist is below the tabel, our mystery person's waist isn't,and not just because he is kicking back. He really does seem shorter. (To me, at least. I could just have bad eyes.)

And if we are talking about the subject of only shadows, the can be exaggerated with magic. If Biggs and Wildy are Weres, as the wild speculation goes, he could easily do it. But, because there is pretty much no evidence that B&W are, or arn't, Weres, that is also just a wild speculation.

[Aurawyn]

And it still doesn't explain why he would be as tall as the other members.

Two words....

Booster Seat...

*snicker*

[Aurawyn]

Actually, Biggs doesn't seem about the same size as everyone else to me... I personally think that he is probably sitting on a particularly high chair, that would explain why his head is at about the same hight as everyone else in 365.And, in 366, while everyone elses waist is below the tabel, our mystery person's waist isn't,and not just because he is kicking back. He really does seem shorter. (To me, at least. I could just have bad eyes.)

Thats a very good point, and I only just now noticed it.. if you look his waist would be much higher then say the Fae next to him, even if he is reclining

[techmaster-glitch]

On the subject of Biggs' plan to "end" the dragons, and weather or not the dragons know about it, i think in the demonology it says that the dragons created themselves an alternate plane similar to the Fae's. In the Wiku-Wiki, it says that Biggs' plan could be to a) destroy that plane(exterminating all dragons) or b) collapse the bridge that links the dragonworld to the normal world(trapping them there). If either of those are the case, and the dragons know about it, I would bet that they would take THAT seriously. And while Pyroduck doesn't seem to hold with the views of the rest of his race, as he is one of the few(possibly ONLY) dragons who won't kill someone from Cyra's clan on sight. Even though that is the case, I would be sure he still has some links to the rest of his race, and if they would know about Biggs' plan, so would he. And even if he doesn't act like the rest of his race, I'm sure he would still feel attached.
My point is, if all that is the case, why didn't he just assasinate Biggs when he had the chance during the Twink adventure?(Or even when rescuing Alexi?) This is why I think that, even if Biggs has some other plan to bring about the end of the dragons, I seriously doubt they actually know about it, or Pyroduck would have done something.

[Tapewolf]

i think in the demonology it says that the dragons created themselves an alternate plane similar to the Fae's.

Actually it says that it's a rumour which no dragon will confirm or deny, but yeah.

[kaskar]

kaskar, we're talking about the physical size of the "Biggs" shadow on the Creature Council, as shown in the strip http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_366.php on panel 3. Since his shadow is about the same size as everyone else, it can't be Biggs (See 365 for reference for him next to a Cubi, if you like)

Since all the various Creatures appear to be more or less the same height, that leaves Biggs (who is a good 2-3 feet shorter) out in the cold - despite the way that you can take panel 3 of strip 366, and reverse the image, to pick up an apparent B on a chain around his neck, just like the one that Biggs wears (see him wearing it in 736, just as an example)...

Do attempt to keep up, there. :-)

Panel 3 , I refer not to Biggs, but the noted Angel, Akaen, who has a notable interest in modern technology, etc ...

[Tezkat]

                 Biggs does not have to be large in size. With Destina, his employee representative, and communications equipment, (magical), he could already be well represented . In the creature council meeting, you note that the backlit bunny is like the undead Rachel-Rebecca the 3rd , along with a backlit angel? (  Akaen ) This could mean, with Akaen having so much invested in modern technology, the when and how's of the creature council reactions .

Huh? There's no Angel shown in the Creature Council scenes. We see a Dragon, a Cubi, a [possibly human-form Were that looks kinda like Biggs], a [could be a Mer simply by elimination, though it's hard to tell], a Fae, a Phoenix (oracle type), a Mythos, an Insectis, and an Undead. Plus whoever's holding Jy's handheld (maybe a Demon? Given the direction of the light, it could be the Mythos. It's certainly not Akaen--the hands are wrong).

Akaen is the Creature-Being Council representative for the Angels. We don't know whether he sits on this council as well. The Creature next to which Rachel-Rebecca III is standing is very clearly an Insectis.

[Amber Williams]

 

[thegayhare]

*gives cookies to the evil lady*

[luiqui]

It's Hawru guys, not Biggs. In her human form, no less. Seriously. Compare the Demo 101 entry to comic #366, and notice how they look exactly the same, from face shape to hair to that headband to having a shiny amulet.

Raargh! Incorrect speculation must die! ...That, or I like being a smartass.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

It's Hawru guys, not Biggs. In her human form, no less. Seriously. Compare the Demo 101 entry to comic #366, and notice how they look exactly the same, from face shape to hair to that headband to having a shiny amulet.

Raargh! Incorrect speculation must die! ...That, or I like being a smartass.

I think you mean Hahwru, no?

:-]

[Aridas]

I'm fine, thank you.