7 dead in stabbing spree in downtown Tokyo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080608/ap_on_re_as/japan_stabbing)
Just... wow. This is getting ridiculous. People are becoming more and more violent. Kinda scary... :U
:giggle Although I giggled at the title.
Huh.
And here I thought the Japanese had guns?
Nope, only the self-defense forces and a few law-enforcement agencies get those in Japan. For the most part private citizens can't carry guns.
This just proves that people kill people. They especially target people who can't defend themselves.
More reason why Akihabara sucks ass.
Quote from: Jigsaw Forte on June 08, 2008, 11:02:04 PM
Huh.
And here I thought the Japanese had guns?
Uuuh no. They don't. At all.
Aside from the police and gang members, that is.
But the general population makes do with their knives and box cutters.
well crap, i feel apologetic for the ones who died but at the same time can't stand in wonder that they didn't die because of a mass produced rail gun or a giant mech.
Quote from: Zina on June 08, 2008, 11:47:27 PM
Uuuh no. They don't. At all.
Aside from the police and gang members, that is.
But the general population makes do with their knives and box cutters.
Hmm. Any idea what the laws over there are about carrying edged weapons? As distinct from the laws in the US or the UK or NZ, I mean?
Purely curious; I'm not sure I'd want to head on over there at any point, if only because my interests lie in other areas.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on June 09, 2008, 03:32:13 AM
Quote from: Zina on June 08, 2008, 11:47:27 PM
Uuuh no. They don't. At all.
Aside from the police and gang members, that is.
But the general population makes do with their knives and box cutters.
Hmm. Any idea what the laws over there are about carrying edged weapons? As distinct from the laws in the US or the UK or NZ, I mean?
Purely curious; I'm not sure I'd want to head on over there at any point, if only because my interests lie in other areas.
The law is anything with a blade longer than 6 centimeters cannot be carried around unless you have a good reason. Unless it's something like scissors, in which which case it's 8 centimeters, or something like that. Even then, they need to be concealed.
You may own a sword only if it is registered and it is purely for artistic shake.
If they catch you breaking the law, you can get slapped with a huge fine and jail time.
Fire-arms, however, are just flat out illegal to own.
Interesting. So you'd have to register the sword you're carrying home from the store for your particular chosen martial art before you leave the store, as it were.
Not that that's significantly different to official rules elsewhere, of course.
Thanks, Z. I learned something today. Yay. ;-]
Quote from: Zina on June 08, 2008, 11:47:27 PM
More reason why Akihabara sucks ass.
Quote from: Jigsaw Forte on June 08, 2008, 11:02:04 PM
Huh.
And here I thought the Japanese had guns?
Uuuh no. They don't. At all.
Aside from the police and gang members, that is.
But the general population makes do with their knives and box cutters.
But guns are so much more effective at open boxes than a box cutter.
Frankly, I think it'd be safer for people to carry swords than little knives. At least you can't hide a frigging 3-foot + long sword in your pocket!
And as Sweeny Todd demonstrates, even a teeny blade will do the trick if you know how to use it.
As long as people want to kill people, they'll find a way. Outlawing weapons never stops murders. Just take poisoning for instance. As one who knows something about chemistry, you'd be amazed how many toxins can be made with stuff found everywhere.
We should be happy that at least there is enough morality and social restraint left that not everyone wants to kill everyone else, because it'd be very easy. You can't stop it unless there's a change in the minds of the murderers (or you just kill em off with good ol fashioned lynch mobs! Which are much cheaper! >:3 ) . Even a rock or a pointy stick can be fatal. Then there's glass, hard plastic, lamps, golf clubs, baseball bats...
You get the picture. There will never be a way to stop murder by outlawing weapons. The ones who want to commit crimes will find another way. The only way to really stop it is find the criminals before they can do anything.
Thus, we need more psychic detectives and the Psycorps. :B
...
>:OThat's all I can think of!!! Let's hear YOU come up with a better idea! >:O
I agree with the point that strict weapon rules isn't that much of a help. Since when people who are willingly commiting a crime will bother about how legal is the weapon you're carrying?
In USA it's relatively easy for civilians to legally own large guns, and here in Brasil laws are very strict (at most, only pistols can be legally obtained and only a few people can carry them outside their own houses) while the crime rates in these are opposite to the strictness of weaponry laws.
Unless police goes crazy and start searching for people the very moment they step out of their houses, it doesn't make a difference, as you won't know they have an illegal weapon before they do something even more illegal with the given weapon
While that's true, Japan also has an extremely low crime-rate. Not to say crime doesn't happen in Japan, it obviously does. But when something like this does happen, it's such a shock to the rest of Japan as it is so rare.
Whereas if something like this happened in America, chances are we'd forget about it in a few days, if the rest of America cares at all.
Also, honestly? If the guy had a gun he probably would have done a LOT more damage.
Japan has a low crime rate because their justice system is a travesty tbh
that's a point that puts me in total agreement with neither theory. in a contry where you can have guns, if you point a gun at someone, you're at risk of getting a gun pointed back at you if you get distracted, and in a country that doesn't have guns you decrease the risk of a wacko causing a massive damage when on a rampage
besides, isn't it much harder to something unnoticed on a country with one of the largest demographic densities in the world?
I could be wrong, but I haven't heard a lot of stories that go "So and so went crazy and started shooting people, and then another citizen with a gun showed up and shot him back". Not a whole lot of people are going to go about their day-to-day business with a concealed weapon, "just in case".
And it's no so much a case of us not noticing a crime, but rather that we've become desensitized to it. Whereas crime is relatively low in Japan, the suicide rate is among the highest in the world. People kill themselves IN PUBLIC in Japan on a daily basis. The trains run so efficiently that the only reason a train should suddenly stop for longer than 15 minutes is because someone just jumped in front of the train and they are cleaning the body off the train tracks. It gets to the point where no one is really effected by this anymore, but rather more or less annoyed at the inconvenience. Here, when a crime happens, we notice. We've just become so desensitized to the violence.
wow... i never knew that the suicide rate was so high... at the same time i could see where this could be a shock, i almost fell over when i found out my cousin tried to kill herself. lucky for her she has a good boy friend, the family like him now... I'm still shocked that their crime rate is so low, i'd almost expect it to be higher than most places.
I agree that no matter how strict our weapon laws are, people will still find a way to kill someone. I could probably kill someone 20 different ways with a butter knife alone! It seems no matter what the item is, you can still hurt someone with it.
I actually had the reason of wanting to move to japan being that the crime rate is so low. I was unaware though about their gun laws. Part of me kind of wishes that we would have something like that. But again, no amount of control will ever stop the violence.
Makes me sad.
I could go on a rant about why the suicide rate is so high and what needs to be done to stop it, but...eh.
It's not going to change anything.
Quote from: Zina on June 09, 2008, 04:02:32 AM
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on June 09, 2008, 03:32:13 AM
Quote from: Zina on June 08, 2008, 11:47:27 PM
Uuuh no. They don't. At all.
Aside from the police and gang members, that is.
But the general population makes do with their knives and box cutters.
Hmm. Any idea what the laws over there are about carrying edged weapons? As distinct from the laws in the US or the UK or NZ, I mean?
Purely curious; I'm not sure I'd want to head on over there at any point, if only because my interests lie in other areas.
The law is anything with a blade longer than 6 centimeters cannot be carried around unless you have a good reason. Unless it's something like scissors, in which which case it's 8 centimeters, or something like that. Even then, they need to be concealed.
You may own a sword only if it is registered and it is purely for artistic shake.
If they catch you breaking the law, you can get slapped with a huge fine and jail time.
Fire-arms, however, are just flat out illegal to own.
HELLO! CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY WEAPONS LAWS! :B
Of course they don't. That's why they're criminals.
But, again, I must point out the fact that the crime-rate in Japan is very VERY low. So although Japan is far from a perfect country, they must be doing something right in that regard.
It's fairly simple.
If you commit a crime, what is the expectation that you'll be caught?
In Japan, it's reasonable to assume that you WILL be caught, so only the insane attempt it.
In the UK, it's reasonable to presume that you can get away with it. Less than half the time, you'll be wrong, but if you're reasonable sane about it, you'll be ok. So crime goes on...
Similarly in the US, I expect.
And that is why I think the cops should be able to shoot on sight when a suspect runs. And none of that stupid 'shoot to wound' crap. 100 bullets at least! Head shot if possible! Oooo... and they should get a score card for prizes for the most head shots in a year!
*gleefully revels in evil mascinations* :boogie
Go with the assumption, 'he wouldn't be running if he were innocent!'
And that takes care o' that! *wipes hands diligently*
There's just one problem; it's a little difficult to ask him why he was running after he's dead...
while it's a fact that a murdered won't really bother breaking one more law. it remains that being illegal, added to the fact that's really hard to hide something on the country with one of the highest demographic densities in the world, will make guns VERY hard to find and likely very expensive as hell, so it's rather unlikely someone in the urge to kill people will go through the trouble of getting a gun.
so yeah, while i'm not wooty about disarming laws, in this case, it works to a degree
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on June 10, 2008, 08:44:39 AM
There's just one problem; it's a little difficult to ask him why he was running after he's dead...
They'd also have to worry about this guy. (http://www.xkcd.com/53/)
Okay, time for relevance. It's quite sad that the title elicited for me an image of 8-Bit Theater's Black Mage rampaging through downtown Tokyo.
Edit:
Fixed your link.
-- llearch
Quote from: Zina on June 09, 2008, 04:48:10 PM
And it's no so much a case of us not noticing a crime, but rather that we've become desensitized to it. Whereas crime is relatively low in Japan, the suicide rate is among the highest in the world. People kill themselves IN PUBLIC in Japan on a daily basis. The trains run so efficiently that the only reason a train should suddenly stop for longer than 15 minutes is because someone just jumped in front of the train and they are cleaning the body off the train tracks. It gets to the point where no one is really effected by this anymore, but rather more or less annoyed at the inconvenience. Here, when a crime happens, we notice. We've just become so desensitized to the violence.
I'm fairly surprised by this information. I never knew that the suicide rates in Japan were so high. That's almost depressing, because suicides make me sad. :< Personally, I don't want to move to Japan, though (unlike some artists I know). I'd rather live in Germany or Sweden, but they probably have their own slew of problems.
But on the relevant topic, this is extremely depressing. They mentioned Japan's low crime rate in the news article I read about the subject - but it feels like this kind of shit can happen anywhere. Stabbing sprees... that's the kind of stuff you'd almost expect out of a horror movie. Personally, I'm going to avoid the current debate on weapon possession and its affect on crime. I feel as though my opinion on the subject isn't strong enough.
~Keaton the Black Jackal
Quote from: Alondro on June 10, 2008, 07:56:57 AM
And that is why I think the cops should be able to shoot on sight when a suspect runs. And none of that stupid 'shoot to wound' crap. 100 bullets at least! Head shot if possible! Oooo... and they should get a score card for prizes for the most head shots in a year!
*gleefully revels in evil mascinations* :boogie
Go with the assumption, 'he wouldn't be running if he were innocent!'
And that takes care o' that! *wipes hands diligently*
Ah...you've never heard of the Sean Bell case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell) then, have you?
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on June 10, 2008, 04:41:08 AM
It's fairly simple.
If you commit a crime, what is the expectation that you'll be caught?
In Japan, it's reasonable to assume that you WILL be caught, so only the insane attempt it.
In the UK, it's reasonable to presume that you can get away with it. Less than half the time, you'll be wrong, but if you're reasonable sane about it, you'll be ok. So crime goes on...
Similarly in the US, I expect.
Actually, the ability to get away in the U.S. is greater due to larger land mass. I mean, Lets face it. The U.K. and Japan are a series of islands. They're not exactly prone to having large chunks of uninhabited land that criminals can hide in indefinitely until the heat dies down.
Let us also note that the land constrictions are slightly negated by the idea of appeasement set in the U.K. Namely that the person getting robbed is not supposed to resist the robber and wait for the police muddle it out. And if they DO resist the U.K. throws the victim in jail and the robber promptly heads to the victims house for a little burglary in addition what ever restitution's he gets from the trial of the victim for "being aggravated/assaulted/wounded."
Scary, but it has happened. Especially if a firearm was used to deter the criminal, because guns certainly aren't just mindless tools like axes.
Japan is not what people think it is... it is far worse.
Zina: I would actually be interested in your thoughts about Japanese suicide. It may not change anything, but you'd be informing people about another culture and increasing their knowledge and understanding of other people in the world.
Personally, I don't think I could stand life in Japan. It seems to be a work, work, work, cog in machine sort of culture, and call me Irish, but I think there are more important things in life.
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on June 10, 2008, 08:44:39 AM
There's just one problem; it's a little difficult to ask him why he was running after he's dead...
Precisely. >:3
Quote from: Alondro on June 11, 2008, 08:58:38 AM
Quote from: llearch n'n'daCorna on June 10, 2008, 08:44:39 AM
There's just one problem; it's a little difficult to ask him why he was running after he's dead...
Precisely. >:3
"If we had the death penalty, this problem wouldn't have happened."
The above quote, or something like was uttered by one of our (apparently more psychotic) MPs in relation to the
Birmingham Six (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six) (who were falsely convicted of terrorism).
Quote from: Sofox on June 11, 2008, 08:00:56 AM
Zina: I would actually be interested in your thoughts about Japanese suicide. It may not change anything, but you'd be informing people about another culture and increasing their knowledge and understanding of other people in the world.
Personally, I don't think I could stand life in Japan. It seems to be a work, work, work, cog in machine sort of culture, and call me Irish, but I think there are more important things in life.
There's not really one source you can point to for the suicide issue in Japan, but a bunch of different sources. I'll try to hit on some of the bigger problems.
1) Pressure and stress. There is an alarmingly high teen suicide rate. This is mostly due to the fact that the Japanese society puts on unbelievable amount of pressure on kids to do well in school, starting when they are in middle school. Unlike America, in Japan you need to take entrance exams to get into High school. If you don't get into a good High School, then you wont get into a good College. Fail to get into a good College, then you will not get a good job, and then what good are you? Japan is all about the group, and not the individual. If you are not a productive member of society, then you are worthless and others look down on you. Want to be an artist or a musician? Unless you are famous, you are the dregs of society. This is hammered into the kids minds, and they spend nights studying, going to night school and basically throwing out any sort of social life they might have just so they can do well on their exams. It's understandable that some kids just can't take the pressure.
2) Bullying. Bullying is a MAJOR problem in Japan. And it's not really a physical thing, like here, but a psychological thing, which in the long run, is much much worse. Kids have killed themselves because they were teased relentlessly for being fat, ugly, stupid, smart or shy. Parents don't realize how bad it is because these kids are usually too embarrassed to tell them, and teachers wont do anything, even if they SEE it happening in front of them. Japan has only recently begun to crack down on this problem and telling teachers they NEED to do something if they see a kid getting bullied.
3) Culture. This is a lot trickier to explain. In Japanese culture, suicide isn't considered that bad, but rather a noble thing. In the past, Samurai's and other great warriors would commit suicide rather than admit defeat or fail their lord. Suicide was glorified and thought as the honorable thing to do, and that notion has been carried into modern day Japan. To kill yourself rather than shame your family with your failure is, according to society, an acceptable option.
Whereas here in the west, we view suicide as a very negative thing. It's a cowardly and selfish thing to do, or, in some religions, a sin. I admit I have a very hard time viewing suicide as noble.
4) Economy. The economy in Japan is doing really poorly. Several years ago, if you got a job, you had that job for life. Unless you did something HORRIBLE, you would not be fired from that job. EVER. Until you retired, that is. So all the pressure of getting into a good college eventually paid off, because you got a good job that you would never have to worry about losing. Now, with the economy the way it is, people are finding themselves without work or getting fired. So now you have a bunch of salarymen who just spent a good portion of their lives going through hell just so they can get this nice job, and suddenly they don't have it anymore and can't find other work that pays well.
So basically, these aren't things that can be changed over night, much less in a life-time. They are things that are so ingrained into the culture and society, that you'll need to take some extreme measures into order to "Fix" the problem. And even then I doubt the problem will go away.
Japan can be a wonderful and beautiful place, but like any country, it has its share of problems. I doubt I could have handled it either if I grew up there.
I wonder what the Yakuza have to say about all this?
The Yakuza are probably one of the reasons that the crime in Japan is so low. The Yakuza, although involved in a lot of illegal activities, are all about honor and do not like people working individually outside of their group. They basically run all of the underground(and some of the mainstream) businesses, and if they catch someone doing something illegal that wasn't OK'd through them(importing and selling drugs, guns, porn, sex, etc), they put a stop to that right quick. In a bit of a messy fashion, admittedly, but they get the job done.
The Yakuza sometimes work with the police, but mostly on their own, and have figured out how to do things within the system, for the most part. And when they're working outside of the system, they know how to keep people quiet. They aren't a group of people you want to get involved in, and the average citizen is scared of them. But they have a lot of control in Japan and I'm not too sure what would happen if they suddenly disappeared.
And they have real bad-ass tattoos.
But I doubt they could do a single thing about the suicide problem.
Quote from: Zina on June 11, 2008, 02:28:43 PM
But I doubt they could do a single thing about the suicide problem.
Except possibly pre-empt it. Which isn't going to help much.
Actually, this has been really interesting. Thanks for telling us about it! I didn't know that the Yakuza were like that- I just assumed that they were like North American gangs.
Quote from: Eibbor_N on June 12, 2008, 04:12:30 AM
Actually, this has been really interesting. Thanks for telling us about it! I didn't know that the Yakuza were like that- I just assumed that they were like North American gangs.
They are, but just make it heavily centralized in one group for the entire nation. Now give them the mental state needed to keep it going(i.e. making it into a corporation). Then you have Yakuza.
Honestly, they're more like the mafia, if anything else.
Japan does have biker gangs and all that, but if they ever want to do anything "big", they need to join the Yakuza.
The reason the Italian mafia was so powerful for so long was that the Italian government was so fractured and corrupt that the mafia actually got things done for the people better than the legitimate government!
My great uncle Marty was the #2 man in the Gambino family in New York and ran the numbers rackets, by the way. He had a hit put on him when he refused to follow the trend of the younger generation of mobsters to get into drugs and prostitution, but he died of a heart attack before they could carry it out.
Our family history is rather colorful. :) My great-great Aunt Marie (now 94!) ws one of the original Rockettes, and has pics of her with quite a few of the old stars. I think even a pic with Frank Sinatra. Erf, I also have to ask who she's related to... one of the big-time old stars. My brother will know all that stuff, he's the family historian. :3
Quote from: Zina on June 08, 2008, 11:47:27 PM
More reason why Akihabara sucks ass.
Quote from: Jigsaw Forte on June 08, 2008, 11:02:04 PM
Huh.
And here I thought the Japanese had guns?
Uuuh no. They don't. At all.
Aside from the police and gang members, that is.
But the general population makes do with their knives and box cutters.
No, a Japanese person can get a license for shotguns and air rifles. Anyone with a (non-air) rifle license before 1971 can keep the rifle, however any descendants must turn over the rifle when he dies.
The Yakuza do have strong honor and very traditional ways, but they too adapt to modern Japan and the global village. This is not to say that the changes are in anyway recent, but have been occurring over time. The Yakuza have multiple philosophies and camps within their structures, but they can be broken out into two groups with a reasonable amount of variance. There are those that embrace westernized views and lean more towards organized crime and competition with the various cultural syndicates and there are those that hold true to the protector of the common person.
Even the Mafia held humble roots as the Sicilian revolutionary army against fascist Italy. They branched into racketeering and other common practices of organized crime when they immigrated to the United States, culminating into the ultimate sin, la druga, through the ambitions of a few, ruthless Italian mobsters and some cunning Jewish entrepreneurs... but I digress...
The Japanese are a complex culture thrust forward at breakneck speed to modernize and become a player in world affairs. Those that orchestrate power in Japan are very ambitious, the common folk have just been pulled along vicariously, placing untold amounts of stress on their cultural identity and values.
Yeah, the Yakuza have offices with plates on their doors that say their a Yakuza. They don't cause much trouble.