Since cubi can change their shape size and other such stuff, can they possibly change into working machines? (like say a clockwork clock): Basically with enough practice what is the most complex things a cubi can shapechange into?
Discuss
I'd say that whatever shape they assume they're still going to have to have internal organs.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 19, 2012, 10:29:30 AM
I'd say that whatever shape they assume they're still going to have to have internal organs.
I'm assuming they can change their organ size too, maybe get rid of useless organs living a life of a Clockcubi (you wouldn't need to sleep, eat, or have muscles, so that's most of the organs gone.
At the core of their race, Cubi are still organic creatures. They can change certain aesthetic aspects, but overall they still require the basic essentials that most living creatures require to function. The key thing is concentration. Changing the outer aspects and certain physical traits is a lot easier, but it is in a way like flexing a particular muscle. The more complicated and internal one goes though, the more concentration is required. Much for the same reason a Cubi cannot actually become another gender fully and internally, the concentration that would be required to alter such an aspect of their internal structure would be quite immense and time consuming...and require their full concentration to maintain. And I don't think any Cubi has the concentration and skill to be able to pull off something like clockwork in place of their organs.
Cubi shapechanging is primarily all aesthetic. Sure one can make the outer shell look like all sorts of things, but inside they run on the same things and defaults.
Hmm, concentration - does that mean that a cubi reverts to base form if killed while shapeshifted?
Quote from: Amber Williams on January 19, 2012, 11:16:42 AM
-snip-
heh interesting infodump. But if a cubi changes his wings to a simple mechanical contraption would it still work? and with enough practicse would he be able to basically make highly complex things out of his wings?
Here I'm assuming cubi can shapechange wings into different elements (like bronze plastic and ect.... )
Quote from: VAE on January 19, 2012, 11:54:25 AM
Hmm, concentration - does that mean that a cubi reverts to base form if killed while shapeshifted?
I'd be amazed if they didn't. We know that Abel reverted when he lost consciousness, though IIRC there is a way to make it run like a background motor task such as breathing. That takes more effort to set up in the first place. However I would fully expect them to snap back into their original form on death, like a stretched rubber band being released.
Quote from: Ignuus66 on January 19, 2012, 12:02:27 PM
heh interesting infodump. But if a cubi changes his wings to a simple mechanical contraption would it still work?
I think your big problem is going to be making separate parts.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 19, 2012, 12:06:05 PM
I think your big problem is going to be making separate parts.
Considering cubi can shapeshift plate armor (which is made out of several different pieces) at a whim, I doubt that would be a problem, If I recall the more pieces a thing has the harder it is to make it.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 19, 2012, 12:06:05 PM
Quote from: VAE on January 19, 2012, 11:54:25 AM
Hmm, concentration - does that mean that a cubi reverts to base form if killed while shapeshifted?
I'd be amazed if they didn't. We know that Abel reverted when he lost consciousness, though IIRC there is a way to make it run like a background motor task such as breathing. That takes more effort to set up in the first place. However I would fully expect them to snap back into their original form on death, like a stretched rubber band being released.
Thanks, loads. I actually forgot about that one entirely.
Quote from: Ignuus66 on January 19, 2012, 12:14:07 PM
Considering cubi can shapeshift plate armor (which is made out of several different pieces) at a whim, I doubt that would be a problem, If I recall the more pieces a thing has the harder it is to make it.
True, but it's likely Abel's armour was largely fake, i.e. glued to him. I could be wrong, but I'd be a little surprised if you could have, say, removed one of the gauntlets or boots.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 19, 2012, 12:34:51 PM
True, but it's likely Abel's armour was largely fake, i.e. glued to him. I could be wrong, but I'd be a little surprised if you could have, say, removed one of the gauntlets or boots.
Well considering the standard skirts abel wears, I don't think they are glued there
Quote from: Ignuus66 on January 19, 2012, 12:14:07 PM
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 19, 2012, 12:06:05 PM
I think your big problem is going to be making separate parts.
Considering cubi can shapeshift plate armor (which is made out of several different pieces) at a whim, I doubt that would be a problem, If I recall the more pieces a thing has the harder it is to make it.
Hmm, The separate parts might still be linked (think of a plate armour that's fused with an underlying soft layer, like an argentinian armadillo) - this would still work well with shapeshifting.
However, rotary motion, something you need for gears which are really the basic part of any machinery, requires the free rotary movement of something relative to something else (pinion to gear, or pinion to rack, for example), something you can't really accomplish with a single-piece structure. Which is i think why you don't find such motion anywhere in nature, except some bacteria spinning their whips in propeller-like manner.
The whips are filaments and cilia I believe and they are composed of multiple strands composing a single unit so yeah...
Quote from: VAE on January 19, 2012, 01:02:36 PM
-snip-
yeah, I'm guessing that might be a problem, but I'm thinking that that can be countered (if it is a problem) with a few strands of well placed fabric.
I think the big problem you are having is you are assuming Cubi are capable of creating alchemy with their shapechanging (actually changing their body into another element) but in reality Cubi are more doing a good form of costume illusion. Abel's platemail, as everyone guessed at, was not accurate platemail in that he could actually take it off...but simply various padding and shapechanging made to look similar to platemail. As for Abel's skirt, that would have been made by probably taking a couple millimeters off his fur...which is why it could be damaged by Jyrras with the knife in that scene. (And truth be told if the hanging part did get cut off, the black would be turned back into fur. But Abel would not actually be able to remove the skirt at it's base where its attached. That is the reason why Abel's "morphed" clothes tend to be so skimpy or form fitting like the boots.
A lot of Cubi is about simply making their shapechanging "look" like something else. Not actually them changing the physical composition.
What about the extent of size change when shapeshifting?
I remember that Aary shifted into a poodle at a time, when Pip was trying to say Fa'lina came about.
Well keep in mind that I have been known to piddle on some laws of physics because I find a punchline or joke funny. There are a few strips where it's punchline first/logic later if not out the window. It's kind of hard to really put reason on things when Abel's been able to fit into a bowl and the current comic uploaded has Mink hammer-spaced in Fa'Lina's cleavage without any noticable bulge. :U
Quote from: Amber Williams on January 19, 2012, 02:28:23 PM
I think the big problem you are having is you are assuming Cubi are capable of creating alchemy with their shapechanging (actually changing their body into another element) but in reality Cubi are more doing a good form of costume illusion. Abel's platemail, as everyone guessed at, was not accurate platemail in that he could actually take it off...but simply various padding and shapechanging made to look similar to platemail. As for Abel's skirt, that would have been made by probably taking a couple millimeters off his fur...which is why it could be damaged by Jyrras with the knife in that scene. (And truth be told if the hanging part did get cut off, the black would be turned back into fur. But Abel would not actually be able to remove the skirt at it's base where its attached. That is the reason why Abel's "morphed" clothes tend to be so skimpy or form fitting like the boots.
A lot of Cubi is about simply making their shapechanging "look" like something else. Not actually them changing the physical composition.
Quite a big wall of information :erk Anyhow that answered my question well enough, thanks!
Quote from: Amber Williams on January 19, 2012, 03:02:02 PM
It's kind of hard to really put reason on things
that's my problem right there :P anyway thanks for replies feel free to discuss the now derailed topic!
For those wondering the intricate comic making process I endure, I have enclosed a quickly put together flowchart.
(http://www.missmab.com/graphics/FlowChart.gif)
That flowchart is very informative. It would explain all the mentions to the lack of a punchline on the more dramatic scenes. Not that I ever felt they need it, I think the comic's serious moments are as good as the funny ones, just in a different way.
Oh, and I like armadillos. :3
Quote from: Amber Williams on January 19, 2012, 03:02:02 PM
... and the current comic uploaded has Mink hammer-spaced in Fa'Lina's cleavage without any noticable bulge. :U
Oh, I think Fa'Lina has a noticeable bulge there.
Quite remarkably noticeable, in fact.
I remember her commenting on Abel _not_ noticing it, as it happens... ;-]
Quote from: Amber Williams on January 19, 2012, 03:02:02 PM
Well keep in mind that I have been known to piddle on some laws of physics because I find a punchline or joke funny. There are a few strips where it's punchline first/logic later if not out the window. It's kind of hard to really put reason on things when Abel's been able to fit into a bowl and the current comic uploaded has Mink hammer-spaced in Fa'Lina's cleavage without any noticable bulge. :U
But are Cubi capable of altering their size, at least to some degree? If they can't size-shift to the extent shown in the strips where physics may have taken a back seat for comedy, then what is the limit?
I mean, in this rejected strip (http://missmab.xepher.net/graphics/Jy_Gusta.jpg), Abel mentions that he can
increase his density. If Abel can alter his body density in order to temporarily strengthen and reinforce his muscles, how much of a step forward would it be to do that with every tissue in the body?
Even though altering their internal structure takes a lot more concentration, how much concentration would it take for a Cubi to just increase their overall density and reduce their size, or go in the opposite direction to take on a larger form?
Since different species have different average body sizes, how difficult would be for, say, an equine Cubi to shape-shift into a rodent being?
Is it doable with enough concentration, or are Cubi basically limited to forms that are around the same average size as their base species?
Also on the topic of density alteration and mass redistribution, is it possible for Cubi to alter their natural number of limbs? I mean, it would probably take more concentration than it's worth to shape-shift and control a fully functioning second set of arms or legs, but what about the opposite direction?
What if a Cubi with four arms wanted to take the form of an average two-armed being? Or what if any Cubi wanted to impersonate an amputee?
Could they temporarily shape-shift their extra body parts away, or possibly shrink and hide them under other shape-shifted components, or would doing either require just as much concentration as growing another set of limbs?
And now, I'd like to take the opportunity to go off on a little bit of a tangent, since I'm quite curious about the subject of size-shifting, not only in Cubi, but in other species that are capable of it.
In terms of size changing in general, are there spells that can mimic the natural ability of dragons and class B phoenixes to switch between two forms of radically different sizes? How exactly does their natural ability work anyway?
Are they magically generating and destroying matter and violating other physics to fuel a massive cell mitosis or apoptosis at hyper speed to morph between their forms? I'd expect this from dragons, who can have magical ability rivaling that of Fae, but what about class B phoenixes?
Or is it something more along the lines of basically having two separate bodies, and swapping them out of something like hammer-space in an instant? Since there's a species of mythos that has two completely separate physical bodies but only one mind/soul shared between them, I think this could be possible.
I'd have to check to make sure, but I don't think there's been a single strip that has shown a dragon or class B phoenix "in-between" their forms, which would indicate morphing a single body between the two forms. The closest that's been shown are instances of Pyroduck (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_684.php) and Shanna (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_911.php) having the eyes of their larger forms.
That's why I'm curious as to whether they're morphing a single body or swapping between two separate ones.
And now I'm done asking questions. Whether or not they're directly answered, it feels good to just get them out there for others to discuss and speculate on. :)
I think a big key thing is to always remember that DMFA is a fantasy comic, and one that tends to veer towards humor. I find the biggest problem with trying to nail down physics of magic is that it will inevitably cause some sort of plothole as later on down the road I will do a comic that breaks the rules set down. So I find it easier to simply not make any rules all that strong. If I try to make some on-the-fly reasoning for why something happens, it's likely that months to years later I will do a comic that completely flies in the face of it.
There are some guidelines that I try to go by, but just about all of them I'd gladly toss out the window if it means the comic I'm drawing is making me giggle all the way. If folks want to decide "It's magic. I ain't got to explain anything." or come up with intricate overly complicated reasons to explain things, that is their choice and whatever makes them happiest. I like world-building to an extent, but I don't wish to choke myself on it.
Ah, okay, I get it now, and I want to apologize for my question overload. I sometimes get overzealous in my curiosity.
It's good to know the rules of shape-shifting aren't that strict, especially when it comes to writing fan-fictions. ;)
It's not an issue. I feel somewhat bad I don't have actual in-depth answers to most of things. But yeah...on average there is a lot of stuff I have deliberately left vague and open-ended because I prefer the room to move around in. The big downside to getting overly technical is sometime it results in you hitting a roadblock because a scene you had in mind no longer can work due to a world-building rule you set in place earlier.
Personally I have general guidelines of what Cubi shapeshifting entails, but I also like to keep it open that in such a world there are always possible exceptions. For example, I made it a ruling that Cubi cannot actually change their gender fully via shapeshifting. Yeah, they can make a good mockup of the other gender's dangly parts, but the internal chemistry is still default. So you cannot have a male Cubi change to female and get pregnant.
For a lot of Cubi shapechanging, a good portion of it is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Which is also the reason Cubi tend to be such pushovers in actual combat. Because by and large it's far easier to simply make it appear one looks tough than it is to actually be tough.
Mink's bust-diving reminded me a lot of Clemente diving into the Mulatona's breasts, but I doubt you've seen them before.
Quote from: Amber Williams on January 20, 2012, 03:45:43 AM
It's not an issue. I feel somewhat bad I don't have actual in-depth answers to most of things. But yeah...on average there is a lot of stuff I have deliberately left vague and open-ended because I prefer the room to move around in. The big downside to getting overly technical is sometime it results in you hitting a roadblock because a scene you had in mind no longer can work due to a world-building rule you set in place earlier.
Well, no need to feel bad about it. If you care at all, about half the reason I love DMFA is the rather awesome worldbuilding. I mean, there are *books* which do far, far worse in both depth and consistency, and they have the advantage of publishing all in one chunk, so back-fit editing can be done which isn't really possible with a comic.
Quote
For a lot of Cubi shapechanging, a good portion of it is a lot of smoke and mirrors. Which is also the reason Cubi tend to be such pushovers in actual combat. Because by and large it's far easier to simply make it appear one looks tough than it is to actually be tough.
For some reason, this reminds me of the inflatable Charles Atlas bodysuit gag from I think Looney Tunes where I saw it last.
Question, if instead of the cubi shapeshifting into a machine, he or she changed their wings to hold the components like the mounting bracket for different gear locations. While that's not becoming a machine, it is holding one together.
Quote from: js8546 on January 20, 2012, 05:26:38 PM
Question, if instead of the cubi shapeshifting into a machine, he or she changed their wings to hold the components like the mounting bracket for different gear locations. While that's not becoming a machine, it is holding one together.
Just.. why would they do it?
Except for Dimanika Clan, maybe.
Quote from: VAE on January 20, 2012, 06:06:32 PM
Just.. why would they do it?
well for one you can disguise yourself pretty well as an inanimate object I guess. Also it would be funny.
Quote from: Ignuus66 on January 21, 2012, 02:01:30 AM
Quote from: VAE on January 20, 2012, 06:06:32 PM
Just.. why would they do it?
well for one you can disguise yourself pretty well as an inanimate object I guess. Also it would be funny.
I can see it now: A Dimanika cuckoo clock.
Not only does it ring at the wrong time, it also moves around your house and changes color and appearance :D
-snip, kinda stupid post-
Either that or you can have a wristwatch that you'll never forget at home, or a cellphone that could run off magic and be kept on your person.
Quote from: Ignuus66 on January 21, 2012, 08:00:18 AM
Quote from: lilpuppy23 on January 21, 2012, 02:50:20 AM
I can see it now: A Dimanika cuckoo clock.
Not only does it ring at the wrong time, it also moves around your house and changes color and appearance :D
Not to mention eat all your food and wake you up at night :mwaha
And keep you up too *blush*
Quote from: justacritic on January 24, 2012, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: Ignuus66 on January 21, 2012, 08:00:18 AM
Quote from: lilpuppy23 on January 21, 2012, 02:50:20 AM
I can see it now: A Dimanika cuckoo clock.
Not only does it ring at the wrong time, it also moves around your house and changes color and appearance :D
Not to mention eat all your food and wake you up at night :mwaha
And keep you up too *blush*
Depends on the type of cubi I guess.
However can we rerail this thread? or has it been derailed past the event horizon?
How about a derailing rerail?
What if a sentient machine entity like say one of Jyrra's offspring were to start eating souls (personally I'm not sure the little one hasn't) could it become a cubi?
Quote from: nevwyn on January 24, 2012, 09:51:17 AM
How about a derailing rerail?
What if a sentient machine entity like say one of Jyrra's offspring were to start eating souls (personally I'm not sure the little one hasn't) could it become a cubi?
It would become a soul-powered machine.
Quote from: nevwyn on January 24, 2012, 09:51:17 AM
How about a derailing rerail?
What if a sentient machine entity like say one of Jyrra's offspring were to start eating souls (personally I'm not sure the little one hasn't) could it become a cubi?
Soul eating isn't a Cubi-only practice. The dragon (forgot it's name) Cyra killed used the souls of his city to make himself stronger.
I also suspect that some demons (maybe vampires when they existed) did the same.
Soul stealing/eating is a trained ability moreso than an innate one. Even beings could theoretically do it, odds are some have and do. It's more a situation that during the Dragon-Cubi war, one of the big things that really hit the Cubi hard was a subversive propoganda that painted the entire race as soul-eaters who do such practices willy-nilly. It's a stigma that still lingers.
Quote from: BirdmanGA on January 20, 2012, 05:26:38 PM
Question, if instead of the cubi shapeshifting into a machine, he or she changed their wings to hold the components like the mounting bracket for different gear locations. While that's not becoming a machine, it is holding one together.
While that might be theoretically possible, it also sounds like it would be phenomenally uncomfortable to keep up for a long period of time. It would be much easier I'd imagine to shapeshift into the APPEARANCE of such an apparatus than to even just hold it together. Only downside of course is that the rest of the cubi (organs and whatnot) would have to fit somewhere so you'd end up with a clock that has internal clockwork of oh hey it's a person in there!
Anyway, what I wonder now is if cubi can morph AWAY limbs (which shouldn't be too hard since they disappear their wings all the time) what about morphing extra limbs into existance? Is there anything stopping your generic cubi from just pretending to be a triwing aside from the sheer suicidalness of impersonating people that can and likely WILL eat your soul for doing such a pretend?
Quote from: AmberCross on January 26, 2012, 05:09:10 PM
Anyway, what I wonder now is if cubi can morph AWAY limbs (which shouldn't be too hard since they disappear their wings all the time) what about morphing extra limbs into existance? Is there anything stopping your generic cubi from just pretending to be a triwing aside from the sheer suicidalness of impersonating people that can and likely WILL eat your soul for doing such a pretend?
I'm not sure they can make themselves 30ft tall easily - I'm not sure how easily they can add mass - but I have a vague memory that adding hip-wings is doable. Though as mentioned, running around going "I'm a tri-wing!" in the present DMFA environment is liable to bring someone or something very nasty down upon you.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 26, 2012, 06:47:36 PM
I'm not sure they can make themselves 30ft tall easily - I'm not sure how easily they can add mass - but I have a vague memory that adding hip-wings is doable. Though as mentioned, running around going "I'm a tri-wing!" in the present DMFA environment is liable to bring someone or something very nasty down upon you.
Hmm, add mass, or lower density?
After all, making themselves denser does seem possible, i saw it somewhere around here/
So.... it is totally doable to pretend you're a triwing by giving yourself extra mass and/or adding hipwings. It's just a bad idea on account of people calling your bluff or attracting the attention of WAY too powerful people who might not take well to you putting up such a facade.
Quote from: AmberCross on January 27, 2012, 12:48:32 AM
So.... it is totally doable to pretend you're a triwing by giving yourself extra mass and/or adding hipwings. It's just a bad idea on account of people calling your bluff or attracting the attention of WAY too powerful people who might not take well to you putting up such a facade.
Pretty much. There's good reason why Cubi prefer to masquerade as beings rather than angels/demons. It's a lot easier to disguise yourself as something weaker and then have the edge when folks underestimate you...than to disguise yourself as something more powerful and then be expected to bite as hard as you bark.
So if shape-changing is all done on the surface rather than changing much internally, I assume Cubi would have nothing to worry about from turning into an animal that normally has lower brain-functions than the average sentient being. Does that mean they could turn physically into, say, livestock animals without changing their internal functions and thought processes? It would probably be too complicated to change your brain anyway, right?
We did see Abel turn into a gryphon in comic #1130 (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1130.php) and I believe they're considered a lower-brain function creature. (though I believe still sentient... just really simple) His thought processes seemed to be fully in tact.
Though by the end of the trip, his wardrobe did not.
Note that Weres can change into a feral animal, though I'm not sure to what extent they retain their intelligence in that mode, and it's likely the transformation mechanism is entirely different.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 27, 2012, 05:30:42 AM
Note that Weres can change into a feral animal, though I'm not sure to what extent they retain their intelligence in that mode, and it's likely the transformation mechanism is entirely different.
As amber said, for the cubi the main difference is Aesthetic, but for the were the difference is Racial (a human were is resistant to magic for example, while a animal were is not)
(sorry for the double post)
Well I'm off to a good start! first thread already in the tearooms! might as well send a few more here :mwaha
I'm just fooling. Anyone up for some tea?
Oh No! Damn I asked Amber a question already answered here, in the tea room no less. welp so much for whatever I was asking for lol
Quote from: Ravenscroft on May 03, 2012, 11:46:26 AM
Oh No! Damn I asked Amber a question already answered here, in the tea room no less. welp so much for whatever I was asking for lol
Heh, a lot of info is actually stored in the tea rooms, you would be surprised...
Quote from: Ravenscroft on May 03, 2012, 11:46:26 AM
Oh No! Damn I asked Amber a question already answered here, in the tea room no less. welp so much for whatever I was asking for lol
Ewww, resurrecting a thread that is many months dead and not even with new and/or relevant discussion. That's a big no-no. Didn't you see the big red warning before you posted and the rules section on this? Tsk tsk tsk. Don't do that again, ok? Else it'll be off with your head and no more tea for you!
And no more tea is a horrible, horrible fate, wouldn't you say?
More to be despised than a second cup of coffee.