Mers are Still good looking with all the spikes.
I could go for some giant lobster..
*Charline feh* I'm not one for seafood anyway! ;P It gives me hives. :<
Giant lobsters and butter.
Sounds like a great time to spend an evening, eh?
The question is; how much butter?
Quote from: PurpleCheeseLlama on May 14, 2008, 06:54:36 PM
The question is; how much butter?
trick it into getting into a bathtub of butter, thats how much
Quote from: Brunhidden on May 14, 2008, 08:10:29 PM
Quote from: PurpleCheeseLlama on May 14, 2008, 06:54:36 PM
The question is; how much butter?
trick it into getting into a bathtub of butter, thats how much
High in fat always does the trick
Shame, that was a cute Orca Anthro. Love the hair...
...
*YOINK*
Quote from: Alondro on May 14, 2008, 06:45:10 PM
*Charline feh* I'm not one for seafood anyway! ;P It gives me hives. :<
Hives give me bees.
just for giggles are you going to go over the pygmy shrews at fluffies expence and something seems different about your character have you change something i can't figure it out
I really love Fluffy's musings and the expressions in the last two panels xD
And just because I felt like doing some SVG work again: The chart so far (http://www.youkai.de/Hybrids.svg) and a JPG copy (http://www.youkai.de/Hybrids.jpg) for those who have trouble with SVG files.
(Should be error-free, I think...)
I'll keep this updated as the updates roll in, I guess. We could put it on the WikuWiki once it's complete, maybe. Dunno.
Quote from: AmigaDragon on May 14, 2008, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: Alondro on May 14, 2008, 06:45:10 PM
*Charline feh* I'm not one for seafood anyway! ;P It gives me hives. :<
Hives give me bees.
And do bees give you a buzz? :P
And Charline, I thought you were already on a seafood diet. Whenever
you see food, you want to eat it.
Quote from: AmigaDragon on May 14, 2008, 09:21:34 PM
Quote from: Alondro on May 14, 2008, 06:45:10 PM
*Charline feh* I'm not one for seafood anyway! ;P It gives me hives. :<
Hives give me bees.
*nods* And the bees give stings, which then give rise to more hives, thus perpetuating a vicious cycle with no end... :<
Quote from: Raiettei on May 14, 2008, 06:52:26 PM
Giant lobsters and butter.
Sounds like a great time to spend an evening, eh?
?? What ?? Are you insane? The lobster are so crabby, and they don't like butter. They chaff even with butter. God they are so tasteless and clueless...
PBH
That made me Lol considering i am going to Red Lobster for dinner on friday... When everone is eating their lobaster.. I'm going to be thinking "tho poor, poor Mer" :mowhappy
Quote from: Prof B Hunnydew on May 14, 2008, 10:21:39 PM
Quote from: Raiettei on May 14, 2008, 06:52:26 PM
Giant lobsters and butter.
Sounds like a great time to spend an evening, eh?
?? What ?? Are you insane? The lobster are so crabby, and they don't like butter. They chaff even with butter. God they are so tasteless and clueless...
PBH
Insane? Yes
Tasteless? Hardly
Clueless? Yes
Crabby? Not even the right species!
A more correct term would be... ahem... "lobstery"
Or even "Crusty"
Hm. I could go on!
Somewhat... "Buggy"
Maybe even... *randomly shot by forumite*
...Let's just stick with crabby.
OK, people.. Are you all seriously contemplating eating a sentient creature? >:[ Leave the anthro-lobsters alone!! They are nearly extinct already!
Nobody actually mentioned anthro (or even sentient) lobsters, just giant lobsters (yum).
Oh. Then it's fine! :3
beings being the way they are i'm sure a few of them would go to drastic measures to be with the ones the love even if they were genetically incompatible. in a world were magic works the possibilities get a little scary
.... wait.. you mean that giant lobster I fished up is actually a mer/insectis?
*calls in back*
Cancel that order for a giant pot! The thing is sentient, and probably nasty tasting.... oh, too late? Sneak its soul into Charline's food there, I hear seafood gives her hives. Would be a good ol' prank.
Quote from: Ren Gaulen on May 15, 2008, 12:39:44 AM
Leave the anthro-lobsters alone!!
Let's call it Britney :U
I'm far too easily amused.
Quote from: A race page of Ariannia's Cubi race.
It is also strictly forbidden by both Cubi and Thae'lith society for either one or the other to get together and produce a child, should the rare event occur, Both parents are exiled (or killed), and the child, unfortunately is destroyed, both sides fear the implication to such a degree, that such extreme measures need to be taken, and this is quite often seen as a joint effort between both Thae'lith and Cubi.
I'm personally very leery of hybrids, i'm one to believe that while the potential is there, some races wouldn't touch another with a forty foot barge pole. Either through cultural diversity, social taboos, or through sheer snobbery, or in this case, fear that the potential result would be dangerous for both races. >:3
If there's any setting more appropriate for a retelling of Romeo and Juliet...
Quote from: Sofox on May 15, 2008, 07:59:24 AM
If there's any setting more appropriate for a retelling of Romeo and Juliet...
only if both lovers are hunted down in such a fashion that'd make the witch-hunts look like a game of hide and seek, then ruthlessly slaughtered, tortured, or buried alive for their lengthy lives, yeah.
Quote from: Turnsky on May 15, 2008, 08:01:51 AM
only if both lovers are hunted down in such a fashion that'd make the witch-hunts look like a game of hide and seek, then ruthlessly slaughtered, tortured, or buried alive for their lengthy lives, yeah.
'Cubi are rare, Thae'lith are rare and Ariannia is a very big world. While I'm not sure I want to see it either, the possibility for elopement is very real. It might have been simpler and easier to just have made the two genetically incompatible and removed the problem in the first place...
Um, anyway. Back to Amber's world, I'm curious about hybrids within a race. E.g. both Beings, but one a cat and one a dog, and so on. So far, that looks like it's atomic, i.e. the result is either a cat or a dog. However that does raise the question of what happens within a species, e.g. one a Doberman and the other a Dalmatian, for instance. Would that work as in real life, I wonder?
Quote from: Tapewolf on May 15, 2008, 08:10:16 AM
'Cubi are rare, Thae'lith are rare and Ariannia is a very big world. While I'm not sure I want to see it either, the possibility for elopement is very real. It might have been simpler and easier to just have made the two genetically incompatible and removed the problem in the first place...
he says to the person holding the red notebook that says otherwise.. let's just say the last time any 'cubi attempted a Thae'lith coupling, their pelt adorns a wall of House Endaris... i won't mention where the entrails went.. as for the Thae'lith... their punishment was... even more severe, trust me. >:3 both parties keep close tabs on eachother
Quote
Um, anyway. Back to Amber's world, I'm curious about hybrids within a race. E.g. both Beings, but one a cat and one a dog, and so on. So far, that looks like it's atomic, i.e. the result is either a cat or a dog. However that does raise the question of what happens within a species, e.g. one a Doberman and the other a Dalmatian, for instance. Would that work as in real life, I wonder?
i read a news report where a Dachsund fathered pups to a Dalmatian, Tape. Essentually any pairing within the specific tree of a species genus would work.
Quote from: Turnsky on May 15, 2008, 08:46:26 AM
i read a news report where a Dachsund fathered pups to a Dalmatian, Tape. Essentually any pairing within the specific tree of a species genus would work.
Yes - that, after all, is how we ended up with the variety of dog breeds we have... through selective interbreeding. The point, where DMFA is concerned, is slightly more subtle.
I don't know offhand how old the main breeds we have on Earth are. I know that the Doberman only goes back to the 1800s.
With DMFA, Beings are older than our recorded history by an order of magnitude or more.
If true interbreeding works in DMFA, the question in its entirety is: Why haven't the canines interbred, over that period, into a single homogeneous 'dog' type? The reason that hasn't happened here is because we are deliberately keeping things that way.
(EDIT: And this is a problem for wolves, where their stock is diluted by interbreeding with domestic dogs)
Now, two possible answers that spring to mind are that each breed has a core of members who are trying to keep their race pure, kind of like the wizarding families in Harry Potter.
The other is that interbreeding is limited in some ways, such that you don't easily get hybrids.
(The third answer is "because it's a cartoon and you're overthinking things")
I'll take door number 3, for $50, if you would, please. ;-]
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 09:20:43 AM
I'll take door number 3, for $50, if you would, please. ;-]
It has practical implications for fanfic writers, though. Specifically, I'm curious because of Dorcan's family tree in
Future History. IIRC the family tree is something like:
Mordrith Jyraneth (Doberman) + Julei Jyraneth (Husky)
|
Neremath Ja'Fell (Husky) + Salomere (Doberman)
|
Dorcan Ja'Fell (Doberman)
Would a Husky/Doberman pairing get you some weird 'Husky Pinscher' puppies, as it would in reality?
Mind you, in this case things get weird because they're all 'Cubi and we don't really know what that does. The fact that a 'Cubi-Being pair will have offspring resembling the Being suggests to me that they'd probably get a pure-blood offspring of either
race breed, but ultimately it's something only Amber can answer.
Quote from: Tapewolf on May 15, 2008, 08:56:44 AM
Now, two possible answers that spring to mind are that each breed has a core of members who are trying to keep their race pure, kind of like the wizarding families in Harry Potter.
The other is that interbreeding is limited in some ways, such that you don't easily get hybrids.
(The third answer is "because it's a cartoon and you're overthinking things")
There might be a third (or fourth) such as the hybrids may be embarrassed by their heritage, and patches and/or magic may... you know... change that on the surface.
(That third answer is my mantra! I live by those words!)
another approach would be the 'mule' concept- lets say species A and B can breed, but it produces species C instead of either A or B, and species C cant breed with jack squat, not even other C's
yeah, for those of you who don't use the animal husbandry skill in a vigorous manner- when you breed a horse with a donkey you get a mule, which has some positive traits from both parents, but is completely sterile
1: I dont really bother with much in regards to different species, (IE: dogs pairing up with cats) and tend to just draw whatever looks well. Which means sometimes one side will act dominant (Example: Lorenda has her fathers bovine frame, but her mothers colouring and traits) Where as other times I may mesh the two into something. I dont really consider being/being of two different animal types hybrids at this point.
2: The lists in the Hybrid Genetic comics I am making are what can actually happen. These are more or less, written in stone. This isnt a list of what exists already, but just what is done. So if it isnt on the half-breed list, they cannot have a half-breed...no if/ands/buts. There are some things even magic cant do. While there may be relationships between non-halfbreed compatible races, children are a no-option.
And believe me, there are many instances where even though two are half-breed compatible, the races dont get along enough so there isnt really any. But the possibility is there and that is what I am covering.
I am finding Turnsky has left the possibility open for a half-breed, but keeps insinuating that it is impossible because of the two races disdain for eachother. To me, that is a mistake...unless Turnsky secretly does want half-breeds of the two to exist. Because if he leaves the option open, of course people are going to take it and make exceptions to its case. I have found in my internet travels that is simply a lot easier to either flat out say "no. These two races cannot have kids. End of story." or leave the half-breed option available but give a note that its rare. Cause the harder one tries to imply that a half-breed between two races that hate eachother is...the more tasty and appetizing it will look to people who want to make a cool character with a tragic backstory.
NUUUUUUU!!! T.T
No cute anthro dolphins T.T
Genetics and physiology usually mean no half-breeds for most things, unless the species has incredible magical abilities which make it possible by bypassing genetics, or manipulating the genes of the interbreeding species into a compatible form.
Magic solves everything! That's why you can always say for something that seems illogical in a story, "A wizard did it!" :3
Quote from: Alondro on May 15, 2008, 02:06:41 PM
Genetics and physiology usually mean no half-breeds for most things, unless the species has incredible magical abilities which make it possible by bypassing genetics, or manipulating the genes of the interbreeding species into a compatible form.
Magic solves everything! That's why you can always say for something that seems illogical in a story, "A wizard did it!" :3
Except that for all intents and purposes, the child can probably be considered a construct, rather than an offspring, of the parents.
...wow... there is a very thim line between magic and genetics...
Quote from: Amber Williams on May 15, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
1: I dont really bother with much in regards to different species, (IE: dogs pairing up with cats) and tend to just draw whatever looks well. Which means sometimes one side will act dominant (Example: Lorenda has her fathers bovine frame, but her mothers colouring and traits) Where as other times I may mesh the two into something. I dont really consider being/being of two different animal types hybrids at this point.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Since it seems to be artistically motivated rather than rule-based, I'll take that as 'undefined' :3
Quote from: Alondro on May 15, 2008, 02:06:41 PM
Genetics and physiology usually mean no half-breeds for most things, unless the species has incredible magical abilities which make it possible by bypassing genetics, or manipulating the genes of the interbreeding species into a compatible form.
Well, we are talking about a story which has sapient animals, so hard science can be considered something of a luxury...
Somewhat off-topic, but out of morbid curiosity I managed to locate a Doberman-Husky hybrid:
http://www.dogfriendly.com/server/general/gallery/images/duke.jpg (direct to image)
http://www.dogfriendly.com/server/general/gallery/photos8.shtml (page)
On the topic of hybrids, can Deebs make a hybrid?
A good rule of thumb is that I try to follow science when I can, but when it is more complex than my own understanding, magic will usually fill the gaps.
And a good joke or neat design trumps even that. :B
Since it's the catchall category, is Deebs a mythos? Or because she's created life, would she count as the undead?
Quote from: terrycloth on May 15, 2008, 05:21:12 PM
Since it's the catchall category, is Deebs a mythos? Or because she's created life, would she count as the undead?
I would just classify Deebs as a construct, because she is an artificial life form. She cannot be related to any of the existing races, after all..
I don't know that I'd go so far as "cannot" - I'd settle for "probably not, although it's a bit vague and handwavey, and you might say related to the kangaroo rat himself, in a way."
Which is a heck of a mouthful...
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 05:44:46 PM
..and you might say related to the kangaroo rat himself, in a way..
Yeah, in a philosophical kind of way. :3 By the way, does anybody remember that Jyrras apparently created some kind of an AI (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_376.php)?
Quote from: Ren Gaulen on May 15, 2008, 05:52:47 PM
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 05:44:46 PM
..and you might say related to the kangaroo rat himself, in a way..
Yeah, in a philosophical kind of way. :3 By the way, does anybody remember that Jyrras apparently created some kind of an AI (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_376.php)?
Oh, no, not philosophical. Remember, Deebs is made from chewing gum. Specifically, chewing gum that Jyrras himself has chewed; I believe Amber mentioned that he can add to her mass by chewing on gum and then giving it to her, but just giving her more gum doesn't work.
So there's an element of Jy-Jy's DNA involved.
And yes, I remember Deeb's sibling. I'm awaiting official learning of what she or he looks like, what gender he or she has decided to be (it's not clear from the comic, although I seem to recall a Jy pic that had the little AI lurking around in it; I just don't recall what it looked like, off the top of my head), and how Jy is dealing with it.
Given his current progress with Abel and Lorenda, I'd say by standing in a river in Egypt... ;-]
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 06:10:19 PM
Oh, no, not philosophical. Remember, Deebs is made from chewing gum. Specifically, chewing gum that Jyrras himself has chewed; I believe Amber mentioned that he can add to her mass by chewing on gum and then giving it to her, but just giving her more gum doesn't work.
So there's an element of Jy-Jy's DNA involved.
Interesting. I didn't know that. It actually makes sense.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 06:10:19 PM
And yes, I remember Deeb's sibling. I'm awaiting official learning of what she or he looks like, what gender he or she has decided to be.
Deebs calls the AI a sister right in that strip. (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_376.php) Then again, we are talking about an
AI here, so it can't be that easy to tell.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 06:10:19 PM
Given his current progress with Abel and Lorenda, I'd say by standing in a river in Egypt... ;-]
Why does it make me sing "Row, row, fight the power"?.. :sweatdrop But you're right. De Nile is made for Jyrras.
I'm remembering that along with chewing gum and J-DNA, she also incorporated pure magic. So would it have to be with another highly magical race? Or is the magic just the bond that binds her together?
Or come to think of it, this would be 'unkown' on all counts.
(....unless theres some crazy action thats not in the comic...but Deebs isn't like that, right?)
Quote from: Amber Williams on May 15, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
1: I dont really bother with much in regards to different species, (IE: dogs pairing up with cats) and tend to just draw whatever looks well. Which means sometimes one side will act dominant (Example: Lorenda has her fathers bovine frame, but her mothers colouring and traits) Where as other times I may mesh the two into something. I dont really consider being/being of two different animal types hybrids at this point.
2: The lists in the Hybrid Genetic comics I am making are what can actually happen. These are more or less, written in stone. This isnt a list of what exists already, but just what is done. So if it isnt on the half-breed list, they cannot have a half-breed...no if/ands/buts. There are some things even magic cant do. While there may be relationships between non-halfbreed compatible races, children are a no-option.
And believe me, there are many instances where even though two are half-breed compatible, the races dont get along enough so there isnt really any. But the possibility is there and that is what I am covering.
First off, that you are doing it this way is very good and as you are covering all possibilities, we fans know what fan characters can be made, with no confusion causing problems. Go Amber!
Quote from: Amber Williams on May 15, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
I am finding Turnsky has left the possibility open for a half-breed, but keeps insinuating that it is impossible because of the two races disdain for eachother. To me, that is a mistake...unless Turnsky secretly does want half-breeds of the two to exist. Because if he leaves the option open, of course people are going to take it and make exceptions to its case. I have found in my internet travels that is simply a lot easier to either flat out say "no. These two races cannot have kids. End of story." or leave the half-breed option available but give a note that its rare. Cause the harder one tries to imply that a half-breed between two races that hate eachother is...the more tasty and appetizing it will look to people who want to make a cool character with a tragic backstory.
I laughed out loud at this because Turnsky and I had a heated IRC discussion about this very thing. I kept coming up with implausible ways for Hairless-species-'Cubi to happen, and he basically wrote that paragraph because of me(He had something more simple and much less definite before).
(Anyone else wondering about the information in question: http://www.ariannia.com/races/cubi/ bottom of the page).
Of cource, now that this is brought up, one *does* wonder if such a hybrid* would be extremely powerful, which is why its forbidden! Fan-fic time!
*If it can't be done naturally, I guess you just need a crazy scientist and a bunch of cloning equipment, creating the hybrid from scratch! >:3
<_< I shouldn't start thinking about such things... I keep coming up with implausible(but not impossible) ideas, even now!
-RobbieThe1st
hmmm...Cubi traits seem to pop over anything else, so would their genetic makeup pretty much just code for magic? So is being a Cubi a largely magical state? If it is Jyrras should definitely separate it out(like he did for pure magic) so he can turn others Cubi/turn Cubi non.
(Cubi Deebs shall rule the world...yesss)
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on May 15, 2008, 06:10:19 PM
And yes, I remember Deeb's sibling. I'm awaiting official learning of what she or he looks like, what gender he or she has decided to be (it's not clear from the comic, although I seem to recall a Jy pic that had the little AI lurking around in it; I just don't recall what it looked like, off the top of my head), and how Jy is dealing with it.
I think you mean this image (http://www.missmab.com/Art/Images/Jy_Vention.jpg). Not sure whether or not helps in the gender-issue, though. Also not sure if that pic should be considered canon (except maybe far-future canon, considering his outfit).
Quote from: Amber Williams on May 15, 2008, 12:35:15 PM
I am finding Turnsky has left the possibility open for a half-breed, but keeps insinuating that it is impossible because of the two races disdain for eachother. To me, that is a mistake...unless Turnsky secretly does want half-breeds of the two to exist. Because if he leaves the option open, of course people are going to take it and make exceptions to its case. I have found in my internet travels that is simply a lot easier to either flat out say "no. These two races cannot have kids. End of story." or leave the half-breed option available but give a note that its rare. Cause the harder one tries to imply that a half-breed between two races that hate eachother is...the more tasty and appetizing it will look to people who want to make a cool character with a tragic backstory.
a fair cop, really there's two reasonings for me wanting to leave it open, One being the possibility for a major plot point in the future, the other is more a "sanctioned license" thing, where if i fully flesh out the details of what such a hybrid can do, the plausibility for a separate story in its own right is there as well, i know it comes off as a "I'd prefer if you didn't think about it" instead of an "AW HELL NO", i like to keep my options open, 'tis all.. In reality, if there were such a hybrid to pop up, i'd like to be the one to do the writing, or somebody i can trust, who'd consult with me beforehand.
Quote from: RobbieThe1st on May 15, 2008, 10:27:39 PM
Of cource, now that this is brought up, one *does* wonder if such a hybrid* would be extremely powerful, which is why its forbidden! Fan-fic time!
*If it can't be done naturally, I guess you just need a crazy scientist and a bunch of cloning equipment, creating the hybrid from scratch! >:3
<_< I shouldn't start thinking about such things... I keep coming up with implausible(but not impossible) ideas, even now!
-RobbieThe1st
Start running, now. I didn't really say it was impossible, i pretty much said that it'd end with entrails of both parents and child spilt on the floor, Ariannia's magical fields tend to permeate everything on the Planet, a child of that magical potential would be like dropping a fifty pound cannon ball into a koi pond... people even remotely attuned to it would notice it, those more expert in its usage would know where it came from, particularly the Thae'lith and Cubi, who are practically a part of Ariannia itself, they'd be on the parents like white on rice, as it were.
as for other species... well, Orcs don't exist for the simple reasoning that the local Draconic species (Dra'kilari and M'Dilari alike) think they're "quite good if roasted over an open fire after being seasoned with herbs" >:3
Quote from: Sid on May 15, 2008, 11:08:15 PM
I think you mean this image (http://www.missmab.com/Art/Images/Jy_Vention.jpg). Not sure whether or not helps in the gender-issue, though. Also not sure if that pic should be considered canon (except maybe far-future canon, considering his outfit).
I did indeed mean that image. Although, as Ren pointed out earlier, the strip where the Ai makes her first appearance, Deebs identifies her as a her, not a him; also as Ren pointed out, that's not conclusive, although it is strongly suggestive...
I'm betting that the AI "sister" from this will grow up to have a main role in Portal...
Wouldn't an Anthro Orca like the one in the picture be a possible Being type (not a mer?) Assuming this is one with legs.
Quote from: Lucheek on May 16, 2008, 07:12:43 AM
Wouldn't an Anthro Orca like the one in the picture be a possible Being type (not a mer?) Assuming this is one with legs.
quick answer to this- yes, provided the being in question just so happens to be a shapeshifter
Well, that's the first time I've seen an anthro cetacian that is actually cute.
A couple things I'm curious about. Speaking of mules, when the parents' appearances resemble species of animals that can interbreed to produce hybrids naturally, will their babies also resemble the hybrid? (Ex. Horse being + Donkey being = Mule/Hinny being? I'm assuming their offspring are fertile regardless of the natural state of such animals.) Also, since the offspring of wildly different looking beings tend to resemble either one parent's "species' or the other, can they also throw back to a grandparent's (or further back) looks? Say if mom's a hyena, and dad's a springbok, can they have a baby that resembles its grandfather who is a lion?
Quote from: Violet Dusk on May 16, 2008, 07:53:46 AM
Well, that's the first time I've seen an anthro cetacian that is actually cute.
A couple things I'm curious about. Speaking of mules, when the parents' appearances resemble species of animals that can interbreed to produce hybrids naturally, will their babies also resemble the hybrid? (Ex. Horse being + Donkey being = Mule/Hinny being? I'm assuming their offspring are fertile regardless of the natural state of such animals.) Also, since the offspring of wildly different looking beings tend to resemble either one parent's "species' or the other, can they also throw back to a grandparent's (or further back) looks? Say if mom's a hyena, and dad's a springbok, can they have a baby that resembles its grandfather who is a lion?
*Charline sobs!* Tis true! It can happen! I ended up eating them both... >:3
*Not canon. Charline was actually adopted* :P
Quote from: Tycoon on May 16, 2008, 06:56:41 AM
I'm betting that the AI "sister" from this will grow up to have a main role in Portal...
The cake is a lie only because Deebs already ate it.
On the generation skipping traits, I cant recall seeing anyone's grandparents on the strip.(except for a partial glance at Rose's but the Fae don't seem to follow patterns) On the other hand with Lorenda(Mare+Bull, Cow base with mothers colors) one might
assume that if she ever had male offspring that had the bull base, theyd have horns, but thats not quite skipping generations. Though maybe coloring, some of them might have their grandfathers solid black?