I asked this at an RP thread, but I doubt Amber will look there and I'd like to have an authoritative answer about how this works in Furrae. I guess others can post their thoughts too, and/or ask similar questions.
My question is the following: which of the creatures' abilities count as magic, and which ones as natural traits? For example, if someone were immune to magic, would a cubi be able to read their thoughts? Enter their dreams? Eat their souls? Feed on their emotions? (The last one's probably a 'yes' from what I've read so far, but I don't know about the others). What about the other races? Do they have any special abilities that are not considered magic?
Thanks in advance.
Interesting question, albeit hard to answer.
I must pose a counter-question; how many of a creature's natural traits can be classified as magic?
Take, for example, Cubi. They have an innate ability to feed on emotions instead of regular food. Is this magic? Indeed it has been carried down for countless generations, and it is an ability that requires no training, but with the Cubi being magical beings at base value, there's no reason why it shouldn't be viewed as yet another of their magic abilities. Right?
Just a thought.
I'd just like to know if there's a distinction between magic and psychic ability.
Extraordinary over Supernatural, as it were. The former is certainly more rocksolid in its reliability, while the latter could go far beyond normal boundaries. Of course, immunity to magic could prove a far worse than one might think (kind of like those who can't feel pain) depending on how magic works in your world, or how much it is tied into the balance of nature, to be more precise.
Quote from: Manawolf on August 02, 2006, 02:11:50 AM
Extraordinary over Supernatural, as it were. The former is certainly more rocksolid in its reliability, while the latter could go far beyond normal boundaries. Of course, immunity to magic could prove a far worse than one might think (kind of like those who can't feel pain) depending on how magic works in your world, or how much it is tied into the balance of nature, to be more precise.
At a more mundane level, an immunity to magic in a world where medical sience is neglected in preference to healing magic would be pretty darn bad too. *forgets which episode of DD this is in*
Were this D&D, it'd be pretty clear, magic would only be effected by magic resistance in cases where it directly effects the creature who has the resistance.
ie: emotions are something that radiate from or are broadcast by a creature or being ( a'la Falina's mow-charts ) so the ability would not be blocked by magic resistance, wheras eating the soul would require actively taking it from the creature, and would thus be effected by resistance
from appearances, mind reading picks up broadcast thoughts rather than going in after them, so would also be unaffected by magic resistance
of course, the world of DMFA probably isn't D&D, so this probably has no bearring or accuracy on the current discuassion :mwaha
Hey, the people at D&D talked about this, it certainly holds some relevance. As for the soul stealing, I think it depends on the process. We have yet to see how exactly the soul is extracted from the body.
My theory is a bit more traditional, where extraction occurs upon orgasm of the victim. Of course, Amber's cubi seem a bit more blunt in their warm ups to the extraction, but maybe that was only with Aaryana.
Do they fail their REFLEX check? :laugh
More like they succeed. It's like how I'm making a successful spot check on Vanity (from Jack) subjects you to her eyegouging ugliness.
Quote from: Manawolf on August 02, 2006, 02:40:22 AM
Hey, the people at D&D talked about this, it certainly holds some relevance. As for the soul stealing, I think it depends on the process. We have yet to see how exactly the soul is extracted from the body.
There are probably several ways to do it, not least depending on whether your aim is to absorb it or trap it. One possibility is to catch the soul immediately after killing the victim (like the whippoorwills in
The Dunwich Horror).
As far as I've been able to tell, the various races seem to use some sort of internal storehouse of power and utilize this power... shape it to the desired effect. It almost looks like there is no specific distinction between powers like how D&D breaks it down to arcane, divine and psychic (as well as lots of supernatural, extraordinary, etc. abilities).
I'm not entirely sure though, for all I know there is a huge ball of pistachio ice cream that spontaneously produces rubber duckies of zoom.
Did someone mention pistachios? :)
And now I'm starting to think like the whole thing is like Naruto and chakra with the whole debate about clan techniques against bloodlines. Gah, I'm such a nerd.
By my standards, magic tends to require an actual willing or for the creature/being to actually have to do something to get it to function. A spell needs casting, one needs to train to dream-wander, it's like flexing a muscle of sorts. A magical muscle, but one nonetheless.
Natural traits however tend to be more reflexive and instinctive than their magical counterparts. While they can be controlled and possibly magically mastered, they tend to be a more base reaction. Skin that hardens when in battle due to an adrenaline kick, the tentacle wings(while having a magical backing, can exist fine even without a magical boost) Improved senses, regeneration, things the creature/being have no real need to "will" to happen tend to fall into natural.
Obviously there are some grey-areas. Some natural traits get severly hindered without magic and some magical abilities work better depending on the natural traits.
I wonder what would happen if you could create a space where magic did not apply in a magical universe....
... more specifically, what would happen to the girls Dan talked about. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_516.php) :P
Quote from: ITOS on August 02, 2006, 01:37:24 PM
I wonder what would happen if you could create a space where magic did not apply in a magical universe....
It would do 'cubi a power of no good, since they appear to transition to a magical metabolism as they gain power.
Quote from: Tapewolf on August 02, 2006, 01:49:45 PM
Quote from: ITOS on August 02, 2006, 01:37:24 PM
I wonder what would happen if you could create a space where magic did not apply in a magical universe....
It would do 'cubi a power of no good, since they appear to transition to a magical metabolism as they gain power.
Think it would be worse for an undead. :mowhappy
Well, I got the idea for a magic dead zone once. Worked kind of like that castle from FF9, but nothing at all would grow there beyond the scientific experiments conducted at the research facility built for the creation of creatures unhindered by the limits of magic, as it were.
Quote from: Manawolf on August 02, 2006, 02:52:57 PM
Well, I got the idea for a magic dead zone once. Worked kind of like that castle from FF9, but nothing at all would grow there beyond the scientific experiments conducted at the research facility built for the creation of creatures unhindered by the limits of magic, as it were.
Have you ever read Larry Niven? Generally he writes hard science fiction, but he also wrote a wonderful series of stories based on prehistory earth, where magic works but is a non-renewable resource.
I think my favourite is the short story "What good is a glass dagger?" (1972, featured in the 1975 collection "Flight of the Horse").
A young student werewolf is sent to try and steal a magical device that a warlock has created which sucks all the
mana from a region, permanently.
The warlock catches him and plunges a glass dagger into his heart, before making it disappear magically.
Then he gives the werewolf the design details of his wheel, knowing that if he ever uses it, the dagger will reappear in his heart when the
mana runs out and the spell shuts down. For this reason the werewolf also has to pick his way home carefully to avoid the magical dead spots in the desert where all the
mana has been used up.
..that's a synopsis of the prologue. The story is excellent and has a neat twist at the end. Other stories include the novel "The magic goes away" (1978) and the more recent book "The Burning City" (2000).
**EDIT**
The first one in the series is "Not long before the End", which is in "All the myriad ways" (1971)
I was thinking more along the line of something natural, like an Ysalamiri (http://www.starwars.com/databank/creature/ysalamiri/index.html)...
Sounds like a creature made just to be exploited. You'd think it'd be easier just to mask yourself to force sensitives than to produce a sort of nullification field.
Quote from: Manawolf on August 02, 2006, 04:20:32 PM
You'd think it'd be easier just to mask yourself to force sensitives than to produce a sort of nullification field.
Not in this case, the force sensitive predators wouldn't go near them since they feel that there is no force there. So even if the predators couldn't manipulate the force they still wouldn't go near the Ysalamiri, which they would if the Ysalamiri was just masked.
If all they do is cling to a tree and drain nutrients, natural camoflague work do the job just fine. They don't have to move at all, it'd be perfect. Then again the force works in mysterious ways, and it seems anti-force powers are just as wacky.
Note, I'm still a fan of KOTOR, cuase that's good old fashioned plot with deep characters. The first game still has a plot twist matching the level of Episode 5.
Anyway, back to your magics and anti-magics.
Their primary predators find prey by using force sensativity, a power found in most animals. Simple camoflage wouldn't do the trick.
That's what I was talking about nondetection. Makes you viturally invisible to force senses and the like. If you have a null field, you'd think the animals might catch on, or end up evolving with other senses heightened to help find the creature.
Well, it comes in useful for video games...
Quote from: Manawolf on August 02, 2006, 04:20:32 PM
Sounds like a creature made just to be exploited. You'd think it'd be easier just to mask yourself to force sensitives than to produce a sort of nullification field.
In the book where the creatures were introduced, the null force bubbles wern't detectable to force users except when they were inside the bubble (at which point, they still didn't detect the bubble, but they couldn't detect anything else either)
And, yeah, they were/are a bit of a deus ex.
Exactly, you're going to notice when suddenly you can't see anything, so why not when you can't use your force senses? It's a beacon, telling you "there is a problem in this area that must be removed."
Then again, turn it into a predator, and it'd probably make sense.
well, the book gave the impression that the empty force bubble caused the area to appear to have no life in it, I would assume because the force reports the presence of life rather than the presence or absence of it (with blocked being a third option)
I imagine that it works sort of like a shroud blocking light. Imagine that the force allows you to see points of light in darkness. now imagine that a shroud is placed over some points of light. Unless you know the points should be there, it looks just like there's no points at all, rather than that there is something blocking your ability to see the points that are there.
Looks like we're going off topic here, i'll talk with you about this in IM, if you want.
My own personal "two cents" on the whole take would have to fall in with what Amber said about the natural. I'll use Gabi's example of the feeding upon souls for Cubi. Basic thought on all things LIVING, it needs the proper base things to live. A Being getting it's nutrients, vitamins, minerals and all that junk from the various foods they can eat. Cubi though seem to have souls then their back-up food. The back-up food I'm viewing as sort of junk food for Beings. It'll give 'em what they need for survival but eventually the body will want what it requires strongly enough that it will get it one way or another. Thus in a somewhat round about way I'm viewing the Cubi's feeding on souls a natural thing to be done. Bypassing magical immunities of any sorts to do what is natural to them.
Quote from: Magalian on August 04, 2006, 01:09:30 AM
My own personal "two cents" on the whole take would have to fall in with what Amber said about the natural. I'll use Gabi's example of the feeding upon souls for Cubi. Basic thought on all things LIVING, it needs the proper base things to live. A Being getting it's nutrients, vitamins, minerals and all that junk from the various foods they can eat. Cubi though seem to have souls then their back-up food. The back-up food I'm viewing as sort of junk food for Beings. It'll give 'em what they need for survival but eventually the body will want what it requires strongly enough that it will get it one way or another. Thus in a somewhat round about way I'm viewing the Cubi's feeding on souls a natural thing to be done. Bypassing magical immunities of any sorts to do what is natural to them.
No offence, but soul-stealing is a way 'cubi increase their lifespan and powers, not their main mode of sustenance. They feed on emotional energy, which I presume they somehow convert into the material needed to sustain their metabolism. Speaking of which, they seem to transition to a magical metabolism as their powers increase - since a tri-wing cannot be killed by 'normal means' it is not unreasonable to assume that 'cubi of this power level are not completely corporeal.
Whether 'cubi need to drink (bodies being composed mostly of water) I do not know - they might synthesize it magically. 'cubi who eat food do so because they like it, not because they need to.
As an aside for the subject of
how souls are stolen, Aary's livejournal (which isn't entirely canon, but has made a number of accurate predictions) has this interesting line:
2: Kill him and seal his soul in some jewelry to keep with me forever (While tempting...I feel oddly uneasy as I know it would upset Merlitz deeply...so no)Perhaps I'm overanalyzing again, but I'm reading that as "kill Merlitz and then trap his soul" as opposed to "Trap Merlitz' soul thus killing his body".
..I'm pretty sure that manipulating souls requires magical power to work.
we need some more demo 101 is what we need^^
I'm pretty sure that an Angels fast reflexes are a natural thing. I think it's like a squirrels ability. 'Least according to this "most clever animals" show i watched a few months ago. These guys set up an obstacle course for squirrels and one of them was this spring platform that would go almost vertical when landed upon and each one stuck to it like glue.
'Tis my guess anyways.
Cubi don't need souls to survive...well...save for their own. Many a Cubi have spent their entire existance soul-stealing free and have lived perfectly fine and happy lives. They just dont live as long or as powerful lives.
As such, emotional absorbing would be considered a natural trait. Soul-stealing would be considered a magical ability.
Ah, thanks!
So, does it work the same way with mind-reading? Is catching someone's current thoughts a natural ability and performing a mental scan to find out more a magical one?
I've never understood the severe line people tend to draw between magical and mundane in a fantasy world. One could possibly go so far as to say anything that happens in a world that is against the apparent laws of physics is attributable to some type of magic. But of course that is a very foggy definition. My issue with the line drawing is people who, in a D&D world for example, go and say that a level 20 Wizard uses magic but a level 20 Fighter does not. As far as I'm concerned, in D&D, the farthest a Fighter could go in level without *somehow* bending the generally accepted laws of physics would be level 5 or so. The fighter may not be conjuring burning balls of flasme that incinerate crowds of people, but there is something giving him a supernatural level of endurance to attack and awareness of his opponents. Otherwise there would be no way for anyone but a spellcaster to have any chance at all of countering another spellcaster. There is magic at work there, just a different type.
As for spell resistence and immunities. I imagine that there can really be no such thing as total magic immunity. I assume that dead magic zones and spell resistance work by making an area, object or person able to avoid the influence of certain types and intensities of magical forces. In other words, a wizard may not be able to cast big spells and some active magic protections may fail, but depending on how things are configured magic items with permanent effects may continue to function and subtle innate abilities may be unimpeded. As a general rule I don't like "not"s and "never"s, so I would assume that with enough magical energy pretty much any other magical effect can be countered. In other words, If you are a high level diety and you put your mind to it your ability to smite Bonehead the Lich will not be affected by his wearing a cloak that makes him immune to divine magic and death spells.
I use the logic that any sufficiently advanced technology IS magic.
In the futuristic setting I work in, it's an easy distinction to make when enough 'nanotech' thrown at anything is sparkly enough to be called magic. I give various species special abilities by giving them a reason to not use the nanites already in their body, so it collects in various body parts to be used in a different manner, like having unsigned code in a computer that you can control.
This way, I get to have my magic, but at any time if I want to get rid of it, I can just claim some sort of nano-cancelling field that nullifies both magic and technology! It's great!
Quote from: Jigsaw Forte on August 12, 2006, 12:30:58 AM
I use the logic that any sufficiently advanced technology IS magic.
That's funny. I look at it the other way around.
Magic is a form of technology.
Maybe they're both the same thing achieved in different ways.
Quote from: Gabi on August 13, 2006, 08:45:11 AM
Maybe they're both the same thing achieved in different ways.
Or maybe magic is a sort of energy field just like electromagnetism?
Quote from: ITOS on August 13, 2006, 11:04:16 AM
Quote from: Gabi on August 13, 2006, 08:45:11 AM
Maybe they're both the same thing achieved in different ways.
Or maybe magic is a sort of energy field just like electromagnetism?
That's the way I've been thinking in my writings - that magic is based on a property of the universe as yet undiscovered by us.
China Mieville's
Perdido Street Station does much the same thing - the inhabitants of New Crobuzon have a quasi-Victorian technology although they seem to be descended from Earth colonists. One of my favourites was the machine (part magic, part electrical) which they'd made to summon daemons by artificially replicating the conditions brought about by a sacrifice.
IIRC, magic worked at the quantum level and the hero was trying to make a grand unified field theory that tied together physics, magic and chaos.