Down In the Dumps

[Destina Faroda]

But you're already saying you'd reject me, so I'd think the fear is justified.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

No, I'm not typecasting. I'm telling it like it is. When it comes to romantic relationships, there are only four types of guys.

Sex Fiend
Chauvanist
Abusive
Taken or Otherwise unavailable (location, age, etc.)

I haver NEVER met any guy who wasn't in one of those four categories. Fortunately, the ones in the last category tend to be good people, but any dating prospects have sadly fallen into the top three categories.

Maybe not ALL men are unsuitable for a relationship with ne, but most are. I want someone who will take demands, not give them. Quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time than to look for love. All having a partner adds up to is having an extra person to take care of, think about, and spend money on.

Hey, when I met you I was none of those, AND single.


You 'ASSUME' I'm a sex fiend 'cuz I openly talk about it and don't treat it like a disease like you do.  I also wouldn't have minded taking a train ride over to see you and hang out (Rollercoasters!  ), but you were all closed up about it and so it never happened.

[Sin Ominous]

Wait, huh? Destina, did I miss something? I didn't outwardly reject you here. Curses how forums are so indirect.

There's a little thing called compromise that needs some attention.

[Destina Faroda]

Jorge, it's not that you talk about sex but expect it.  There is no sex in the cham-Nang room.  None.  The ideal guy would wait for me as I wait for him.

Spig, I'm too demanding for you.  In fact, you said something to that effect earlier in the thread.  You don't want someone to give you demands.  I don't compromise.  That's your right to feel the way you do, but I object to trying to escape the scum label by doing so.

[AlucardRose]

  I hate it when women act like they can categorize men and they believe they understand them. The truth is that not all of us are sex fiends monsters and just because some of them exist, it is not fair to judge the rest of us. Drawing to conclusions based on what youve seen and heard is not always the best way to treat a situation. Things are not always what they appear or sound.  It seems that women tend to draw to conclusions so damn quickly yet they claim to perceive things better than men do.  I believe that men have slower minds because they process things much more carefully... but they easily get distracted. When men are labeled as simple idiots that can be categorized, its kind of hard to stand by and watch especially when our history has proven what the power of Man is capable of. It even came to the point where Man challenged the authority of God when the Pharaoh ruled the land. And when people say it never happened that is just simply being foolish. They might as well claim that the holocaust never hapenned just because it happened a long time ago...and I dont want to get detailed into that right now though. The past was dominated by men, but women assume control of society presently. It is fair that they have equal opportunity now, but what the hell makes them think they are in charge? No one should be trying to control any one. We all have to do our duties whether it be cleaning around the house or fighting in war. Since when should women have to fight in war? Since when should men have to clean the house? Even back then women complained THAT was still an unfair trade. Hell, even when some men went to war they came back to a home with their wives missing or cheating on them just because they had been gone for a little while fighting for their godforsaken freedom. Sick of women stereotyping men as scoundrels and always being so septimistic. Its not healthy to look at everything from a negative point of view but it is ok to be cautious. What ever hapenned to the YIN / YANG balance?

[Sin Ominous]

Destina, if you and the ideal are both waiting, neither one of you will seek out the other and thus, will both die alone.

Does that make sense to you?

And I don't like demands ALL the time. I don't mind being demanded SOME of the time, however.

I feel like we've argued about this before. This view sometimes reads as "Master/Slave". Sorry, but the spikey heels on my balls hurt like a mofo.

[Fizzbit]

Destina, if you're looking for a man to be your slave and take all of your demands but have none in return, you're better off moving to Africa or some place where slavery is legal, then you can do that. But here in America, you gotta give a little and take a little. And the amount of "little" can depend on what lifestyle you and your guy have.

[Destina Faroda]

Now who's the one not seeing "shades of grey?"  There's a crucial dfference between being demanding and being in a master/servant dynamic.  I can be demanding all I want, but since no one is swayed or affected by my words or action, my opinions are irreleveant -- I have no power over other people so therefore I cannot be held at fault for my beliefs.  On the other hand, people who do shape the way others act reinforce an inequitable dynamic.

Also I wouldn't prefer anyone to be forced to serve me against their will.  I'd want someone to choose to do out an overwhielming sense of devotion, as they needed more than anything else to make me happy.  That undying need to do so would make me happpy as well, and if I got to that point, I might change my mind.  I don't see myself compromising but then again that level of influence might affect me to the point where I become more compromising.  After all, I've often said one of the reasons why popular people become corrupt is because the love of others changes them.  I'm no different than anyone else in that regard.  So why should I be denied?

[Fizzbit]

That's just stupid. That's like saying "If you love me, you'll do this for me." It's controlling. Completely controlling, and it'll get old after awhile. It's almost exactly like men who say "If you love me then you'll sleep with me."

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

I love how she says "and if I got to that point, I might change my mind".  That's like saying "Sleep with me enough times and maybe you might make me love you".

Quite the quagmire.

[Sin Ominous]

And what's this talk of power? Are you trying to form a dictatorship or something?

No one, and I mean no one, like's a power struggle. There has to be a balance of give and take.

[Destina Faroda]

I love how she says "and if I got to that point, I might change my mind".  That's like saying "Sleep with me enough times and maybe you might make me love you".

Quite the quagmire.

Believe it or not, there is some truth to your joking statement.  Taken from a report on a study on how the brain works regarding to love.

"Don't copulate with people you don't want to fall in love with," she half-jokingly tells her students, "because indeed you may do just that." Testosterone can kickstart the two love neurotransmitters while an orgasm can elevate the attachment hormones.

Also note that down later down, it says that that anti-depressants tend to limit sexual satisfaction, so if I'm depressed, then maybe medication isn't such a good thing for the romantic life.  I've also read reports that women with self-esteem issues receive just as much satisfaction from being treated like queens as everyone else, so maybe the solution isn't to make us like everyone else, but to just give us what we want.

Then I see this...

That's just stupid. That's like saying "If you love me, you'll do this for me." It's controlling. Completely controlling, and it'll get old after awhile. It's almost exactly like men who say "If you love me then you'll sleep with me."

But wait, you just said,

And if you truly love someone, then you'll be willing to be flexible to do stuff for them that you normally don't/wouldn't do.

In other words, you first say I should sumbit to someone else and then you say no one should sumbit to me?  Then where's the equality you espouse?

And what's this talk of power? Are you trying to form a dictatorship or something?

No one, and I mean no one, like's a power struggle. There has to be a balance of give and take.

But love...I'd take it further that all relationshsips are power struggles.  Just read this quote from the same page.

Romantic love, Dr Fisher explained in a lecture at the 2004 American Psychiatric Association's annual meeting, is not an emotion. Rather, it's "a motivation system, it's a drive, it's part of the reward system of the brain." It's a need that compels the lover to seek a specific mating partner. Then the brain links this drive to all kinds of specific emotions depending on how the relationship is going. All the while, she went on to say, the prefrontal cortex is assembling data, putting information into patterns, making strategies, and monitoring the progress toward "life's greatest prize."

And look, aren't the three of you trying to gang up on me right now?  I'd say there's a struggle here to get me to be subdued, with the prize being your sense of pride.

The bottom line is that you all say it's fear of rejection, but who's making the excuses as to why no one steps up to MY challenge?  As I point to myself, my other three fingers are pointing back to you.

[Fizzbit]

You should be willing to be flexible, but flexibility shouldn't be forced. Saying "If you really love me, you'll ____" is forcing them, it's putting them on the spot and giving them a guilt trip. Learn to build up to it rather than putting them all on it at the same time.

And why are you trying to learn about your own love life and desires for a relationship from some fucking psychologist website? You should know what your mind and body wants, you don't need someone else to tell you.

[Destina Faroda]

So I should "build up" to being demanding through lies, trickery and subterfuge?  Sorry, but I'm too honest and direct for that.

And I was posting the words from the outside link to add some qualified authority to my words.  But then you raise an interesting point.  If I shouldn't let someone else tell me what I want or need, why should you tell me either?

[Fizzbit]

You're the one who started the thread, you tell me.

I'm not saying build up the demands. Don't even make them demands. You're saying you want your man to do everything for you, but you don't want to do anything for him, because that would make him seem "demanding" and that's not the type of guy you want.

Let's say that your husband and you have certain household chores. He'll cook and clean the house while you do laundry and mow the lawn. You guys may have other chores, but for now, those are the main two per person that we'll focus on.

Then your husband gets in an accident. Maybe he's in a car crash, or falls down the stairs at work or something. Anyway, because of this accident, he's fully incapacitated. He has to undergo surgery and be put on bedrest for two months before taking on light, unstressful work. Now, insurance or workman's comp will cover his injuries as far as medical costs are concerned, so don't worry about that. However, are you gonna take over his responsibilities of cooking and cleaning while at the same time doing your own chores and taking care of him? Or are you gonna do your own chores, order take out, and let the house become a filthy mess while he recuperates?

No man is ever gonna take a woman and take all of her demands and sit back without complaints. And if you find one that does, he'll never stay with you for very long.

Another thought, have you ever considered becoming a bisexual? That at least broadens your selection.

[Jorge D. Fuentes]

The concept of "Give and Take" is lost on Destina.

[Sin Ominous]

You're relying too much on media to form your perceptions, Destina.

And we all know how fabricated love is in the media. :\

If you want to know real-life examples of love that works for both people, ask us three. Don't base your entire perception from the media machine.

[Destina Faroda]

Yeah, I started the thread about how I was geeling blue.  I was half-joking in my earlier replies about snagging a rich man to "fix" my life.  My whole point that went over people's heads was that there's an assumption that having a mate makes life more fulfilling, and while it definitely can, it shouldn't be the major determining factor in a "love" score.  However, as people took it seriously, so did I, and we got here from there.

I'm not saying build up the demands. Don't even make them demands. You're saying you want your man to do everything for you, but you don't want to do anything for him, because that would make him seem "demanding" and that's not the type of guy you want.

Correct.  It's not the "proper" answer but one that reflects how I truly feel.  All I'm saying is that some of the "proper" replies are still either inherently biased due to the current unequal situation, or are a mere modification of past attitudes with the same results.

But  in response to your hypotecial situation.  Talk about being binary...and you complain about me?  How about Option C -- getting friends and family to help you through a trying time?  Or are you suggesting that friends just abandon each other in time of need?  Or that you and your husband should simply define yourselves by each other, which actually isn't too far from what I'm saying.

No man is ever gonna take a woman and take all of her demands and sit back without complaints. And if you find one that does, he'll never stay with you for very long.

Wow...so much for the whole hoping I find someone.  The venom just pours out...where's the give and take here?

Another thought, have you ever considered becoming a bisexual? That at least broadens your selection.

I noticed you edited "lesbian" for "bisexual" in trying to be PC, but either way you've demeaned both bisexuals and lesbians by implying because I'm too demanding, I'd fit in with a sexual minority.  After all, you've pegged me as a man-hater, so why shouldn't I go be with my "own kind"?  Wow.  What ignorance.  The implications are very clear, but I have a tyrant personality, which is independent of my physical preferences.  By the way, I lean toward asexuality on the sexual orientation triangle but romantically I lean heterosexual.

And, spig about the "media machine".  The media may be fabricated to a point, but it is an amalgamation of the feelings and thoughts of society.  To dismisss it as "the media" is to ignore that people shape it.  Besides, anecdotal evidence is also flawed, especially when taken from a small sample.

[Fizzbit]

I never once pegged you as a man-hater, only that your standards are way too high.

And I'm a bisexual myself. I'm not demanding, or at least my boyfriend doesn't complain about it. I try to please him just as he tries to please me. We have that whole give and take thing going on.

Also, in reply to your reply about the hypothetical situation: Are you saying you'd just have your friends and family take care of his side of the deal and help you out rather than you trying to take on a little extra work?

[Destina Faroda]

Oh now, come on.  Don't pull the innocent routine.  You implied that what I ask is merely the inverse of  the lazy, misogynist males I complain about.  You have also stressed the importance of a well-kept house and most tellingly, you did not challenge the writings of the Alucard Rose.  There is a very strong undercurrent that because I am demanding, I am a misanthropic man-hater.  And I personally don't give a which genders you find attractive.  The idea of physical attraction is incomprehensible to me anyway.

You're not demanding, of course not.  But when one person doesn't demand, the other one does.  And you've shown that you're willing to be a doormat in excahange for support when someone challenges your worldview.

Funny, how you're not saying the people I want are out there now...my my my, what a difference a day or two makes.

Edited to add:  Of course, I'd ask for help.  You're saying that work two people do one person should assume?  That's too much for one person.  Not unless you don't like asking people for help.

[Fizzbit]

"Funny what a couple of days can do" Yeah, also funny what you can learn in a couple days.

I'm not a doormat. There are some things I absolutely won't do, and I refuse to be controlled. I can be flexible. Being flexible does not mean being controlled, it just means doing some things to help make my significant other's life a little easier, just as he does for me. It adds a lot less stress to the relationship and doesn't change either person's personality or lifestyle.

[Destina Faroda]

Hahaha...funny, then it is the person who was advocating friendship and trust has turned on someone in the span of what, two days?  What happened to the entire issue of "trust"?  For a flexible person it looks like your personality has changed.  If this is being flexible, then I think I'd rather be static.  I may not be fair, but I am consistent.  This is the very height of hypocrisy.  All I say is simply this.  If you claim to be for equality, fairness, and trust, then show yourself to be trustworthy and impartial.  Othwerwise, I will expose you for being as flawed and demanding as I am in addition to being dishonest.

[Sin Ominous]

You can be selfish and quite cold-hearted sometimes, Destina. If this is how men have treated you over time, take a good look at how you're treating us.

What is there for your partner to appreciate if it's all about you? What does he or she expect out of the relationship for all the giving they do? It's not a balanced ratio, something I'm way too familiar with.

If you love the person and expect him or her to love you back, you've got to learn to be flexible. The ideal just doesn't fall in your lap.

And by flexible, we mean WHILE YOU ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP. As you are a girlfriend to neither of us, don't call bullshit on our flexibility to our respective partners.

[Fizzbit]

I gotta go with Spig on that one

[Destina Faroda]

I have not denied that I am selfish or cold-hearted, so saying I am is very redundant.

When you admire somone, do you really expect them to do anything for you?  There are plenty of people I admire, and it simply fills me with the ultimate joy just to be in their presence.  As much as it kills me, I need them because they are so great.  But it brings the ultimate pain that no one feels the same for me.

What is friendship other than a voluntary, non-romantic relationship?  The same rules apply except for the exclusivity.  But you seem to think that if you're involved with someone then no one else matters -- the very binary and LACK of compromise you have labeled me with.  But I shouldn't be surprised, as you first write.

If this is how men have treated you over time, take a good look at how you're treating us.

Then

And by flexible, we mean WHILE YOU ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP. As you are a girlfriend to neither of us, don't call bullshit on our flexibility to our respective partners.

So wait, I shouldn't treat you badly...but those same rules don't apply because we're not in a relationship?  This...does...not...compute...

[Sin Ominous]

What I meant was that don't base romantic relationship flexibility on how we treat you. Look at how we and our partners treat each other. And unlike media constructs, we are real people who have figured it out.

A romantic understanding between our partners is built and contributed to by BOTH people.

[Destina Faroda]

But, shouldn't you treat all people by the same standards, regardless if they're your lover or your acquaintance?  And, since you're so trusting, shouldn't there be the same level of understanding among the people you know?  Isn't that was causes strife, the idea tha people don't understand each other and give each other equal regard?

ETA:  Oh, and you say you've figured it out.  So you mean to tell me you know you're going to spend the rest of your life with Janet?  That's when you've figured it out.  When the marriage has lasted.  Everything else is a trial run.

[Sin Ominous]

And how do you find the way to understanding someone else? You open up and ask. The most basic principle of human communication there is.

Those standards aren't set in stone. I doubt you treat Dubya by the same standards as you treat your closest friend.

There's just something about the understanding between two people in a romantic relationship that is deeper than basic understanding in a platonic relationship. I can't quite put my finger on what that is, but I know that it and understanding in platonic friendships are quite different.

[Destina Faroda]

But I do open up, and what do I get?  Nothing but contempt.  Then you wonder why I don't trust you?  It's simple.  You want me to open up.  Say nice things when I do.

And if you've read this thread, I have no friends, so any analysis of how I'd treat person a or person B is undefined.

[Sin Ominous]

Well, it's up to you to make friends.

Either way, I'd go insane if I was holed up alone in my house for the rest of my life. Now, I know you've told me that you don't live in a particularly safe neighborhood, hence my saying you should get out more and enjoy life already doesn't hold water.

Your life is what you make of it, yes, but don't expect a lot in return by your current rate.