03/09/07 [#759] Feelings

[Sirios Skywolf]

Dora bi? I can see where you'd get that; sadly that only works with things she's said, not in actual practice. Sorry to start getting nuts and bolts on you, but talking humourously about female sexuality (or making pseudo-sexual comments) doesn't really qualify as bi behavior (Note: I'm not debating the others mentioned, as that's all very true. I just think that if we're going to go looking for alternative lifestyle characters, it should be practicing members of the lifestyle, not speculative ones)

[Amber Williams]

One might say that it is a lot easier to pick out instances where there are prominent gay characters than without.  Sort of like how people always make the joke about the phone always ringing when they are in the shower.  Because how many times do people remember the showers they take where the phone doesnt ring?  Likewise, its a lot easier to recall and point out comics that feature a predominant gay character versus comics that have an all straight cast and never make mention of it.

I got to agree with Zina that it is a bit of a tall order. If I was to only write was I was familiar with, I'd have simply an "Amber and Fluffy" marathon instead of a comic about several varying characters.  One of the challenges one takes when being an author is that we get to try to make characters that are uniquely separate from ourselves and our own opinions.  It may not all be amazing successes, but what is the point of engaging in a creative medium if you only stick to your comfort zone.

In all honestly Kattuccino, and I apologize if I am stepping out of bounds and talking smack, it sounds more like you have a beef with fangirls/fanboys than you do with the medium of gays or lesbians in the comic.  A couple times in your prior posts, it sounded like you were trying to basically say that people who write gay characters of an opposite gender(triply so if they are couples) are either A)incapable of doing it to a standard you have set and/or  B)doing so for fanboy/fangirl reasonings.  And to some extent, it sounds more like you have been jaded by prior experiences and it has caused you to be on the defense.  And also to make some pretty grand-sweeping accusations.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

On Vinci and Arty made by Candi Dewalt   The comic is ment to be a PG rating... So, Yes the main characters are a couple, but most of her jokes do not concentrate on their "gay" relationship.  Some jokes can be any loving relationship. 

And authors of either sex can have insight into any relationships, sometimes more so if they are on outside looking in.  I also know that the stereotypical "gay" on tv, are only 10-25% of the gay population, but hey, every groups has their own subgroup of fruits and nuts.

***
Now, Loving relationships have gender roles(male/female), which one or both partners will take on or share and switch depending on the situations or experiences that a couple shares, and on the personalities in the relationship.   And I find that some homosexuals sometimes fool themselves when they don't see this is the case in most relationships.

to the comic.
Jy Jy love Lorenda but it fits his personality that he doesn't want to hurt her and tell her that he is in love with another male. I have a feeling Lorenda and Kria may catch him in the act of "dating" with Abel.....lol. 

PBH

[Zedd]

Yet only what Kira wants people to die a slow painful death! *Kefka laugh*

[Nino]

Actually, to some of you, you're really taking what I've said out of context.

First of all, Max Powers IS gay. Brent and the other guy (I'm horrible with names if you couldn't tell) were purposely misleading the girl. When she tried to kiss Max she got fired.

Dora seemed more bi to me when the comic started and I think it's something the author gradually shifted to more of a joke thing. Otherwise, Faye's sister is a lesbian also (forgot to mention her).

You know what, nevermind. Read my response if you care but I don't really want to say anything more. I have my opinion, you guys have your's, why don't we just agree to disagree?

Anyway, it's not that I think that women shouldn't make gays in their comic, but that when they make them main characters it always ends up a little unrealistic. I wasn't attacking Vinci and Arti, that's a cute comic and I used to actually keep up with it until it went on some big hiatus and I lost patience, but it does seem to be unrealistic. Yes, gays all have different relationships, but MOST of those that I have seen do have common tendencies.

Before anyway starts calling me homophobic I want to say that my roommate is a gay guy and one of my best friends is a m to f transexual. Just wanted to get that out there.

Anyway, guys in general ARE less sensitive than women, less romantic, somewhat more practical, and tend to be a lot less loyal/more oppertunistic (hence why there is a big HIV problem in gay communities -- generally in relationships it is the woman who stops the man from cheating). Yes, there are gays who are completely dedicated to their partner, but from what I've seen women imagine them acting like...well, women. And they're not women.

The difference from a female author creating a male main character and creating a gay couple main character is that women know how hetero men act, they don't try to idealize. Amber was correct in assuming that one of my main beefs was with Japanese shonen-ai. You might as well make the charcters women with male parts... they even LOOK like women.

http://avatar.smackjeeves.com/

This is the kind of comic I am talking about. Completely boring characters: they are all attractive, all the same body type, age, etc. There's the blonde-haired blue-eyed softspoken guy, the angsty dark, brooding guy, etc. This is the kind of comic that I really can't stand. It's fine if you like that kind of thing, and the art is wonderful, but I don't.

Anyway I'd like you to read my post again and realize what I am saying. NOWHERE did I say that comics like Vinci and Arti or Girly wouldn't appeal to anyone or that they shouldn't exist. All I did was give my personal opinion that I find them unrealistic and that a straight woman is a lot more likely to make a gay couple than a lesbian couple as the main characters because one of them appeals to them and one of them definitely doesn't (most straight guys, even ones who are tolerent, still don't want to see gay guys making out, for instance, and vice versa).

Now you can think my opinion is wrong, that's fine, but I don't see why you guys feel the need to act like I'm attacking something. Yes, I did originally say that it would unoriginal for Jyrras to end up with a guy, but I apologized for that. That's not what I'm talking about right now. Yes, the accusation that I'm making may be "grand-sweeping," but it is just my opinion on the matter on what I personally prefer to read.

[Caswin]

I have a feeling Lorenda and Kria may catch him in the act of "dating" with Abel.....lol.

...

If you mean what it sounds like you mean... I don't see anything like that happening.  Definitely not with Jyrras.  Or, for that matter, even catching them in the same room, seeing as Jyrras seems to be avoiding interaction with Abel at the moment (unless you foresee Lorenda and Kria meeting up yet again later on).

[Prof B Hunnydew]

I have a feeling Lorenda and Kria may catch him in the act of "dating" with Abel.....lol.

...

If you mean what it sounds like you mean... I don't see anything like that happening.  Definitely not with Jyrras.  Or, for that matter, even catching them in the same room (unless you foresee Lorenda and Kria meeting up yet again later on).

Well, I meant that Kria and Lorenda are going "SHOPPING".   Jyrras maybe finally able to drag Abel out of the basement, and hang out at the Mall, again...

Now to Kattuccino

I am sorry to sound if I was attacking you, but Vinci and Arty are a comedy comic and they are surreal... If you want gay comic characters to act closer to reality, then you should  try finding a Drama  like Carpe Diem, which I know is not authored by a female.     And Jap-animation is never really close to reality to begin with.  And they know target their audiance is 75% or more Hetero female anyway.

PBH

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

You know what, nevermind. Read my response if you care but I don't really want to say anything more. I have my opinion, you guys have your's, why don't we just agree to disagree?

*snip* You make some great points, but, well... you don't want to talk about it anymore. Oh, well. It was a nice conversation while it lasted... :-)

FWIW, I think Amber, amongst others, was generalising, rather than specifically attacking, and stating something along the lines of "I feel attacked" not "you're attacking me"... although I hesitate to put words in her mouth.


The problem is the fanboys who promptly read the former instead of the latter, and leap up looking for a target. *sigh* Suffice it to say, your viewpoint is still welcome.

[superluser]

If I was to only write was I was familiar with, I'd have simply an "Amber and Fluffy" marathon

This needs to be next month's donation incentive.

First of all, Max Powers IS gay. Brent and the other guy (I'm horrible with names if you couldn't tell) were purposely misleading the girl. When she tried to kiss Max she got fired.

OK.  Let me rephrase.  Max might be gay, but I've seen no evidence that that's true.  Jade kissed him, and he didn't seem upset.  In fact, his sister thinks he's straight (she is kind of a ditz, though).

  Sorry about that.  Back on topic.

[Zedd]

Lorendia is a cow who deserves what she needs...She needs more open range or something like that..Pardon me I am not a half demon mare bovine doctor

[thegayhare]

well I personaly would take issue with the assumption that men are any less loyal, or any more opertunistic then women. but hey we are all entitled to our own opiniona

[Azlan]

Quite the interesting discussion, this could break up into so many areas.

I do find that Zina rings very true in what she wrote regarding the idealization aspect.  Many attempt to write these type of relationships in a way they view it to be or how they wish it was.  Speaking in generalizations, very few of what I have seen is from an aspect of one who has experience in said relationships.  Whether it is from a purely fantasy aspect, or the ideal version, many paint a prettier picture then what could ever come true.  That goes for straight, gay, bi or other relationships.  It might be quite an interesting undertaking to research these areas for one's story, comic or novel.

[Kenji]

Quite the interesting discussion, this could break up into so many areas.

I do find that Zina rings very true in what she wrote regarding the idealization aspect.  Many attempt to write these type of relationships in a way they view it to be or how they wish it was.  Speaking in generalizations, very few of what I have seen is from an aspect of one who has experience in said relationships.  Whether it is from a purely fantasy aspect, or the ideal version, many paint a prettier picture then what could ever come true.  That goes for straight, gay, bi or other relationships.  It might be quite an interesting undertaking to research these areas for one's story, comic or novel.

Then there are those couples that we all like to get a good laugh at.
Right, Azlan? 

[Azlan]

Then there are those couples that we all like to get a good laugh at.
Right, Azlan? 

Neni can beat me up... she's tough.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

well I personaly would take issue with the assumption that men are any less loyal, or any more opertunistic then women. but hey we are all entitled to our own opiniona

Generalisation, TGH.

-Some- men are just as loyal, and -some- men are not. Same goes for opportunity.

On -average-, men tend to be more opportunistic and disloyal, because, genetically speaking, it's better for them - they get more genes spread around if they sleep with a lot of women. Women get more of their genes spread around if they get the men to stick around and help the kids grow up.

Nothing personal, mind. Just plain old genetics and evolutionary biology :-)

... we're talking in -large- numbers, here. :-]

[Kenji]

Then there are those couples that we all like to get a good laugh at.
Right, Azlan? 

Neni can beat me up... she's tough.

Ooh! Ooh! Show us! Show us! 

[Zedd]

Then there are those couples that we all like to get a good laugh at.
Right, Azlan? 

Neni can beat me up... she's tough.

Ooh! Ooh! Show us! Show us! 

Are you sure you want see him thrashed around like a rag doll?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Ooh! Ooh! Show us! Show us! 

Are you sure you want see him thrashed around like a rag doll?

Why would we not? :-]

[Amber Williams]

Man...I'm going to have to go through the PVP archive for this sooner or later.

Yes, Max nearly fired Jade's younger sister when she put the moves on him, but I dont recall at anytime him saying upfront because he was gay.  Granted there is the overall joke of "you didnt like being kissed by her? Are you gay or something?" but just because he nearly fired her for trying to jump him, it doesn't mean a guy is gay.  Considering she kept her job by having to do a "sexual harassment" seminar at his request.

I really do think the Max being gay thing is a stretch, though I confess I haven't read the archives in a while...so if there was a particular comic where he "came out", please link it. I admit I have a particular thing that unless a character actually states it, I don't take the subtle-innuendo for more than face-value.

----
That said, I apologize if my post made it sound like you were homophobic.  I meant more that it sounded like you had a few bad run-ins with the "omg! Bishie bishi wai! Make with the snuggly-boy sexxins plz!" crowd.  And having been through a few of them myself, I could see how it could make someone a bit jaded or cynical about the whole concept.

My comment about grand-sweeping was mainly that...well there are a lot of comics out there.  (Over 8000 in TheWebcomicList)  Ranging from various talents and personalities and storylines.  Suffice to say, there might be dozens to hundreds out there who do have accurate and well-done representations.  (I'd personally bring to the stands a comic called Narbonic)  And while I won't argue that there is likely a higher trend of female-authors with gay pairs and male-authors with female pairs...its very risky to make assumptions since it is one of those things best left to the individual basis.

I know as an author, I'd rather have what I do judged on its own merit rather than having a preset assumption.  Cause like I said, I already deal with people who go "omg! Furry animu crap!" just by looking at the first page.  And I admit I feel a bit like I'm being challenged when people make comments about how girls can write decent gay-male couples. 

That said, as much as I read Carpe Diem, I kind of would hold off on calling it a closer to reality...unless reality has a population of 80% gay.

Anyways, Illearch pretty much nailed it in that I was generalizing.  The only time I made a comment personally, I put a forewarning apology since I realized I could have been way off tangeant.

Ah well.  Still, my apologies if you felt like you were getting pigeon-holed or your opinion was getting dogged on.

----

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... does anyone else look at the topic title here, and think:

o/~ feelings, nothing more than feelings....

?

[superluser]

I admit I have a particular thing that unless a character actually states it, I don't take the subtle-innuendo for more than face-value.

I'm willing to allow a little more than that.  For example, Devin and Xander?  I'm not sure and don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think they might have been gay. 

But yeah, unless there's something concrete, I tend to put any character into the asexual category.  Glory and Dorian, for example.

I was taught that there's a hierarchy of personal characteristics:

(1) What other characters say about the character
(2) What the character says about himself/herself
(3) What the character actually does

I hate to go on about PvP on the DMFA forums, but Francis is a good example.  Marcy tells Wikipedia that Francis is a total gaylord (but later tells Francis that he's not gay).  Doesn't carry that much weight.  Francis himself says that he's gay (but later says that he's not).  Carries more weight.  Francis romances (or at least `romances') a girl for a number of years and enjoys a facechest.  Carries a lot more weight than the other two.

It's also a common trope to have someone established as gay either by his own words or by gossip, and then reveal that he's not.  For that reason, I don't like inferring sexual orientation by anything other than the character's actions.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

That said, as much as I read Carpe Diem, I kind of would hold off on calling it a closer to reality...unless reality has a population of 80% gay.
----

Well, Carpe Diem is closer than Vinci and Arty and follows a group of gay friends, so the cast is going to be 80% gay.  I think, the Giraffe, Josh is not gay.  But Josh is always the nice guy, who is always getting to short end of the stick.  And he is always having bad dates.  but he is really a cutey.

PBH

[Sirios Skywolf]

Regardless of opinions, positions, or points, it seems that everyone has a case (And all of them have been stated quite well.) It's this kind of dialogue that is healthy and helpful to human growth, and should be encouraged..even if it's "just" a webcomic.

[Amber Williams]

I'm willing to allow a little more than that. *snip snip snip*

*spritz you with water bottle* You knew darn well thats what I meant when I said the line about a character stating it mister.


But Xander from Abel's story? Yeah, he was gay.  Devin however was/is an unknown factor.  And considering their current state of dead, odds are no one will ever get to know the true nature of their relationship.  (Granted I know. I'm an anal-retentive enough cookie to have their backstories worked out from the time they met eachother at adventuring school to when they went on their first adventure as a duo, to the last adventure against "Night Angels"...which I'll let you guy know were in fact vampires.)

Mayhaps I overthink things too deep. 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Mayhaps I overthink things too deep. 

Naaaaahhh...

[Tezkat]

But Xander from Abel's story? Yeah, he was gay.  Devin however was/is an unknown factor.  And considering their current state of dead, odds are no one will ever get to know the true nature of their relationship.  (Granted I know. I'm an anal-retentive enough cookie to have their backstories worked out from the time they met eachother at adventuring school to when they went on their first adventure as a duo, to the last adventure against "Night Angels"...which I'll let you guy know were in fact vampires.)

Mayhaps I overthink things too deep. 

Hmm... fodder for bonus arcs?


The notion of "adventuring school" is interesting--I think that's the first official reference to it, although we all know these guys had to learn their Creature-slaying skills from somewhere. Given the heavy Creature domination of Furrae's political and economic landscape, though, one wonders how such organizations would survive in public...

[Tapewolf]

Mayhaps I overthink things too deep. 

Well they do say that the stories write themselves once you reach critical mass, but I for one would kill to have thought out such a detailed universe 

[MT Hazard]

Mayhaps I overthink things too deep. 

Naaaaahhh...

Kind of takes over you head doesn't it? Fun but annoying as well...

[MT Hazard]

Mayhaps I overthink things too deep. 

Well they do say that the stories write themselves once you reach critical mass, but I for one would kill to have thought out such a detailed universe 

That or you write a library worth of notes and no actually story.I know what you mean though.

[superluser]

*spritz you with water bottle* You knew darn well thats what I meant when I said the line about a character stating it mister.

No, I didn't.  I thought that you meant what you said, but that you didn't actually believe it.  I used the example of Devin and Xander as a sort of reductio ad absurdum.

I know people who apply the same test that you suggested.  The character has to come out and say that he's gay, or else we should assume that he's straight.  Like I said, I don't really start looking at the character's sexual orientation unless I see that character expressing a sexual preference.

But Xander from Abel's story? Yeah, he was gay.  Devin however was/is an unknown factor.

I thought we knew Devin was gay, but not necessarily Xander.  The ``Oh, Xander, I'm sorry I never told you that...'' seemed to only have one interpretation.  I mean, they're your characters, so I guess whatever you say is right.

Once again, I'm taking this at face value, so if that was a typo, I'll be happy to edit this post so that this part never happened.