09/18/2010 [PF #136] - When all else fails...give them a pamphlet!

[Mao]

Ok, I don't read your comic and frankly really don't care either way, but I should point out that, while you've corrected one instance of the character's traits being pointed out, you've really not addressed any of the concerns raised.  Do you need to?  No, not really.  It's your comic, do with it what you will, but if you wish to prevent this stuff from coming up, you might want to think long and hard about the points raised and why they're being raised.  You could write it off as 'just trolling' and go about your merry way and hey, honestly?  I might even react the same way, were our positions switched.  However, maybe closer analysis is warranted.  There could be something here to *improve* your stories if you choose to look for it.  You have a tendency to get very defensive over your works and that's human, really, no one can fault you for it, but if your goal is to tell a fun story and write a comic that gains fans maybe you should pay close attention to the criticisms.  If your goal is just to retell your old stories, only now with pictures then maybe you should just link the old stories so that people can read at their own leisure and gain all of the insights that aren't quite conveyed in the comic form.

Look, I know you've come under a lot of scrutiny lately for both your artwork and story on the comic.  I'm not saying to just cave to the demands of everyone, but to really carefully think about the 'what and why' of what they're saying, particularly the well thought out posts.  Even if what they're saying doesn't jive with your vision or thoughts on the matter.  Take each comment as a sincere attempt to help point you in what the poster thinks is the right direction.  Even if they're trolling, they're tying to tell you something.

[Tapewolf]

Ok, I don't read your comic and frankly really don't care either way, but I should point out that, while you've corrected one instance of the character's traits being pointed out, you've really not addressed any of the concerns raised.

That is true, and there are several reasons for this.  Firstly, it's come at a very bad time.  I always get pissy around this time of year and it will do no one any good if I read it through at the moment.  Perhaps I've already tried to take on more than I should have.
FWIW I will try and remember to look it through later in the week when I'm feeling less teed off, but in all honestly it's taking a major effort of will to look at this thread at all right now.

Secondly, many of these are plot points dealt with later in the comic anyway.  Some of them are predicated upon the current situations in the comic, which will change later.  I'm not sure it's really a good time right now to go over things that won't happen until several years later down the line that may already have been obviated by that point.  IMHO I've already said a bit too much about some things.

Thirdly, I'm still turning a lot of things over in my head to see how the points I have missed can be incorporated into the plot while still keeping it within the basic outline of what has already been written.  For what it's worth I am already thinking of tweaking the ending to better reflect some of the suggestions here.

If your goal is just to retell your old stories, only now with pictures then maybe you should just link the old stories so that people can read at their own leisure and gain all of the insights that aren't quite conveyed in the comic form.

Well, one of the aims of doing this was to try and fix a couple of plot holes in the original story.  If more are discovered, then yeah, I'm going to try and address them.  Part of the problem is that I know how the story works and what's going on, and it isn't easy for me to see where it breaks down for people who haven't read the original story.


EDIT:

And to be fair...the long long lives on many creatures is a result of my own incompetence as a storywriter.  Had I known what I know now, I likely would have nerfed the lifespan by a great deal for many of the races.  I'm actually still tempted to at some point.

That would be something of a shame.  It kind of separates it out from a more mundane story where characters have, say, a 90 year span because you then have to try and imagine what people would be like after 400, 3000, 9000 years.  Yes, it makes the writing a bit harder, but to me that's part of the challenge.  Frankly, I think it's one of the more interesting assets of the series as it stands.

[VAE]

I won't address Drath's comment as i explained the misunderstanding on IRC already

First to address SquirrelWizard.

I) I beg to differ
Firstly, if you want to invent something new, a large knowledgebase is a plus - something that the young generally need to develop before they are able to come up with new theories and advances...
Secondly, i am of the opinion that the loss of "ingenuity' is simply a byproduct of mental decay due to senescence - something that is avoided by the android method entirely.
A good example that this is not the case all the time would for example be Richard P. Feynman , specifically, him finding the cause of the Challenger rocketplane catastrophe.

II) Talking about the society of Furrae is hard since i lack the data, but our society isn't suited to handle the present situation, not the one i am describing. The fact is, the amount of people in passive age is rising in proportion to active segment, as people live longer, but after a certain age a lot of them aren't useful, yet still require goods and services
To the contrary , a society which can handle 25 year olds can handle ageless - the second are productive until they die.

III) Hmm, besides those who have psychological disorders like acute  depression,  people generally aren't eager to die... It is true again that some old people do not care anymore, but in those cases , i would say that the low quality of life due to a deteriorating body is probably a cause, similar processes in brain would be a second one... and again, android-ing everyone solves both.
I honestly doubt that a healthy, able person would have a problem living for extended time intervals....
Besides, the alternative is  still being dead.. 

I know this beef with me is personal, but I'm justifying your nerd-rage with a response. Feel honored.

Actually, it isn't ... immortality an life extension is a topic of interest to me... even my persona/avatar character is based on the concept - a being mage/technologist who  is prepared to do anything  to become a cubi. Also,  i hold no personal grudges against you, or at least i am not aware that i do...

The undead are also not looked fondly upon, and also greatly experimental. It says in the demonology page:

***

The other creatures races? Not immortal. Long lives, sure, by our standards. But very, very rarely immortal.

Well, they can prolong lifespan indefinitely by a trivial manner (even being souls suffice).
Both basically have lifespans until killed or wishes to die.

Soul stealing is trivial now? We don't know how much soul-eating it takes to add even a couple years onto a 'cubi's life, or even how difficult soul eating is. The average lifespan for 'cubi is, according to Demonology 101, 3000 years. If one could eat a couple souls and add a thousand years to their life, why wouldn't that span be much, much longer? And why are there so few tri-wings, if power is so easily obtained?

You answer yourself later.
The dragon-cubi war took out most cubi old enough to fight , which skewed the distribution hugely towards the lower end... besides except for those who live at SAIA, cubi and other creatures are all too happy to kill each other for territory, each others' souls, and reasons only they could invent....
As for the tri-wings, the way i understand it is that whereas normal "beefing up" by consuming a soul or two seems to be safe enough, to become a triwing you need to go into massive energy overload, and without proper methodics, few can survive it.. out of the survivors, many probably did it right 'by accident' and even if not they wouldn't be exactly eager to share it with everyone, weakening their position.

Unfortunately that was something I learned in the health class I was forced to take year after year in highschool. I watched several documentaries in which people with organ transplants talked about how things like their taste in foods changed after the transplant, and about their insecurities. There was also usually a great feeling of guilt that someone had to die for them to live, but that wouldn't be the case with the androids. Regardless, a quick google search could probably answer your questions about that, if not, I'll dig something up. I'm positive there's something about it in my psychology textbook.

Oh woe is me.
Yet, organ transplants are still done, since a value of saved life is for society greater than what few temporary psychological problems bring.
Heck... even for amputees, the quality of life isn't as great as before, yet noone euthanises them...
Not to mention, those arguments apply for real life... in Furrae, situation is even better since things like devouring emotions etc. are able to "talk sense" even into people who normally would be inaccessible - like Abel in his youth after his father has taken him forcibly to SAIA and killed Hennya in the process.

Besides, the alternative is ceasing to exist, which doesn't seem like fun.

I didn't say anyone should roll over and die because they got an organ transplant. I was using that as a rough example for traumas that don't seem to have any effect at all in Project Future. I am personally a registered organ donor, and an avid transplant supporter. That wasn't the point of my example.

Well, devouring emotions is helpful i'd say, as is thought reading and other traits for fixing mind disorders... also...  i suspect a lot of these things simply don't get mentioned as they aren't key in the story, in the same way there isn't a chapter on ordering groceries on-line...
I don't know... Tape has to answer this one.

Really? I don't recall Joshua being given a choice. I actually remember him freaking the hell out, and Jakob forcibly removing his fear.

True... asides from the fact that giving people choice isn't always best for them, it doesn't stand against the technique as a whole, only this particular application of it.
Rather like saying walking sticks are bad, because neighbor's grandma used one to beat up the postman.

We have no proof that Dorcan or Wils were given a choice either, to be frank. Joshua was just the most obvious example.

Well, giving someone a choice isn't always good... a good example would be suicide attemptees.
Look at how Fa'lina dealt with Abel.

.
That's a messy subject to get into. Imagine how poorer families would feel if they couldn't have children because richer people would rather live forever than let fresh blood enter the gene pool. Nevermind the fact that it's not even first-world countries I'm explicitly referring to. Any country, modern or otherwise, is going to have people that are well-to-do but still can't afford the enormous cost an android body would entail.

Now this, and the thing in the previous post belongs to an interesting strand of argument.
It makes one wonder how did, for example europe survive without overpopulation  up to now, even though infant mortality dropped staggeringly since even 100 years ago.
For  Furrae it is even better - there are lifeforms with lifespans similar to the androids, and an equally easy reproduction to that of beings, yet the place isn't "clogged up".

I think you down-play how often creatures get killed. I mean, hundreds of 'cubi died in a single day thanks to Hizell. Yes, that was during a war, but we don't know everything about Furrae. We *do* know adventurers are a big threat to creatures, and that demons in particular seem to gleefully kill each other. Population control right there.

Yes, however i would imagine for beings the situation is even worse... with the exception of very skilled adventurers, a single creature can sort out a large amount of them...  jevermind beings killing themselves in between
However the most important thing is... making someone immortal  in this case (and usually)  means his lifespan is "until killed"...  not to mention androids generally can't reproduce.

To the above... well again, that's an argument against pretty much any medical advancement... from it follows that insulin is evil as well, since right after the war, into early 50s it was rare and sought after in the black market meaning the ones who mostly got it were the rich diabetics...
This attitude is similar to luddism - it consists on blaming the tool for how it is being used.

No, no. I'm blaming the tool, the method, and the person who made it.

You sure are.. however the postman analogy still holds

Nevermind two more points:

I) agelessness is beneficial for the society as it essentially elliminates the economically passive age. (mainly senescence) as well as having to train the new workforce.

It also preserves old logic and... screw it, I've said so much on this topic already, I don't feel like repeating myself.

II) I don't know about you but having a slight chance at getting to live essentially forever is still better than everyone just dying off. Especially in a society where there already are creatures with such lifespans just thanks to their race/species.

And then there are people like May, who'd rather spend their money on others than prolong their own life, even though that meant she would likely never see her only child again...

Ooh,,, did i mention creatures already can prolong their lives just by souleating beings? And it isn't all that more difficult than killing someone, especially since you have a few thousand years to learn the techniques before it becomes of vital importance.
Essentially all this does is give beings access to extended lifespans....
There are many ways i can see this, but none of them clicks as Ebil, or even ordinary evil.

Yawn, see above. Though I have to admit, you're defending someone who's characters are all so gloriously perfect they invent new life and power sources to prevent killing and soul eating... with killing and soul eating. Wonderful irony.

[/quote]
Johan Cross all of all killed under a dozen sentient lifeforms... and pretty much all of them deserved it.



PS @Turnsky

Brainwashed beings in battlesuits are cheaper....

[Lore]

Danman:

As much as I hate to say this, we're getting a bit off topic. I could debate this with you all day (debate, not argue- I'm honestly intrigued by this), and gladly will if you'd like to take it to PMs, but as it stands, we're probably just stressing out Tapewolf. This has extended pretty well past discussion of the actual comic.

[VAE]

Hmm, you might be right ... though it does involve a lot of furrae, and PF/CJP
PM's are one good possiblity... though, well, i wonder what his and Ren's opinion is... the topics at Lost lake get a lot looser

The only thing i am sure of now, is that i am off to bed

[Lore]

Well, I can reply to your post here if you really want, but I'm positive this has got to be stressing poor Tapewolf. There's also the issue of a lot of this being Word of God territory... Though, I'm happy to speculate all day.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I do have to say, congratulations to both of you on keeping the disagreements civilised and polite. It is hugely appreciated from a moderator perspective that while you obviously disagree widely, you've been respectful of each other's views all the while.

Kudos to you both; and, indeed, the other participants.

[VAE]

Well, I can reply to your post here if you really want, but I'm positive this has got to be stressing poor Tapewolf. There's also the issue of a lot of this being Word of God territory... Though, I'm happy to speculate all day.

Looking at this while fresh... agreed.
taking it to PM's might be a good idea


@llearch

We are getting mod praise? Now i am seriously scared.

[RobbieThe1st]

Personally, I don't see the problem.
Sure, a cyborg doesn't have a "natural lifespan", but they can still be killed, and relatively easily too.
I mean sure, perhaps a bullet through the heart wouldn't kill em, but a bunch of them would. And they would probably be susceptible to things that humans/beings/etc aren't, like EMP blasts. And having to consume special chemicals every x hours, which could be harder to get your hands on than water or normal food.

Realistically,  it would be one of those things where the -average- lifespan might be just a few more years, though the -maximum- lifespan would be a -lot- more.

Now, to rebuff a few points I saw:

First, agelessness would kill ingenuity, since aging people wouldn't be cycled out of the workforce. There would be no fresh blood to take a whack at the problems. It would result in stagnation.

I'm not sure that would happen. Simply because the intelligent brains/souls behind the android skin -were- "human", and unless they were an inventor or somesuch, would get burnt out after a while and just plain quit. It happens in the -real- world all the time!

Also, if you look at the real world, even in fields where things are stagnant, there are plenty of "new" people coming in and changing things... even if it requires starting a new company or new whole subfield to compete.


Fake souls. I think you guys are getting the wrong idea here.
All Tape's talking about is simply something thats similar enough to be used as energy. Take emotions for instance - According to canon, 'Cubi can use them for food. Wouldn't it stand to reason that you could synthesize something close enough that its edible?
And the same thing with souls. Tape just seems to concentrate on souls because its apparently a more dense form of energy - all the better to work on synthesizing. Especially if it can be consumed at a much faster rate than emotion energy.


---
Overall, what I find interesting about this whole issue is that I don't recall nearly the backlash against Tape's story(but I could be wrong). Only now, when its being put into comic form is the backlash appearing - and being based on a story, its kind of hard to change it mid-stream...

-Rob

[Tapewolf]

Does this help?

http://www.project-future.org/fridge45.png

[VAE]

Does this help?

http://www.project-future.org/fridge45.png

Ahhaha

Also, since Mary Sue is originally female (I believe Marty Stu was used for the male category) i believe the happier at that being untrue is Lord Ikarion Daryil 

[Tapewolf]

Also, since Mary Sue is originally female (I believe Marty Stu was used for the male category) i believe the happier at that being untrue is Lord Ikarion Daryil 

I didn't want to be sexist
Anyway, that strip has now gone live.  Might be an idea to read the rant.
Also, kudos to the first person to recognise the subtitle (without using a search engine)

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Also, since Mary Sue is originally female (I believe Marty Stu was used for the male category) i believe the happier at that being untrue is Lord Ikarion Daryil 

I'm pretty sure Daryil would be more than happy to be a Mary...

... or, indeed, anyone at all, if it generates more confusion. ;-]

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

So, when does Batlin come over? At least to me, dressing up the strip in the Fellowship philosophy does *not* make Jakob and friends seem more innocuous

[Tapewolf]

So, when does Batlin come over? At least to me, dressing up the strip in the Fellowship philosophy does *not* make Jakob and friends seem more innocuous

Maybe I should just have had 'Worthiness Precedes Reward' and left it there 

[Tapewolf]

Page 138 is up early, by the way.