2018-06-11 [DMFA#1844] - Parental disapproval

[Amber Williams]

I am going to interject with a thing that the comic 972 was unfortunately outdated and something I overlooked (aka: forgot) when I was tightening the notes of the event.  The strip has been edited to reflect the smaller number. That one was a my bad and an unfortunate byproduct of "Ambaaargh forgot a strip she wrote 9 years ago".  Regina's bodycount does end at 3 (Wildy's mom and the two adventurers)

I will also mention that general school in DMFA only goes to our equivalent of grade 8 since after that most kids are expected to pick a profession to apprenticeship under. So Dan/Regina would have been around 14-15 in the flashback.  In the end I don't think that necessarily makes that much difference but I figured I'd at least clarify that they were not full fledged adults by society when this event took place.  (One's first rampage is usually the demon equivalent of their sweet 16)

I do appreciate that while intense, the debate has been pretty civil even though its touching base on some pretty heavy and hot notes.  And I can understand the need that some may need to step back and out, which is also admirable since the alternative is risk it getting too frustrating and personal.  Ya'll are good level headed beans and I appreciate ya.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Nightmask, please stop double-posting. You've done it twice now. I've been watching.

Everyone, please trim appropriately.


Both of these edicts are in the rules. Please don't make me get the Darkmoon out.

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to 'double-posting', I also don't see anything in the sticky to this forum that references anything regarding 'double-posting' or trimming.  So where are these rules you're referring to that don't appear to be in this forum?

http://clockworkmansion.com/main.php?page=rules#rule05a

The rules that YOU agreed to when you signed up. They haven't changed - although I'll admit that the link at the top of the page has gone missing, and I'll be looking into fixing that this weekend, and that makes it harder to find them, so some leniency is acceptable.

MSpears, if you post twice in a row, then yes, you're breaching that agreement. And yes, Nightmask isn't alone - but I'll admit I didn't see Genesis the first time around. That doesn't mean Nightmask gets off free, it means both of them are being watched.

[Darkmoon]

Nightmask, there are rules,  clearly stickied in the welcome section of the forum. Reading them is also a requirement of registering since you literally have to answer "yes" that you read them.  If you didn't read them then I have no sympathy for your plight.

Llearch is one of the nicer admins here.  Listen to him when he tells you something.  You're better off with him than having to deal with me.

[keybounce]

First, with regard to the question of whether or not the early comics are still canon, other than that one comic (972) which as Amber just mentioned was a case of "I forgot", as far as I can tell/remember every early comic has turned out to be canon. Even the cheap black and white Q&A of "your dad is alive, and your mother is working for Biggs in Twink's territory" has turned out to be accurate.

I want to point out something from psychology experiments. I was just reading about this today, but it's something that I first learned many years ago. Imagine half of the class being shown a sketch of a pretty young woman, with her face turned; and the other half of the class being shown a sketch of an old lady, with her face looking down. Then, the entire class being shown a single composite sketch that embodies both of them. One half of the class will see a detailed picture of a young lady; the other half will see a detailed picture of an old lady.

The facts -- where the black is, where the space is -- is the same in both parties observation and interpretation. But the interpretation of what the black means, what the space means, differs. And I think in many cases,  we're seeing that same effect here in this thread.

I'm also reminded (from Harry Potter methods of rationality) that instead of jumping to conclusions and trying to defend those conclusions, Real discussion requires actually discussing what has happened without making any conclusions.

I know I have been guilty of at least the 2nd, if not the first.

We have 2 entirely different societies, 2 entirely different decade and a half of upbringing, 2 entirely different decade and a half of "what you should expect from of the people around you".

From the viewpoint of beings, breaking the law means that you should be arrested, and given a fair trial; we've already had some idea as to what their idea of a "fair trial" is like and the inherent bias against creatures.

From the viewpoint of demons, "synthetic certainty" -- being able to make your declarations into the truth, the reality --  being able to kill those that are threatening you, and then return home alive is itself a trial by combat.

By the standards of the environment in which she was raised, Regina is very much noncombatitive, and really does not seem like a bad person (excluding 972, which does now seem to be a non-Canon/inaccurate narrative), and the question of whether or not she is a good person according to the being standard seems like the wrong question to be asking.

So do you think she is a good person according to the demon standard?

[Genesis]

We have 2 entirely different societies, 2 entirely different decade and a half of upbringing, 2 entirely different decade and a half of "what you should expect from of the people around you".

From the viewpoint of beings, breaking the law means that you should be arrested, and given a fair trial; we've already had some idea as to what their idea of a "fair trial" is like and the inherent bias against creatures.

From the viewpoint of demons, "synthetic certainty" -- being able to make your declarations into the truth, the reality --  being able to kill those that are threatening you, and then return home alive is itself a trial by combat.

By the standards of the environment in which she was raised, Regina is very much noncombatitive, and really does not seem like a bad person (excluding 972, which does now seem to be a non-Canon/inaccurate narrative), and the question of whether or not she is a good person according to the being standard seems like the wrong question to be asking.

So do you think she is a good person according to the demon standard?

It's an excellent question, thought some what we've seen of demon culture? Probably not. She seems quite brainless and surprisingly cowardly, which in what appears to be a survival of the strongest culture is probably seen as weak.

A more interesting question though, is if it's even possible for demons and beings to coexist. Both seem to dismiss/hate each other respectively, so I'm not really sure how they could reconcile those difference, without nearly wiping each other out.(though if I was a betting man, I'd put my money on the demons winning an outright war)

[Tapewolf]

A more interesting question though, is if it's even possible for demons and beings to coexist. Both seem to dismiss/hate each other respectively, so I'm not really sure how they could reconcile those difference, without nearly wiping each other out.(though if I was a betting man, I'd put my money on the demons winning an outright war)

Yes.  They coexist in Zinvth, and apparently other Creature-run cities.  They act as the security force.  You can hire them out as bodyguards.  People within the city (unless they break the law in some way) are a protected class.  The fact that they need the Demons to protect them could be considered kudos for the Demons - you don't usually hire a security force that's weaker than you are.  Once you've got it set up, it's kind of self-reinforcing since if someone else comes along and kills the people you're protecting, you've failed big so the Demons have a vested interest in keeping the others alive and therefore proving themselves.

It's worth pointing out that in Zinvth they have various Mythos races to act as a go-between, so a pure Being/Demon environment might be hard to establish, at least with the present Demon culture.
And that is another point - most of the problems seem to be a result of their beliefs rather than an innate feature of the race.  If might be that if you could instead bring Demons up to believe that Beings are fragile and need to be protected as a matter of honour, then you might be able to create a synergistic relationship rather than an antagonistic one.

[Nightmask]

I'm coming back one more time to point out to those saying that adventurers are worse than demons that we have proof of demons constantly, for no other reason than the munchies, murdering and devouring beings. Kria has done this several times. LORENDA has done this! http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_098.php She ate her other tenants in her previous homes! Kria has eaten her ex! Cheating on someone isn't grounds for murder I wouldn't think right? It's also been pointed out numerous times that its normal for demons to kill beings as a show of superiority in their culture. Regina was just talking about how rampages are a normal coming of age thing. How can you possibly see the beings as completely in the wrong when their actions were ultimately started to stop the slaughter of their people for mere games and ego boosting? Regina had to pay a fine for killing the people she killed like it was nothing. Rich demons would be able to slaughter people left and right with no repercussions in a system like that and you're defending the demons? The beings are on the bottom of the wrung of power and they're just trying to survive in a harsh world that wants them dead and sometimes they make mistakes. The undead that attacked Kria was right. Kria was an agent who is looking to destroy and subjugate the undead. Kria and Regina and Pegasus are all evil. Also Regina wasn't a child when she went on that rampage if she was in the same stage as Dan when he was getting out of general school. I was 19 when I got out of general. They were both adults. Also I think this argument is getting a bit too intense for what's being discussed.

And with that I'm going to bow out one last time because I'm afraid if this keeps going further it's going to get far too heated.

While you're mostly right about Kria it was later revealed her ex, Lorenda's father, wasn't just cheating on her he was making plans with his lover (an adventurer) to kill the pregnant Kria and turn it into a bonanza for them by bragging how they killed a demon.  So that particular instance doesn't actually count against her (and we've plenty in the comic that do).

Also nobody's been saying the adventurers/beings are completely in the wrong, they've only been called on their 'if it's not a being kill it' mindset.  Keep in mind that Dan is NOT a being, he's ONLY still alive because people THINK he's one, because Cubi have about the same reputation as demons do (and Dan's clan in particular the reputation for killing an entire city's population and starting the dragon/cubi war).  Without people thinking him a being adventurer other adventurers would have killed him or at least tried to plenty of times by now.  As I noted previously Mink's mother, a member of one of the most non-violent and compassionate and loving clans there is, was murdered in the midst of trying to set up a clinic to help the beings in that village and her killer was praised for it.

Both sides are in the wrong, instead of holding people accountable for their actions and just their actions they're blanket targeted for the actions of others in their race.  Mink's mother died, not for her actions but for the actions of cubi like Destania.  That same kind of blanket response is what led to the deaths of all the people Regina defended herself against, because those on the being side in her case ONLY saw the stereotype of her kind and moved to kill her and once she killed them all the rest that arrived could see her as a 'rampaging demon' and react accordingly to get revenge.

Rectifying that situation seems to be Mab's long-term goal in this particular fantasy universe, balance things so that with equality the creature side like demons no longer see beings as harmless prey and will recognize them as equals, something that would considerably reduce the conflict between the two groups.

[Genesis]

Yes.  They coexist in Zinvth, and apparently other Creature-run cities.  They act as the security force.  You can hire them out as bodyguards.  People within the city (unless they break the law in some way) are a protected class.  The fact that they need the Demons to protect them could be considered kudos for the Demons - you don't usually hire a security force that's weaker than you are.  Once you've got it set up, it's kind of self-reinforcing since if someone else comes along and kills the people you're protecting, you've failed big so the Demons have a vested interest in keeping the others alive and therefore proving themselves.

It's worth pointing out that in Zinvth they have various Mythos races to act as a go-between, so a pure Being/Demon environment might be hard to establish, at least with the present Demon culture.
And that is another point - most of the problems seem to be a result of their beliefs rather than an innate feature of the race.  If might be that if you could instead bring Demons up to believe that Beings are fragile and need to be protected as a matter of honour, then you might be able to create a synergistic relationship rather than an antagonistic one.

Ah yes, I had forgotten Zinvth has a being population as well. My bad.

Though you raise an interesting point, since the issues seem to be completely cultural, how do you even fix that in a species that can live thousands of years?

[Tapewolf]

Ah yes, I had forgotten Zinvth has a being population as well. My bad.
Though you raise an interesting point, since the issues seem to be completely cultural, how do you even fix that in a species that can live thousands of years?

With difficulty.  Though it's interesting to note that according to the Being entry in the demonology, "Recently though the cold gap between the creatures and Beings has been warming up as more and more are finding benefits to being allies. Problems still occur quite often though and old grudges die hard." so this is something that should sort itself out in the long run, assuming no interference from powerful entities such as Hizell who have a vested interest in dividing and conquering other races.

Don't forget that Creatures only live for thousands of years in potential.  If adventurers kill a rampaging Demon in their 20s or late teens, the fact that they might have stayed young until 1000 counts for nothing.  It may also be the case that the older demons tend to settle down more than the very young ones.  That doesn't mean they're not dangerous, but it does seem to make them less wanton.
If, particularly with improved weapons and techniques, it becomes easier for adventurers to take out irresponsible Demons, you'll have a Darwinian selection for Demons who get on decently with Beings.