2018-02-26 [DMFA# 1821] Natural born pacifists

[MT Hazard]

Interesting, it seems neither Dan or Reg wanted to go into the killing field. Not what I expected, given what we know of them in the present.

[Tapewolf]

Interesting, it seems neither Dan or Reg wanted to go into the killing field. Not what I expected, given what we know of them in the present.

Indeed.

Someone was asking earlier if Regina would gloss over her murders.  I wasn't convinced she would, since she's a Demon and it's encouraged in their culture as a proof that they're well 'ard.  Viv lives in a Demon city so she'll know this and likely most of her Demon staff have made at least one kill.  That Regina wasn't taken with the idea... that's unexpected.  Doubly so for Dan.

[PhycoKrusk]

Dan is unexpected, but Regina?

Or, possibly, she knew she wanted to and knew that she could, but never did because it wasn't befitting her and tried doing other, more "appropriate" things instead.

Ring ring!

[Tapewolf]

Dan is unexpected, but Regina?

Well, yes.  She's been going on wanting to rampage pretty much since she was introduced as a regular character.   p.964 is one such example.  Where it gets really interesting is p.1617, where it turns out that her underlying motivation for wanting to rampage is because she thinks it will make her popular.

[PhycoKrusk]

Where it gets really interesting is p.1617, where it turns out that her underlying motivation for wanting to rampage is because she thinks it will make her popular.

That was kind of my point, though. It's pretty clear that Regina wasn't all about rampaging because she especially wanted to, but because she'd gotten it in her head — probably from her father — that it was the best or even the only way to get what she actually wanted. She's interested in fashion, which is in part a popularity game. If she was certain that a good rampage would make her popular, then certainly she'd try it as a stepping stone to getting into fashion. It's too bad for her that it doesn't really work that way, but as Aliph has said and implied many times, Regina's father is an idiot.

As for Dan... well, he wasn't interested in being an adventurer, so I'd be willing to bet that he saw a friendship or relationship with Regina as a way of showing that he didn't need to be, or that adventuring wasn't really necessary (if creatures could be talked out of rampaging, for example), or some variation/combination thereof.

Perhaps the irony of all this is that becoming an adventurer is what actually drew Dan into conflict with Aliph in the first place, and Regina's rampage — seemingly based on the horrible life advice of her father — is what prompted Dan to become an adventurer, which means that Aliph has died, what, twice now as a result of his brother's incompetence. No wonder there some dark blood in the family.

It does make me wonder what might have been, though.

[Tapewolf]

Perhaps the irony of all this is that becoming an adventurer is what actually drew Dan into conflict with Aliph in the first place, and Regina's rampage — seemingly based on the horrible life advice of her father

True, but I think that's just the cultural norm for Demons, rather than something specific to her father.  And on that basis it is a little surprising that Regina wasn't into it.

[Prroul]

Two houses, alike in dignity...

[PhycoKrusk]

True, but I think that's just the cultural norm for Demons, rather than something specific to her father.  And on that basis it is a little surprising that Regina wasn't into it.

Aliph is 760 years old. Kria is 418 years old. I stands to reason that Regina's father is in that range.

Regina is 23. A cultural norm can only persist unaltered for 400 years if it exists in complete isolation from external influences, and the mere existence of the Creature Council is proof that this is not the case. Given that, I'd say it would be more surprising if Regina looked at things the exact same way her father does.

Really, Aliph has been the best possible influence Regina could have, because while he's even older than Kria and should be more set in his ways, he doesn't actually see tradition as being in any way important if it doesn't get him the results he wants, and even if he hasn't actually been saying that, it's the lesson he's been trying to communicate to Regina (that results are more important than tradition), and the fact that she's at Piflak's party on the merits of her skills is proof that she's been listening.



Huh; there's something that she and Dan have in common now: Coming to grips with the fact that a lot of what they've been told about how Creatures behave or should behave is flawed, incomplete or flat-out wrong.

Two houses, alike in dignity...

Oh no, you put that map away, buddy. We're not going to Verona on this trip.

[Dracologist]

Lol.  We wouldn't need any of this backstory at all if we'd all selected to learn her background instead of Abel's back when the competition was taking place.  Good old days.

[The One Guy]

A cultural norm can only persist unaltered for 400 years if it exists in complete isolation from external influences, and the mere existence of the Creature Council is proof that this is not the case.

I got the impression that creature culture takes far longer to change than for beings, and that the Creature Council was made in response to the relatively recent threat of beings.

Lol.  We wouldn't need any of this backstory at all if we'd all selected to learn her background instead of Abel's back when the competition was taking place.  Good old days.

To be fair, had we selected Regina's backstory, we'd be left wondering about Abel's past.

[Tapewolf]

A cultural norm can only persist unaltered for 400 years if it exists in complete isolation from external influences, and the mere existence of the Creature Council is proof that this is not the case.

I got the impression that creature culture takes far longer to change than for beings, and that the Creature Council was made in response to the relatively recent threat of beings.

Indeed.  If the individuals regularly live for centuries, it's going to take lots of centuries to change.  Plus, if they've spent the last 90'000 years kicking Beings around, what's the impetus for that tradition to change?

Plus, you've got folks like Hizell who have been stirring things up for gods know how many millennia.  We know that Dragons of that mindset want to keep their place on top and have been wiping out races they feel threatened by.  What better way to keep the other races from banding together than to have them fighting each other instead of you?  Just a little bit of subtle propaganda every so often and you can keep the tradition going.

[PhycoKrusk]

You're right, and there's no impetus for the tradition to change, and that is completely irrelevant. Powerful though Creatures may be, the fact is that Beings are running the show for one simple reason: There are more of them.

Mainstream fashion, almost without any exception, is going to cater to the tastes and wants of Beings — even at companies run by Creatures — because that's where the money is. This will be especially true at a company with a Succubus at the helm, because the rapid but irregular changes in Being fashion will actually manage to hold her comparatively short attention span.

Whether Malle likes it or not, Regina wants to get involved in an industry and occupation that will do a lot to erode her sense of tradition, and erode it quickly. She doesn't have hundreds of years of experience where things changed very slowly; she has only 23 years where things changed quickly, so her grasp of tradition is going to be tenuous as it is. Of course he pushed her towards something "befitting" and "proper" for her; it's the only way he'd convince her to carry on with his traditions.

That's also why I expect that to be a point of conflict between him and Aliph: All evidence suggests (and please note, I could be completely wrong about this) that Malle cares very deeply about tradition, while Aliph doesn't care about tradition at all, and we know which of the two views better suits Regina.

[Dorje Sylas]

Oh no, you put that map away, buddy. We're not going to Verona on this trip.

I think on this trip Juliet strung up Benvolio, Mercutio, and Tybalt by their entrails. Then she put Verona to the torch, after Romeo tried to sheath his thoroughly non-metaphorical dagger in her heart.

[Angel]

Regina's outfit sure looks familiar...

[Alondro]

Ya know, no matter how you cut it, it's rather hard to justify sympathy for the demon clans that act this way...

Adventurers are out there trying to prevent mass deaths by creatures... some of the demons are going out of their way to increase the body count and reward their children for the Most Mass Murders Monthly, or something like that.

It'd be one thing if the adventurers were the typical loony zealots you often see in anime like this, whose only goal is to slay all non-humans and stuff, while most of the monsters/creatures/whatever are shown to be trying to live.

But here, whole clans of creatures have dedicated themselves to slaughter just because they feel like it and for 'reputation'.  That's about as monstrous as you can get!

Not really morally ambiguous there at all!   

[Prroul]

Ya know, no matter how you cut it, it's rather hard to justify sympathy for the demon clans that act this way...

Pleased ta meet ya, hope ya guess my name...

Adventurers are out there trying to prevent mass deaths by creatures... some of the demons are going out of their way to increase the body count and reward their children for the Most Mass Murders Monthly, or something like that.

Adventurers are trying to kill Creatures, and Creatures are trying to kill Adventurers. I don't see the difference.

It'd be one thing if the adventurers were the typical loony zealots you often see in anime like this, whose only goal is to slay all non-humans and stuff, while most of the monsters/creatures/whatever are shown to be trying to live.

But here, whole clans of creatures have dedicated themselves to slaughter just because they feel like it and for 'reputation'.  That's about as monstrous as you can get!

Not really. You 'rescue' people by killing Creatures, generally on sight. You *DO* remember the arc in which Abel almost got himself whacked by a band of adventurers, right? And the general attitude of the Adventurer's Guild being 'well, he was a Cubi, so he probably deserved it anyway', even with Wildy posting her honor at stake. Oh, and let's not forget how Arianna was introduced either, a band of adventurers invades her residence and tries to up and kill her. Granted, they were on their way to 'rescue' Dan, but they were still in the 'kill first, ask questions... eh, I'm sure we'll get around to it at some point'. And that was with only one actual Adventurer present.

Not really morally ambiguous there at all!   

Quite a bit more when you realize the subtext that has been threaded throughout the entire series.

[WhyNot?]

Adventurers are out there trying to prevent mass deaths by creatures... some of the demons are going out of their way to increase the body count and reward their children for the Most Mass Murders Monthly, or something like that.

Adventurers are trying to kill Creatures, and Creatures are trying to kill Adventurers. I don't see the difference.

It'd be one thing if the adventurers were the typical loony zealots you often see in anime like this, whose only goal is to slay all non-humans and stuff, while most of the monsters/creatures/whatever are shown to be trying to live.

But here, whole clans of creatures have dedicated themselves to slaughter just because they feel like it and for 'reputation'.  That's about as monstrous as you can get!

Not really. You 'rescue' people by killing Creatures, generally on sight. You *DO* remember the arc in which Abel almost got himself whacked by a band of adventurers, right? And the general attitude of the Adventurer's Guild being 'well, he was a Cubi, so he probably deserved it anyway', even with Wildy posting her honor at stake. Oh, and let's not forget how Arianna was introduced either, a band of adventurers invades her residence and tries to up and kill her. Granted, they were on their way to 'rescue' Dan, but they were still in the 'kill first, ask questions... eh, I'm sure we'll get around to it at some point'. And that was with only one actual Adventurer present.

Okay, first point. When Aary was first introduced, Dan and co are just ducking into what seemed like an abandoned house to dodge Girl Scouts. She, and given the circumstances I'll admit I don't blame her, attacks Merlitz not the other way around. I'd also point out that the way Adventurers react around Cubi and how they react around other Creatures may have a bit of variation. Dragon propaganda is so deeply ingrained that no other Creature wants anything to do with them either and considers them lying monsters so it wouldn't suprise me if the Adventurer response to Cubi was over harsh.

Personally, whilst I can't remotely justify that behaviour, aside from Cubi the soft spot of sympathy in my heart has always gone out to Being-kind. Now while DMFA does a fantastic job of showing greys, garning sympathy and understanding and showing how the whole thing has become a messy cycle, the root of the problem in my eyes is still the domination of law and policy by the more powerful Creatures.

I also think it's important to note that most Adventurers don't go into it because 'I hate Creatures because their different' but because the system horrendlesly failed them. When you get 'Sorry to hear little Timmy got his face eaten off. We got the guy who did it....but we don't really think Being lifes matter so we just wagged a finger at em' told him he was naughty then put him back on the street' and then that guy turns to what is basically legalized street justice to cope? Changing the system so these people never have to do that to get their closure is the only way to start fixing things.

Honestly I don't know how you start doing that.

[The One Guy]

Ya know, no matter how you cut it, it's rather hard to justify sympathy for the demon clans that act this way...

Pleased ta meet ya, hope ya guess my name...

Adventurers are out there trying to prevent mass deaths by creatures... some of the demons are going out of their way to increase the body count and reward their children for the Most Mass Murders Monthly, or something like that.

Adventurers are trying to kill Creatures, and Creatures are trying to kill Adventurers. I don't see the difference.

It'd be one thing if the adventurers were the typical loony zealots you often see in anime like this, whose only goal is to slay all non-humans and stuff, while most of the monsters/creatures/whatever are shown to be trying to live.

But here, whole clans of creatures have dedicated themselves to slaughter just because they feel like it and for 'reputation'.  That's about as monstrous as you can get!

Not really. You 'rescue' people by killing Creatures, generally on sight. You *DO* remember the arc in which Abel almost got himself whacked by a band of adventurers, right? And the general attitude of the Adventurer's Guild being 'well, he was a Cubi, so he probably deserved it anyway', even with Wildy posting her honor at stake. Oh, and let's not forget how Arianna was introduced either, a band of adventurers invades her residence and tries to up and kill her. Granted, they were on their way to 'rescue' Dan, but they were still in the 'kill first, ask questions... eh, I'm sure we'll get around to it at some point'. And that was with only one actual Adventurer present.

Not really morally ambiguous there at all!   

Quite a bit more when you realize the subtext that has been threaded throughout the entire series.

Here's the thing:
Demons value strength above all and view beings as inferior due to being inherently weaker.  This, combined with the fact that mass killing is a show of strength, means that they view killing sprees as acceptable, even admirable.  At the core of their philosophy is that one group of people less worthy of living than themselves.
Adventurers, on the other hand, kill to protect their own kind.  It's a reactionary response, and one intended to kill some to save many.  Now that does not mean that there aren't a lot of adventurers who take things to far, and prejudice against all creatures is a common attitude, but at the very least, adventuring is well intentioned at its core.

[keybounce]

The scary thing: if mass killings are a sign of strength, and acceptable; if Jyrras is making guns; the intersection of these leads to modern-day headlines.

[Tuyu]

Dan is unexpected, but Regina?

Well, yes.  She's been going on wanting to rampage pretty much since she was introduced as a regular character.   p.964 is one such example.  Where it gets really interesting is p.1617, where it turns out that her underlying motivation for wanting to rampage is because she thinks it will make her popular.

But 1617 makes it seem more like that was her 'fill in the blank' answer, rather than an actual reason. I suspect the unspoken reason is more "People who complain about me might stop complaining."--the typical motivation of the underachieving sibling of an overachiever.

[Alondro]

Ya know, no matter how you cut it, it's rather hard to justify sympathy for the demon clans that act this way...

Pleased ta meet ya, hope ya guess my name...

Adventurers are out there trying to prevent mass deaths by creatures... some of the demons are going out of their way to increase the body count and reward their children for the Most Mass Murders Monthly, or something like that.

Adventurers are trying to kill Creatures, and Creatures are trying to kill Adventurers. I don't see the difference.

It'd be one thing if the adventurers were the typical loony zealots you often see in anime like this, whose only goal is to slay all non-humans and stuff, while most of the monsters/creatures/whatever are shown to be trying to live.

But here, whole clans of creatures have dedicated themselves to slaughter just because they feel like it and for 'reputation'.  That's about as monstrous as you can get!

Not really. You 'rescue' people by killing Creatures, generally on sight. You *DO* remember the arc in which Abel almost got himself whacked by a band of adventurers, right? And the general attitude of the Adventurer's Guild being 'well, he was a Cubi, so he probably deserved it anyway', even with Wildy posting her honor at stake. Oh, and let's not forget how Arianna was introduced either, a band of adventurers invades her residence and tries to up and kill her. Granted, they were on their way to 'rescue' Dan, but they were still in the 'kill first, ask questions... eh, I'm sure we'll get around to it at some point'. And that was with only one actual Adventurer present.

Not really morally ambiguous there at all!   

Quite a bit more when you realize the subtext that has been threaded throughout the entire series.

The demons of some clans didn't just target adventurers, they just went after beings in general.  And again, just because they wanted to, in some cases clearly because the beings were too weak to fight back and the demons saw themselves as predators and the beings merely prey.

That's pretty cut and dried.