I just got done reading the His Dark Materials series which consists of The Golden Compass, The Subtle Knife, and The Amber Spyglass. Many of you may have heard of the anti-Christian themes in it, but it took all the way to the third book to find the one thing. Even then it wasn't just anti-Christian, it was anti-religion. I don't see what all the commotion is myself and I consider myself a Christian myself.
Blame folk who automatically think any reference to religion can ONLY be Christian... never mind that Christianity is to other religions what English is to other languages.
TBH there are some pretty not-subtle reference to the Catholic Church.
not the least of which is the author saying himself that he wrote the books to bash religon
Religions are fine until humans get ahold of them.
The pope hat was supposed to be for a rabbit! Saint Peter was a rabbit! He's a rabbit I tell you! A giant rabbit! :U
Quote from: Jigsaw Forte on March 27, 2008, 08:55:43 PM
Blame folk who automatically think any reference to religion can ONLY be Christian... never mind that Christianity is to other religions what English is to other languages.
Hollywood is probably responsible for a certain amount of that.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HijackedByJesus
Quote from: Alondro on March 27, 2008, 11:46:39 PM
Religions are fine until humans get ahold of them.
I agree with you on that one. No religion is truly rotten; only the people who act provoked by it.
Although the church is corrupt in the series, you have to remember that people don't always carry out God's will in the best of ways. Just look at the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, there are large numbers of poor decisions by the church in history.
Quote from: BillBuckner on March 27, 2008, 10:34:11 PM
TBH there are some pretty not-subtle reference to the Catholic Church.
Yes, thank you. I was young enough to not notice it the first time I read through, but the Amber Spyglass pretty well just threw subtlety out the window.
Why, Pullman? Whyyy?
I adore the series, but I seriously have to blind myself to the allusions.
Quote from: Eibbor_N on March 28, 2008, 09:09:35 PM
Why, Pullman? Whyyy?
I adore the series, but I seriously have to blind myself to the allusions.
Because he deliberately set out to make a sort of anti-Narnia, or so I've heard.
Quote from: Tapewolf on March 29, 2008, 08:21:52 AM
Quote from: Eibbor_N on March 28, 2008, 09:09:35 PM
Why, Pullman? Whyyy?
I adore the series, but I seriously have to blind myself to the allusions.
Because he deliberately set out to make a sort of anti-Narnia, or so I've heard.
Pretty much.
QuoteHe has stated a number of times that he wrote His Dark Materials in part to counter the Christian themes and values woven into C.S. Lewis' literary children's classic, The Chronicles of Narnia.
[ Source (http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071124/NEWS10/711240353) ]
Easily one of my favorite book series of all time.
And yeah, the books are anti-organized religion, not necessarily anti-religion, but I'm against all of it, so just ignore me >:3
I don't even think it's as broad as that. The allusion is clearly to the Catholic Church in particular.
Well, then he failed to make an anti-Narnia.
Narnia was far more Protestant. ;)
Quote from: Rakala on March 28, 2008, 09:52:03 AM
Although the church is corrupt in the series, you have to remember that people don't always carry out God's will in the best of ways. Just look at the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, there are large numbers of poor decisions by the church in history.
....The long list of genocides/jihads in the Middle East against a people who refuse to practice genocide. What? If we're going to bash Christianity for things it grew out of, we might as well bash the other religions that still do the same things today.
I tell you a secret I learned from an interesting source(So do your own research before taking my word for it).
Medieval Muslims: Jihadists, wanted the Catholics slaughtered.
Medieval Catholics: Crusaders, wanted the Muslims slaughtered.
Medieval Byzantines: Christian, went to great lengths to avoid fatalities in battle. That includes the guys they were fighting against.(Apperently, when they heard one of their harbors was going to be attacked, they strung a chain across it underwater, so invading boats couldn't cross.) Unfortunately, the Muslims and the Catholics both had to go through Byzantine territory to kill each other, so life kinda sucked for them.
I don't consider the Medieval Catholic church to be a Christian sect by any stretch of the imagination. They were just as bad as, if not worse than, the guys they were fighting against.
Quote from: Volfram on March 30, 2008, 10:09:17 PM
I tell you a secret I learned from an interesting source(So do your own research before taking my word for it).
Muslims: Jihadists and Jihadists supporters, wanted non-Muslims(especially the Jews)/fake Muslims slaughtered.
Medieval Catholics: Crusaders, wanted the Muslims slaughtered and the Jews segregated into ghettos.
Medieval Byzantines: Christian, went to great lengths to avoid fatalities in battle. That includes the guys they were fighting against.(Apperently, when they heard one of their harbors was going to be attacked, they strung a chain across it underwater, so invading boats couldn't cross.) Unfortunately, the Muslims and the Catholics both had to go through Byzantine territory to kill each other, so life kinda sucked for them.
I don't consider the Medieval Catholic church to be a Christian sect by any stretch of the imagination. They were just as bad as, if not worse than, the guys they were fighting against.
FIXED! Again, as I said, the Catholic Church grew out of it's oppressive ways (which it had mostly because the Muslims were constantly fighting them and oppressive social structures tend to be the best at fighting.), the Muslims not so much. I also feel compelled to tell you that the Muslims have constantly fought themselves due to the "fake Muslim" part. That's mostly why they haven't been able to establish a working military machine of adequate assault size in the modern day.
Believe it or not, the reason we're not speaking Arabic right now is because the French managed to pull together and stop the Muslim advance through Europe in the very time period you're referencing mostly by being more brutal and militaristic than the Muslims.
So essentially you can't fault the Catholics for the standards of the times, which if they hadn't been as oppressive as they had(with no technological superiority), they would have been obliterated by other religions that were actually willing to commit such atrocities.
Ah, thanks. But yes, there's a reason I specified the Medieval Catholic church. Catholicism underwent a bit of a change around there.
Also glad to hear there's a good reason for villains who fight dirty to end up matched against heroes who fight dirty.
Quote from: Volfram on March 30, 2008, 11:55:27 PM
Also glad to hear there's a good reason for villains who fight dirty to end up matched against heroes who fight dirty.
There really isn't a distinction between "hero" and "villain," especially in that time. They were simply two peoples who were forced to fight to survive. The French because the Muslims were on a rampage and the Muslims because their system relied on constant pillaging in order to sustain their warrior religion.
In the Middle Ages everyone was dirty... literally.
The standards of hygiene were a bit... low.
Hence, the Plague.
It's freakin' PRO-religion. PRO. PRO. PRO!
Read the last god-damned page again and notice all that talk about building the Republic of Heaven based on love.
PRO!!!
Anti-corruption-in-orgainsed-religion-and-misplaced-devotion is NOT, NOT, NOT anti-religion.
Jaysus!
I'm very in favor of organized religion being corrupt and evil! It lets me use them for political gain!
*Charles studies how politicians use religion to gain power... and then decides to do it the right way* :B
Quote from: rabid_fox on March 31, 2008, 08:25:09 PM
It's freakin' PRO-religion. PRO. PRO. PRO!
Read the last god-damned page again and notice all that talk about building the Republic of Heaven based on love.
PRO!!!
Anti-corruption-in-orgainsed-religion-and-misplaced-devotion is NOT, NOT, NOT anti-religion.
Jaysus!
So one single page negates the entire series when the author himself has stated that it was meant to bash religion?
Pullman's given extremely conflicting views on his own works. He's said it's pro-religion, anti-religion, good, bad, plagarised, original...
One of the unifying themes in the three novels, however, one of the driving themes of the whole story is that of personal faith being not only worthwhile, but important - the criticisms Pullman levels at religion are of the same nature that, say, Pratchett addresses in 'Small Gods' (wonderful read, by the way) - that organised religion builds a 'shell' of ritual and the misunderstanding of men around a core of faith, eventually smothering it (and literalised by Pullman in the book. Without giving too much away to anyone who hasn't read it, I'll code this - I'm sure you remember what the arctic fox 'babbled' about).
The novel's are only anti-religion by a VERY narrow definition of 'religion', but are pro-religion in a much wider sense.
Y'know it really doesn't matter. It's a work of fiction. Why take it so seriously? I mean I don't care about the theme as much as the entertainment value of the story.
But "The Da Vinci Code" is 100% fact! :U
The theme is what makes a book more than just words stuck together! It's what makes it worth reading! If you remove the theme, you're going to end up with some something as meaningless as a harlequin romance! Even if the theme is old, overused, trite, or just awful, it is what makes the book!
What on earth would a book be if it didn't mean anything?
YES, I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT READING.
I never said the theme was unimportant. I just said it wasn't my biggestconcern. Sorry if I used poor wording.